Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Eller wrote:

My point is, there are wanna-be-programmers out there who don't even know
they CAN BE programmers because they think it's too difficult to learn.
You have to get the word out beyond this list.


Indeed, that's exactly what so many of us are doing.

I'm helping to organize three coding events for youth this year at which 
we'll have sessions on LiveCode.


Max Shafer presents LiveCode throughout the year at educational 
conferences, including a very high-level one in our state capital.


Mark Rauterkus just submitted a rather substantial grant proposal for a 
teaching series based around LiveCode.


LLoyd Rieber teaches LC every week, and maintains a very informative 
blog about it.


And then there's the ongoing work of Devin Assay, David Bovill, and so 
many others around the world, all expanding the scope of interest in 
LiveCode.


The most powerful statement anyone here can make for LiveCode is also 
the most self-serving:  ship great software you've made with LiveCode, 
and let folks know how you did it.


It's not like this community or the company is sitting still

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Roger Eller]

Picture this in your minds eye.  An infomercial on TV like we used to see;
a high-energy "Juice-Man" type, doing a demo for the "unwashed-masses".
EVERYONE CAN CODE, the crazy caterpillar-browed man says, and goes on to
show some easy yet beneficial beginners apps.  A website address, a
toll-free number, and "Three easy payments of $__.95" scrolls across the
bottom of the television.

My point is, there are wanna-be-programmers out there who don't even know
they CAN BE programmers because they think it's too difficult to learn.
You have to get the word out beyond this list.

~Roger


On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Erik Beugelaar wrote:
>
> > The suggestion of Alex is a reasonable option for this iOS only
> > deploy problem in my opinion.
> > As long as Apple's Apps Store's Terms of Service (ToS) clashes with
> > the GPL a temporary solution could be a Hosted iOS Builder service.
> > This can be a subscription model ($/year) or you pay per service
> > build ($).
>
> It was less than just two years ago that the company offered pretty much
> exactly that, for $99/yr.
>
> That wasn't so long ago.  Have we all forgotten already?
>
> It if was the magic recipe to solve this problem I would imagine it would
> still be offered today.
>
> But despite the company's willingness to experiment with this pricing
> option so frequently and ardently suggested by some of the folks here, in
> practice it didn't really have much uptake and made no substantial
> contribution to the expenses incurred in delivering LiveCode.
>
> In fact, those of us who've been here a while should be able to recall
> that the company has experimented with a very wide range of pricing and
> packaging options.  Many of those experiments, like the iOS deployment
> option, were the result of conversations here.
>
> It's not like the company hasn't listened.
>
> I believe it's more that the nature of the dev tools game is very
> different from more end-user-facing software markets, and very few members
> of this list have direct experience successfully managing the development
> and publishing of a multi-platform dev tool. So despite the best of
> intentions, the challenge does indeed elude easy answer.
>
> I think it's helpful that we all keep an open mind, community and company
> alike, as we continue to explore new options going forward.
>
> It may well be that there's a magic price/package combo that will make the
> difference.  Clearly no magic recipe has been found thus far.  But for such
> proposals to be seriously considered, it helps that there's at least as
> much research behind them to distinguish them from things already tried.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
>
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Richard Gaskin]

Erik Beugelaar wrote:

> The suggestion of Alex is a reasonable option for this iOS only
> deploy problem in my opinion.
> As long as Apple's Apps Store's Terms of Service (ToS) clashes with
> the GPL a temporary solution could be a Hosted iOS Builder service.
> This can be a subscription model ($/year) or you pay per service
> build ($).

It was less than just two years ago that the company offered pretty much 
exactly that, for $99/yr.


That wasn't so long ago.  Have we all forgotten already?

It if was the magic recipe to solve this problem I would imagine it 
would still be offered today.


But despite the company's willingness to experiment with this pricing 
option so frequently and ardently suggested by some of the folks here, 
in practice it didn't really have much uptake and made no substantial 
contribution to the expenses incurred in delivering LiveCode.


In fact, those of us who've been here a while should be able to recall 
that the company has experimented with a very wide range of pricing and 
packaging options.  Many of those experiments, like the iOS deployment 
option, were the result of conversations here.


It's not like the company hasn't listened.

I believe it's more that the nature of the dev tools game is very 
different from more end-user-facing software markets, and very few 
members of this list have direct experience successfully managing the 
development and publishing of a multi-platform dev tool. So despite the 
best of intentions, the challenge does indeed elude easy answer.


I think it's helpful that we all keep an open mind, community and 
company alike, as we continue to explore new options going forward.


It may well be that there's a magic price/package combo that will make 
the difference.  Clearly no magic recipe has been found thus far.  But 
for such proposals to be seriously considered, it helps that there's at 
least as much research behind them to distinguish them from things 
already tried.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

On 2.05.2016 16:44, John Dixon wrote:

Richmond... my comment was not directed at you...


I didn't think it was: I just couldn't resist having a laugh re the 
"unwashed masses" - lovely turn of phrase!


Richmond.



Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
From: richmondmathew...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:34:43 +0300



On 2.05.2016 15:46, John Dixon wrote:

Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
From: peter.br...@livecode.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:40:32 +0100

On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:

My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
have $999 for any software whatsoever.

Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_
"$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.

Trite comments like this are not about to endear you to the 'unwashed masses' 
of the liveCode tribe...

Hey; watch it: I had a bath just after Christmas!

Nothing is going to endear me except, possibly, the chance to BUY a
version of Livecode that
won't suddenly turn into a pumpkin when the clock strikes twelve, and
certainly not at $999.

Plus, I don't have a set of glass slippers (nor, for that matter, a set
of glass hill-walking boots).

Best, Richmond.




  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett <peter.br...@livecode.com>
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Terence Heaford]

What happens if I splash out 999 and then LC goes belly up?

Does my purchase work forever producing commercial apps or does it revert to 
GPL?

All the best

Terry


> On 2 May 2016, at 14:34, RM  wrote:
> 
> Nothing is going to endear me except, possibly, the chance to BUY a version 
> of Livecode that
> won't suddenly turn into a pumpkin when the clock strikes twelve, and 
> certainly not at $999.

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RE: Standalones on el Capitan?

[John Dixon]

Richmond... my comment was not directed at you...

> Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> From: richmondmathew...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:34:43 +0300
> 
> 
> 
> On 2.05.2016 15:46, John Dixon wrote:
> >
> >> Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
> >> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> From: peter.br...@livecode.com
> >> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:40:32 +0100
> >>
> >> On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:
> >>> My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
> >>> have $999 for any software whatsoever.
> >> Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_
> >> "$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.
> >
> > Trite comments like this are not about to endear you to the 'unwashed 
> > masses' of the liveCode tribe...
> 
> Hey; watch it: I had a bath just after Christmas!
> 
> Nothing is going to endear me except, possibly, the chance to BUY a 
> version of Livecode that
> won't suddenly turn into a pumpkin when the clock strikes twelve, and 
> certainly not at $999.
> 
> Plus, I don't have a set of glass slippers (nor, for that matter, a set 
> of glass hill-walking boots).
> 
> Best, Richmond.
> 
> >
> >
> >>  Peter
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Dr Peter Brett <peter.br...@livecode.com>
> >> LiveCode Open Source Team
> >>
> >> LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

On 2.05.2016 15:46, John Dixon wrote:



Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
From: peter.br...@livecode.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:40:32 +0100

On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:

My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
have $999 for any software whatsoever.

Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_
"$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.


Trite comments like this are not about to endear you to the 'unwashed masses' 
of the liveCode tribe...


Hey; watch it: I had a bath just after Christmas!

Nothing is going to endear me except, possibly, the chance to BUY a 
version of Livecode that
won't suddenly turn into a pumpkin when the clock strikes twelve, and 
certainly not at $999.


Plus, I don't have a set of glass slippers (nor, for that matter, a set 
of glass hill-walking boots).


Best, Richmond.





 Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett <peter.br...@livecode.com>
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

On 2.05.2016 11:40, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:

My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
have $999 for any software whatsoever.


Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the 
_many_ "$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.


   Peter



Quite possibly; but two things stopped me:

1. I don't have $299 per year to "rent" Livecode.

AND I really wonder if I'm the only one "out there" who feels *&^%$ 
about the concept of
"renting" LIvecode for a time-delimited period . . . or is it just that 
a lot of people, who, unlike 'Richmond'

are not prepared to voice their opinions for all sorts of complex reasons?

I have spent my whole life "putting people's backs up" with awkward, 
painful questions.


For years my parents had to put up with school reports that said I was 
"awkward" (that's a polite circumlocution)
and why couldn't I conform? Well, I dunno why (and as my Dad eventually 
admitted when he lost a prestigious job for
being just like me [he inherited that from his son!], but that's 
obviously the way God made me, my karmic path, my genetic

package, call it what you will.

Any way, having put up with "all that shit" from substandard teachers 
[the good teachers fostered my abilities and encouraged me]
and the fact that my Mum was desperately worried about "what the 
neighbours might think" [this mainly when our neighbours consisted
of a flamboyantly camp, gay couple, a bloke who cohabited with 2 women 
simultaneously, and a chap who prided himself
on the fact that he took a different woman to bed everyday of his life], 
when I was 21 I was told by somebody older and wiser than

me "God wants you to be a sore thumb, so do what S/he wants".

2. "offers that LiveCode ran last year" on the 'one blink and you've 
muffed it' princiiple,
I wasn't looking when the thing blinked, because, just then I did not 
require that (had I had the money,

had I had the motivation, had I had all the other factors).

We all live in a world of constantly changing everything; that is 
psychologically bad news, and Livecode/RunRev
does not necessarily have to support the "change under all circumstances 
is good" paradigm - it might find,

oddly enough, by offering a level of stability, it can gain favour . . .

Richmond.

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RE: Standalones on el Capitan?

[John Dixon]

> Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?
> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> From: peter.br...@livecode.com
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:40:32 +0100
> 
> On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:
> > My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
> > have $999 for any software whatsoever.

> Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_ 
> "$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.


Trite comments like this are not about to endear you to the 'unwashed masses' 
of the liveCode tribe...


> 
> Peter
> 
> -- 
> Dr Peter Brett <peter.br...@livecode.com>
> LiveCode Open Source Team
> 
> LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
> 
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Roger Eller]

Must you always take such a snippy tone against your lowly subclass
customer base.  If LC actually cared about hobbyist or education level
customers, that deal would still stand.  Perhaps not publicly, but an
off-list private email surely could be arranged.
On May 2, 2016 4:40 AM, "Peter TB Brett"  wrote:

> On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:
>
>> My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
>> have $999 for any software whatsoever.
>>
>
> Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_
> "$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.
>
>Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>
> LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
>
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/05/2016 09:36, RM wrote:

My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not
have $999 for any software whatsoever.


Maybe you should have purchased a subscription during one of the _many_ 
"$299/year forever" offers that LiveCode ran last year, then.


   Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

Blast, I said I wouldn't write any more: but this one really "takes the 
biscuit".


I don't think this is solely Apple's or Livecode's problem, I think it 
is a general tendency where "programming" (and there is a contentious word)

has polarised into 2 camps:

1. The "Hard Chaps" (at the risk of being extremely sexist) who do 
"real" programming, have hairy chests and look down their patrician
noses at "babies at playtime. They make a living from programming and 
have relatively big bucks to pay for their tools.


2. The "Babies at playtime" who will produce nothing of any value but 
must be given "toys" to play with because occasionally a #1

will emerge from them. They are seen as having no bucks at all.

However, as someone who most definitely falls between those 2 categories 
(I contributed MODEST BUCKS to the Kickstarter, I paid a fair bit
to attend a RunRev conference about 5 years ago), I resent that 
polarisation. I am well aware I am not and probably never will be a 
"Hard Chap"
(and don't really have any ambitions in that direction), but resent the 
implication that because I am not a "Hard Chap" I am a "Baby at play."


Livecode has been seduced by this polarisation (just as it has been 
seduced by monochrome icons; but I digress), and risks losing a large slice

of revenue.

---Tedious personal wibble starts here---

I have a "standard rate" for kids to attend my EFL school.

I have quite a few kids who attend at half that rate.

I have 2 who come FREE of charge.

The ones who come free of charge are the sons of 2 gypsy women who clean 
the streets round our way; they work well,

and they make the full-pay kids jump occasionally.

The ones on half-rate are there because of the plain and unvarnished 
fact that their parent(s) just don't have
the money to stump up the full rate; and I'd far rather have a classroom 
full of half-pay kids that a classroom with
2 full-pay kids rattling around like beans in a tin; and then there's 
the Math(s):


Full pay = 100
Half pay = 50

2 x 100 = 200

6 x 50 = 300

So I win, the half-pay kids win, and everybody gets what they want.

---End of tedious personal wibble-

I started work with Runtime Revolution (as it then was) using the 
10-line-limit version, and then paid for 2 versions of Dreamcard
(remember that one?) and then a commercial version via the Edinburgh 
conference. So that was an upward tendency in terms of

my spending . . .

My spending has now stopped, and will not start again as I simply do not 
have $999 for any software whatsoever.


Now my modest upward spending trend is not unique, nor should it be; it 
may reflect a quite common pattern
But I don't really see many people jumping from "Zero to Hero", FREE to 
$999, in one swift movement.


What Livecode (among very many others) has done is excluded an extremely 
profitable middle.


They have also, as has been pointed out many times, been "pissing about" 
with their costs, marketing model (rent/buy), licensing
and so on to such an extent that it might be unsurprising if quite a few 
people were not "pissed off" by it.


And before everybody jumps, I am aware that RunRev have not been 
"pissing about" from their point of view, they have been
"experimenting with marketing strategies"; but that doesn't stop it 
having a negative effect on a lot of people who might

otherwise be sending them bread and cheese.

There needs to be something that plugs the gap:

1. the "revStudio/revEnterprise" model worked quite well as long as it 
lasted.


Many, many times I have urged this sort of a model . . . .

Richmond.

On 2.05.2016 02:04, Monte Goulding wrote:

On 2 May 2016, at 8:46 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  wrote:

Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” regressive 
point of view that seriously limits the possible future user base. The “middle 
ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is *exploding* faster than 
anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small world wide membership… I 
can’t count how many young boys and girls would jump on LiveCode if I put them 
onto it…

With all due respect what you are complaining about is an Apple problem not a 
LiveCode problem. I actually think Apple’s position on GPL should be tested 
again now that they have free provisioning profiles.

Cheers

Monte
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RE: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Erik Beugelaar]

The suggestion of Alex is a reasonable option for this iOS only deploy problem 
in my opinion.
As long as Apple's Apps Store's Terms of Service (ToS) clashes with the GPL a 
temporary solution could be a Hosted iOS Builder service.
This can be a subscription model ($/year) or you pay per service build ($). 
The technical implementation of such a solution cannot be difficult and it 
would be nice to offer this in the user login section of LiveCode products. 

Just my 2 cents


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Monte Goulding
Sent: maandag 2 mei 2016 07:14
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?


> On 2 May 2016, at 9:23 AM, Alex Tweedly <a...@tweedly.net> wrote:
> 
> For example, would it be possible to create a version of that allows building 
> IOS standalones under commercial license, but nothing else. Then such a User 
> could build IOS standalones (non-GPL), other standalones (under GPL), they 
> could NOT distribute or use encrypted stacks, etc.

To be honest I’m not sure how we got from LiveCode Ltd generously releasing a 
GPL version which gives a huge number of users the opportunity to use the 
platform at no cost to LiveCode Ltd must provide a no/negligible cost option 
for deploying apps everywhere.


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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Monte Goulding]

> On 2 May 2016, at 9:23 AM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:
> 
> For example, would it be possible to create a version of that allows building 
> IOS standalones under commercial license, but nothing else. Then such a User 
> could build IOS standalones (non-GPL), other standalones (under GPL), they 
> could NOT distribute or use encrypted stacks, etc.

To be honest I’m not sure how we got from LiveCode Ltd generously releasing a 
GPL version which gives a huge number of users the opportunity to use the 
platform at no cost to LiveCode Ltd must provide a no/negligible cost option 
for deploying apps everywhere.


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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

From 2013…

http://www.slideshare.net/techahead/html5-vs-native-app-battle-infographics


But still interesting. The “code once run anywhere” vs “Native dev”  is the 
underlying driving force behind HMTL5 app dev. 

So if you can sell LiveCode by marketing that same line… you can target an 
entire segment of users who can’t, or just don’t want to, eat the JS learning 
curve. They either hit the wall 

“too complicated for me!  Days and days to get the smallest thing done!”
OR
“I have better ways to use my brain than labor over JS and this xTalk is just 
too fun/productive…”

I have young people, doing silly things with online tools like “Scratch” and it 
would take very, very little to push them over to LiveCode… once hooked they 
will look at Javascript as arcane and painful.

But if iOS is off the plate. Then that pitch doesn’t work. 

Yes, Monte, that is an “Apple Problem” but we live in a contingent (unless you 
believe Kafka and Sartre, which I don’t)  universe, so… one has to adjust…or 
lose the game.

BR 



On 5/1/16, 2:44 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of EED-wp Email" 
 
wrote:

>Any market researchers out there who could actually begin to answer this? 
>Bill
>
>William Prothero
>http://ed.earthednet.org
>
>> On May 1, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:
>> 
>> No, it's not an Apple problem - they're not losing any money over it, and 
>> they're certainly not losing any sleep over it.
>> 
>> I think it's a Livecode Ltd problem (for the reasons described in the 
>> earlier post), though it is partly caused by Apple.
>> 
>> Yeah. it would be great if Livecode Ltd could use the Community version to 
>> allow folks to publish GPL apps, and it is Apple that prevents them.
>> But I'm sure that's not the only possible solution - and Livecode Ltd should 
>> find, or consider, some of the others.
>> 
>> For example, would it be possible to create a version of that allows 
>> building IOS standalones under commercial license, but nothing else. Then 
>> such a User could build IOS standalones (non-GPL), other standalones (under 
>> GPL), they could NOT distribute or use encrypted stacks, etc.
>> 
>> And if necessary license that version for $5 per year :-)
>> 
>> -- Alex.
>> 
>> 
>> On 02/05/2016 00:04, Monte Goulding wrote:
 On 2 May 2016, at 8:46 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
 wrote:
 
 Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” 
 regressive point of view that seriously limits the possible future user 
 base. The “middle ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is 
 *exploding* faster than anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small 
 world wide membership… I can’t count how many young boys and girls would 
 jump on LiveCode if I put them onto it…
>>> With all due respect what you are complaining about is an Apple problem not 
>>> a LiveCode problem. I actually think Apple’s position on GPL should be 
>>> tested again now that they have free provisioning profiles.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Monte
>>> ___
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
>> 
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[EED-wp Email]

Any market researchers out there who could actually begin to answer this? 
Bill

William Prothero
http://ed.earthednet.org

> On May 1, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:
> 
> No, it's not an Apple problem - they're not losing any money over it, and 
> they're certainly not losing any sleep over it.
> 
> I think it's a Livecode Ltd problem (for the reasons described in the earlier 
> post), though it is partly caused by Apple.
> 
> Yeah. it would be great if Livecode Ltd could use the Community version to 
> allow folks to publish GPL apps, and it is Apple that prevents them.
> But I'm sure that's not the only possible solution - and Livecode Ltd should 
> find, or consider, some of the others.
> 
> For example, would it be possible to create a version of that allows building 
> IOS standalones under commercial license, but nothing else. Then such a User 
> could build IOS standalones (non-GPL), other standalones (under GPL), they 
> could NOT distribute or use encrypted stacks, etc.
> 
> And if necessary license that version for $5 per year :-)
> 
> -- Alex.
> 
> 
> On 02/05/2016 00:04, Monte Goulding wrote:
>>> On 2 May 2016, at 8:46 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” regressive 
>>> point of view that seriously limits the possible future user base. The 
>>> “middle ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is *exploding* 
>>> faster than anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small world wide 
>>> membership… I can’t count how many young boys and girls would jump on 
>>> LiveCode if I put them onto it…
>> With all due respect what you are complaining about is an Apple problem not 
>> a LiveCode problem. I actually think Apple’s position on GPL should be 
>> tested again now that they have free provisioning profiles.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Monte
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Alex Tweedly]

No, it's not an Apple problem - they're not losing any money over it, 
and they're certainly not losing any sleep over it.


I think it's a Livecode Ltd problem (for the reasons described in the 
earlier post), though it is partly caused by Apple.


Yeah. it would be great if Livecode Ltd could use the Community version 
to allow folks to publish GPL apps, and it is Apple that prevents them.
But I'm sure that's not the only possible solution - and Livecode Ltd 
should find, or consider, some of the others.


For example, would it be possible to create a version of that allows 
building IOS standalones under commercial license, but nothing else. 
Then such a User could build IOS standalones (non-GPL), other 
standalones (under GPL), they could NOT distribute or use encrypted 
stacks, etc.


And if necessary license that version for $5 per year :-)

-- Alex.


On 02/05/2016 00:04, Monte Goulding wrote:

On 2 May 2016, at 8:46 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  wrote:

Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” regressive 
point of view that seriously limits the possible future user base. The “middle 
ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is *exploding* faster than 
anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small world wide membership… I 
can’t count how many young boys and girls would jump on LiveCode if I put them 
onto it…

With all due respect what you are complaining about is an Apple problem not a 
LiveCode problem. I actually think Apple’s position on GPL should be tested 
again now that they have free provisioning profiles.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Monte Goulding]

> On 2 May 2016, at 8:46 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” regressive 
> point of view that seriously limits the possible future user base. The 
> “middle ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is *exploding* 
> faster than anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small world wide 
> membership… I can’t count how many young boys and girls would jump on 
> LiveCode if I put them onto it… 

With all due respect what you are complaining about is an Apple problem not a 
LiveCode problem. I actually think Apple’s position on GPL should be tested 
again now that they have free provisioning profiles.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

On 4/30/16, 11:41 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Monte Goulding" 
 wrote:

>In the end you are either making or intending to make money with the platform 
>so $1-2k isn't a deal breaker or you aren't making money so GPL isn't a deal 
>breaker. The middle ground is therefore small and from a cost-benefit 
>perspective may be best squeezed one way of the other.

i’ve tried to stay out of this… as I don’t think anyone is listening… 

Forgive me, Monte.. But I think this is an extremely “blinkered” regressive 
point of view that seriously limits the possible future user base. The “middle 
ground” is not small at all. The digital revolution is *exploding* faster than 
anyone can possibly comprehend. In our very small world wide membership… I 
can’t count how many young boys and girls would jump on LiveCode if I put them 
onto it… 

"In the end you are either making or intending to make money” —  simply not 
true.

There are legions of young hackers and coders who hanker to “make stuff!”  but 
then, it they want to put it on iOS, they have to pay $1K per year?  Android 
only may be an option, but not when other free languages will go anywhere.

I think HQ should have a prominent “Pricing” link on their site and the check 
web stats on “bounces” from that page (people exit the site from that page)…

1) I want an easy fast, up and running language to make cool stuff —> 1 million 
young hackers who will not make a penny, teachers, in house small business “I 
need my own tools” type people (like me) 

2) Livecode looks awesome!

3) ?! $999.00 to make an app? Ouch

Goodbye, 

(young hacker continues searching for a tool that s/he can use/afford…)

Exactly what the pricing model should be… I have no clue. But this new $1K 
model feels sadly like a 200 lb rock tied to a 100lb company and they just 
threw the rock over the edge of the boat. I hope I am wrong.

BR





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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Erik Beugelaar]

My point is only made from the view of the so called "Hobbyist brigade" and
the "Poor boys" who have dreams to buy a house maybe later from the sales
;-)
Btw I have nothing against paying for a licence. I own a team licence of
Appcelerator Studio which costs me  $3.250/year so that is not my point.

Cheers,
Erik

On 14:46, Sun, May 1, 2016 Monte Goulding  wrote:

> Hmm... If you believe in your idea and business plan then make the
> investment just like if you believe the property market will go up then buy
> a house. There's risk in getting out of bed in the morning but it doesn't
> outweigh the benefits ;-)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 1 May 2016, at 10:11 PM, Erik Beugelaar  wrote:
> >
> > I agree but if you have a brilliant idea for an iOS app and you believe
> it
> > will generate money in future you need audiance. And for iOS the only
> > common way is the AppStore to present your app to buy or offer it as free
> > download to turn it later if succesfull in a payed version ot
> subscription
> > model...
>
>
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Monte Goulding]

Hmm... If you believe in your idea and business plan then make the investment 
just like if you believe the property market will go up then buy a house. 
There's risk in getting out of bed in the morning but it doesn't outweigh the 
benefits ;-)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 May 2016, at 10:11 PM, Erik Beugelaar  wrote:
> 
> I agree but if you have a brilliant idea for an iOS app and you believe it
> will generate money in future you need audiance. And for iOS the only
> common way is the AppStore to present your app to buy or offer it as free
> download to turn it later if succesfull in a payed version ot subscription
> model...


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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Erik Beugelaar]

I agree but if you have a brilliant idea for an iOS app and you believe it
will generate money in future you need audiance. And for iOS the only
common way is the AppStore to present your app to buy or offer it as free
download to turn it later if succesfull in a payed version ot subscription
model...

Regards,
Erik

On 11:42, Sun, May 1, 2016 Monte Goulding  wrote:

> I very much doubt the subscription model will go away any time soon. It
> may be constructive to determine a price point that hobby developers
> requiring proprietary distribution might be prepared to pay but I think the
> issue you will bump into is that's a small market so the price point would
> need to be high to justify the work involved in having the extra license.
> In the end you are either making or intending to make money with the
> platform so $1-2k isn't a deal breaker or you aren't making money so GPL
> isn't a deal breaker. The middle ground is therefore small and from a
> cost-benefit perspective may be best squeezed one way of the other.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 1 May 2016, at 5:41 PM, RM  wrote:
> >
> > Please do not mention my roof: I was up there after a few really violent
> April showers messing around with a blow torch
> > on the tar-paper - and I'm scared of heights.
> >
> > Nobody is going to spin me the vast amount required to RENT Livecode
> Commercial.
> >
> > AND I really DON'T want to RENT anything: I want to buy a commercial
> version that will stand me in as good stead as LC 4.5 IS still doing.
> >
> > So, let's turn this from a discussion about Richmond's roof to one about
> > how the Livecode folk imagine they are going to get the "Hobby brigade"
> and the "Poor boys"
> > to buy/rent any type of Livecode other than the Free version at the
> current prices they are
> > asking . . . .
> >
> > Let's also have a "chew" about rental versus ownership.
> >
> > There have been some rumblings, but I don't think this has ever been
> really addressed fully.
> >
> > I wonder if by doing 2 things almost at the same time:
> >
> > 1. Producing an Open Source, Free version.
> >
> > 2. Hiking the price of the commercial version sky-high.
> >
> > Livecode won't end up doing something which they probably did not intend.
> >
> > I thought (and, hey, I've been wrong many times) that they general idea
> > was that developers who might want to protect code developed using the
> Free version
> > might be prepared to buy/rent the protected version.
> >
> > However, a very large number of developers may not be pulling in the
> money at a sufficient rate for the
> > to feel comfortable to shell out the high price of a commercial version.
> >
> > This argument begins to resemble the one I banged on about for ages in
> the DreamCard days . . .
> >
> > Richmond.
> >
> >> On 1.05.2016 06:09, Kay C Lan wrote:
> >> As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about than
> >> just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.
> >>
> >> Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle that
> >> said:
> >>
> >> Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.
> >>
> >> So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly
> over,
> >> the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues to fall
> and
> >> it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to when you fix the
> >> roof.
> >> ___
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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> >
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Monte Goulding]

I very much doubt the subscription model will go away any time soon. It may be 
constructive to determine a price point that hobby developers requiring 
proprietary distribution might be prepared to pay but I think the issue you 
will bump into is that's a small market so the price point would need to be 
high to justify the work involved in having the extra license. In the end you 
are either making or intending to make money with the platform so $1-2k isn't a 
deal breaker or you aren't making money so GPL isn't a deal breaker. The middle 
ground is therefore small and from a cost-benefit perspective may be best 
squeezed one way of the other. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 May 2016, at 5:41 PM, RM  wrote:
> 
> Please do not mention my roof: I was up there after a few really violent 
> April showers messing around with a blow torch
> on the tar-paper - and I'm scared of heights.
> 
> Nobody is going to spin me the vast amount required to RENT Livecode 
> Commercial.
> 
> AND I really DON'T want to RENT anything: I want to buy a commercial version 
> that will stand me in as good stead as LC 4.5 IS still doing.
> 
> So, let's turn this from a discussion about Richmond's roof to one about
> how the Livecode folk imagine they are going to get the "Hobby brigade" and 
> the "Poor boys"
> to buy/rent any type of Livecode other than the Free version at the current 
> prices they are
> asking . . . .
> 
> Let's also have a "chew" about rental versus ownership.
> 
> There have been some rumblings, but I don't think this has ever been really 
> addressed fully.
> 
> I wonder if by doing 2 things almost at the same time:
> 
> 1. Producing an Open Source, Free version.
> 
> 2. Hiking the price of the commercial version sky-high.
> 
> Livecode won't end up doing something which they probably did not intend.
> 
> I thought (and, hey, I've been wrong many times) that they general idea
> was that developers who might want to protect code developed using the Free 
> version
> might be prepared to buy/rent the protected version.
> 
> However, a very large number of developers may not be pulling in the money at 
> a sufficient rate for the
> to feel comfortable to shell out the high price of a commercial version.
> 
> This argument begins to resemble the one I banged on about for ages in the 
> DreamCard days . . .
> 
> Richmond.
> 
>> On 1.05.2016 06:09, Kay C Lan wrote:
>> As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about than
>> just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.
>> 
>> Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle that
>> said:
>> 
>> Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.
>> 
>> So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly over,
>> the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues to fall and
>> it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to when you fix the
>> roof.
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

On 1.05.2016 11:45, Erik Beugelaar wrote:

I have a feeling that this thread will end up in a very long one again...


I suppose it will.

I am not going to write any more on this as my initial message said all 
I have to say on it.


R.



The only point I will make is the fact to deploy only on IOS then $999 is a
lot for the so called "Hobby brigade" or the "Poor boys".

A lot about this issue has already been said on
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=4=26710=141462=licensin
g#p141462

Regards,
Erik

Sent from solidit


  
-Original Message-

From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of RM
Sent: zondag 1 mei 2016 09:41
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

Please do not mention my roof: I was up there after a few really violent
April showers messing around with a blow torch on the tar-paper - and I'm
scared of heights.

Nobody is going to spin me the vast amount required to RENT Livecode
Commercial.

AND I really DON'T want to RENT anything: I want to buy a commercial version
that will stand me in as good stead as LC 4.5 IS still doing.

So, let's turn this from a discussion about Richmond's roof to one about how
the Livecode folk imagine they are going to get the "Hobby brigade"
and the "Poor boys"
to buy/rent any type of Livecode other than the Free version at the current
prices they are asking . . . .

Let's also have a "chew" about rental versus ownership.

There have been some rumblings, but I don't think this has ever been really
addressed fully.

I wonder if by doing 2 things almost at the same time:

1. Producing an Open Source, Free version.

2. Hiking the price of the commercial version sky-high.

Livecode won't end up doing something which they probably did not intend.

I thought (and, hey, I've been wrong many times) that they general idea was
that developers who might want to protect code developed using the Free
version might be prepared to buy/rent the protected version.

However, a very large number of developers may not be pulling in the money
at a sufficient rate for the to feel comfortable to shell out the high price
of a commercial version.

This argument begins to resemble the one I banged on about for ages in the
DreamCard days . . .

Richmond.

On 1.05.2016 06:09, Kay C Lan wrote:

As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about
than just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.

Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle
that
said:

Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.

So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly
over, the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues
to fall and it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to
when you fix the roof.
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RE: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Erik Beugelaar]

I have a feeling that this thread will end up in a very long one again...

The only point I will make is the fact to deploy only on IOS then $999 is a
lot for the so called "Hobby brigade" or the "Poor boys".

A lot about this issue has already been said on
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=4=26710=141462=licensin
g#p141462

Regards,
Erik

Sent from solidit


 
-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of RM
Sent: zondag 1 mei 2016 09:41
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

Please do not mention my roof: I was up there after a few really violent
April showers messing around with a blow torch on the tar-paper - and I'm
scared of heights.

Nobody is going to spin me the vast amount required to RENT Livecode
Commercial.

AND I really DON'T want to RENT anything: I want to buy a commercial version
that will stand me in as good stead as LC 4.5 IS still doing.

So, let's turn this from a discussion about Richmond's roof to one about how
the Livecode folk imagine they are going to get the "Hobby brigade" 
and the "Poor boys"
to buy/rent any type of Livecode other than the Free version at the current
prices they are asking . . . .

Let's also have a "chew" about rental versus ownership.

There have been some rumblings, but I don't think this has ever been really
addressed fully.

I wonder if by doing 2 things almost at the same time:

1. Producing an Open Source, Free version.

2. Hiking the price of the commercial version sky-high.

Livecode won't end up doing something which they probably did not intend.

I thought (and, hey, I've been wrong many times) that they general idea was
that developers who might want to protect code developed using the Free
version might be prepared to buy/rent the protected version.

However, a very large number of developers may not be pulling in the money
at a sufficient rate for the to feel comfortable to shell out the high price
of a commercial version.

This argument begins to resemble the one I banged on about for ages in the
DreamCard days . . .

Richmond.

On 1.05.2016 06:09, Kay C Lan wrote:
> As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about 
> than just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.
>
> Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle 
> that
> said:
>
> Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.
>
> So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly 
> over, the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues 
> to fall and it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to 
> when you fix the roof.
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
subscription preferences:
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

Please do not mention my roof: I was up there after a few really violent 
April showers messing around with a blow torch

on the tar-paper - and I'm scared of heights.

Nobody is going to spin me the vast amount required to RENT Livecode 
Commercial.


AND I really DON'T want to RENT anything: I want to buy a commercial 
version that will stand me in as good stead as LC 4.5 IS still doing.


So, let's turn this from a discussion about Richmond's roof to one about
how the Livecode folk imagine they are going to get the "Hobby brigade" 
and the "Poor boys"
to buy/rent any type of Livecode other than the Free version at the 
current prices they are

asking . . . .

Let's also have a "chew" about rental versus ownership.

There have been some rumblings, but I don't think this has ever been 
really addressed fully.


I wonder if by doing 2 things almost at the same time:

1. Producing an Open Source, Free version.

2. Hiking the price of the commercial version sky-high.

Livecode won't end up doing something which they probably did not intend.

I thought (and, hey, I've been wrong many times) that they general idea
was that developers who might want to protect code developed using the 
Free version

might be prepared to buy/rent the protected version.

However, a very large number of developers may not be pulling in the 
money at a sufficient rate for the

to feel comfortable to shell out the high price of a commercial version.

This argument begins to resemble the one I banged on about for ages in 
the DreamCard days . . .


Richmond.

On 1.05.2016 06:09, Kay C Lan wrote:

As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about than
just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.

Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle that
said:

Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.

So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly over,
the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues to fall and
it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to when you fix the
roof.
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[RM]

On 1.05.2016 00:07, Paul Dupuis wrote:

On 4/30/2016 4:48 PM, RM wrote:

I have just been informed that an end-user is unable to get the Intel
Mac build of my Devawriter Pro
running on el Capitan (Mac OS 10.11).

Currently Devawriter Pro is developed using Livecode 4.5.

I will try this out on my wife's el Capitan MacBook tomorrow.

However, I should be grateful for feedback from other Macintosh users.


I have a very complex standalone built under LiveCode 4.6.4 that runs
fine under El Capitan, but 4.6.4 is ancient and 4.5 even older.




Thank you.

My Dad is ancient and my Mum is even older: it doesn't stop them both
from giving quite a few younger people a run for their money!

Richmond.

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Kay C Lan]

As Richard and Paul have said plus, you've got more to worry about than
just converting numToChar to numToCodePoint as per your other post.

Just minutes ago I received a quote of the day email from my uncle that
said:

Fix the roof whilst the sun is shining.

So to rephrase Richard and Paul: 4.5's sunny days are well and truly over,
the storm clouds are brewing, the barometric pressure continues to fall and
it's already started drizzling! It's your choice as to when you fix the
roof.
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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Paul Dupuis]

On 4/30/2016 4:48 PM, RM wrote:
> I have just been informed that an end-user is unable to get the Intel
> Mac build of my Devawriter Pro
> running on el Capitan (Mac OS 10.11).
>
> Currently Devawriter Pro is developed using Livecode 4.5.
>
> I will try this out on my wife's el Capitan MacBook tomorrow.
>
> However, I should be grateful for feedback from other Macintosh users.
>

I have a very complex standalone built under LiveCode 4.6.4 that runs
fine under El Capitan, but 4.6.4 is ancient and 4.5 even older.

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Re: Standalones on el Capitan?

[Richard Gaskin]

RM wrote:

> I have just been informed that an end-user is unable to get the Intel
> Mac build of my Devawriter Pro
> running on el Capitan (Mac OS 10.11).
>
> Currently Devawriter Pro is developed using Livecode 4.5.

4.5 is like a hundred deprecated APIs ago.

6.x began the road to Cocoa.  Earlier Carbon-based versions are expected 
to break under more current OS X builds as Apple continues their 
long-standing promise to remove support for Carbon as they move forward.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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