Re: [TIC: Tongue in Cheek] Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Mark Wieder wrote: Richard- Thursday, May 15, 2014, 2:34:38 PM, you wrote: On another note, as I promised you last week I did ask Ben if RunRev planned on open-sourcing the On-Rev real-time debugger. He's not sure and will check with Kevin, but he did confirm my hunch that it requires specific sockets open on the server so it won't be useful for anyone on a shared host, only a dedicated server where they can run custom daemons. I'll let you know when I hear back from him on that. Also, he let me know that the developer working on it reports that he's about a week or two away from completion. Nothing set in stone, of course, because it's a busy place there with team members wearing multiple hats, but at the moment things look promising for a rollout of the new On-Rev debugger reasonably soon. sigh (9 months later...) sadly, that seems to have died out. My understanding is that the real-time debugger was reinstated on the On-Rev hosting service some months ago. If you're an On-Rev customer and don't see it available please write On-Rev support to find out when it will be installed on your server. I'd also be interested to know if there are any servers remaining there that don't have it, since I was under the impression it was rolled out service-wide some time ago. As for the open-source version, I spoke with Ben about that a few minutes ago, and he'll check with David there who's been the engineering lead to find out when the source will be posted to GitHub. One thing Ben noted, though, is that the nature of the real-time debugger will be of limited value to most LiveCode Server users, since it requires modifying the Apache environment. This makes it a non-starter for pretty much any shared hosting service, though it should be runnable on a dedicated server or VPS. I'll report back when I hear more on that open source build. -- Richard Gaskin LiveCode Community Manager rich...@livecode.org ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [TIC: Tongue in Cheek] Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Richard- Thursday, May 15, 2014, 2:34:38 PM, you wrote: On another note, as I promised you last week I did ask Ben if RunRev planned on open-sourcing the On-Rev real-time debugger. He's not sure and will check with Kevin, but he did confirm my hunch that it requires specific sockets open on the server so it won't be useful for anyone on a shared host, only a dedicated server where they can run custom daemons. I'll let you know when I hear back from him on that. Also, he let me know that the developer working on it reports that he's about a week or two away from completion. Nothing set in stone, of course, because it's a busy place there with team members wearing multiple hats, but at the moment things look promising for a rollout of the new On-Rev debugger reasonably soon. sigh (9 months later...) sadly, that seems to have died out. -- -Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Let's see - on the DG, Hanson and I had a brief conversation, that was similar to what you were describing to the list, then you tossed FIX: into the mix, so I'm going to have to take a look at, and write a FIX: for DG's For OR/RO, all I can say is whatever. Let's fix the name of RO so it doesn't become another brain fart. It still needs an editorial rudder and that vision thing. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
I don't know whether the Menu Builder falls into the 'IDE oddity' category but it sure it a liability! - Some are born coders, some achieve coding, and some have coding thrust upon them. - William Shakespeare Hugh Senior -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679583.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 16, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: I don't know whether the Menu Builder falls into the 'IDE oddity' category but it sure it a liability! Dave, Anything specific, or do you just find it confusing in general? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Hi Devin Sorry to be vague, didn't think I needed to say how unreliable it the menu tool is - it has bitten me in the past and plenty of others too. What usually happens is that you set up your menus and then when you reopen the stack half of the entries will have vanished, or some will be disabled and others not. It doesn't happen every time but often enough that I don't trust it at all and I build menus by script now as I'm so fed up with it. Similar to the Geometry Manager in that if it did what it was supposed in a reliable fashion it would be fine (if limited) - the fact is that it and the Menu Builder are not to be relied on (imo obviously) end of rant Dave - Some are born coders, some achieve coding, and some have coding thrust upon them. - William Shakespeare Hugh Senior -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679586.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
How so? I use menu builder as a quick way to block out menus and haven't had any trouble (except for the versions with a bug that got fixed.) It does need updating to include the new tag features though. Do you mean the interface isn't clear? On May 16, 2014 10:12:07 AM CDT, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: I don't know whether the Menu Builder falls into the 'IDE oddity' category but it sure it a liability! -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 16, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: Hi Devin Sorry to be vague, didn't think I needed to say how unreliable it the menu tool is - it has bitten me in the past and plenty of others too. What usually happens is that you set up your menus and then when you reopen the stack half of the entries will have vanished, or some will be disabled and others not. It doesn't happen every time but often enough that I don't trust it at all and I build menus by script now as I'm so fed up with it. Similar to the Geometry Manager in that if it did what it was supposed in a reliable fashion it would be fine (if limited) - the fact is that it and the Menu Builder are not to be relied on (imo obviously) Wow, I had no idea some folks were having problems like this with the Menu Builder. I have always found it solid and reliable. (My experience with the Geo Manager, however, has been similar to yours.) So really, this is a case not so much of an interface design problem, but of a component that doesn't always work as advertised. It might not belong on my list then, but definitely worth taking a look at at a utility that needs troubleshooting. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
I wonder if you're talking about the two versions of LiveCode that had a bug. It chopped off half of every menu template script. That's been fixed now. On May 16, 2014 11:16:46 AM CDT, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: Hi Devin Sorry to be vague, didn't think I needed to say how unreliable it the menu tool is - it has bitten me in the past and plenty of others too. What usually happens is that you set up your menus and then when you reopen the stack half of the entries will have vanished, or some will be disabled and others not. It doesn't happen every time but often enough that I don't trust it at all and I build menus by script now as I'm so fed up with it. Similar to the Geometry Manager in that if it did what it was supposed in a reliable fashion it would be fine (if limited) - the fact is that it and the Menu Builder are not to be relied on (imo obviously) end of rant Dave - Some are born coders, some achieve coding, and some have coding thrust upon them. - William Shakespeare Hugh Senior -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679586.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
J. Landman Gay wrote: I wonder if you're talking about the two versions of LiveCode that had a bug. It chopped off half of every menu template script. That's been fixed now. When discussing things that don't work it's VERY helpful to note the bug report number. If a bug hasn't yet been filed, please create one with your reproducible recipe. If you have difficulty finding a recipe, let's work together to find one here. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/FourthWorldSys ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
I don't use the Menu Builder much, but I use the Geometry Manager on a regular basis, and I've found it to be reliable. I only wish I could use it on mobile. Because I can't, I've written a lot of my own geometry management scripts. In general, the better feature parity we have across all platforms, the better. Not just to be friendlier to newbies, but for everyone. - Charles On 16 May 2014, at 11:30 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Wow, I had no idea some folks were having problems like this with the Menu Builder. I have always found it solid and reliable. (My experience with the Geo Manager, however, has been similar to yours.) -- Charles E. Buchwald CEO/Director General Museografica Digital http://digital.museografica.com LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca/developer-tools/ Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 16, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.ca wrote: I don't use the Menu Builder much, but I use the Geometry Manager on a regular basis, and I've found it to be reliable. I only wish I could use it on mobile. Because I can't, I've written a lot of my own geometry management scripts. In general, the better feature parity we have across all platforms, the better. Not just to be friendlier to newbies, but for everyone. - Charles It's reliable for me as long as my card layout is fairly simple. The more complicated the layout becomes, the harder it is to get the geometry manager to adjust the layout to what you want on resizeStack. So the problem may be more one of robustness and scalability than outright bugginess. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Geometry Manager would be even more useful on mobile since MG doesn't support screen rotation any more. I don't know if Scott is thinking about adding that feature to tmC. I think the menu builder is flat-out weak. It isn't buggy for me, it just isn't very helpful. I guess it's good that I am building (almost) everything for mobile, now. On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: On May 16, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.ca wrote: I don't use the Menu Builder much, but I use the Geometry Manager on a regular basis, and I've found it to be reliable. I only wish I could use it on mobile. Because I can't, I've written a lot of my own geometry management scripts. In general, the better feature parity we have across all platforms, the better. Not just to be friendlier to newbies, but for everyone. - Charles It's reliable for me as long as my card layout is fairly simple. The more complicated the layout becomes, the harder it is to get the geometry manager to adjust the layout to what you want on resizeStack. So the problem may be more one of robustness and scalability than outright bugginess. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Devin I think you are correct - it's buggy rather than an example of weird interface design and shouldn't appear on this list. And for those of you who have never been snagged by Menu Builder this thread gives examples of the kind of things it can do: http://forums.runrev.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=18547hilit=menu+builder Devin Asay wrote Wow, I had no idea some folks were having problems like this with the Menu Builder. I have always found it solid and reliable. (My experience with the Geo Manager, however, has been similar to yours.) So really, this is a case not so much of an interface design problem, but of a component that doesn't always work as advertised. It might not belong on my list then, but definitely worth taking a look at at a utility that needs troubleshooting. - Some are born coders, some achieve coding, and some have coding thrust upon them. - William Shakespeare Hugh Senior -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679608.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
I've never seen any of those things either, but since so many others have, I wonder if there actually might be a problem with the interface. I'd like to be a fly on the wall and watch people use it. On May 16, 2014 5:44:20 PM CDT, Dave Kilroy d...@applicationinsight.com wrote: Devin I think you are correct - it's buggy rather than an example of weird interface design and shouldn't appear on this list. And for those of you who have never been snagged by Menu Builder this thread gives examples of the kind of things it can do: http://forums.runrev.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=18547hilit=menu+builder -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Devin- The contextual menu that pops up when you right-click on a control is different from the one that pops up when you right-click a stack, which is different from the one that pops up in the Application Browser, which is different from the one that pops up in the Project Browser. Drives. Me. Crazy. Why are Edit Script and Property Inspector swapped? Why can you Cut/Copy/Paste a control but not a card? Why is copying a card so hard? The Property Inspector changes size depending on what you're looking at. Why do I have to bring up the Property Inspector at all (and then change the context to Contents) in order to change the text of a label (or other) field? Yes, I made a plugin (as have we all) that lets me double-click a label field to edit the text, but why should I have to do that? I always get the Size and Position scale arrows wrong on the Property Inspector. I keep expecting the uparrow to increase the value, no matter how much experience I get fiddling with it. -- -Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Try resizing something, or using the alignment tools. I just ran into this, again, this week, when I was trying to fix a vertical line. The line is too short, so I changed the length. The line lengthened, UPWARD. So I then changed the top of the line, thinking that would help me except the bottom stayed and thus the line was shorter, again, but I missed that the resize checkbox was unchecked - because, if you don't have resize checked, then when you change a coordinate of an object, it just moves the object. What's even weirder about that is that normally, now, when I create a line, if I resize it I get the even more bizarre behavior of having the line lengthen in BOTH directions with the center fixed, which is generally followed by my shaking my monitor and screaming at it. Now, go try to use the equalize/align/distribute tools. Throw three or four objects on a card and use them. Is this also where I get to remind everyone about LC's bigotry toward items? You know, because ,,a is three items, but a,, and ,a, only counts as two? On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
And another: If you have your lappie hooked to two monitors at work, and you use both monitors, and then you go home, guess what happens to windows, especially on a Mac, where you are using multiple workspaces? That's right, the windows, even the LC development windows, are off-screen somewhere at 3750,150, and your only hope of getting them back is to figure out what the name of the development window is (say, the message box, or a properties palette, or maybe the script editor and then going to the message box and moving it manually. The good news with most of the things that we complain about is that because you can modify LC from within LC, you can fix these things yourself. The bad news is that when you run into these sorts of things, there isn't an uproar from the community that puts pressure on Edinburgh to drop refactoring the engine to fix something. HOWEVER, I think I'd take it this way, because this way, there is an economic motive for some author to release a tool that does something better than LC does, or is ready before LC might make it a priority. Yes, it costs money to purchase those tools, but it makes the ecosystem better, even though the IDE isn't better. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.comwrote: Whoops! Wait, a second, here's another: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. This is really great when you are working with a component or object that is installed by another developer, and want to look at two of the developer's objects side-by-side and make one like the other, but really awful when you don't, because you're stuck with it. You're not in charge of your setup, the component developer is, and if you have to fix something in that component, you are in for a lot of extra clicks and palette issues. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.comwrote: Try resizing something, or using the alignment tools. I just ran into this, again, this week, when I was trying to fix a vertical line. The line is too short, so I changed the length. The line lengthened, UPWARD. So I then changed the top of the line, thinking that would help me except the bottom stayed and thus the line was shorter, again, but I missed that the resize checkbox was unchecked - because, if you don't have resize checked, then when you change a coordinate of an object, it just moves the object. What's even weirder about that is that normally, now, when I create a line, if I resize it I get the even more bizarre behavior of having the line lengthen in BOTH directions with the center fixed, which is generally followed by my shaking my monitor and screaming at it. Now, go try to use the equalize/align/distribute tools. Throw three or four objects on a card and use them. Is this also where I get to remind everyone about LC's bigotry toward items? You know, because ,,a is three items, but a,, and ,a, only counts as two? On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Whoops! Wait, a second, here's another: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. This is really great when you are working with a component or object that is installed by another developer, and want to look at two of the developer's objects side-by-side and make one like the other, but really awful when you don't, because you're stuck with it. You're not in charge of your setup, the component developer is, and if you have to fix something in that component, you are in for a lot of extra clicks and palette issues. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.comwrote: Try resizing something, or using the alignment tools. I just ran into this, again, this week, when I was trying to fix a vertical line. The line is too short, so I changed the length. The line lengthened, UPWARD. So I then changed the top of the line, thinking that would help me except the bottom stayed and thus the line was shorter, again, but I missed that the resize checkbox was unchecked - because, if you don't have resize checked, then when you change a coordinate of an object, it just moves the object. What's even weirder about that is that normally, now, when I create a line, if I resize it I get the even more bizarre behavior of having the line lengthen in BOTH directions with the center fixed, which is generally followed by my shaking my monitor and screaming at it. Now, go try to use the equalize/align/distribute tools. Throw three or four objects on a card and use them. Is this also where I get to remind everyone about LC's bigotry toward items? You know, because ,,a is three items, but a,, and ,a, only counts as two? On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 15, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: Devin Asay wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. It may be helpful if you'd post your summary to the IDE Contributors Forum: http://forums.runrev.com/viewforum.php?f=67 Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Most of those names come from the bit-wise operations they use, or some similar historic origin. While it might be nice to try to craft English-like names for them, that's a daunting task - XOR is XOR in every language, and geeky as it is I can't think of any other way to describe it that isn't nearly a sentence long. :) Yes, I agree that sometimes concepts are too complex to describe in a short, neat label. But in the interface, perhaps the menu could show the effect of the ink visually, or maybe there could be a help button that would pop up a list explaining the inks in simple language. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Devin Asay wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. It may be helpful if you'd post your summary to the IDE Contributors Forum: http://forums.runrev.com/viewforum.php?f=67 Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Most of those names come from the bit-wise operations they use, or some similar historic origin. While it might be nice to try to craft English-like names for them, that's a daunting task - XOR is XOR in every language, and geeky as it is I can't think of any other way to describe it that isn't nearly a sentence long. :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/FourthWorldSys ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 15, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: Whoops! Wait, a second, here's another: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. This is really great when you are working with a component or object that is installed by another developer, and want to look at two of the developer's objects side-by-side and make one like the other, but really awful when you don't, because you're stuck with it. You're not in charge of your setup, the component developer is, and if you have to fix something in that component, you are in for a lot of extra clicks and palette issues. I'm not sure I'm following you on this one, Mike. Are you talking about the lock icon that locks the property palette to the currently selected object? What do you mean by persistent? Can't you just click the lock icon to de-link it from the object? Or are you referring to another locked property? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? - Charles On 15 May 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: And another: If you have your lappie hooked to two monitors at work, and you use both monitors, and then you go home, guess what happens to windows, especially on a Mac, where you are using multiple workspaces? That's right, the windows, even the LC development windows, are off-screen somewhere at 3750,150, and your only hope of getting them back is to figure out what the name of the development window is (say, the message box, or a properties palette, or maybe the script editor and then going to the message box and moving it manually. The good news with most of the things that we complain about is that because you can modify LC from within LC, you can fix these things yourself. The bad news is that when you run into these sorts of things, there isn't an uproar from the community that puts pressure on Edinburgh to drop refactoring the engine to fix something. HOWEVER, I think I'd take it this way, because this way, there is an economic motive for some author to release a tool that does something better than LC does, or is ready before LC might make it a priority. Yes, it costs money to purchase those tools, but it makes the ecosystem better, even though the IDE isn't better. -- Charles E. Buchwald CEO/Director General Museografica Digital http://digital.museografica.com LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca/developer-tools/ Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
There's a small view of two overlapping images at the bottom of the inspector that shows what the ink will do. The names of the inks are the same as the ones that Photoshop and many other image processing programs use, so that's a tough call. Specialists might complain if they are changed. On May 15, 2014 10:24:57 AM CDT, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: On May 15, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: Devin Asay wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. It may be helpful if you'd post your summary to the IDE Contributors Forum: http://forums.runrev.com/viewforum.php?f=67 Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Most of those names come from the bit-wise operations they use, or some similar historic origin. While it might be nice to try to craft English-like names for them, that's a daunting task - XOR is XOR in every language, and geeky as it is I can't think of any other way to describe it that isn't nearly a sentence long. :) Yes, I agree that sometimes concepts are too complex to describe in a short, neat label. But in the interface, perhaps the menu could show the effect of the ink visually, or maybe there could be a help button that would pop up a list explaining the inks in simple language. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 15, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.ca wrote: Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? In light of my effort to compile this list, I'm interested in the answer to this question as well. My understanding is that the IDE is not yet part of the GitHub… thingy, but will be soon. Richard? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 15, 2014, at 10:00 AM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: There's a small view of two overlapping images at the bottom of the inspector that shows what the ink will do. Well, I'll be d**ned. How many times have I looked at that, and it never registered until now. What a funny thing the human brain is. Well maybe just my brain. The names of the inks are the same as the ones that Photoshop and many other image processing programs use, so that's a tough call. Specialists might complain if they are changed. Right. I don't get then in PS either. :) Maybe this is an area that's just gonna require a body to go through a tutorial. Devin Devin Asay Learn to code with LiveCode University http://university.livecode.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 15/05/14 17:42, Devin Asay wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Yes: a set of names that had some sort of connexion with the effects produced would makes things somewhat more intuitive. Richmond. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
This one might be just me. It is awkward to move off the keyboard while editing a script to hover over a control in the Object Inspector waiting for it to take so I can see the name of the property. On May 15, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
It's persistent between launches of LC. The case in question is dealing with the dataGrid, because there are issues with the DG, which I detailed in a bug report that I filed this week, in particular related to resizing a header. Because a DG is an amalgam of numerous LC objects, issues can quickly become amplified. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: On May 15, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: Whoops! Wait, a second, here's another: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. This is really great when you are working with a component or object that is installed by another developer, and want to look at two of the developer's objects side-by-side and make one like the other, but really awful when you don't, because you're stuck with it. You're not in charge of your setup, the component developer is, and if you have to fix something in that component, you are in for a lot of extra clicks and palette issues. I'm not sure I'm following you on this one, Mike. Are you talking about the lock icon that locks the property palette to the currently selected object? What do you mean by persistent? Can't you just click the lock icon to de-link it from the object? Or are you referring to another locked property? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Charles, I was not aware of your add-on. Your add-on, like numerous other add-ons, have not made it to the collective consciousness, yet. That's exactly why we're talking about taking the revOnline project broader and trying to get it organized and improved, so that it becomes a catalog of everything you might want for LC, all in one place. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.cawrote: Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? - Charles On 15 May 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: And another: If you have your lappie hooked to two monitors at work, and you use both monitors, and then you go home, guess what happens to windows, especially on a Mac, where you are using multiple workspaces? That's right, the windows, even the LC development windows, are off-screen somewhere at 3750,150, and your only hope of getting them back is to figure out what the name of the development window is (say, the message box, or a properties palette, or maybe the script editor and then going to the message box and moving it manually. The good news with most of the things that we complain about is that because you can modify LC from within LC, you can fix these things yourself. The bad news is that when you run into these sorts of things, there isn't an uproar from the community that puts pressure on Edinburgh to drop refactoring the engine to fix something. HOWEVER, I think I'd take it this way, because this way, there is an economic motive for some author to release a tool that does something better than LC does, or is ready before LC might make it a priority. Yes, it costs money to purchase those tools, but it makes the ecosystem better, even though the IDE isn't better. -- Charles E. Buchwald CEO/Director General Museografica Digital http://digital.museografica.com LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca/developer-tools/ Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Most of the LC-coded portions of LC are not part of GitHub. This also includes dataGrids, which have several issues I discovered earlier in the week. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: On May 15, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.ca wrote: Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? In light of my effort to compile this list, I'm interested in the answer to this question as well. My understanding is that the IDE is not yet part of the GitHub… thingy, but will be soon. Richard? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
I’d call this one more than an oddity. This is a bug. It goes along with the one about how no window can be higher than the icon bar even if it is on a display placed high and the bar is not even on that display. Dar On May 15, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: And another: If you have your lappie hooked to two monitors at work, and you use both monitors, and then you go home, guess what happens to windows, especially on a Mac, where you are using multiple workspaces? That's right, the windows, even the LC development windows, are off-screen somewhere at 3750,150, and your only hope of getting them back is to figure out what the name of the development window is (say, the message box, or a properties palette, or maybe the script editor and then going to the message box and moving it manually. The good news with most of the things that we complain about is that because you can modify LC from within LC, you can fix these things yourself. The bad news is that when you run into these sorts of things, there isn't an uproar from the community that puts pressure on Edinburgh to drop refactoring the engine to fix something. HOWEVER, I think I'd take it this way, because this way, there is an economic motive for some author to release a tool that does something better than LC does, or is ready before LC might make it a priority. Yes, it costs money to purchase those tools, but it makes the ecosystem better, even though the IDE isn't better. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.comwrote: Whoops! Wait, a second, here's another: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. This is really great when you are working with a component or object that is installed by another developer, and want to look at two of the developer's objects side-by-side and make one like the other, but really awful when you don't, because you're stuck with it. You're not in charge of your setup, the component developer is, and if you have to fix something in that component, you are in for a lot of extra clicks and palette issues. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.comwrote: Try resizing something, or using the alignment tools. I just ran into this, again, this week, when I was trying to fix a vertical line. The line is too short, so I changed the length. The line lengthened, UPWARD. So I then changed the top of the line, thinking that would help me except the bottom stayed and thus the line was shorter, again, but I missed that the resize checkbox was unchecked - because, if you don't have resize checked, then when you change a coordinate of an object, it just moves the object. What's even weirder about that is that normally, now, when I create a line, if I resize it I get the even more bizarre behavior of having the line lengthen in BOTH directions with the center fixed, which is generally followed by my shaking my monitor and screaming at it. Now, go try to use the equalize/align/distribute tools. Throw three or four objects on a card and use them. Is this also where I get to remind everyone about LC's bigotry toward items? You know, because ,,a is three items, but a,, and ,a, only counts as two? On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
+1 On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Dar Scott d...@swcp.com wrote: This one might be just me. It is awkward to move off the keyboard while editing a script to hover over a control in the Object Inspector waiting for it to take so I can see the name of the property. On May 15, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Thanks for the responses folks. Keep them coming, and I'll post a summary. Here's another one of mine: Names of blendLevel inks: Whaaa? What do those things even mean? Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
OK, so what do we have to do, as a community of users, to get RevOnline working again? This seems like a good way to encourage and coordinate community participation. Particularly so because we are talking about LC code, outside of the GitHub ecosystem, and outside of the IDE. And because it's been broken, or at least hobbled, for quite a while. How about we take a modest plan to the mothership. Perhaps the mothership could appropriately anoint an individual or small team to shepherd a new version of RevOnline? Someone to oversee code integration? This could even serve as a model for further non-GitHub-based community participation Richard Gaskin: what's your perspective on this as community liaison? Other list members: any volunteers? - Charles On 15 May 2014, at 1:01 PM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: Charles, I was not aware of your add-on. Your add-on, like numerous other add-ons, have not made it to the collective consciousness, yet. That's exactly why we're talking about taking the revOnline project broader and trying to get it organized and improved, so that it becomes a catalog of everything you might want for LC, all in one place. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.cawrote: Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? - Charles -- Charles E. Buchwald CEO/Director General Museografica Digital http://digital.museografica.com LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca/developer-tools/ Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Look at the [Off] Cool Plugins thread. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Richard is heading up this effort. It is being discussed in another thread. Volunteers have been...volunteering. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.cawrote: OK, so what do we have to do, as a community of users, to get RevOnline working again? This seems like a good way to encourage and coordinate community participation. Particularly so because we are talking about LC code, outside of the GitHub ecosystem, and outside of the IDE. And because it's been broken, or at least hobbled, for quite a while. How about we take a modest plan to the mothership. Perhaps the mothership could appropriately anoint an individual or small team to shepherd a new version of RevOnline? Someone to oversee code integration? This could even serve as a model for further non-GitHub-based community participation Richard Gaskin: what's your perspective on this as community liaison? Other list members: any volunteers? - Charles On 15 May 2014, at 1:01 PM, Mike Kerner mikeker...@roadrunner.com wrote: Charles, I was not aware of your add-on. Your add-on, like numerous other add-ons, have not made it to the collective consciousness, yet. That's exactly why we're talking about taking the revOnline project broader and trying to get it organized and improved, so that it becomes a catalog of everything you might want for LC, all in one place. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Charles E Buchwald char...@buchwald.cawrote: Mike, this is the part that I don't get about open source... yet. I guess we don't have the community structures to handle it. I mean, I've made that (free) plugin to handle this specific problem. lcMover moves stacks/windows around, whether they are off-screen or not. I even added an option recently to specifically move off-screen stacks back on-screen. (Not posted quite yet... on the way.) Isn't the whole open source idea that I could contribute some code for that to the IDE? Preferably without having to write it in C++? Since GitHub doesn't work for this, will we eventually have designated community members to shepherd the integration of code or features like this? That is, a community mechanism for addressing IDE oddities? - Charles -- Charles E. Buchwald CEO/Director General Museografica Digital http://digital.museografica.com LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca/developer-tools/ Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Charles wrote: OK, so what do we have to do, as a community of users, to get RevOnline working again? Fix it. :) My Community meeting this morning with Ben focused almost exclusively on RevOnline. It's true that LiveCode is inherently problematic to attempt to integrate into tools like GitHub, not merely because it's a binary file format and GitHub is designed for plain text, but more because of the nature of the workflow in which UI and code are intermingled. Monte's spent considerable time explaining the Why of that, and if needed I could try again, but for now the bottom line on GitHub integration is that it may require engine enhancements to support, and given current priorities not likely to happen for at least a few more months at best. So in the absence of a GitHub workflow, clearly we need at least some alternative to move forward with community contributions on IDE components. We explored a few options, but one stood out as a *possible* solution for modest fixes in the short term. I'm stressing possible here because he needs to review the workflow with the team to make sure it's going to work, but here's the outline: If a member of the community has time and interest to fix a bug in the IDE, the revised handler(s) can be added to the bug report, and the title of the report prepended with FIX: to flag it for the team as a report that also includes the fix. And of course the post with the fixed handler(s) should note the object and line numbers where the original handler(s) can be found. For any issue whose recipe requires more than running a single line of code in the Message Box, a unit test stack should be provided illustrating the issue so that it can be run before the fix is applied, then again after copying-and-pasting the fix to verify that it works. Well-crafted unit tests may even be included in RunRev's internal collection for future regression tests, providing long-term benefit in addition to helping to ensure quick action on a bug. As an example of this workflow in action, we have a simple fix here: http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11493 Since the code change is comprised of adding only five characters to a comparison string and can be easily seen in the Message Box, no unit test is required for that one. There may be reasons why they're not able to guarantee super-quick responses on reports using this protocol, but even before he runs it by the team I see no harm and potentially much good in encouraging interested folks to dive into fixing any issues you find particularly annoying, and including the fixed code in the report. True, this protocol can only address issues of limited scope, and at the moment is still being reviewed for feasibility. But the benefit of having fixed code posted to the report is undeniably valuable in guiding the team to the solution - all we need now is people in a position to supply the fixes. That last step has been the hardest. For example, after all the discussion of documentation issues over the years, once I got forum permissions to modify things there for community initiatives I took the time to set up a new forum section for that: http://forums.runrev.com/viewforum.php?f=83 Thus far there's been some good ideas discussed, but no one in a position to actually act on any of them. Many of us juggle multiple priorities, much like RunRev themselves, so I can understand that it's far easier to imagine fixed code than it is to write it. :) It may be that we won't really see serious traction on community participation for quite some months yet, until the community grows large enough to include a greater number of people in a position to contribute. We'll see. But in the meantime the core dev team at RunRev is actively exploring many ways to incorporate community contributions for IDE components, and if we start seeing fixes submitted to the bug reports we'll be able to refine and enhance the workflow to make sure it's working well for all of us. -- Richard Gaskin LiveCode Community Manager rich...@livecode.org ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
This is similar to a discussion I had earlier this week about fixing the issues I found in DataGrid. However, what do we do about OnRev, especially if we are going to work on it as a group of sorts? On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:29 PM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote: Charles wrote: OK, so what do we have to do, as a community of users, to get RevOnline working again? Fix it. :) My Community meeting this morning with Ben focused almost exclusively on RevOnline. It's true that LiveCode is inherently problematic to attempt to integrate into tools like GitHub, not merely because it's a binary file format and GitHub is designed for plain text, but more because of the nature of the workflow in which UI and code are intermingled. Monte's spent considerable time explaining the Why of that, and if needed I could try again, but for now the bottom line on GitHub integration is that it may require engine enhancements to support, and given current priorities not likely to happen for at least a few more months at best. So in the absence of a GitHub workflow, clearly we need at least some alternative to move forward with community contributions on IDE components. We explored a few options, but one stood out as a *possible* solution for modest fixes in the short term. I'm stressing possible here because he needs to review the workflow with the team to make sure it's going to work, but here's the outline: If a member of the community has time and interest to fix a bug in the IDE, the revised handler(s) can be added to the bug report, and the title of the report prepended with FIX: to flag it for the team as a report that also includes the fix. And of course the post with the fixed handler(s) should note the object and line numbers where the original handler(s) can be found. For any issue whose recipe requires more than running a single line of code in the Message Box, a unit test stack should be provided illustrating the issue so that it can be run before the fix is applied, then again after copying-and-pasting the fix to verify that it works. Well-crafted unit tests may even be included in RunRev's internal collection for future regression tests, providing long-term benefit in addition to helping to ensure quick action on a bug. As an example of this workflow in action, we have a simple fix here: http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11493 Since the code change is comprised of adding only five characters to a comparison string and can be easily seen in the Message Box, no unit test is required for that one. There may be reasons why they're not able to guarantee super-quick responses on reports using this protocol, but even before he runs it by the team I see no harm and potentially much good in encouraging interested folks to dive into fixing any issues you find particularly annoying, and including the fixed code in the report. True, this protocol can only address issues of limited scope, and at the moment is still being reviewed for feasibility. But the benefit of having fixed code posted to the report is undeniably valuable in guiding the team to the solution - all we need now is people in a position to supply the fixes. That last step has been the hardest. For example, after all the discussion of documentation issues over the years, once I got forum permissions to modify things there for community initiatives I took the time to set up a new forum section for that: http://forums.runrev.com/viewforum.php?f=83 Thus far there's been some good ideas discussed, but no one in a position to actually act on any of them. Many of us juggle multiple priorities, much like RunRev themselves, so I can understand that it's far easier to imagine fixed code than it is to write it. :) It may be that we won't really see serious traction on community participation for quite some months yet, until the community grows large enough to include a greater number of people in a position to contribute. We'll see. But in the meantime the core dev team at RunRev is actively exploring many ways to incorporate community contributions for IDE components, and if we start seeing fixes submitted to the bug reports we'll be able to refine and enhance the workflow to make sure it's working well for all of us. -- Richard Gaskin LiveCode Community Manager rich...@livecode.org ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-livecode mailing list
[TIC: Tongue in Cheek] Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 15/05/2014 21:29, Richard Gaskin wrote: As an example of this workflow in action, we have a simple fix here: http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11493 Since the code change is comprised of adding only five characters to a comparison string and can be easily seen in the Message Box, no unit test is required for that one. I confess I have not read the guidelines on making code contributions, so I don't know which step includes code review by general onlookers - so here's a quick code review of this change. The proposed change is summarized as: Currently: if the platform is MacOS then Should be: if the platform is in MacOSLinux then I'd regard that change as unsafe for the following reason. Currently Apple have reached version 10 (i.e. X) of MacOS, and version 7 of IOS. I suspect these may merge in the future, and be named either simply OS or something like that. Now, given enough years, the version number will reach 50, i.e. in Roman numerals, L - and so be called OSL. This could result in a false positive in the above test, since OSL is a substring spread across what are really two distinct parts of MacOSLinux. I'd therefore propose that this test should be something more like if the platform is among the items of MacOS,Linux then However - I've not actually tested that, nor checked whether the itemDel can be safely assumed at that point in the script - so you should probably ignore this suggestion :-) -- Alex. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Mike Kerner wrote: This is similar to a discussion I had earlier this week about fixing the issues I found in DataGrid. I think I missed something. Did you submit fixes with those? If you did, please add a FIX: prefix to the report titled so they can be flagged. However, what do we do about OnRev, especially if we are going to work on it as a group of sorts? On-Rev the hosting service, or RevOnline the stack sharing tool? If the former, the LiveCode Server engine is already open source in GitHub, and the real-time debugger is being reviewed for possible open source as I noted in the post you replied to. In that post I also outlined some specific next steps for RevOnline, but one of the problems with writing long posts is details get lost. ;) I'll cover that some more in my reply to Charles shortly, but in brief let's start with the things we know we want to do: The biggest complaint with RevOnline right now is that some folks report it doesn't work for them. Let's fix that. In the course of addressing the these immediate short-term goals, we'll discover what works and doesn't work with the process and refine it as we go. -- Richard Gaskin LiveCode Community Manager rich...@livecode.org ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [TIC: Tongue in Cheek] Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Well, always good to anticipate future-proofing. :) On another note, as I promised you last week I did ask Ben if RunRev planned on open-sourcing the On-Rev real-time debugger. He's not sure and will check with Kevin, but he did confirm my hunch that it requires specific sockets open on the server so it won't be useful for anyone on a shared host, only a dedicated server where they can run custom daemons. I'll let you know when I hear back from him on that. Also, he let me know that the developer working on it reports that he's about a week or two away from completion. Nothing set in stone, of course, because it's a busy place there with team members wearing multiple hats, but at the moment things look promising for a rollout of the new On-Rev debugger reasonably soon. -- Richard Gaskin LiveCode Community Manager rich...@livecode.org Alex Tweedly wrote: On 15/05/2014 21:29, Richard Gaskin wrote: As an example of this workflow in action, we have a simple fix here: http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11493 Since the code change is comprised of adding only five characters to a comparison string and can be easily seen in the Message Box, no unit test is required for that one. I confess I have not read the guidelines on making code contributions, so I don't know which step includes code review by general onlookers - so here's a quick code review of this change. The proposed change is summarized as: Currently: if the platform is MacOS then Should be: if the platform is in MacOSLinux then I'd regard that change as unsafe for the following reason. Currently Apple have reached version 10 (i.e. X) of MacOS, and version 7 of IOS. I suspect these may merge in the future, and be named either simply OS or something like that. Now, given enough years, the version number will reach 50, i.e. in Roman numerals, L - and so be called OSL. This could result in a false positive in the above test, since OSL is a substring spread across what are really two distinct parts of MacOSLinux. I'd therefore propose that this test should be something more like if the platform is among the items of MacOS,Linux then However - I've not actually tested that, nor checked whether the itemDel can be safely assumed at that point in the script - so you should probably ignore this suggestion :-) ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 5/15/14, 12:59 PM, Dar Scott wrote: It is awkward to move off the keyboard while editing a script to hover over a control in the Object Inspector waiting for it to take so I can see the name of the property. You can select go the the General pane in preferences, look for Property labels are: at the top, and select Name of LiveCode property. Then you won't have to wait for a tool tip. Personally I think the native property names should be shown by default. New users will learn scripting much faster if the real names are always displayed, and if they wonder what a property does, the tooltip hover will display the plain English description as a cue. Basically, whichever option is selected in prefs, the tooltip shows the other one. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 5/15/14, 10:35 AM, Devin Asay wrote: The locked of the properties palette for each object is separate and persistent. From what I can see, cards and stacks selected from the app browser will open a locked inspector (anything in the left-hand pane.) Objects on a card (anything in the right-hand pane) will open an unlocked inspector. Anything selected from within the stack itself (by clicking or using the contextual menu) opens an unlocked inspector. The behavior might be different in the new project browser. I'm not using it much because it's too slow and unwieldy for the large stacks in my current job. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Yeah, I was aware of that, but never tried it. I’m afraid I’d get very confused. I should be brave. Also, I’m greedy and want both. I’ll try what you suggest and see if that is too greedy. Dar Dar Scott Consulting d...@swcp.com Helping LiveCode programers with Externals and Libraries On May 15, 2014, at 5:23 PM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: On 5/15/14, 12:59 PM, Dar Scott wrote: It is awkward to move off the keyboard while editing a script to hover over a control in the Object Inspector waiting for it to take so I can see the name of the property. You can select go the the General pane in preferences, look for Property labels are: at the top, and select Name of LiveCode property. Then you won't have to wait for a tool tip. Personally I think the native property names should be shown by default. New users will learn scripting much faster if the real names are always displayed, and if they wonder what a property does, the tooltip hover will display the plain English description as a cue. Basically, whichever option is selected in prefs, the tooltip shows the other one. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Devin Asay wrote [snip] Yes, I agree that sometimes concepts are too complex to describe in a short, neat label. But in the interface, perhaps the menu could show the effect of the ink visually, or maybe there could be a help button that would pop up a list explaining the inks in simple language. This page explains the math of ink effects: http://ssp.impulsetrain.com/porterduff.html But the best way to understand ink effects is 1- creating a stack 2- import as control a transparent PNG image like: http://pngimg.com/upload/orange_PNG811.png 3- import as control a second transparent PNG image like: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Earth_Western_Hemisphere_transparent_background.png/240px-Earth_Western_Hemisphere_transparent_background.png 4- Place the earth image over the orange. All orange leafs should be still visible 5- select both images and group them... The stack contains a group of two png images with transparency 6- Now... change ink effects on every element: a) The Group b) image Earth c) image Orange Results are difficult to predict, at least for me... :o -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679568.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
You're right, the results aren't predictable, as you've seen, since object-level effects are modified when compounded by an effect applied to a containing group. Color sometimes plays factor too. But realistically, there aren't that many results that are useful. Generally, I've found the structural blends are most useful for masking objects and groups, while the imaging blends are more for color/visual effects, like the standard Photoshop blend modes. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, UX/UI Design On 5/15/14 7:42 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com wrote: Devin Asay wrote [snip] Yes, I agree that sometimes concepts are too complex to describe in a short, neat label. But in the interface, perhaps the menu could show the effect of the ink visually, or maybe there could be a help button that would pop up a list explaining the inks in simple language. This page explains the math of ink effects: http://ssp.impulsetrain.com/porterduff.html But the best way to understand ink effects is 1- creating a stack 2- import as control a transparent PNG image like: http://pngimg.com/upload/orange_PNG811.png 3- import as control a second transparent PNG image like: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Earth_Western_Hem isphere_transparent_background.png/240px-Earth_Western_Hemisphere_transpar ent_background.png 4- Place the earth image over the orange. All orange leafs should be still visible 5- select both images and group them... The stack contains a group of two png images with transparency 6- Now... change ink effects on every element: a) The Group b) image Earth c) image Orange Results are difficult to predict, at least for me... :o -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4 679382p4679568.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 14, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Closely related: Why are lock size and lock location controlled by a single property? Good question. The good news is that it is now possible to group a single object. Dar Scott Libraries and Externals d...@swcp.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 14/05/14 19:26, Dar Scott wrote: On May 14, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Closely related: Why are lock size and lock location controlled by a single property? Good question. The good news is that it is now possible to group a single object. What? I grouped a single object with version 2.2.1: an image that was bigger than my stack, so I could constrain it with scrollbars. Richmond. Dar Scott Libraries and Externals d...@swcp.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Yeah, I goofed. No sleep. I was getting confused with grouping a group. It can be done, but I don’t know how with the IDE. Dar On May 14, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote: On 14/05/14 19:26, Dar Scott wrote: On May 14, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Closely related: Why are lock size and lock location controlled by a single property? Good question. The good news is that it is now possible to group a single object. What? I grouped a single object with version 2.2.1: an image that was bigger than my stack, so I could constrain it with scrollbars. Richmond. Dar Scott Libraries and Externals d...@swcp.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 14, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Dar Scott d...@swcp.com wrote: On May 14, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Closely related: Why are lock size and lock location controlled by a single property? Good question. The good news is that it is now possible to group a single object. Thanks for your reply, Dar. I'd like to keep the focus of this thread on things in the LiveCode IDE that are odd, inconsistent, or confusing to the new user. Later I'll make a compilation and share it with the list. As a reminder, I got to thinking about this topic after watching an excellent 2-part video on user interface design principles at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYiiD-p2q80. This series was focused on Blender, an open source 3D rendering package, but you could substitute LiveCode for Blender in the narrative and have a useful think about how LC's interface comes across to newbies. In that spirit, here's another one: - Lack of reliable Undo functionality outside of the script editor. This is a major source of frustration to new users (and old, but we've learned to work around it.) (If you'd like to discuss the Undo issue, please start a new thread, so I can keep this one on topic.) :) Thanks, Devin Devin Asay Learn to code with LiveCode University http://university.livecode.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
One thing that confused the heck out of me at the start is how the menu bar changes depending on whether a stack or the script editor is in front (this is on OSX). When in the script editor, the menu bar shows File, Edit, Debug, Handler, Window, Help and the File menu has no entries to open a stack, etc. When on a stack, it shows File, Edit, Tools, Object Text, Development, View, Window, Help. So if I'm in the script editor and close all the open stacks, there is no way to open another stack without opening either the application browser or the Tools palette (and maybe other IDE stacks), neither of which I use. I'm sure this is a result of Apple's HIG but I have to say things work much better in this regard on Windows, where the script editor related menus are in the script editor itself. Pete lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com Home of lcStackBrowser http://www.lcsql.com/lcstackbrowser.html and SQLiteAdmin http://www.lcsql.com/sqliteadmin.html On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: On May 14, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Dar Scott d...@swcp.com wrote: On May 14, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Devin Asay devin_a...@byu.edu wrote: Closely related: Why are lock size and lock location controlled by a single property? Good question. The good news is that it is now possible to group a single object. Thanks for your reply, Dar. I'd like to keep the focus of this thread on things in the LiveCode IDE that are odd, inconsistent, or confusing to the new user. Later I'll make a compilation and share it with the list. As a reminder, I got to thinking about this topic after watching an excellent 2-part video on user interface design principles at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYiiD-p2q80. This series was focused on Blender, an open source 3D rendering package, but you could substitute LiveCode for Blender in the narrative and have a useful think about how LC's interface comes across to newbies. In that spirit, here's another one: - Lack of reliable Undo functionality outside of the script editor. This is a major source of frustration to new users (and old, but we've learned to work around it.) (If you'd like to discuss the Undo issue, please start a new thread, so I can keep this one on topic.) :) Thanks, Devin Devin Asay Learn to code with LiveCode University http://university.livecode.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 14, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Peter Haworth p...@lcsql.com wrote: One thing that confused the heck out of me at the start is how the menu bar changes depending on whether a stack or the script editor is in front (this is on OSX). When in the script editor, the menu bar shows File, Edit, Debug, Handler, Window, Help and the File menu has no entries to open a stack, etc. When on a stack, it shows File, Edit, Tools, Object Text, Development, View, Window, Help. So if I'm in the script editor and close all the open stacks, there is no way to open another stack without opening either the application browser or the Tools palette (and maybe other IDE stacks), neither of which I use. I'm sure this is a result of Apple's HIG but I have to say things work much better in this regard on Windows, where the script editor related menus are in the script editor itself. Good one, Pete. I trip over that all the time. Keep 'em coming, folks. Here's another one of mine: By default closing a stack window keeps the file open in memory. This is one of the biggest sources of confusion and frustration for new users. It is too easy to save and close a stack window, then inadvertantly open an older version of a stack and then make the wrong choice on the confusing Save-Purge-Cancel dialog. Often the new user is convinced that all of their recent work has simply vanished, when in reality they just opened the wrong version of the stack. The default behavior should be that when a stack window is closed it is also removed from memory. I realize there are good and valid reasons for the current behavior, but it is confusing and offputting for new users. Experienced users can easily change the behavior. Devin Devin Asay Learn to code with LiveCode University http://university.livecode.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
Actually, new users wants that LiveCode IDE looks and behave as their own favorite software... So a Graphic Designer wants that Livecode looks and behave like Photoshop, Ilustrator, Flash, etc. A MS Office needs that LiveCode adopt all the conventions of these products... The 3D artist wants... The Musician wants... The Database Manager wants... The Linux user wants... The Mac User wants... The Windows user wants http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Error-Messages-Are-Evil-tp4679382p4679496.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On May 14, 2014, at 3:31 PM, Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, new users wants that LiveCode IDE looks and behave as their own favorite software... So a Graphic Designer wants that Livecode looks and behave like Photoshop, Ilustrator, Flash, etc. A MS Office needs that LiveCode adopt all the conventions of these products... The 3D artist wants... The Musician wants... The Database Manager wants... The Linux user wants... The Mac User wants... The Windows user wants http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI Al True, maybe, but surely there are interface problems that can be improved by applying common-sense design principles. The video you linked to before was arguing for the opposite of what special interest groups want. He was, in fact, arguing against his own special interest group (blender developers) in favor of making the user interface more accessible to new users. I think we could do the same for the LiveCode interface. Devin Devin Asay Office of Digital Humanities Brigham Young University ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On 5/14/14, 1:04 PM, Devin Asay wrote: I'd like to keep the focus of this thread on things in the LiveCode IDE that are odd, inconsistent, or confusing to the new user. I know there are a hundred things like that. Problem is, I'm so used to working around them that I can't think of what they are any more. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: IDE oddities (was Re: Error Messages Are Evil)
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Dar Scott d...@swcp.com wrote: No sleep. I was getting confused with grouping a group. It can be done, but I don’t know how with the IDE. Group two things, and delete one. I've stumbled across *empty* groups hanging around in my stacks . . . -- Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. (702) 508-8462 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
