Re: Times ARE changing

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Oh, blast, I was wrong: I thought the author was Angela Banner: just 
shows you how long those books

have sat, untouched, on my shelf.

Thank you very much for the correction.

Richmond.

On 8.06.20 18:32, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:


Times are hardly changing at all in substance, actually - this is 
nothing but a superficial change of costumes in society's grand parade 
of exquisite nonsense. Always a great pretense of love, always plenty 
of real hate and prejudice. The thugs and their victims do change in 
every Act of society's Play, fitting the fashions of the day, but 
either way it's still innocent people getting hurt.


For devotees of virtue signaling, let's cut to the chase - time to 
change your OWN names too! Lest Tom or Jane offend the perpetually 
triggered, not to mention the horror of David, Nancy, Joshua, or Billy 
with all the cultural skeletons that imaginative minds could attach to 
them. (I could, easily.) Let's be thorough and not stop half-way with 
the cultural lobotomy.


For those who love fake news and fictitious history, here's a true 
fact to completely ruin the day: I grew up deep in the real South (not 
the TV or novel versions) and heard a number of derogatory racial 
terms for all races including my own, but NEVER once Sambo. At least 
not by real live English speakers in that region - again, books and TV 
aside. The point of real derogatory terms would be to sound nasty and 
hurtful, and in most places where I've been, Sambo just wouldn't cut 
it. Sorry. Maybe it could have been a problem up in the North or out 
in California (I have no idea) but certainly not in the South where I 
was.


For book burners and those who love censorship, here's the ultimate 
downer: the glory of Gutenberg, still going strong!


http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17824

Once enough people finally tire of pretense and corruption and 
control, the smart and honest people of every background can and will 
finally get on with the REAL business of a non-prejudiced society to 
benefit real people. And it won't be anything like the media/mob fantasy.


Speaking of cheese - even "Cheddar is better" or "I only own 
Provolone" would seem amazingly intellectual and relevant when 
compared to mind-numbing trends like this! But I dare say LiveCode 
topics would be even MORE relevant than either Sambo or the wonders of 
cheese! Not to mention talented/hilarious Vikings and glorious, 
marvelous sp*m


Always in love, but always with some intelligence too,

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Times ARE changing

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Times are hardly changing at all in substance, actually - this is 
nothing but a superficial change of costumes in society's grand parade 
of exquisite nonsense. Always a great pretense of love, always plenty of 
real hate and prejudice. The thugs and their victims do change in every 
Act of society's Play, fitting the fashions of the day, but either way 
it's still innocent people getting hurt.


For devotees of virtue signaling, let's cut to the chase - time to 
change your OWN names too! Lest Tom or Jane offend the perpetually 
triggered, not to mention the horror of David, Nancy, Joshua, or Billy 
with all the cultural skeletons that imaginative minds could attach to 
them. (I could, easily.) Let's be thorough and not stop half-way with 
the cultural lobotomy.


For those who love fake news and fictitious history, here's a true fact 
to completely ruin the day: I grew up deep in the real South (not the TV 
or novel versions) and heard a number of derogatory racial terms for all 
races including my own, but NEVER once Sambo. At least not by real live 
English speakers in that region - again, books and TV aside. The point 
of real derogatory terms would be to sound nasty and hurtful, and in 
most places where I've been, Sambo just wouldn't cut it. Sorry. Maybe it 
could have been a problem up in the North or out in California (I have 
no idea) but certainly not in the South where I was.


For book burners and those who love censorship, here's the ultimate 
downer: the glory of Gutenberg, still going strong!


http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17824

Once enough people finally tire of pretense and corruption and control, 
the smart and honest people of every background can and will finally get 
on with the REAL business of a non-prejudiced society to benefit real 
people. And it won't be anything like the media/mob fantasy.


Speaking of cheese - even "Cheddar is better" or "I only own Provolone" 
would seem amazingly intellectual and relevant when compared to 
mind-numbing trends like this! But I dare say LiveCode topics would be 
even MORE relevant than either Sambo or the wonders of cheese! Not to 
mention talented/hilarious Vikings and glorious, marvelous sp*m


Always in love, but always with some intelligence too,

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Times ARE changing

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

Hmmm? 

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 7 Jun 2020, at 22:13, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Cheese

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Re: Times ARE changing

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

When a tiny boy near the middle of a previous century I secretly hid with a 
book with words in it. I was not able to puzzle the words, but I could look at 
the pictures. Believing it to be a fun tale mothers told children in a far off 
land, I studied the pictures to learn a lesson such mothers might have for 
their children. (I was not allowed to look at books with pictures or magazines 
or newspapers until I was in 1st grade, though I could look at pictures cut 
from them, a cold-war thing.)

Dar Scott


My forthcoming work in five volumes, `The Neglect of Cheese in European 
Literature,' is a work of such unprecedented and laborious detail that it is 
doubtful whether I shall live to finish it. -- G. K. Chesterton

> On Jun 7, 2020, at 5:24 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well put, good point.
> 
> On 7.06.20 11:06, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Richmond wrote:
>> > If some of these types who go on endlessly about anything that might
>> > be vaguely construed as 'racist' were capable of slightly more subtle
>> > thought they might examine intentions: after all if we all judged
>> > people on what they looked like most of us would be out of a job and
>> > starving.
>> 
>> There is also the problem of linguistic false cognates. Similar words from 
>> different regions often have very different etymologies.
>> 
>> While the stories of the old British Empire can be charming (I love the two 
>> hard-bound volumes of Kipling my father gave me), the Indian tale is 
>> unrelated to both the origins of the American word "sambo" and its 
>> colloquial use.
>> 
>> On this continent, much of our language is influenced by the Spanish who 
>> were among the first Europeans to explore and settle most the Americas.
>> 
>> From Wikipedia:
>> 
>>The word "sambo" came into the English language from the Latin
>>American Spanish word zambo, the Spanish word in Latin America
>>for a person of mixed African and Native American descent.[3]
>>This in turn may have come from one of three African language
>>sources. Webster's Third International Dictionary holds that
>>it may have come from the Kongo word nzambu ("monkey") — the
>>z of (Latin American) Spanish being pronounced here like the
>>English s.
>> 
>> Complicating matters further is the difference between etymology and popular 
>> usage, as Ms Gay has reminded us with good humor over the years. :)
>> 
>> English-speaking people in the US didn't use the word until after the 
>> American Civil War, popularized mostly by the losing side of that conflict 
>> as a derogatory term.
>> 
>> Though the war was long ago, the legacy is evident. We needn't go any 
>> further on that here in this programmer's list.
>> 
>> It is indeed unfortunate that those who used the word most commonly in the 
>> States have cast an unfortunate pallor on a tale from the other side of the 
>> world, and that Samuel Battistone and Newell Bohnett found themselves in an 
>> awkward spot with their restaurants well known for excellent pancake 
>> breakfasts.
>> 
>> Indeed, the Santa Barbara restaurant is still family-owned, and the current 
>> manager Chad Stevens has expressed a hopeful note about the name change that 
>> goes into effect this Friday:
>> 
>> "With the changing world and circumstances, the name isn’t just about what 
>> it means to us, but the meaning it holds for others. At this point, our 
>> family has looked into our hearts and realize that we must be sensitive when 
>> others whom we respect make a strong appeal. So today we stand in solidarity 
>> with those seeking change and doing our part."
>> 
>> Maybe best of all, the new temporary name they'll be using while the family 
>> decides on a permanent one is: "☮"
>> 
>> https://www.noozhawk.com/article/bizhawk_sambos_santa_barbara_to_change_name_20200604
>>  
>> 
>> By any name, the restaurant at 216 W. Cabrillo Blvd in Santa Barbara is well 
>> worth making a point of visiting whenever you're passing through that part 
>> of California's coast.  The pancakes are truly awesome.
>> 
>> 
>> This is quite off-topic, and I hope this momentary indulgence in etymology 
>> and pancakes doesn't stray too close to cheese.
>> 
>> Back to our regularly-scheduled LiveCode discussion, where I'll post a 
>> question about the Browser widget next...
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Times ARE changing

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Well put, good point.

On 7.06.20 11:06, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond wrote:
> If some of these types who go on endlessly about anything that might
> be vaguely construed as 'racist' were capable of slightly more subtle
> thought they might examine intentions: after all if we all judged
> people on what they looked like most of us would be out of a job and
> starving.

There is also the problem of linguistic false cognates. Similar words 
from different regions often have very different etymologies.


While the stories of the old British Empire can be charming (I love 
the two hard-bound volumes of Kipling my father gave me), the Indian 
tale is unrelated to both the origins of the American word "sambo" and 
its colloquial use.


On this continent, much of our language is influenced by the Spanish 
who were among the first Europeans to explore and settle most the 
Americas.


From Wikipedia:

   The word "sambo" came into the English language from the Latin
   American Spanish word zambo, the Spanish word in Latin America
   for a person of mixed African and Native American descent.[3]
   This in turn may have come from one of three African language
   sources. Webster's Third International Dictionary holds that
   it may have come from the Kongo word nzambu ("monkey") — the
   z of (Latin American) Spanish being pronounced here like the
   English s.

Complicating matters further is the difference between etymology and 
popular usage, as Ms Gay has reminded us with good humor over the 
years. :)


English-speaking people in the US didn't use the word until after the 
American Civil War, popularized mostly by the losing side of that 
conflict as a derogatory term.


Though the war was long ago, the legacy is evident. We needn't go any 
further on that here in this programmer's list.


It is indeed unfortunate that those who used the word most commonly in 
the States have cast an unfortunate pallor on a tale from the other 
side of the world, and that Samuel Battistone and Newell Bohnett found 
themselves in an awkward spot with their restaurants well known for 
excellent pancake breakfasts.


Indeed, the Santa Barbara restaurant is still family-owned, and the 
current manager Chad Stevens has expressed a hopeful note about the 
name change that goes into effect this Friday:


"With the changing world and circumstances, the name isn’t just about 
what it means to us, but the meaning it holds for others. At this 
point, our family has looked into our hearts and realize that we must 
be sensitive when others whom we respect make a strong appeal. So 
today we stand in solidarity with those seeking change and doing our 
part."


Maybe best of all, the new temporary name they'll be using while the 
family decides on a permanent one is: "☮"


https://www.noozhawk.com/article/bizhawk_sambos_santa_barbara_to_change_name_20200604 



By any name, the restaurant at 216 W. Cabrillo Blvd in Santa Barbara 
is well worth making a point of visiting whenever you're passing 
through that part of California's coast.  The pancakes are truly awesome.



This is quite off-topic, and I hope this momentary indulgence in 
etymology and pancakes doesn't stray too close to cheese.


Back to our regularly-scheduled LiveCode discussion, where I'll post a 
question about the Browser widget next...





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Re: Times ARE changing

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:
> If some of these types who go on endlessly about anything that might
> be vaguely construed as 'racist' were capable of slightly more subtle
> thought they might examine intentions: after all if we all judged
> people on what they looked like most of us would be out of a job and
> starving.

There is also the problem of linguistic false cognates. Similar words 
from different regions often have very different etymologies.


While the stories of the old British Empire can be charming (I love the 
two hard-bound volumes of Kipling my father gave me), the Indian tale is 
unrelated to both the origins of the American word "sambo" and its 
colloquial use.


On this continent, much of our language is influenced by the Spanish who 
were among the first Europeans to explore and settle most the Americas.


From Wikipedia:

   The word "sambo" came into the English language from the Latin
   American Spanish word zambo, the Spanish word in Latin America
   for a person of mixed African and Native American descent.[3]
   This in turn may have come from one of three African language
   sources. Webster's Third International Dictionary holds that
   it may have come from the Kongo word nzambu ("monkey") — the
   z of (Latin American) Spanish being pronounced here like the
   English s.

Complicating matters further is the difference between etymology and 
popular usage, as Ms Gay has reminded us with good humor over the years. :)


English-speaking people in the US didn't use the word until after the 
American Civil War, popularized mostly by the losing side of that 
conflict as a derogatory term.


Though the war was long ago, the legacy is evident. We needn't go any 
further on that here in this programmer's list.


It is indeed unfortunate that those who used the word most commonly in 
the States have cast an unfortunate pallor on a tale from the other side 
of the world, and that Samuel Battistone and Newell Bohnett found 
themselves in an awkward spot with their restaurants well known for 
excellent pancake breakfasts.


Indeed, the Santa Barbara restaurant is still family-owned, and the 
current manager Chad Stevens has expressed a hopeful note about the name 
change that goes into effect this Friday:


"With the changing world and circumstances, the name isn’t just about 
what it means to us, but the meaning it holds for others. At this point, 
our family has looked into our hearts and realize that we must be 
sensitive when others whom we respect make a strong appeal. So today we 
stand in solidarity with those seeking change and doing our part."


Maybe best of all, the new temporary name they'll be using while the 
family decides on a permanent one is: "☮"


https://www.noozhawk.com/article/bizhawk_sambos_santa_barbara_to_change_name_20200604

By any name, the restaurant at 216 W. Cabrillo Blvd in Santa Barbara is 
well worth making a point of visiting whenever you're passing through 
that part of California's coast.  The pancakes are truly awesome.



This is quite off-topic, and I hope this momentary indulgence in 
etymology and pancakes doesn't stray too close to cheese.


Back to our regularly-scheduled LiveCode discussion, where I'll post a 
question about the Browser widget next...


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Times ARE changing

[Richmond via use-livecode]

My best friend (in fact the only friend that has been consistently my 
friend for 58 years), Rohit Das, who was
born in Scotland in the same hospital as me, has Indian parents (and, in 
fact, he bides in India just now),
used to read Little Black Sambo with me, and we used to laugh together. 
We also went through all of Angela Banner's

other books in that series about Black Jumbo, Black Mumbo and so on.

Now my friend's skin is the same colour as that of Little Black Sambo. 
Neither he nor I (I was red-haired and
pink) were ever consious that we were laughing at anything promoting 
racial stereotypes. I remember I told my
Mum that I wanted to climb up a tree to see if that would attract tigers 
that would turn into butter.


I own the complete set of Angela Banner's books and fully intend to read 
them to any grandchildren who come along.
This could be fun as my younger son (3/8 Bulgarian, 1/8 Albanian, 3/8 
Scots, 1/8 English) looks set to marry a
wonderful young lady from California (1/2 Taiwan Chinese, 1/4 Jamaican 
Chinese, 1/4 Chigro); in all probability

producing kids that I will love to bits.

When I was 2 I asked my Mum what was wrong with me because my skin was 
not black like Rohit's.


If some of these types who go on endlessly about anything that might be 
vaguely construed as 'racist' were capable of
slightly more subtle thought they might examine intentions: after all if 
we all judged people on what they looked like most

of us would be out of a job and starving.

On 6.06.20 23:29, PEL via use-livecode wrote:

Children,

As you all remember, I did a lot of work with a certain nation-wide restaurant chain 
 in the 80s. 
I ate cherry pancakes at over 300 locations - including the original in Santa 
Barbara. I knew both “Sam” and “Bo”.

Back then the company fought fiercely to protect the name - which was composed 
of the founders: Sam Battistone and Newell “Bo” Bohnet. They pointed out, 
correctly, that “Little Black Sambo” was Indian, not African. And it was 
obvious that most protesters had not “read” the book.

Yet, recognizing that in our fact-free age, image counts a lot, the kids have 
made a good move. I think Sam and Bo would understand.

Suddenly I’m hungry for cherry pancakes… Road Trip to Santa Barbara, anyone?

Dad
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Re: Times ARE changing

[Paul Looney via use-livecode]

Correct. Sorry.

> On Jun 6, 2020, at 2:04 PM, doc hawk via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I don’t think this went whereto meant :)

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Re: Times ARE changing

[doc hawk via use-livecode]

On Jun 6, 2020, at 1:29 PM, PEL via use-livecode 
 wrote:

>  They pointed out, correctly, that “Little Black Sambo” was Indian, not 
> African. And it was obvious that most protesters had not “read” the book.


I don’t think this went whereto meant :)

However, skids, we thought Sambo was cool, and admired outwitting the tiger .. 
. . 
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Times ARE changing

[PEL via use-livecode]

Children,

As you all remember, I did a lot of work with a certain nation-wide restaurant 
chain  in 
the 80s. I ate cherry pancakes at over 300 locations - including the original 
in Santa Barbara. I knew both “Sam” and “Bo”.

Back then the company fought fiercely to protect the name - which was composed 
of the founders: Sam Battistone and Newell “Bo” Bohnet. They pointed out, 
correctly, that “Little Black Sambo” was Indian, not African. And it was 
obvious that most protesters had not “read” the book.

Yet, recognizing that in our fact-free age, image counts a lot, the kids have 
made a good move. I think Sam and Bo would understand.

Suddenly I’m hungry for cherry pancakes… Road Trip to Santa Barbara, anyone?

Dad
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