Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Might have been a new email client. I dunno. 

Bob S


> On Jan 5, 2017, at 14:23 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> And visible on the list. BTW you *are* using plain text for your email
>> format?
> 
> 
> Yes. I got the memo about 10 years ago.
> 
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> And visible on the list. BTW you *are* using plain text for your email
> format?


Yes. I got the memo about 10 years ago.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

And visible on the list. BTW you *are* using plain text for your email format? 
I have been bounced because I had rich text formatting or HTML or an attachment 
before. Not sure if "hold for moderator" is the same as a bounce tho'. 

Bob S


> On Jan 5, 2017, at 14:18 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Even though I got the 'too many bounces' notification yet again today, I'm
> still subscribed (as of this moment).
> 
> sqb
> 
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Mailman is an active project and seemingly well supported.  Most of the
>> lists I subscribe to use it.
>> 
>> I wonder if upgrading from the v2.1.20 LC Ltd currently uses to the
>> current version 2.1.23 might help?
>> 
>> There's also a version 3.0 available, but I'm not certain when that will
>> be designated as "Stable".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Even though I got the 'too many bounces' notification yet again today, I'm
still subscribed (as of this moment).

sqb

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Mailman is an active project and seemingly well supported.  Most of the
> lists I subscribe to use it.
>
> I wonder if upgrading from the v2.1.20 LC Ltd currently uses to the
> current version 2.1.23 might help?
>
> There's also a version 3.0 available, but I'm not certain when that will
> be designated as "Stable".




--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Stupid Spell Correct!!!

Bob S


On Jan 5, 2017, at 14:05 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
> wrote:

SHH!  Nobody answer!


Just don't call me 'barnyard' please.

--
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mixstream.org


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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> SHH!  Nobody answer!


Just don't call me 'barnyard' please.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

SHH!  Nobody answer!

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> testing.
>
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Heather Laine wrote:
> >
> > > It is possible that the only real solution here is to stop using
> > > Mailman. This could be quite disruptive to all, but is something
> > > we will take under consideration. To be fair, this list has been
> > > running on this software for... 18 years? Its not surprising if
> > > it ultimately reaches end of life as the world moves on.
> >
> > Mailman is an active project and seemingly well supported.  Most of the
> > lists I subscribe to use it.
> >
> > I wonder if upgrading from the v2.1.20 LC Ltd currently uses to the
> > current version 2.1.23 might help?
> >
> > There's also a version 3.0 available, but I'm not certain when that will
> > be designated as "Stable".
> >
> > --
> >  Richard Gaskin
> >  Fourth World Systems
> >  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> >  
> >  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> >
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

testing.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Heather Laine wrote:
>
> > It is possible that the only real solution here is to stop using
> > Mailman. This could be quite disruptive to all, but is something
> > we will take under consideration. To be fair, this list has been
> > running on this software for... 18 years? Its not surprising if
> > it ultimately reaches end of life as the world moves on.
>
> Mailman is an active project and seemingly well supported.  Most of the
> lists I subscribe to use it.
>
> I wonder if upgrading from the v2.1.20 LC Ltd currently uses to the
> current version 2.1.23 might help?
>
> There's also a version 3.0 available, but I'm not certain when that will
> be designated as "Stable".
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Heather Laine wrote:

> It is possible that the only real solution here is to stop using
> Mailman. This could be quite disruptive to all, but is something
> we will take under consideration. To be fair, this list has been
> running on this software for... 18 years? Its not surprising if
> it ultimately reaches end of life as the world moves on.

Mailman is an active project and seemingly well supported.  Most of the 
lists I subscribe to use it.


I wonder if upgrading from the v2.1.20 LC Ltd currently uses to the 
current version 2.1.23 might help?


There's also a version 3.0 available, but I'm not certain when that will 
be designated as "Stable".


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

Folks, I have been monitoring the lists and its bounces for a few weeks. The 
problem does appear to be the notorious DMARC issue, which our list software 
does not deal well with. I have made a change to the way it handles DMARC mail 
which may or may not help with the problem. You can and I'm sure will let me 
know.

It is possible that the only real solution here is to stop using Mailman. This 
could be quite disruptive to all, but is something we will take under 
consideration. To be fair, this list has been running on this software for... 
18 years? Its not surprising if it ultimately reaches end of life as the world 
moves on.

Regards, and a Happy New Year to you all!

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Jan 2017, at 22:30, Mike Bonner  wrote:
> 
> Just got kicked again.  *sigh*  Despite successfully receiving a boatload
> of messages from the list today.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Bob Sneidar 
> wrote:
> 
>> Fair enough, except that list servers are supposed to be configured in
>> such a way so as to get around this. A list server *should* send a separate
>> email to each user in a list, NOT one email to ALL the users in the list.
>> The latter will definitely get "DMARC'd" as spam, especially if the
>> addresses are not in the BCC field. Also, the list server *should* send the
>> emails in a throttled way, so as not to raise any flags.
>> 
>> It may be that gmail has tightened their DMARC rules, and so an adjustment
>> needs to be made in the list server to accomodate them. If this cannot be
>> done, it might be advisable to use a different domain. Mail issues like
>> this are definitely a nuisance, but in the modern age where email accounts
>> are getting compromised, providers are understandably a bit skittish.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 09:08 , J. Landman Gay 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Found this explanation:
>>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-
>> December/080211.html
>>> 
>>> It includes this:
>>> 
>>> Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at
>> aol.com, user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com. user1 at
>> aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to deliver to
>> user2, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we don't
>> talk to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user2 user3 user4 and
>> user5 bounces. Their bounce count is incremented.
>>> 
>>> user2 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to
>> deliver to user1, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead,
>> we don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user1 user3 user4
>> and user5 bounces. Their bounce count is incremented. and so on. Every time
>> somebody from aol sends mail to the list, it bounces for every other aol
>> member on your list. Their bounce counts increase.
>>> 
>>> One day, some message sends some of the bounce counts over the limit
>> mailman has, after which it says -- Too many bounces! I cannot deliver mail
>> to this account! Unsubscribe this person! And, because of the way things
>> have happened you get a triggering message which causes a lot of
>> unsubscribes _from the same site_.
>>> 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Bonner]

Just got kicked again.  *sigh*  Despite successfully receiving a boatload
of messages from the list today.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> Fair enough, except that list servers are supposed to be configured in
> such a way so as to get around this. A list server *should* send a separate
> email to each user in a list, NOT one email to ALL the users in the list.
> The latter will definitely get "DMARC'd" as spam, especially if the
> addresses are not in the BCC field. Also, the list server *should* send the
> emails in a throttled way, so as not to raise any flags.
>
> It may be that gmail has tightened their DMARC rules, and so an adjustment
> needs to be made in the list server to accomodate them. If this cannot be
> done, it might be advisable to use a different domain. Mail issues like
> this are definitely a nuisance, but in the modern age where email accounts
> are getting compromised, providers are understandably a bit skittish.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 2017, at 09:08 , J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:
> >
> > Found this explanation:
> > https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-
> December/080211.html
> >
> > It includes this:
> >
> > Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at
> aol.com, user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com. user1 at
> aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to deliver to
> user2, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we don't
> talk to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user2 user3 user4 and
> user5 bounces. Their bounce count is incremented.
> >
> > user2 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to
> deliver to user1, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead,
> we don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user1 user3 user4
> and user5 bounces. Their bounce count is incremented. and so on. Every time
> somebody from aol sends mail to the list, it bounces for every other aol
> member on your list. Their bounce counts increase.
> >
> > One day, some message sends some of the bounce counts over the limit
> mailman has, after which it says -- Too many bounces! I cannot deliver mail
> to this account! Unsubscribe this person! And, because of the way things
> have happened you get a triggering message which causes a lot of
> unsubscribes _from the same site_.
> >
> > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> > HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[J. Landman Gay]

The limitation goes back to the time when routers cost upwards of $200 and 
hardly anyone had one. Things are getting better now for some manufacturers 
but still not all.


I'm more concerned these days about malware that attacks routers and the 
inability to find out if your current one is vulnerable.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On January 3, 2017 5:42:47 PM Bob Sneidar  wrote:


You may want to spend more than $35 on a router. ;-)

Bob S


On Jan 3, 2017, at 14:54 , J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:


On 1/3/17 3:42 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
My favorite example is wifi routers.  They ship with a default password
and login published in the manual, and more than 75% are never changed.

And almost all the routers I've had over the years won't even *let* you 
change the login name. It's always "admin" and that's it.  Pah.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | 
http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Bob Sneidar]

You may want to spend more than $35 on a router. ;-)

Bob S


On Jan 3, 2017, at 14:54 , J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:

On 1/3/17 3:42 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
My favorite example is wifi routers.  They ship with a default password
and login published in the manual, and more than 75% are never changed.

And almost all the routers I've had over the years won't even *let* you change 
the login name. It's always "admin" and that's it.  Pah.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | 
http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[J. Landman Gay]

On 1/3/17 3:42 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

My favorite example is wifi routers.  They ship with a default password
and login published in the manual, and more than 75% are never changed.


And almost all the routers I've had over the years won't even *let* you 
change the login name. It's always "admin" and that's it.  Pah.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> And redundant backups are just one more vector to your data.

Indeed it is.  The old adage "physical access = root" still applies.

I have a friend I met through my local Linux user group who does 
security audits.  One of the most common sets of problems he finds isn't 
with firewall rules or password policies, but server room doors propped 
open and ancient easily-picked locks.  And more than a few C-suite 
secretaries with their boss' password on a Post-It note on their 
monitor, viewable by anyone who enters the reception area. No, really.



> Really, security has to be balanced with usability. Absolute security
> is to never write, type, speak  or otherwise store any information
> you want to protect, or which might give clues to any information you
> want to protect. This is of course absurd. We sacrifice some degree
> of confidence for some degree of usability. I personally do not do
> bit level encryption because of the reason stated below. It's too
> easy to lose everything. But locking down you information as best you
> can is always wise.

There is currently a spectrum with Usability on one end and Security at 
the other.  Changes favoring one tend to weaken the other.


I like to believe that the next frontier in UX is to make good security 
practices easy.


My favorite example is wifi routers.  They ship with a default password 
and login published in the manual, and more than 75% are never changed.


Some day we'll see a router vendor come up with a really nice solution 
to make updating the password on first-use super-easy.


And the first one to do it will get the lion's share of the market, 
because right now the rest are so cumbersome to set up that few bother.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Rick Harrison]

Hi Bob,

That is both a great and terrible story!
One really can’t make this type of
story up either because it’s too bizarre.

Sorry to hear that it was a true one for you!
Thanks for sharing...

Rick

> On Jan 3, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> And redundant backups are just one more vector to your data. Really, security 
> has to be balanced with usability. Absolute security is to never write, type, 
> speak  or otherwise store any information you want to protect, or which might 
> give clues to any information you want to protect. This is of course absurd. 
> We sacrifice some degree of confidence for some degree of usability. I 
> personally do not do bit level encryption because of the reason stated below. 
> It's too easy to lose everything. But locking down you information as best 
> you can is always wise. 
> 
> By way of example, I took a phone into Apple where I had the fingerprint 
> recognition enabled. The touch screen was intermittent, so I had them replace 
> the touch screen. They did of course, first have me disable the fingerprint 
> recognition, and turn off Find My iPhone. I got the phone back bricked. They 
> had damaged the cable that goes from the security chip to the logic board, 
> and now the phone was impossible to restore. The chip marries itself to the 
> board, and even replacing the cable would not have solved the problem. 
> Otherwise anyone could bypass the security by simply putting a new security 
> chip/cable in the phone. 
> 
> Yes, too much security is a bad, bad, very bad thing. 
> 
> Bob S
> 


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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Richard Gaskin]

Rick Harrison wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Remember that if just one bit/blob on your encrypted hard
> drive becomes unreadable, then you could lose
> everything on that drive.  That makes redundant
> backups over time even more important!

That was why I've been putting it off for so long.  But so far I've had 
such good luck with the encrypted volumes I've been using, and have such 
redundancy to my backups (I live in an earthquake-prone area), that for 
me it's the right time to consider the change.



> Have a great secure NewYear!

Thanks.  And a safe and happy one for you as well.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Bob Sneidar]

And redundant backups are just one more vector to your data. Really, security 
has to be balanced with usability. Absolute security is to never write, type, 
speak  or otherwise store any information you want to protect, or which might 
give clues to any information you want to protect. This is of course absurd. We 
sacrifice some degree of confidence for some degree of usability. I personally 
do not do bit level encryption because of the reason stated below. It's too 
easy to lose everything. But locking down you information as best you can is 
always wise. 

By way of example, I took a phone into Apple where I had the fingerprint 
recognition enabled. The touch screen was intermittent, so I had them replace 
the touch screen. They did of course, first have me disable the fingerprint 
recognition, and turn off Find My iPhone. I got the phone back bricked. They 
had damaged the cable that goes from the security chip to the logic board, and 
now the phone was impossible to restore. The chip marries itself to the board, 
and even replacing the cable would not have solved the problem. Otherwise 
anyone could bypass the security by simply putting a new security chip/cable in 
the phone. 

Yes, too much security is a bad, bad, very bad thing. 

Bob S


> On Jan 3, 2017, at 12:46 , Rick Harrison  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Remember that if just one bit/blob on your encrypted hard
> drive becomes unreadable, then you could lose
> everything on that drive.  That makes redundant
> backups over time even more important!
> 
> Have a great secure NewYear!
> 
> Rick
> 
>> 
>> This year I want to take this further. I just turned off automatic login; 
>> next I'll encrypt my home partition. ...
> 
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Re: Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Rick Harrison]

Hi Richard,

Remember that if just one bit/blob on your encrypted hard
drive becomes unreadable, then you could lose
everything on that drive.  That makes redundant
backups over time even more important!

Have a great secure NewYear!

Rick

> 
> This year I want to take this further. I just turned off automatic login; 
> next I'll encrypt my home partition. ...

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Security in 2017 (was "OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed")

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> DON'T CLICK THE LINK!

Amen, brother. A wise default.  Click nothing in an email unless you're 
certain it is what it claims to be.


This article was eye-opening for me:

  The human attack surface, counting it all up
  Humans have become the primary attack surface for cyber criminals.



...which includes this gem:

"Ninety-one percent of attacks by cyber criminals start through email..."


As app devs we're making ever-fewer solo apps with isolated islands of 
information, increasingly supporting collaboration with client-server 
systems.


Protecting our users' data is of course a priority, but often what's 
more important to the attacker are the passwords and control of the 
server itself.


This requires all of us in this profession to take a fresh look at not 
only each individual part of a system, but the ways they connect to one 
another.


Email plays a central role in much of what we do, and refining our 
practices with how we use it can help mitigate risks to things that may 
not immediately seem related.


Last year I moved my email credentials from the main hard drive to an 
encrypted USB thumb drive. There are tutorials on the web for doing this 
with most email clients.  With that, stealing my laptop doesn't grant 
the thief access to my email; they'd also need to steal my thumb drive, 
and also have the password to that drive.


This year I want to take this further. I just turned off automatic 
login; next I'll encrypt my home partition.  I'm exploring options to 
run browsers exclusively in containers to isolate them beyond their 
sandbox.  I'm upgrading my password hashing and salting.  I'm replacing 
my SSH keys with longer ones.  And I'm reading more about these things 
for new things to add as I go.


Risk can never be eliminated, but it can be mitigated.  And as we've 
seen with the DDoS attack on the east coast in October, and the email 
hacks over the summer, much of the risk we face can be avoided with only 
a little diligence.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar]

Fair enough, except that list servers are supposed to be configured in such a 
way so as to get around this. A list server *should* send a separate email to 
each user in a list, NOT one email to ALL the users in the list. The latter 
will definitely get "DMARC'd" as spam, especially if the addresses are not in 
the BCC field. Also, the list server *should* send the emails in a throttled 
way, so as not to raise any flags. 

It may be that gmail has tightened their DMARC rules, and so an adjustment 
needs to be made in the list server to accomodate them. If this cannot be done, 
it might be advisable to use a different domain. Mail issues like this are 
definitely a nuisance, but in the modern age where email accounts are getting 
compromised, providers are understandably a bit skittish. 

Bob S


> On Jan 3, 2017, at 09:08 , J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> Found this explanation:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080211.html
> 
> It includes this:
> 
> Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at aol.com, 
> user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com. user1 at aol.com 
> posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to deliver to user2, user3, 
> user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we don't talk to you because 
> of our DMARC policy" mail to user2 user3 user4 and user5 bounces. Their 
> bounce count is incremented.
> 
> user2 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to deliver 
> to user1, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we don't talk 
> to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user1 user3 user4 and user5 
> bounces. Their bounce count is incremented. and so on. Every time somebody 
> from aol sends mail to the list, it bounces for every other aol member on 
> your list. Their bounce counts increase.
> 
> One day, some message sends some of the bounce counts over the limit mailman 
> has, after which it says -- Too many bounces! I cannot deliver mail to this 
> account! Unsubscribe this person! And, because of the way things have 
> happened you get a triggering message which causes a lot of unsubscribes 
> _from the same site_.
> 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Ben Rubinstein]

In reply to this

>> On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:

So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are
using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If
there is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since
the drops are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't
think there is much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and
actively rejected by Google filters.


(which I don't have in original form because... I got bounced again just 
before xmas and have only just re-enabled delivery!)


... I have nothing to do with gmail, at least in relation to any accounts that 
runrev or its list software knows about, and I've also been bounced at least 
four times in the last few months.


So I don't think it's a gmail thing specifically.

It is interesting because I've not noticed a similar problem on any non-runrev 
lists I subscribe to (including other mailman ones). And come to think of it, 
I'm not sure that I've been bounced from livecode-dev.


Is it that there is a lot of spam being sent to the list (which most of us 
aren't aware of because our mail services or mail clients sweep it away before 
we could see it)? If so I'd expect to see them in the archives, and a on a 
brief scan for the last couple of months I don't see any.


Presumably the only way to debug this is if Heather can catch some of the 
actual bounces messages from our email servers back to Mailman, to see what 
reasons are stated in those bounces. Or if anyone is still running their own 
mail server (why?) and has the problem perhaps they could check their logs.



On 03/01/2017 16:08, Bob Sneidar wrote:

It is possible that someone's list address got harvested and is being actively 
used for populating spam headers, in which case Google spam filters would have 
no way of discerning that the address or entire server was viable.

Bob S



On Dec 31, 2016, at 11:55 , Richmond Mathewson  
wrote:

Doesn't say much for Google.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:

Really: only 4?

It is a bit farcical.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
months.


So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are using 
gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If there is a way to 
whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the drops are caused by the 
refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there is much that LiveCode can 
do. The list is being sent and actively rejected by Google filters.




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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[J. Landman Gay]

Found this explanation:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080211.html

It includes this:

Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at 
aol.com, user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com. user1 at 
aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to deliver to 
user2, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we don't talk 
to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user2 user3 user4 and user5 
bounces. Their bounce count is incremented.


user2 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list. mailman tries to 
deliver to user1, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com aol says "drop dead, we 
don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy" mail to user1 user3 user4 
and user5 bounces. Their bounce count is incremented. and so on. Every time 
somebody from aol sends mail to the list, it bounces for every other aol 
member on your list. Their bounce counts increase.


One day, some message sends some of the bounce counts over the limit 
mailman has, after which it says -- Too many bounces! I cannot deliver mail 
to this account! Unsubscribe this person! And, because of the way things 
have happened you get a triggering message which causes a lot of 
unsubscribes _from the same site_.


Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[proth...@earthlearningsolutions.org]

Folks,
My Apple mail program lets me see the actual link before I click it, by 
hovering the mouse over the link and examining the destination. I have gotten 
phishing that looks exactly like an email my bank would send. This season I've 
gotten many emails trying to alert me to a package that could not be delivered, 
and saying my server was putting out spam. All of these had attachments with 
malware that would be installed.

It has been a busy season for phishermen and phisherwomen.

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jan 3, 2017, at 8:11 AM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> 
> Concerning getting malware and subsequently getting all your cashed and saved 
> email addresses sent to demonic entities known as "spam houses", I suppose 
> the moral to this story is... DON'T CLICK THE LINK! 
> 
> Unless it's from friends and family, in which case... DON'T CLICK THE LINK! 
> 
> Unless it's from your bank, or a long lost friend in which case... 
> 
> DO!
> 
> NOT!
> 
> CLICK!
> 
> THE!
> 
> LINK
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> 
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar]

Concerning getting malware and subsequently getting all your cashed and saved 
email addresses sent to demonic entities known as "spam houses", I suppose the 
moral to this story is... DON'T CLICK THE LINK! 

Unless it's from friends and family, in which case... DON'T CLICK THE LINK! 

Unless it's from your bank, or a long lost friend in which case... 

DO!

NOT!

CLICK!

THE!

LINK

Bob S



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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Bob Sneidar]

It is possible that someone's list address got harvested and is being actively 
used for populating spam headers, in which case Google spam filters would have 
no way of discerning that the address or entire server was viable. 

Bob S


> On Dec 31, 2016, at 11:55 , Richmond Mathewson  
> wrote:
> 
> Doesn't say much for Google.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>>> Really: only 4?
>>> 
>>> It is a bit farcical.
>>> 
>>> Richmond.
>>> 
>>> On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
 This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
 months.
>> 
>> So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are using 
>> gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If there is a way 
>> to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the drops are caused 
>> by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there is much that 
>> LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively rejected by Google 
>> filters.
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Kerner]

hahahahahahaha that's funny.  You don't get past the level 1, and they are
always throwing it back on the other guy

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:26 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> I assumed Gmail is bouncing emails because the error mailman returns to
> the list member is "too many bounces". It could be something else though.
> Apparently it doesn't happen to all Gmail users, only some, and if I
> remember right, some AOL and Yahoo addresses do the same thing.
>
> It might be useful for an affected member to ask Google support if they
> know why it happens.
>
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
> On December 31, 2016 6:26:47 PM Mike Kerner 
> wrote:
>
> Is gmail actually bouncing them?  I thought that everything suspicious
>> ended up in the spam folder.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 5:54 PM, J. Landman Gay > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> No, not entirely sure, but I've read about it before. Google changes its
>>> algorithms and spam filters frequently, so it's possible they've tweaked
>>> it
>>> again.
>>>
>>> Here's one article I found:
>>> 
>>>
>>> If you google "gmail bounces mailman emails" there are thousands of hits,
>>> some of which are more relevant than others.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/31/16 3:20 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:
>>>
>>> are we sure that is the reason?  This problem is recent.  I've been a
 member of the list with the same gmail address since 2005 without having
 these issues.

 On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
 richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Doesn't say much for Google.

>
> Richmond.
>
> On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
> On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>
>>
>> Really: only 4?
>>
>>>
>>> It is a bit farcical.
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
>>> On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>>>
>>> This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
>>>
 months.


 So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are
>>>
>> using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If
>> there
>> is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the
>> drops
>> are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there
>> is
>> much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively
>> rejected
>> by
>> Google filters.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
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> subscription preferences:
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>
>



>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>>and did a little diving.
>> And God said, "This is good."
>> ___
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>
>
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[J. Landman Gay]

I assumed Gmail is bouncing emails because the error mailman returns to the 
list member is "too many bounces". It could be something else though. 
Apparently it doesn't happen to all Gmail users, only some, and if I 
remember right, some AOL and Yahoo addresses do the same thing.


It might be useful for an affected member to ask Google support if they 
know why it happens.


Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On December 31, 2016 6:26:47 PM Mike Kerner  wrote:


Is gmail actually bouncing them?  I thought that everything suspicious
ended up in the spam folder.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 5:54 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:


No, not entirely sure, but I've read about it before. Google changes its
algorithms and spam filters frequently, so it's possible they've tweaked it
again.

Here's one article I found:


If you google "gmail bounces mailman emails" there are thousands of hits,
some of which are more relevant than others.



On 12/31/16 3:20 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:


are we sure that is the reason?  This problem is recent.  I've been a
member of the list with the same gmail address since 2005 without having
these issues.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Doesn't say much for Google.


Richmond.

On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:


Really: only 4?


It is a bit farcical.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few

months.



So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are

using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If
there
is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the
drops
are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there
is
much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively rejected
by
Google filters.



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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[William Prothero]

FYI:
I am signed on with gmail and am having no problems.
Bill
> On Dec 31, 2016, at 4:24 PM, Mike Kerner  wrote:
> 
> Is gmail actually bouncing them?  I thought that everything suspicious
> ended up in the spam folder.
> 
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 5:54 PM, J. Landman Gay 
> wrote:
> 
>> No, not entirely sure, but I've read about it before. Google changes its
>> algorithms and spam filters frequently, so it's possible they've tweaked it
>> again.
>> 
>> Here's one article I found:
>> 
>> 
>> If you google "gmail bounces mailman emails" there are thousands of hits,
>> some of which are more relevant than others.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/31/16 3:20 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:
>> 
>>> are we sure that is the reason?  This problem is recent.  I've been a
>>> member of the list with the same gmail address since 2005 without having
>>> these issues.
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
>>> richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Doesn't say much for Google.
 
 Richmond.
 
 On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
 
 On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
> 
> Really: only 4?
>> 
>> It is a bit farcical.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>> On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>> 
>> This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
>>> months.
>>> 
>>> 
>> So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are
> using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If
> there
> is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the
> drops
> are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there
> is
> much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively rejected
> by
> Google filters.
> 
> 
> 
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 use-livecode mailing list
 use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
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 subscription preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> ___
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>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Kerner]

Is gmail actually bouncing them?  I thought that everything suspicious
ended up in the spam folder.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 5:54 PM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> No, not entirely sure, but I've read about it before. Google changes its
> algorithms and spam filters frequently, so it's possible they've tweaked it
> again.
>
> Here's one article I found:
> 
>
> If you google "gmail bounces mailman emails" there are thousands of hits,
> some of which are more relevant than others.
>
>
>
> On 12/31/16 3:20 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:
>
>> are we sure that is the reason?  This problem is recent.  I've been a
>> member of the list with the same gmail address since 2005 without having
>> these issues.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
>> richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Doesn't say much for Google.
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
>>> On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:

 Really: only 4?
>
> It is a bit farcical.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>
> This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
>> months.
>>
>>
> So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are
 using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If
 there
 is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the
 drops
 are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there
 is
 much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively rejected
 by
 Google filters.



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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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>



-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:53 AM, J. Landman Gay 
wrote:

> Since the drops are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't
> think there is much that LiveCode can do.


There may be a refusal at the receiving end, but it is the server at
livecode's end that is dropping members from the list.

An easy fix is noting the 99+% false positive on refused messages from
gmail.

For such a domain, simply don't drop, for example, until three failures in
a specified time period.

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Kerner]

are we sure that is the reason?  This problem is recent.  I've been a
member of the list with the same gmail address since 2005 without having
these issues.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Doesn't say much for Google.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>>
>>> Really: only 4?
>>>
>>> It is a bit farcical.
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
>>> On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>>>
 This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
 months.

>>>
>> So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are
>> using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If there
>> is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since the drops
>> are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't think there is
>> much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and actively rejected by
>> Google filters.
>>
>>
>>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>



-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Richmond Mathewson]

Doesn't say much for Google.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 9:53 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:

Really: only 4?

It is a bit farcical.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
months.


So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are 
using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If 
there is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since 
the drops are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't 
think there is much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and 
actively rejected by Google filters.





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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[J. Landman Gay]

On 12/31/16 2:16 AM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:

Really: only 4?

It is a bit farcical.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
months.


So far, at least in this round, the people who have been dropped are 
using gmail addresses. I've read about issues with gmail before. If 
there is a way to whitelist the LiveCode list, that could help. Since 
the drops are caused by the refusal of the receiving domain, I don't 
think there is much that LiveCode can do. The list is being sent and 
actively rejected by Google filters.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Richmond Mathewson]

Really: only 4?

It is a bit farcical.

Richmond.

On 12/31/16 12:48 am, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few months.



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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[William Prothero]

A very popular listserve named “Mailman” does this. It comes with most VPS 
hosting service.
Bill

> On Dec 30, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Mike Kerner  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately several newsgroups I belong to do something like this - and
> the Valentina one, even helpfully sends me an email in the clear once a
> month with my password, no matter what.  Uncool.
> 
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Kay C Lan  wrote:
> 
>> Yes same here, but what is far more concerning to me is that the
>> Notification I get to remedy the situation includes a link to log in
>> AND my password. Is this not a security hole just waiting to be
>> exploited? If I go to the link and I can't remember my password there
>> should be a 'forgot password' link and the usual method of resetting.
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
>>> This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
>> months.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
>>> (702) 508-8462
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Mike Kerner]

Unfortunately several newsgroups I belong to do something like this - and
the Valentina one, even helpfully sends me an email in the clear once a
month with my password, no matter what.  Uncool.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Kay C Lan  wrote:

> Yes same here, but what is far more concerning to me is that the
> Notification I get to remedy the situation includes a link to log in
> AND my password. Is this not a security hole just waiting to be
> exploited? If I go to the link and I can't remember my password there
> should be a 'forgot password' link and the usual method of resetting.
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
> > This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few
> months.
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> > (702) 508-8462
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Kay C Lan]

Yes same here, but what is far more concerning to me is that the
Notification I get to remedy the situation includes a link to log in
AND my password. Is this not a security hole just waiting to be
exploited? If I go to the link and I can't remember my password there
should be a 'forgot password' link and the usual method of resetting.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
> This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few months.
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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OK, the list *really* needs to be fixed

[Dr. Hawkins]

This is about the fourth time I've been unsubscribed in the last few months.

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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