Re: Foundation Framework
LC could definitely be extended to do anything. But the team has limited resources and chooses new features carefully depending on a number of factors, and one person's need may not be enough to justify the work. In the spirit of OSS, we now have a way to implement those extensions ourselves. It is more freedom, not less. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On January 4, 2017 2:16:56 AM Richmond Mathewson wrote: Thank you for a very clear explanation which improved the taste of my breakfast no end. Although . . . it still doesn't quite explain why we need LCB to do some "heavy lifting": why can LC not be extended to encompass that? Richmond. On 1/3/17 11:40 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote: On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve certain things. No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++, they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more. None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the underlying code. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
Thank you for a very clear explanation which improved the taste of my breakfast no end. Although . . . it still doesn't quite explain why we need LCB to do some "heavy lifting": why can LC not be extended to encompass that? Richmond. On 1/3/17 11:40 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote: On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve certain things. No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++, they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more. None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the underlying code. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
On 1/3/17 4:32 PM, hh wrote: And that's why we need a lot of typical and good examples for those who wish to use it (JLG:) "without understanding a single line of the underlying code". But if it is as with until now shared widgets, then there will be again less than 64 ... True, and I did take a look at LCB briefly. I did part of the tutorial and realized my brain doesn't work that way yet. It would take a lot of experimentation and practice to use it, which I don't have time for with my current work load, so I left my tutorial files on the desktop where they still reside. Some day I will look again. I've been thinking in x-talk for 30 years and it is hard to think any other way. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
The big problem since several months: A lot of people are speaking about what may be done, may be soon. Not about what can be done, showing working examples. All 'examples' listed in this thread need LCB and most of them especially a FFI that may be available, may be soon, may be for java only. Then comes C, may be. I don't mind, I know both, halfway, good enough for using available libraries/frameworks. But then a *repeated* decision for developers arises: > JLG wrote: > For those who know or don't mind learning C or its variants, > they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more. That's a good point -- the more "foreign" code one has to do. And that's why we need a lot of typical and good examples for those who wish to use it (JLG:) "without understanding a single line of the underlying code". But if it is as with until now shared widgets, then there will be again less than 64 ... > Richmond M. wrote: > > I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode > > if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to > > leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve > > certain things. > > Jaqueline L.G. wrote: > No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands > that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++, > they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the > requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its > variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more. > None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those > things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't > any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and > which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the > underlying code. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve certain things. No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++, they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more. None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the underlying code. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:51 AM JB wrote: > > > L>llLearning C will help even if for some reason > With apologies that Twain . . . *learning* C is easy--I've done it dozens of times. *remembering* it a few weeks after the project is another story .. . ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
Richmond, don't make me pull out my "LC is like a constructor set" analogy again!!! Bob S On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:54 , Richmond Mathewson mailto:richmondmathew...@gmail.com>> wrote: This whole thing looks like an awful sort of confession of "F". ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
If you knew even the basics of C you could write widgets that could do things you presently cannot do in LC. At least that is what I think they are saying. An example? A really robust SMTP module, that knows how to work with modern encryption. This is not trivial, but thankfully, there are libraries and API's that are already written to do most of the heavy lifting. Another might be writing a REAL progress dialog which ran in it's own thread. Or how about something that handles a graphics animation for a game? Or was able to interact with another program like Adobe Acrobat via the Javascript API, something that cannot be done presently without some API's in place. Bob S On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:19 , hh mailto:h...@hyperhh.de>> wrote: You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand the purpose of this thread: Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB. So could you please give us one simple example of what you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC only). Thanks. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
This whole thing looks like an awful sort of confession of "F". If LiveCode is what it should be (a comprehensive programming package) it should not have to rely on users' knowledge of other programming languages to achieve some of the things it should be perfectly capable of doing inwith itself. I, for one, have ONLY worked with LiveCode and its predecessors (HyperCard and so on, side trip to ToolBook) for about 23 years (well; aberrational "romance" with Visual Basic 6 owing to MA requirements: probably like committing adultery: you suddenly realise what a fool you've been and where your true loyalties lie). In fact I haven't really done much "elsewhere" since PASCAL 5 (1984) for the plain and simple reason that LiveCode has been pushed as a complete and comprehensive programming package. So, by doing "this" we are now being told it is not a complete and comprehensive programming package. Well, all I can say is "Thank b*gg*ry my requirements are limited to what LC can provide currently" (well, at the moment). Frankly the thought of having to go and learn C/C++/C#/ObjC? and so on fills me with dread: not because I'm stupid and can't, nor because I'm lazy and can't be bothered: but because I have invested all my spare time (ask my wife about THAT topic) in learning LiveCode, and don't simply have the time to start learning another 4 or 5 programming languages. I am, at the moment, learning Scratch because I have had requests from about 2 dozen parents to teach their children that this Summer: this is hardly time-consuming as it is, strictly speaking, a Mickey-mouse language which one can do things in after about 15 minutes if one has even a very basic grasp of any other programming package. C and C++ are, most definitely, not like Scratch. Even LCB makes me wonder slightly: why should it be necessary to invent a second programming language to write add-ons for the first one? This is like my having to speak in Scots because Bulgarian is somehow incapable of expressing some ideas: which of course is nonsense as Bulgarian is just as good as Scots for expressing everything. I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve certain things. Now, while I am going to continue to promote LiveCode as a very effective teaching and learning tool I am wondering about making a fool of myself continuing to tell all the programmers here in Bulgaria (a major outsourcing place both for the United States and the EU) that LiveCode can do what C++ can do. Especially as 90% of the programmers I am acquainted with (I teach their children English, I get paid by them to translate some programming stuff, I install Linux for them, and so on) think that C++ is the "Bee's Knees". HyperCard began to fall apart when it started having to have to use AppleScript for certain things . . . Richmond. On 1/3/17 9:19 pm, hh wrote: JB wrote: The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation Framework so you can use its power inside of a stack instead of writing extensions. JB wrote also: If you want it all prepackaged ask the Livecode team to use the samples in widgets. They will do what they see is financially beneficial so your money speaks when it comes to changes. You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand the purpose of this thread: Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB. So could you please give us one simple example of what you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC only). Thanks. JB wrote: I did what I could to provide some good examples to help people learn. If you are not making any mistakes then you are not learning anything. If you want it all prepackaged ask the Livecode team to use the samples in widgets. They will do what they see is financially beneficial so your money speaks when it comes to changes. JB On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh wrote: JB wrote: Over a year ago they said Foundation was imported and you can even use pointers. I don’t have anymore info about it. JB, thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation function and a link to a header listing others is here: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232 (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code) But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have in mind. JB wrote: Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having problems with Foundation. Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding C/C++/objC or java may be,
Re: Foundation Framework
>> JB wrote: >> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation >> Framework so you can use its power inside of a >> stack instead of writing extensions. > JB wrote also: > If you want it all prepackaged ask the > Livecode team to use the samples in > widgets. They will do what they see > is financially beneficial so your money > speaks when it comes to changes. You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand the purpose of this thread: Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB. So could you please give us one simple example of what you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC only). Thanks. > JB wrote: > I did what I could to provide some good > examples to help people learn. > > If you are not making any mistakes then > you are not learning anything. > > If you want it all prepackaged ask the > Livecode team to use the samples in > widgets. They will do what they see > is financially beneficial so your money > speaks when it comes to changes. > > JB > > > > On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh wrote: > > > >> JB wrote: > >> Over a year ago they said Foundation was > >> imported and you can even use pointers. I > >> don’t have anymore info about it. > > > > JB, > > thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation > > function and a link to a header listing others is here: > > http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232 > > (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code) > > > > But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have > > in mind. > > > >> JB wrote: > >> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having > >> problems with Foundation. > > > > Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste > > will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding > > C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property, > > for many people a main reason to use LiveCode. > > > > It will be an important community contribution by people like > > you to give us such typical good examples! > > > > hh ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
On Jan 3, 2017, at 07:10 , JB mailto:sund...@pacifier.com>> wrote: I did what I could to provide some good examples to help people learn. If you are not making any mistakes then you are not learning anything. If you are not making any mistakes, it's likely that you don't NEED to learn anything else. :-) Bob S ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
I did what I could to provide some good examples to help people learn. If you are not making any mistakes then you are not learning anything. If you want it all prepackaged ask the Livecode team to use the samples in widgets. They will do what they see is financially beneficial so your money speaks when it comes to changes. JB > On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh wrote: > >> JB wrote: >> Over a year ago they said Foundation was >> imported and you can even use pointers. I >> don’t have anymore info about it. > > JB, > thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation > function and a link to a header listing others is here: > http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232 > (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code) > > But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have > in mind. > >> JB wrote: >> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having >> problems with Foundation. > > Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste > will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding > C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property, > for many people a main reason to use LiveCode. > > It will be an important community contribution by people like > you to give us such typical good examples! > > hh > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
> JB wrote: > Over a year ago they said Foundation was > imported and you can even use pointers. I > don’t have anymore info about it. JB, thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation function and a link to a header listing others is here: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232 (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code) But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have in mind. > JB wrote: > Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having > problems with Foundation. Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property, for many people a main reason to use LiveCode. It will be an important community contribution by people like you to give us such typical good examples! hh ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
Hi, Over a year ago they said Foundation was imported and you can even use pointers. I don’t have anymore info about it. Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having problems with Foundation. I am glad the links work. One day links are there and another they are gone so if you value the code save it while you can. JB > On Jan 3, 2017, at 3:09 AM, hh wrote: > >> JB wrote: >> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation >> Framework so you can use its power inside of a >> stack instead of writing extensions. It will be a >> little slower than an extension but in many cases >> the loss of speed will not be noticeable. > > JB, > > are you speaking about the future, that is LCB via FFI, or > do you already have a non-trivial example for that (and are > willing to share it)? > > hh > > p.s. Your 'tutorial' links are fine, thanks. > >> JB sundown at pacifier.com wrote: >> > >> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation >> Framework so you can use its power inside of a >> stack instead of writing extensions. It will be a >> little slower than an extension but in many cases >> the loss of speed will not be noticeable. >> >> To access all the power of foundation you need to >> know objective-c which is simply improvements >> to the C language. >> >> Everything in the C language is a function. Livecode >> was written in C++ so learning it will help you write >> functions in Livecodde. >> >> Here are two links that will help you; >> 1. One of the best tutorials for C loaded with >> examples. >> http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/ >> 2. Some of the best examples I have seen for >> accessing the power of Foundation. >> https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU >> Happy New Year and Happy Programming! >> JB > > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Foundation Framework
> JB wrote: > The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation > Framework so you can use its power inside of a > stack instead of writing extensions. It will be a > little slower than an extension but in many cases > the loss of speed will not be noticeable. JB, are you speaking about the future, that is LCB via FFI, or do you already have a non-trivial example for that (and are willing to share it)? hh p.s. Your 'tutorial' links are fine, thanks. > JB sundown at pacifier.com wrote: > > The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation > Framework so you can use its power inside of a > stack instead of writing extensions. It will be a > little slower than an extension but in many cases > the loss of speed will not be noticeable. > > To access all the power of foundation you need to > know objective-c which is simply improvements > to the C language. > > Everything in the C language is a function. Livecode > was written in C++ so learning it will help you write > functions in Livecodde. > > Here are two links that will help you; > 1. One of the best tutorials for C loaded with > examples. > http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/ > 2. Some of the best examples I have seen for > accessing the power of Foundation. > https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU > Happy New Year and Happy Programming! > JB ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Foundation Framework
The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation Framework so you can use its power inside of a stack instead of writing extensions. It will be a little slower than an extension but in many cases the loss of speed will not be noticeable. To access all the power of foundation you need to know objective-c which is simply improvements to the C language. Everything in the C language is a function. Livecode was written in C++ so learning it will help you write functions in Livecodde. Here are two links that will help you; 1. One of the best tutorials for C loaded with examples. http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/ 2. Some of the best examples I have seen for accessing the power of Foundation. https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU Happy New Year and Happy Programming! JB 1 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
