subject:"Wondering about LC and HTML5"

Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

As it appears more and more companies are starting to focus on HTML5 app
delivery, thus bypassing all sorts of App Stores (see:
http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/15/facebook-project-spartan/  AND excuse
reference to an MG Siegler written article! ;-).

This seems on the surface like a pretty decent strategy for many. Code once,
deliver everywhere. OK, so I know it's not that simple. But we all have
heard the story before. That's why we're here now. Still, a cursory overview
of the industry shows there is nothing as easy as LC for coding up HTML5
apps-- in fact, not even close.

Certainly, we all know LC plugins for browsers isn't the answer. It seems to
me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it takes
to export to HTML5. Andre, perhaps you may have an idea. Or anyone else. It
sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us in the future-- as more and
more clients are going to want to take their apps to the clouds. In fact,
many of the projects on my plate right now would benefit from a LC to HTML5
plugin.

If someone were to help LC write one, would anyone else be interested in
purchasing it? Inquiring minds would like to know ;-)

-- 
Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Paul Looney


Phil Davis?


On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

As it appears more and more companies are starting to focus on  
HTML5 app

delivery, thus bypassing all sorts of App Stores (see:
http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/15/facebook-project-spartan/  AND excuse
reference to an MG Siegler written article! ;-).

This seems on the surface like a pretty decent strategy for many.  
Code once,
deliver everywhere. OK, so I know it's not that simple. But we all  
have
heard the story before. That's why we're here now. Still, a cursory  
overview
of the industry shows there is nothing as easy as LC for coding up  
HTML5

apps-- in fact, not even close.

Certainly, we all know LC plugins for browsers isn't the answer. It  
seems to
me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what  
it takes
to export to HTML5. Andre, perhaps you may have an idea. Or anyone  
else. It
sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us in the future-- as  
more and
more clients are going to want to take their apps to the clouds. In  
fact,
many of the projects on my plate right now would benefit from a LC  
to HTML5

plugin.

If someone were to help LC write one, would anyone else be  
interested in

purchasing it? Inquiring minds would like to know ;-)

--
Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Phil Davis


On 6/20/11 4:30 PM, Paul Looney wrote:

Phil Davis?


Naaah - I know the guy pretty well and he's not up to the task. Maybe... Tereza 
Snyder?


Phil Davis




On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:


As it appears more and more companies are starting to focus on HTML5 app
delivery, thus bypassing all sorts of App Stores (see:
http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/15/facebook-project-spartan/  AND excuse
reference to an MG Siegler written article! ;-).

This seems on the surface like a pretty decent strategy for many. Code once,
deliver everywhere. OK, so I know it's not that simple. But we all have
heard the story before. That's why we're here now. Still, a cursory overview
of the industry shows there is nothing as easy as LC for coding up HTML5
apps-- in fact, not even close.

Certainly, we all know LC plugins for browsers isn't the answer. It seems to
me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it takes
to export to HTML5. Andre, perhaps you may have an idea. Or anyone else. It
sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us in the future-- as more and
more clients are going to want to take their apps to the clouds. In fact,
many of the projects on my plate right now would benefit from a LC to HTML5
plugin.

If someone were to help LC write one, would anyone else be interested in
purchasing it? Inquiring minds would like to know ;-)

--
Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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--
Phil Davis

PDS Labs
Professional Software Development
http://pdslabs.net


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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

I guess I'm not as concerned who codes it at this point, but rather is it
something needed? And if so, what are the challenges? Andre once started on
a javascript compiler for Rev, so he may know more about this.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Phil Davis  wrote:

> On 6/20/11 4:30 PM, Paul Looney wrote:
>
>> Phil Davis?
>>
>
> Naaah - I know the guy pretty well and he's not up to the task. Maybe...
> Tereza Snyder?
>
>
> Phil Davis
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
>>
>>  As it appears more and more companies are starting to focus on HTML5 app
>>> delivery, thus bypassing all sorts of App Stores (see:
>>> http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/**15/facebook-project-spartan/
>>>  AND excuse
>>> reference to an MG Siegler written article! ;-).
>>>
>>> This seems on the surface like a pretty decent strategy for many. Code
>>> once,
>>> deliver everywhere. OK, so I know it's not that simple. But we all have
>>> heard the story before. That's why we're here now. Still, a cursory
>>> overview
>>> of the industry shows there is nothing as easy as LC for coding up HTML5
>>> apps-- in fact, not even close.
>>>
>>> Certainly, we all know LC plugins for browsers isn't the answer. It seems
>>> to
>>> me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it
>>> takes
>>> to export to HTML5. Andre, perhaps you may have an idea. Or anyone else.
>>> It
>>> sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us in the future-- as more
>>> and
>>> more clients are going to want to take their apps to the clouds. In fact,
>>> many of the projects on my plate right now would benefit from a LC to
>>> HTML5
>>> plugin.
>>>
>>> If someone were to help LC write one, would anyone else be interested in
>>> purchasing it? Inquiring minds would like to know ;-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chipp Walters
>>> CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
>>> __**_
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>
>>
>> __**_
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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>>
>>
> --
> Phil Davis
>
> PDS Labs
> Professional Software Development
> http://pdslabs.net
>
>
>
> __**_
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>



-- 
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CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Mark Wieder

Chipp-

Monday, June 20, 2011, 3:21:56 PM, you wrote:

> It seems to
> me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it takes
> to export to HTML5.

Don't know about HTML5 (and maybe Andre can step in and say something
here as well), but having spent way too much time on rev->HTML
conversion, I can say that even with Ajax and css file help there are
some insurmountable problems without serious server-side help. These
problems fall under the general categories of lack of threading and
multiuser issues. FastCGI (when available) helps the multithreading
issue but exacerbates the variable namespace collision problem. Since
there aren't transactions in HTML you either end up in a situation
where you don't have persistent variables or multiple users clobber
each other's variables. Ugly stuff.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Andre Garzia

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Chipp Walters  wrote:

> I guess I'm not as concerned who codes it at this point, but rather is it
> something needed? And if so, what are the challenges? Andre once started on
> a javascript compiler for Rev, so he may know more about this.
>
>
The project is called RevImpossible and it is a slow movement towards a rev
to javascript compilerright now it is simpler but it is usable, it does
not translate code but it can already work on layout.




> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Phil Davis  wrote:
>
> > On 6/20/11 4:30 PM, Paul Looney wrote:
> >
> >> Phil Davis?
> >>
> >
> > Naaah - I know the guy pretty well and he's not up to the task. Maybe...
> > Tereza Snyder?
> >
> >
> > Phil Davis
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
> >>
> >>  As it appears more and more companies are starting to focus on HTML5
> app
> >>> delivery, thus bypassing all sorts of App Stores (see:
> >>> http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/**15/facebook-project-spartan/<
> http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/15/facebook-project-spartan/> AND excuse
> >>> reference to an MG Siegler written article! ;-).
> >>>
> >>> This seems on the surface like a pretty decent strategy for many. Code
> >>> once,
> >>> deliver everywhere. OK, so I know it's not that simple. But we all have
> >>> heard the story before. That's why we're here now. Still, a cursory
> >>> overview
> >>> of the industry shows there is nothing as easy as LC for coding up
> HTML5
> >>> apps-- in fact, not even close.
> >>>
> >>> Certainly, we all know LC plugins for browsers isn't the answer. It
> seems
> >>> to
> >>> me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it
> >>> takes
> >>> to export to HTML5. Andre, perhaps you may have an idea. Or anyone
> else.
> >>> It
> >>> sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us in the future-- as
> more
> >>> and
> >>> more clients are going to want to take their apps to the clouds. In
> fact,
> >>> many of the projects on my plate right now would benefit from a LC to
> >>> HTML5
> >>> plugin.
> >>>
> >>> If someone were to help LC write one, would anyone else be interested
> in
> >>> purchasing it? Inquiring minds would like to know ;-)
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Chipp Walters
> >>> CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
> >>> __**_
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >>> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecode<
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> __**_
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecode<
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > Phil Davis
> >
> > PDS Labs
> > Professional Software Development
> > http://pdslabs.net
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecode<
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chipp Walters
> CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Andre Garzia

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Chipp-
>
> Monday, June 20, 2011, 3:21:56 PM, you wrote:
>
> > It seems to
> > me it would be a good idea for LC or someone else to evaluate what it
> takes
> > to export to HTML5.
>
> Don't know about HTML5 (and maybe Andre can step in and say something
> here as well), but having spent way too much time on rev->HTML
> conversion, I can say that even with Ajax and css file help there are
> some insurmountable problems without serious server-side help. These
> problems fall under the general categories of lack of threading and
> multiuser issues. FastCGI (when available) helps the multithreading
> issue but exacerbates the variable namespace collision problem. Since
> there aren't transactions in HTML you either end up in a situation
> where you don't have persistent variables or multiple users clobber
> each other's variables. Ugly stuff.
>
>
been there as well, I am circunventing the problem by not trying to solve
it. Desktop code is not portable to server environment but if you start from
the server point of view from the beggining then it is possible.


> --
> -Mark Wieder
>  mwie...@ahsoftware.net
>
>
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

Well, I talked with Chris. He said he remembers years ago someone built or
started to build a language tree parser for Rev so they could transcode
Transcript to another language. Once a Transcript language parser is
created, you can move it to other languages-- or so the theory goes.

Chris imagined it would take a couple weeks to do such a thing, assuming not
all tokens were supported, just the main stuff. Of course, language
conversion is only a small part of the problem. I'm thinking one would want
to adopt an Open Source set of Javascript controls and convert them to
DropTools, so they match exactly the look/feel/size of the real thing. Then
each would have a custom inspector which set the properties and methods.

And there needs to be some sort of MVC framework put in place (libraries?).
Still, according to Chris, he believes a lot of what you need to do can all
be done client-side in Javascript-- at least that's a good place to start. I
can imagine a proof of concept HyperCard like demonstration, with different
gui widgets and some biz logic, all running local.

It is food for thought...
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

Perhaps it's wise to consider an oft-quoted famous statement by
Wayne Gretzky, "I don't skate to where the puck is. I skate to where it's
going to be."

Let's count the number of OS'es now in need of support from multi plaftform
IDEs:

   1. MacOS Tiger, Lion and who knows what previous versions
   2. Windows 7 and soon 8, not to mention 2000, XP and Vista still in use
   3. iOS (iPad and iPhone)
   4. Android and the many different flavors and versions it has for both
   phone and tablet.
   5. HP's new WebOS
   6. Doesn't Blackberry have a tablet OS?
   7. ChromeOS and Chromebook
   8. Linux and it's many different flavors
   9. I'm sure I'm missing some

Now the number of mainstream browsers:

   1. Internet Explorer (I see where Google just end of lifed support of it
   in Gmail and Google Apps)
   2. Chrome
   3. Safari
   4. Firefox

It appears to me, the browsers are consolidating much quicker than any of
the OS'es. In fact, the OS'es are all competing with each other by
highlighting the differences, something the browsers have to be much more
careful about.

Assuming HTML5 becomes decently stable and robust AND capable, doesn't it
make more sense to target it as a delivery platform rather than having to
contingency plan for the constantly moving target which the various OS'es
represent? And, that's the real problem with most OS'es today-- they are all
basically the same. Sure, some are prettier, others more safe, but they all
provide the basic same functions.

In fact, what is more interesting to me is seeing how Apple had to actually
reset OS expectations with the iPad. Let's be honest, the OS on iPad is way
behind in terms of functionality. No true multi-tasking. The interface has
been dumbed down considerably yet see how EASY they are to use. And Jobs
knows that EASE OF USE translates into sales. The first Mac 128 cold booted
in under 30 seconds. My Mac and Windows machines take many minutes. Don't
get me started about how feature creep has ruined countless applications--
MS Word primary among them. I can get 99% of what I need done word
processing-wise using the MacWrite like GDocs. Adding features on top of
features on top of features is just confusing everyone.

One thing about Chromebook-- EVERYONE knows instantly how to use it. Turn it
on and it's just a browser. I don't care whether it's Linux, Debian, MacOS,
Windows or your mothers cupcake under the hood-- it just works.

So, if we focus on where the puck WILL be-- is it fair to say it's headed in
the direction of HTML5 web apps? I dunno, but it is interesting to
consider
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

I should have said Google just end-of-life support for IE 7 in Google Apps,
include Gmail.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Chipp Walters  wrote:

> Perhaps it's wise to consider an oft-quoted famous statement by
> Wayne Gretzky, "I don't skate to where the puck is. I skate to where it's
> going to be."
>
> Let's count the number of OS'es now in need of support from multi plaftform
> IDEs:
>
>1. MacOS Tiger, Lion and who knows what previous versions
>2. Windows 7 and soon 8, not to mention 2000, XP and Vista still in use
>3. iOS (iPad and iPhone)
>4. Android and the many different flavors and versions it has for both
>phone and tablet.
>5. HP's new WebOS
>6. Doesn't Blackberry have a tablet OS?
>7. ChromeOS and Chromebook
>8. Linux and it's many different flavors
>9. I'm sure I'm missing some
>
> Now the number of mainstream browsers:
>
>1. Internet Explorer (I see where Google just end of lifed support of
>it in Gmail and Google Apps)
>2. Chrome
>3. Safari
>4. Firefox
>
> It appears to me, the browsers are consolidating much quicker than any of
> the OS'es. In fact, the OS'es are all competing with each other by
> highlighting the differences, something the browsers have to be much more
> careful about.
>
> Assuming HTML5 becomes decently stable and robust AND capable, doesn't it
> make more sense to target it as a delivery platform rather than having to
> contingency plan for the constantly moving target which the various OS'es
> represent? And, that's the real problem with most OS'es today-- they are all
> basically the same. Sure, some are prettier, others more safe, but they all
> provide the basic same functions.
>
> In fact, what is more interesting to me is seeing how Apple had to actually
> reset OS expectations with the iPad. Let's be honest, the OS on iPad is way
> behind in terms of functionality. No true multi-tasking. The interface has
> been dumbed down considerably yet see how EASY they are to use. And Jobs
> knows that EASE OF USE translates into sales. The first Mac 128 cold booted
> in under 30 seconds. My Mac and Windows machines take many minutes. Don't
> get me started about how feature creep has ruined countless applications--
> MS Word primary among them. I can get 99% of what I need done word
> processing-wise using the MacWrite like GDocs. Adding features on top of
> features on top of features is just confusing everyone.
>
> One thing about Chromebook-- EVERYONE knows instantly how to use it. Turn
> it on and it's just a browser. I don't care whether it's Linux, Debian,
> MacOS, Windows or your mothers cupcake under the hood-- it just works.
>
> So, if we focus on where the puck WILL be-- is it fair to say it's headed
> in the direction of HTML5 web apps? I dunno, but it is interesting to
> consider
>



-- 
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CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Andre Garzia

Chipp,

I tried that but I couldn't build the language tree parser, so I started
coding from the other point, assuming there would be a parser, I started
coding the javascript parts to be used by the parser/converter once it was
done but when I lost my HD I lost basically everything. Both my main machine
and my backup fried at the same time, so, it was lost but it is not hard to
recreate again.

I have a new project now (I still call it revImpossible) but instead of
focusing on translating LC to JS, I am focusing more on the workflow and
helpers and eventually I will get to the translating part.

:-D

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Chipp Walters  wrote:

> Well, I talked with Chris. He said he remembers years ago someone built or
> started to build a language tree parser for Rev so they could transcode
> Transcript to another language. Once a Transcript language parser is
> created, you can move it to other languages-- or so the theory goes.
>
> Chris imagined it would take a couple weeks to do such a thing, assuming
> not
> all tokens were supported, just the main stuff. Of course, language
> conversion is only a small part of the problem. I'm thinking one would want
> to adopt an Open Source set of Javascript controls and convert them to
> DropTools, so they match exactly the look/feel/size of the real thing. Then
> each would have a custom inspector which set the properties and methods.
>
> And there needs to be some sort of MVC framework put in place (libraries?).
> Still, according to Chris, he believes a lot of what you need to do can all
> be done client-side in Javascript-- at least that's a good place to start.
> I
> can imagine a proof of concept HyperCard like demonstration, with different
> gui widgets and some biz logic, all running local.
>
> It is food for thought...
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Terry Vogelaar

Hi Chipp,

You bring up some interesting points. But still, in my opinion, HTML5 is (as of 
now) too limited. In spite of everything Apple is trying to say about it, it is 
not a standard. And considering the approach it is taking, it never will be. 
What I mean is that there is still room to add features to it; a stage that 
would have been over if it was in beta. Still, the entire industry wants to use 
it. Which results in a muddy, half-baked product. 

Yes, I agree that the puck is going to be there eventually. But what needs to 
happen first is some decision-making about what gets included in the standard, 
and what is shifted to HTML6. And that is a scary step to take, because it 
means excluding functionality, and thus limiting possibilities for web app 
developers.

Sorry, I love HTML5 and use it as much as I can. But I also passionately hate 
it. It is all going too slow and too fast at the same time, if you get what I 
mean.

Back to the subject: should LiveCode move towards being a web app development 
environment? I truly don't know. I like the idea. But it also means there is a 
major change in the way LiveCode works. It is proud to be compile-free, 
breaking the development cycle of editing, compiling, running and debugging. If 
however the code is being translated to something else like HTML5, there HAS TO 
BE a compile step. The code that is used (HTML, CSS, JS, PHP) differs from the 
code that is written (LiveCode). Which makes debugging a living hell. You'll 
end up changing the HTML5 files manually, and that is exactly what you tried to 
avoid. Otherwise you would have started using HTML5 right away instead of using 
LiveCode first. 

If there are people who pursued this dream further than any of us, it would be 
Jerry Daniels and Sarah Reichelt. With their Rodeo product they accomplished 
exactly what you describe: a development environment to use LiveCode-like input 
and convert it to a fully functional web app. It isn't my cup of tea, for 
exactly the reasons I mentioned above. But they made a fine product. I agree 
with what Andre Garcia wrote: "Desktop code is not portable to server 
environment but if you start from the server point of view from the beginning 
then it is possible." Jerry and Sarah started from the server point of view; 
they succeeded. Does this mean that every LiveCode project can become a web 
app? Absolutely not.

If I judge based on the keynote on WWDC'11, Apple seems to actually be moving 
away from web apps, moving towards standalone apps. For me, that is indicating 
that, although Apple is pushing HTML5 forward, the puck is not there yet. It 
will be. With a time span of a few years and a puck constantly moving, the puck 
will be on every spot of the playing field at some point in time. Does that 
mean it is wise to stand still or perhaps move in whatever direction we feel 
like? I don't think so; it is wise to go to the spot where it will be when we 
can hit it the soonest. Translated to our situation, it means that we envision 
how long it will take for us to get the job done, and figure out whether HTML5 
will be ready enough to deliver. If your project is a stunning website, the 
answer is: go for it, you will love HTML5. If it is an application, I wouldn't 
hold my breath.

Terry

Op 21 jun. 2011, om 04:10 heeft use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com het 
volgende geschreven:

> Perhaps it's wise to consider an oft-quoted famous statement by
> Wayne Gretzky, "I don't skate to where the puck is. I skate to where it's
> going to be."
> 
> Let's count the number of OS'es now in need of support from multi plaftform
> IDEs:
> 
>   1. MacOS Tiger, Lion and who knows what previous versions
>   2. Windows 7 and soon 8, not to mention 2000, XP and Vista still in use
>   3. iOS (iPad and iPhone)
>   4. Android and the many different flavors and versions it has for both
>   phone and tablet.
>   5. HP's new WebOS
>   6. Doesn't Blackberry have a tablet OS?
>   7. ChromeOS and Chromebook
>   8. Linux and it's many different flavors
>   9. I'm sure I'm missing some
> 
> Now the number of mainstream browsers:
> 
>   1. Internet Explorer (I see where Google just end of lifed support of it
>   in Gmail and Google Apps)
>   2. Chrome
>   3. Safari
>   4. Firefox
> 
> It appears to me, the browsers are consolidating much quicker than any of
> the OS'es. In fact, the OS'es are all competing with each other by
> highlighting the differences, something the browsers have to be much more
> careful about.
> 
> Assuming HTML5 becomes decently stable and robust AND capable, doesn't it
> make more sense to target it as a delivery platform rather than having to
> contingency plan for the constantly moving target which the various OS'es
> represent? And, that's the real problem with most OS'es today-- they are all
> basically the same. Sure, some are prettier, others more safe, but they all
> provide the basic same functions.
> 
> In fact, what is more interesting to me is seeing h

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Andre Garzia

Folks,

I just can't resist, this thread is just too good.

Here is a movie I just recorded:
http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.mp4
http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.webm

As I said, the trick is to start by thinking that you are building a web
page, not a stack. In this little demo video, I show a simple web layout
stack with graphics, patterns, images, text and buttons. RevImpossible
converts this stack to a valid web page. I show the page and the source code
for the page. It is all very clean.

I am not yet converting code of any type, right now my focus is to convert
the layout. After the layout is right, I have a plan about doing the coding
part but don't expect to script a desktop stack and magically have it on the
server, that is not how it will work. My idea is that the stack script will
become a RevServer page. Some controls will RPC back to the server. Right
now I will not attempt conversions into JS.

RevImpossible is just a way to code a whole website from inside LiveCode
IDE, it is not a desktop to web converter. It will make each card into its
own page. It will output stack script and card script as server side
components. It will remove the compile cycle since RevImpossible is powered
by RevOnRockets so it works from inside the IDE itself while you are coding,
you tweek your layout and code and refresh the browser, just that. When
happy, you export the whole thing and upload it.

RevImpossible does not attempt to be a way to build full web portals or make
the new google, it is a quick way to prototype sites and to create small
medium websites.

and no, it is not ready, I named it RevImpossible for a reason, but it is
going places...

I will shortly begin fundraising campaings for this project and others. This
will be a commercial project but those that contribute during the
fundraising for development period will receive big discounts and even full
licenses once it is released. More details to come during the next days...
(I am using RevImpossible to create the RevImpossible page...)

:-D
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

Terry,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. A couple of thoughts crossed my mind
while reading it.

Years ago, in a former life, I used to attend various CEO conferences. At
one of them, I had a chance to visit with Eric Schmidt, now of Google, but
then he was with Sun. We got to talking about Java, the topic of the day. My
comment to him was, as a multimedia company, we had evaluated Java and
determined it was too slow and too abstracted to do any meaningful
development with. He remarked, yes, he already knew this. But more important
than the reality of what Java currently was, is the expectation and
perception of what it will be. His point to me was the perception is more
important the the nuts and bolts of reality.

I think the same is true for HTML5.

When a client says they want an HTML5 application, most don't really know
what it is they want, nor do they know the trade-offs which may be necessary
to provide a lowest common denominator application. But they do know they
need it to run on the web, and on browsers connected to iPads and Androids
and Macs and PCs. As a strategy component for the client, and even more
importantly for us developers, we MUST have a RAD tool for HTML5 apps-- or
if not HTML5, then AJAXy "look like application and not websites" apps. Most
clients don't know the difference. If we don't heed this, my guess is we
will run out of clients and projects as they end up moving to the web or
isolated platforms.

The other key point is perhaps a lesson learned from Jerry and Sarah. Here
in Austin, I see Jerry often. In fact I'm having lunch with him tomorrow.
One thing Jerry always understood when he developed applications, is to
start simple. His RodeoApps did just that. I'm saying we do the same. Start
by creating a card and a button with a home icon...and go from there.

That said, RodeoApps is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a
subscription based model where all code lives on a server. HTML5 allows for
caching. I actually suggesting the opposite approach, where you start on the
client and load an HTML5 app there and do simple things. Just like Rev.
Early on, it only did simple things-- even now you can't code Photoshop or
MS Word in it. I'm thinking the same with an HTML5 plugin approach.

I get it there will be some hurdles, and one of them will have to be a
compile (translate) first approach-- not unlike many other IDE's including
our own LC iOS plugin. Still, the time is now, not AFTER all HTML5 problems
are worked out-- or pushed out to HTML6. Sorta like the guy who never bought
a TV because he was waiting for the new and better one to come out in just a
few months.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Chipp Walters

Andre,

Very nice! Of course your challenge will be how to add a geometry manager to
the stack-- and the resulting website! It might be interesting to have it
pop out a WordPress theme ;-)

Good stuff for sure. I look forward to hearing more about it.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Andre Garzia wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I just can't resist, this thread is just too good.
>
> Here is a movie I just recorded:
> http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.mp4
> http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.webm
>
> As I said, the trick is to start by thinking that you are building a web
> page, not a stack. In this little demo video, I show a simple web layout
> stack with graphics, patterns, images, text and buttons. RevImpossible
> converts this stack to a valid web page. I show the page and the source
> code
> for the page. It is all very clean.
>
> I am not yet converting code of any type, right now my focus is to convert
> the layout. After the layout is right, I have a plan about doing the coding
> part but don't expect to script a desktop stack and magically have it on
> the
> server, that is not how it will work. My idea is that the stack script will
> become a RevServer page. Some controls will RPC back to the server. Right
> now I will not attempt conversions into JS.
>
> RevImpossible is just a way to code a whole website from inside LiveCode
> IDE, it is not a desktop to web converter. It will make each card into its
> own page. It will output stack script and card script as server side
> components. It will remove the compile cycle since RevImpossible is powered
> by RevOnRockets so it works from inside the IDE itself while you are
> coding,
> you tweek your layout and code and refresh the browser, just that. When
> happy, you export the whole thing and upload it.
>
> RevImpossible does not attempt to be a way to build full web portals or
> make
> the new google, it is a quick way to prototype sites and to create small
> medium websites.
>
> and no, it is not ready, I named it RevImpossible for a reason, but it is
> going places...
>
> I will shortly begin fundraising campaings for this project and others.
> This
> will be a commercial project but those that contribute during the
> fundraising for development period will receive big discounts and even full
> licenses once it is released. More details to come during the next days...
> (I am using RevImpossible to create the RevImpossible page...)
>
> :-D
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>



-- 
Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Andre Garzia

Chipp,

You know what? I already have part of the geometry manager somewhat working.
You can see that rectangle graphics, it has a geometry setting for absolute
position on the right side, I use that as a hint that the given object
should have width: 100% instead of its actual width... it is all about
hints

In the movie the graphic fills 100% of the container. The webpage is set to
1000px wide, so the content is centered with a div.

The hard part of geometry is the whole "stay 20 pixels from this control"
thing... One thing at a time!

I am glad you liked it. :-)

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Chipp Walters  wrote:

> Andre,
>
> Very nice! Of course your challenge will be how to add a geometry manager
> to
> the stack-- and the resulting website! It might be interesting to have it
> pop out a WordPress theme ;-)
>
> Good stuff for sure. I look forward to hearing more about it.
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Andre Garzia  >wrote:
>
> > Folks,
> >
> > I just can't resist, this thread is just too good.
> >
> > Here is a movie I just recorded:
> > http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.mp4
> > http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.webm
> >
> > As I said, the trick is to start by thinking that you are building a web
> > page, not a stack. In this little demo video, I show a simple web layout
> > stack with graphics, patterns, images, text and buttons. RevImpossible
> > converts this stack to a valid web page. I show the page and the source
> > code
> > for the page. It is all very clean.
> >
> > I am not yet converting code of any type, right now my focus is to
> convert
> > the layout. After the layout is right, I have a plan about doing the
> coding
> > part but don't expect to script a desktop stack and magically have it on
> > the
> > server, that is not how it will work. My idea is that the stack script
> will
> > become a RevServer page. Some controls will RPC back to the server. Right
> > now I will not attempt conversions into JS.
> >
> > RevImpossible is just a way to code a whole website from inside LiveCode
> > IDE, it is not a desktop to web converter. It will make each card into
> its
> > own page. It will output stack script and card script as server side
> > components. It will remove the compile cycle since RevImpossible is
> powered
> > by RevOnRockets so it works from inside the IDE itself while you are
> > coding,
> > you tweek your layout and code and refresh the browser, just that. When
> > happy, you export the whole thing and upload it.
> >
> > RevImpossible does not attempt to be a way to build full web portals or
> > make
> > the new google, it is a quick way to prototype sites and to create small
> > medium websites.
> >
> > and no, it is not ready, I named it RevImpossible for a reason, but it is
> > going places...
> >
> > I will shortly begin fundraising campaings for this project and others.
> > This
> > will be a commercial project but those that contribute during the
> > fundraising for development period will receive big discounts and even
> full
> > licenses once it is released. More details to come during the next
> days...
> > (I am using RevImpossible to create the RevImpossible page...)
> >
> > :-D
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chipp Walters
> CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
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> subscription preferences:
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-- 
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-20 Thread Pierre Sahores

I don't expect that some "LiveCard" HC equivalent will ever help us to build 
professional grade HTML5/CSS3 LC powered client-side apps. On the other hand, 
in about server-side LC-server driven apps, i expect that a full revamped set 
of htmltext and unicode LC-engine features would greatly help us to improve the 
ways we could design and code very usable new kind of LC-based n-tier solutions.

Le 21 juin 2011 à 03:22, Andre Garzia a écrit :

> been there as well, I am circunventing the problem by not trying to solve
> it. Desktop code is not portable to server environment but if you start from
> the server point of view from the beggining then it is possible.

Kind regards,
--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70

www.wrds.com
www.sahores-conseil.com





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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Richard Gaskin


Chipp Walters wrote:


So, if we focus on where the puck WILL be-- is it fair to say it's headed in
the direction of HTML5 web apps? I dunno, but it is interesting to
consider


One of the aspects of the current RunRev product line that may be easy 
to forget is that they're all essentially the same engine, if-def'd for 
each platform.  One code base, many platforms, so enhancements made for 
one platform often wind up benefiting others, sometimes all of them.


In contrast, HTML (4, 5, or any other version) is based around a very 
different object model and to use it for anything but the most trivial 
pages depends heavily on CSS and JavaScript as well.


Providing robust support for for a DOM-based system like HTML/CSS/JS 
would be a radical departure from everything the company has done to 
date.  Unlike other new product initiatives, HTML/CSS/JS support would 
require the development of a whole new engine to do as well as the 
things the current RunRev lineup offers using the engine they have.


It's very easy to work with the DOM from JavaScript, and very difficult 
to do with LiveCode.


That said, one of the most useful things about CSS, JS, and HTML is that 
they're all just plain text, and LiveCode is unusually adept and 
manipulating text.


I've ported some LiveCode apps to the web, and with new versions of my 
WebMerge product I'm expanding on those systems quite a bit.


But I don't attempt to translate code.  Too much work.  There are so 
many great resources for learning JavaScript, and the language itself is 
reasonably sensible and kinda fun to use, that translation carries a 
very low ROI (usually negative).


In the 21st century, not learning JavaScript is IMNSHO the biggest 
mistake any software consultant can make.  Given the ubiquity of the 
web, the fact that JavaScript is the only native language browsers 
provide, and the many millions being poured into enhancing its 
performance and capabilities by Apple, Microsoft, Google, and others, 
there's no reason not to become competent with it.


Besides, as numerous studies show, learning new things keeps the mind 
nimble and helps prevent some of the cognitive effects of aging. :)


So my own approach is very much like Andre's, using LiveCode for its GUI 
strengths but avoiding the tilting-at-windmills of language/object model 
translation.


I've been advocating this model here for many years:


There's a lot that can be done with LiveCode to build toolkits to assist 
with production of web apps, but the client-side business logic and 
interactivity in those apps is best served by writing native JavaScript.


It's not hard to learn, and it can be a lot of fun.  The tools and 
resources for learning it are completely free and widely available.


Sure, it's a bit of a mind-bender when you first get started, esp. 
coming from an xTalk background.  But what isn't?  Riding a bicycle was 
very difficult for me to get past my training wheels when I was five, 
but it's given me a lifetime of liberation and enjoyment.  Everything in 
life worth doing has a learning curve, and flexing the learning muscle 
is healthy exercise.


Dive in - the water's fine. :)

If anyone here wants a "JavaScript as a second language for xTalkers" 
tutorial I've been keeping notes on my own learning curve and would be 
willing to take a stab at providing an article at LiveCode Journal.


But really, you don't need it.  There's a LOT of good JS stuff out 
there.  This is one of the best, with excellent reference materials 
complimented by interactive exercises for nearly every topic:



To help put the parts into perspective the Head First series from 
O'Reilly is a good start, and their JavaScript book is as good as their 
Statistics and others in the series:



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv


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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Richard Gaskin


Andre Garzia wrote:


I just can't resist, this thread is just too good.

Here is a movie I just recorded:
http://andregarzia.com/movies/revimpossible.mp4


Is that Gnome 3?  Which distro are you using?

Looks nice.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Andre Garzia

Richard,

That is Fedora 15 running Gnome 3.0. It is very good and it will replace Mac
OS X as my main machine as soon as we get feature parity between the
platforms (revBrowser, I am looking at you).

I am running vanilla Fedora 15, with no tweaks or anything, just the plain
OS. I've installed LiveCode and couple other tools.

:-D



On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> Andre Garzia wrote:
>
>  I just can't resist, this thread is just too good.
>>
>> Here is a movie I just recorded:
>> http://andregarzia.com/movies/**revimpossible.mp4
>>
>
> Is that Gnome 3?  Which distro are you using?
>
> Looks nice.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World
>  LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
>  Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
>  LiveCode Journal blog: 
> http://LiveCodejournal.com/**blog.irv
>
> __**_
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>



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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Michael Kann

Richard and Friends,

Thank you for the stimulating discussion on this thread. I'll throw in some 
ideas from the cheap seats.

First, I love you guys and gals to death but it is reality that Livecoders will 
never be able to compete with the people writing and maintaining the popular 
javascript libraries. That puck moves too fast even for The Great One. Trying 
to pump out cutting edge HTML5/CSS/Javascript using Livecode is a treadmill you 
don't want to be on.

I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website, with the 
css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your desktop you isolate all 
the parts that are "personal" to the webpage; basically everything you want to 
replace with your own material. Out goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin 
Consulting becomes Kann Consulting. 

Just a thought,

Mike

--- On Tue, 6/21/11, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

From: Richard Gaskin 
Subject: Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 10:14 AM

Chipp Walters wrote:

> So, if we focus on where the puck WILL be-- is it fair to say it's headed in
> the direction of HTML5 web apps? I dunno, but it is interesting to
> consider

One of the aspects of the current RunRev product line that may be easy to 
forget is that they're all essentially the same engine, if-def'd for each 
platform.  One code base, many platforms, so enhancements made for one platform 
often wind up benefiting others, sometimes all of them.

In contrast, HTML (4, 5, or any other version) is based around a very different 
object model and to use it for anything but the most trivial pages depends 
heavily on CSS and JavaScript as well.

Providing robust support for for a DOM-based system like HTML/CSS/JS would be a 
radical departure from everything the company has done to date.  Unlike other 
new product initiatives, HTML/CSS/JS support would require the development of a 
whole new engine to do as well as the things the current RunRev lineup offers 
using the engine they have.

It's very easy to work with the DOM from JavaScript, and very difficult to do 
with LiveCode.

That said, one of the most useful things about CSS, JS, and HTML is that 
they're all just plain text, and LiveCode is unusually adept and manipulating 
text.

I've ported some LiveCode apps to the web, and with new versions of my WebMerge 
product I'm expanding on those systems quite a bit.

But I don't attempt to translate code.  Too much work.  There are so many great 
resources for learning JavaScript, and the language itself is reasonably 
sensible and kinda fun to use, that translation carries a very low ROI (usually 
negative).

In the 21st century, not learning JavaScript is IMNSHO the biggest mistake any 
software consultant can make.  Given the ubiquity of the web, the fact that 
JavaScript is the only native language browsers provide, and the many millions 
being poured into enhancing its performance and capabilities by Apple, 
Microsoft, Google, and others, there's no reason not to become competent with 
it.

Besides, as numerous studies show, learning new things keeps the mind nimble 
and helps prevent some of the cognitive effects of aging. :)

So my own approach is very much like Andre's, using LiveCode for its GUI 
strengths but avoiding the tilting-at-windmills of language/object model 
translation.

I've been advocating this model here for many years:
<http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2006-June/083956.html>

There's a lot that can be done with LiveCode to build toolkits to assist with 
production of web apps, but the client-side business logic and interactivity in 
those apps is best served by writing native JavaScript.

It's not hard to learn, and it can be a lot of fun.  The tools and resources 
for learning it are completely free and widely available.

Sure, it's a bit of a mind-bender when you first get started, esp. coming from 
an xTalk background.  But what isn't?  Riding a bicycle was very difficult for 
me to get past my training wheels when I was five, but it's given me a lifetime 
of liberation and enjoyment.  Everything in life worth doing has a learning 
curve, and flexing the learning muscle is healthy exercise.

Dive in - the water's fine. :)

If anyone here wants a "JavaScript as a second language for xTalkers" tutorial 
I've been keeping notes on my own learning curve and would be willing to take a 
stab at providing an article at LiveCode Journal.

But really, you don't need it.  There's a LOT of good JS stuff out there.  This 
is one of the best, with excellent reference materials complimented by 
interactive exercises for nearly every topic:
<http://www.w3schools.com/>

To help put the parts into perspective the Head First series from O'Reilly is a 
good start, and their JavaScript book is a

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Bob Sneidar

I tried a dBase to LC code converter as my first project. I abandoned it 
because there were tokens like $ and & that both languages used, but meant 
totally different things. Also, dBase (or super sets of dBase) use a thing 
called Macro substitution for which there is no equivalent in LC. Finally, some 
tokens in dBase mean different things depending on where they are used, and in 
what context. 

All of this made a language tree parser seem almost insurmountable, and as I am 
really just a hobbyist developer, I could see that it was a whole lot of work 
for very little benefit. 

Bob


On Jun 20, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Well, I talked with Chris. He said he remembers years ago someone built or
> started to build a language tree parser for Rev so they could transcode
> Transcript to another language. Once a Transcript language parser is
> created, you can move it to other languages-- or so the theory goes.
> 
> Chris imagined it would take a couple weeks to do such a thing, assuming not
> all tokens were supported, just the main stuff. Of course, language
> conversion is only a small part of the problem. I'm thinking one would want
> to adopt an Open Source set of Javascript controls and convert them to
> DropTools, so they match exactly the look/feel/size of the real thing. Then
> each would have a custom inspector which set the properties and methods.
> 
> And there needs to be some sort of MVC framework put in place (libraries?).
> Still, according to Chris, he believes a lot of what you need to do can all
> be done client-side in Javascript-- at least that's a good place to start. I
> can imagine a proof of concept HyperCard like demonstration, with different
> gui widgets and some biz logic, all running local.
> 
> It is food for thought...
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Bob Sneidar

Actually there is a compile step. The beauty is that it happens in the dev 
environment as the app is running, and only to script objects that have been 
edited. Try to execute an uncompiled script and it will run like the previously 
compiled script. 

However, we are talking about a conversion not just of code, but of all the GUI 
elements as well. So yeah, there would have to be an edit-conversion-test 
cycle, unless the conversion was so incredibly clean that you could be sure 
that if it ran in LiveCode it would run as HTML5. 

But I don't see how that could be, especially if you look at the code I write! 
I think everyone with any experience in LC development can attest to the really 
odd structure and syntax they at times are forced to use to solve certain 
problems. 

I don't think you will see this kind of translator any time soon, if ever. 

Bob

On Jun 20, 2011, at 9:47 PM, Terry Vogelaar wrote:

> Back to the subject: should LiveCode move towards being a web app development 
> environment? I truly don't know. I like the idea. But it also means there is 
> a major change in the way LiveCode works. It is proud to be compile-free, 
> breaking the development cycle of editing, compiling, running and debugging. 
> If however the code is being translated to something else like HTML5, there 
> HAS TO BE a compile step.

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Pierre Sahores

Chipp,

I just have to follow Richard, Andre, ... on this.

The way i implement HTML5/CSS3/JS in my LC-server driven apps is not really 
complex at all and no far from funny to the end, something in between the 
feelings we had, as kids, in playing Lego and Meccano :D

I use HTML templates build on top of, in between other possible choices, the 
very simple to learn "Fluid 960GS" HTML/CSS/JQuery template framework :



About CSS, i use the CSSEdit 2 editor (Mac only) available there :



and the Stylizer app (Mac only) when i find on the web an interesting HTML/CSS 
template i want to learn about :



To the end, the LC-server xtalk code handle 95% of the final app logic and we 
just need to care about HTML/CSS/JS for the last 5%, and best, full reusable 
from an app to an other.

I don't think that having LC handling those 5% would help us at all, because 
the collision's troubles we could get in this way because HTMLText, Unicode 
glichies and more.

Just put the hand inside alike the first time you did with (wind)surfing or 
bicycle... The first steep will be a little unfriendly but after a week you 
will like to save lots of time in combining the power of LC with the primitive 
ways HTML5/CSS3/JS can be handle ;-)

Do you know that Danny Goodman is a long time Javascript unconditional fan ?

Best,

Pierre


Le 21 juin 2011 à 17:14, Richard Gaskin a écrit :

> That said, one of the most useful things about CSS, JS, and HTML is that 
> they're all just plain text, and LiveCode is unusually adept and manipulating 
> text.
> 
> I've ported some LiveCode apps to the web, and with new versions of my 
> WebMerge product I'm expanding on those systems quite a bit.
> 
> But I don't attempt to translate code.  Too much work.  There are so many 
> great resources for learning JavaScript, and the language itself is 
> reasonably sensible and kinda fun to use, that translation carries a very low 
> ROI (usually negative).
> 
> In the 21st century, not learning JavaScript is IMNSHO the biggest mistake 
> any software consultant can make.  Given the ubiquity of the web, the fact 
> that JavaScript is the only native language browsers provide, and the many 
> millions being poured into enhancing its performance and capabilities by 
> Apple, Microsoft, Google, and others, there's no reason not to become 
> competent with it.
> 
> Besides, as numerous studies show, learning new things keeps the mind nimble 
> and helps prevent some of the cognitive effects of aging. :)
> 
> So my own approach is very much like Andre's, using LiveCode for its GUI 
> strengths but avoiding the tilting-at-windmills of language/object model 
> translation.
> 
> I've been advocating this model here for many years:
> 
> 
> There's a lot that can be done with LiveCode to build toolkits to assist with 
> production of web apps, but the client-side business logic and interactivity 
> in those apps is best served by writing native JavaScript.
> 
> It's not hard to learn, and it can be a lot of fun.  The tools and resources 
> for learning it are completely free and widely available.

--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70

www.wrds.com
www.sahores-conseil.com





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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Terry Vogelaar

Hi Chipp,

This sheds some other light upon this topic. I think the reason why it is such 
a torture to work with HTML5 is the lack of a good RAD tool. The guy who 
figures out how to do that, is a soon to be rich guy. A development environment 
with the ease of use LiveCode offers, that makes behind the curtains all it's 
HTML and CSS and PHP and JS that just works, so there is almost no temptation 
to take a look under the hood, is the dream of a few million web developers, 
including me. Sounds a whole lot better than what I currently need to do to 
make a web page, which mainly involves inspecting elements in Safari a few 100 
times.

Michael Kann wrote that Livecoders will never be able to compete with the 
people writing and maintaining the popular javascript libraries. I kind of 
agree, except that they lack ease of use. It really is a pain to learn how to 
use jQuery etc.

I thought you meant HTML5 as one of the distributions to export a stack to. 
That is not going to happen. But if you mean a Rapid Application Development 
tool to make Rich Internet Applications, with the ease of use and the stability 
LC offers, I'm cheering. 

Terry

Op 21 jun. 2011, om 18:28 heeft use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com het 
volgende geschreven:

> Terry,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful reply. A couple of thoughts crossed my mind
> while reading it.
> 
> Years ago, in a former life, I used to attend various CEO conferences. At
> one of them, I had a chance to visit with Eric Schmidt, now of Google, but
> then he was with Sun. We got to talking about Java, the topic of the day. My
> comment to him was, as a multimedia company, we had evaluated Java and
> determined it was too slow and too abstracted to do any meaningful
> development with. He remarked, yes, he already knew this. But more important
> than the reality of what Java currently was, is the expectation and
> perception of what it will be. His point to me was the perception is more
> important the the nuts and bolts of reality.
> 
> I think the same is true for HTML5.
> 
> When a client says they want an HTML5 application, most don't really know
> what it is they want, nor do they know the trade-offs which may be necessary
> to provide a lowest common denominator application. But they do know they
> need it to run on the web, and on browsers connected to iPads and Androids
> and Macs and PCs. As a strategy component for the client, and even more
> importantly for us developers, we MUST have a RAD tool for HTML5 apps-- or
> if not HTML5, then AJAXy "look like application and not websites" apps. Most
> clients don't know the difference. If we don't heed this, my guess is we
> will run out of clients and projects as they end up moving to the web or
> isolated platforms.
> 
> The other key point is perhaps a lesson learned from Jerry and Sarah. Here
> in Austin, I see Jerry often. In fact I'm having lunch with him tomorrow.
> One thing Jerry always understood when he developed applications, is to
> start simple. His RodeoApps did just that. I'm saying we do the same. Start
> by creating a card and a button with a home icon...and go from there.
> 
> That said, RodeoApps is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a
> subscription based model where all code lives on a server. HTML5 allows for
> caching. I actually suggesting the opposite approach, where you start on the
> client and load an HTML5 app there and do simple things. Just like Rev.
> Early on, it only did simple things-- even now you can't code Photoshop or
> MS Word in it. I'm thinking the same with an HTML5 plugin approach.
> 
> I get it there will be some hurdles, and one of them will have to be a
> compile (translate) first approach-- not unlike many other IDE's including
> our own LC iOS plugin. Still, the time is now, not AFTER all HTML5 problems
> are worked out-- or pushed out to HTML6. Sorta like the guy who never bought
> a TV because he was waiting for the new and better one to come out in just a
> few months.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Chipp Walters

Hi Terry and the rest,

Just finished a nice lunch with Jerry and Chris-- two people who have very
different takes on the subject, but both agree with Richard and most of you
regarding one thing: Learning Javascript is important.

Both these guys also know me, and know how I program. Like many of you, I
can typically knock out a standalone utility in a single sitting or two. I
tend to start and complete most customer projects in a few months. I can
develop an LC app for a fraction of the cost of our company developing a
Flex app-- and with the same functionality EXCEPT it won't run in a browser.
So, I asked both guys if they knew of any frameworks or IDE's for web apps
which allow for the speed of completion LC offers. Neither did. Anyone else
know or work with systems where the developer can be as effective in
knocking out small applications as they can in LC?

I end up wearing a bunch of different hats. Right now, I'm knee deep in
building custom WordPress themes for clients, and all the php and WP loop
lingo which goes with it (including a little JQuery, CSS, HTML, etc.). Next
week I may be working on Disney concept sketches and 3d models and after
that I may be working with Dan Shafer building online marketing strategies
and funnels to drive traffic to insurance company websites. Then I may go
five months not touching LC. The point is, I'm not a full time professional
developer who can afford to spend time digging deeply into different IDEs
and frameworks. There's just too much else to be done.

So, Terry, I tend to agree with you, "I think the reason why it is such a
torture to work with HTML5 is the lack of a good RAD tool. The guy who
figures out how to do that, is a soon to be rich guy."

I know there are no silver bullets-- it's just at my age and with my
schedule, I can't afford to make too many false starts-- and currently I
don't see the right guy and his HTML5 RAD tool app on the horizon.

If, on the otherhand, some of you are saying it's just not possible to
create such a RAD HTML5 tool, (doesn't have to be in LC) then I guess we'll
just have to disagree. Maybe not at this moment, but I someday expect to be
able to create similar projects, like the ones I do now, in HTML5-- just as
easily as I do now in LC. I hope I'm not dreaming. :-)
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread Richard Gaskin


Michael Kann wrote:

> I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website,
> with the css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your
> desktop you isolate all the parts that are "personal" to the webpage;
> basically everything you want to replace with your own material. Out
> goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin Consulting becomes Kann
> Consulting.

I'm not sure I understand.  Is your concern that JavaScript can't be 
protected?


If so, yes, that's true.  For all sites.  Even Google's, where it hasn't 
stopped them from investing a fair bit of cash.


I don't think the Web is going away anytime soon

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-21 Thread John Patten


Hi All...

FWIW, Nice site with some folks developing specific tools and API for  
html5 here:  http://popcornjs.org/


Might be useful for someone trying to develop RevTool ;-)

John Patten
SUSD




On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Michael Kann wrote:

> I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website,
> with the css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your
> desktop you isolate all the parts that are "personal" to the  
webpage;

> basically everything you want to replace with your own material. Out
> goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin Consulting becomes Kann
> Consulting.

I'm not sure I understand.  Is your concern that JavaScript can't be  
protected?


If so, yes, that's true.  For all sites.  Even Google's, where it  
hasn't stopped them from investing a fair bit of cash.


I don't think the Web is going away anytime soon

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World
LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Michael Kann

John,

Thanks for the heads-up. Keep 'em coming.

Mike

--- On Tue, 6/21/11, John Patten  wrote:

From: John Patten 
Subject: Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5
To: "How to use LiveCode" 
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 6:08 PM

Hi All...

FWIW, Nice site with some folks developing specific tools and API for html5 
here:  http://popcornjs.org/

Might be useful for someone trying to develop RevTool ;-)

John Patten
SUSD




On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Michael Kann wrote:
> 
> > I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website,
> > with the css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your
> > desktop you isolate all the parts that are "personal" to the webpage;
> > basically everything you want to replace with your own material. Out
> > goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin Consulting becomes Kann
> > Consulting.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand.  Is your concern that JavaScript can't be 
> protected?
> 
> If so, yes, that's true.  For all sites.  Even Google's, where it hasn't 
> stopped them from investing a fair bit of cash.
> 
> I don't think the Web is going away anytime soon
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World
> LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
> Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
> LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv
> 
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Michael Kann

Richard,

You're the chess grandmaster thinking nine moves ahead. I'm just trying to 
figure out how the pieces move. Thanks for trying to figure out what that 
stupid paragraph was supposed to mean. All I was really trying to say was that 
we might use LiveCode to gather useful code from websites we like -- then reuse 
that code in our own projects. What I should have said instead was, "If Richard 
is talking about web programming, listen up."

Thanks,

Mike

--- On Tue, 6/21/11, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

From: Richard Gaskin 
Subject: Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 4:23 PM

Michael Kann wrote:

> I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website,
> with the css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your
> desktop you isolate all the parts that are "personal" to the webpage;
> basically everything you want to replace with your own material. Out
> goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin Consulting becomes Kann
> Consulting.

I'm not sure I understand.  Is your concern that JavaScript can't be protected?

If so, yes, that's true.  For all sites.  Even Google's, where it hasn't 
stopped them from investing a fair bit of cash.

I don't think the Web is going away anytime soon

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Richard Gaskin

Michael Kann wrote:

> Richard,
>
> You're the chess grandmaster thinking nine moves ahead. I'm just
> trying to figure out how the pieces move. Thanks for trying to
> figure out what that stupid paragraph was supposed to mean. All
> I was really trying to say was that we might use LiveCode to
> gather useful code from websites we like -- then reuse that code
> in our own projects. What I should have said instead was, "If
> Richard is talking about web programming, listen up."

That's very kind of you, but IMO such accolades should be reserved for 
Andre, who taught me a great deal about JavaScript while working with 
him on a project a couple years ago.  A few good examples from him 
opened by eyes to how to use JS effectively -- he's as good a teacher as 
he is a coder (even if he does pronounce "button" as "boohton" ).

But on the HTML stuff, I think you're right:  there are plenty of ways 
LiveCode can be employed to assist web production.  It may be daunting 
to try to make a general tool, and frankly I find many dynamic pages 
don't lend themselves well to GUI tools anyway, spending ever more time 
in a simple text editor.

But with all the libraries and other JS resources out there, and LC's 
wonderful text handling, there's almost no end to the ways we can boost 
our web production productivity with LC.

In fact, tempting as it's been to generalize things into some sort of 
Ultimate Tool, it's so easy building custom tools in LC that I often 
make custom web production tools on a per-project basis.

Tons of ROI to be discovered by putting LC to work with things that 
involve text manipulation

PS: I actually very much suck at chess, but my ineptitude with the game 
doesn't stop me from enjoying it.  If anyone wants an easy win just 
bring a board to the next conference - I won't be able to resist, and 
will likely lose my queen in under 15 minutes. :)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Bob Sneidar

You keep your queen for 15 minutes??? I always use her to take as many pawns as 
I can!!

Bob


On Jun 22, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> PS: I actually very much suck at chess, but my ineptitude with the game 
> doesn't stop me from enjoying it.  If anyone wants an easy win just bring a 
> board to the next conference - I won't be able to resist, and will likely 
> lose my queen in under 15 minutes. :)
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin


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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Andre Garzia

no no no, you are doing it wrong, you need to attack straight away with the
KING the pawns and knights will see the king charging and will follow!

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:

> You keep your queen for 15 minutes??? I always use her to take as many
> pawns as I can!!
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
> > PS: I actually very much suck at chess, but my ineptitude with the game
> doesn't stop me from enjoying it.  If anyone wants an easy win just bring a
> board to the next conference - I won't be able to resist, and will likely
> lose my queen in under 15 minutes. :)
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
>
>
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-22 Thread Chipp Walters

Is the King the one with the horse?

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Andre Garzia  wrote:

> no no no, you are doing it wrong, you need to attack straight away with the
> KING the pawns and knights will see the king charging and will follow!
>
>
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-28 Thread Nonsanity

There was a Revolution. Now the pawns are in charge with a representative
democracy. Their rallying cry is "Anyone can be a queen!"

I think it needs work, myself...

 ~ Chris Innanen
 ~ Nonsanity


On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Chipp Walters  wrote:

> Is the King the one with the horse?
>
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Andre Garzia 
> wrote:
>
> > no no no, you are doing it wrong, you need to attack straight away with
> the
> > KING the pawns and knights will see the king charging and will
> follow!
> >
> >
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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

2011-06-28 Thread John Patten


FWIW...

Google just released a tool called Swiffy. It will convert swf files  
into HTML5 files.


They have a few examples in their post:  
http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2011/06/swiffy-convert-swf-files-to-html5.html

Not sure how relevant to LiveCode, but is another example of  
converting file type to HTML5.


Cheers!

John Patten
SUSD

On Jun 21, 2011, at 4:08 PM, John Patten wrote:


Hi All...

FWIW, Nice site with some folks developing specific tools and API  
for html5 here:  http://popcornjs.org/


Might be useful for someone trying to develop RevTool ;-)

John Patten
SUSD




On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Michael Kann wrote:

> I would like to be able to download a webpage or an entire website,
> with the css and javascript libraries that go with it. On your
> desktop you isolate all the parts that are "personal" to the  
webpage;
> basically everything you want to replace with your own material.  
Out

> goes the bad, in goes the good. Gaskin Consulting becomes Kann
> Consulting.

I'm not sure I understand.  Is your concern that JavaScript can't  
be protected?


If so, yes, that's true.  For all sites.  Even Google's, where it  
hasn't stopped them from investing a fair bit of cash.


I don't think the Web is going away anytime soon

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World
LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Wondering about LC and HTML5

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Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

Re: Wondering about LC and HTML5

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