Re: Back With Unicode Blues...

[Kenji Kojima]

Hi Igor,

font face=Lucida Grande lang=ja is a problem for Japanese users 
too.

There is not the font name Lucida Grande in Japanese fonts.
This is Roman system font on Mac OSX.  The Japanese system font is
Osaka on MacOSX.  We can find the same problem on other OSs.
Japanese MacOS Classic shows Geneva, and  Japanese Windows shows
MS San Serif.  Every font name is NOT Japanese font.
The problem is only imported or copied  Pasted Japanese text from other
application files, HtmlText of direct input Japanese text from a 
keyboard shows
font face=Osaka lang=ja .

When you import Japanese text into Rev text field.

	the effective textFont of line 1 of field 1

does not work. It returns mixed. It has to contain comma on the 
document
Revolution How to: find out whether text in a field is Unicode.

Thanks,

--
Kenji Kojima
http://www.kenjikojima.com/




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completed academic project

[James Lewes]

I have managed to finish the presentation I was asking the list about last
week. If anyone would like to look at it it is 19 mb +.

Couple of observations and questions.


I had real problems using the standalone builder in Revolution 2.0, so I
resorted to using 1.1.

I solved my problems with building multiple links within a field, by placing
fields above the main field and used them for the links.

When I built it, I had not taken the way different systems and monitors
handle fonts into consideration. The result was that I had slippage and on a
Linux machine and a PC, the links were no longer in the right place. I
solved this problem by copying the text and pasting it into an image file
and then imporrting the image file to replace the text files. I did the same
for the links and bingo, the links now sit in the right place.

I have two small problems that if someone could help me with it would be
great. When I open the stand alone application, it selects an object on the
page, how do I get rid of this?

Second, I have a number of text fields with vertical scroll bars. The scroll
bars do not work.

James

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Re: Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Thanks for the suggestion the real problem will be Ich spreche deutsch ... nicht zehr 
gut  :)

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 12:32 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 I don't think there's another tool as close to ToolBook as Rev.  And 
 if by
 chance you find yourself doing contract work for the Munich government,
 you'd have to use a tool that can deploy on Linux ;)
 http://news.com.com/2100-1016-1010740.html

ROFL...

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter

Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria

http://www.internettrainer.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418, Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539

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Re: Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Thanks Richard for the details I hope to be able to look at Revolution soon. It seems 
it is very promising.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sorry it was a long time since I asked the question but I didn't have time.

With your ToolBook background i think you'll find it rewarding to download
the demo...

 I didn't try Revolution yet I just read the site. What are the best points of
 revolution which can be found or not in Toolbook.




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Re: Books on RunRev

[Alan Gayne]

On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 09:58 PM, Judy Perry wrote:

And, where exactly would the inspiration for Revolution have come from
were it not for that 'failed' product used by perhaps hundreds of
thousands of people or more for more than a decade?
and STILL use every working day and all day long.   I for one, will be 
thrilled on the day I can get RunRev to do as easily all of the things 
I now do with Hypercard and Nine to Five Reports.  Because only then 
will I have the luxury of the extra time available to get into the all 
of the great ADDITIONAL features contained in Revolution.  I have no 
doubt that they are present, but the current state of the documentation 
makes them very difficult (for me at least) to access and understand.

In the extensive discussions regarding Nine to Five Reports I haven't 
noticed the mention of one incredibly important feature - that it came 
with a truly amazing online manual numbering some 1700+ pages which not 
only provided detailed explanations use and scripting examples of all 
of the special functions they had implement in their related products 
(Reports, Index,  Letters) but full documentation on Hypercard itself 
and extensive discussion on scripting, AddColor and lot of other stuff. 
 This compendium was written by L. Michael Post and Michael Long and is 
a brilliant example of what comprehensive documentation can and should 
be - one I use to this very day.

I cheerfully purchased the printed RunRev documentation hoping and 
NEEDING to find something similar.  Unfortunately (and incredibly) the 
two volume Transcript dictionary doesn't even have an index.  And I was 
and remain far less cheerful about the RunRev documentation.

I REALLY want and need to learn how to make RunRev do the things I now 
do with Hypercard and Nine to Five Reports because one day I will buy a 
new Mac which won't run HC and Reports under any circumstance and I'll 
be reduced to scrounging for old system 9 machines to run my business.

A truly great product such as RunRev deserves and will require truly 
great documentation, rich with examples, if it is ever to gain 
widespread acceptance.

As to RunRev's Hypercard roots, I would venture to guess that if our 
friends in Scotland were able to sell licenses to all those who are 
STILL using Hypercard today (as a start) their accountant would be a 
happy camper.  As Stephen Barncard said, Hypercard had a huge user 
base that was fairly invisible because they solved their own problems.

Alan

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Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 16:53 Europe/Vienna, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion the real problem will be Ich spreche 
deutsch ... nicht zehr gut  :)

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 12:32 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

I don't think there's another tool as close to ToolBook as Rev.  And
if by
chance you find yourself doing contract work for the Munich 
government,
you'd have to use a tool that can deploy on Linux ;)
http://news.com.com/2100-1016-1010740.html
Hello rebolask,
that has nothing to do with german speaking...
Richard was refering to the great news some days ago, that the Gov of 
the german city Munich has definitly changed from M$ to Linux now. A 
big point for real crossplatform tool like rev. So if you offer in the 
future anything to the Munich Gov it must run on Linux...

A small step for this city but a big step for the humankind;)

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
http://www.internettrainer.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418, Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539
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The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Rob Cozens]

any changeable information must be stored outside of the application itself

Actually, the application can run on all platforms...its just that any
changes to the data won't be there the next time it is started.
If there were a RunRev Player app, this consideration would be 
non-sequitur and main stacks would not have to be flash screens 
that open the real working stack(s).  In building a splash screen to 
open the working files and contain the MC engine, each of us is, in 
effect, creating a custom RunRev Player.  With each new app, we do it 
again.

A generalized RunRev Player would make it unnecessary to design RR 
mainStack apps differently from HyperCard stacks, and an extensible 
Home stack would provide a framework for integrating multiple RR 
applications.

Why hasn't anyone built a generalized RunRev Player?
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.com/who.htm
And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee.
from The Triple Foole by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Dan's Post re RunRev's HyperCard Roots

[Rob Cozens]

Apologies all: I deleted Dan Shafer's post before responding  don't 
recall the exact subject.

I must say that in my opinion:

1. the HyperCard community in general bears a large part of the 
responsibility for whatever prejudices against xTalks exist among 
professional software developers,

2. ignorant software reviewers played a part, and

3.  HyperCard was a victim of its own success.

Let's discuss 2  3 first, as #1 basically results from the 
community's reaction to them.

2.  In my experience, software reviewers are writers, not developers, 
and their reviews are rarely done in a depth that would qualify them 
to proclaim any real knowledge or understanding of the product they 
review.  When HyperCard was introduced, reviewers quickly  
universally proclaimed it slow and a memory hog, COMPARED TO SOFTWARE 
THEY KNEW THAT DIDN'T SUPPORT GRAPHICS, SOUNDS, VISUAL EFFECTS, etc. 
The comparison was unfair  unfounded; but it was obvious (like the 
Run Rev has a fatal flaw: its Quit button is under the File menu on 
OSX B/S).

3.  Because HyperCard enabled non-programmers to create useful (to 
the creator) software, a plethora of amateurish stacks appeared on 
AOL and elsewhere.  This lead to the ridicule of HyperCard by people 
who conveniently ignored the fact that the creators of those stack 
were non-professionals who could have produced NOTHING if given a C 
compiler or even a Basic interpreter.

1.  In reaction to 2  3, the HyperCard community took a defensive 
posture, and much bandwidth was used discussing how to hide the fact 
that one's application was HyperCard-based.

I believe this is exactly the wrong reaction.  XTalks have many 
advantages compared to other development platforms; and we should be 
pro-active in making the software development community aware of 
these rather than cringing if we are associated with the HyperCard 
scourge.

Have a C programmer show you his/her app.  Now ask, What happens to 
your app if you change a line in this library routine?  When the 
person gets through describing the process of linking and 
redistributing x MB of application files, say Gee, all I have to do 
is replace the library file and every app that uses the library picks 
up the change...
and BTW, I can change libraries on-the-fly at runtime, can't you?

There are many good reasons for a professional developer to select 
xTalks as development platforms.  We should be promoting them and 
challenging reviewers  others who ignorantly spread inaccurate or 
incomplete information, rather than apologizing for, or hiding, our 
HyperCard roots...

...or let the ignorant  misinformed select a different platform and 
compete with us where we have the advantage. :{`)
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.com/who.htm
And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee.
from The Triple Foole by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:

Why hasn't anyone built a generalized RunRev Player?
I know this isn't exactly the same, but it seems close.

When I double click on a stack, the stack is run.  A free version would 
do that.  Of course, a free version has lots of other files and clutter 
that get in the way if that's its only use.

Dar Scott

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Nine to Five Reports

[Dan Shafer]

I'm in frequent contact with Michael Long and E.R. Haas, the two  
primary geniuses behind Nine to Five Reports. I've been working on a  
new (non-tech) project with them for about 18 months now. E.R. (who was  
CEO of the company) and I frequently kick around the idea of making  
Reports run with or in RunRev. But our feeling is that the user base is  
too small and that the differences between Transcript and HyperTalk are  
so great that it would involve a complete rewrite for a user base that  
probably wouldn't repay the RD costs.

However, I know that if the RunRev folks and E.R. talked and if there  
were some funding available for the project (either through pre-sales,  
or direct investment or whatever), it is at least possible that E.R.  
and Michael would pick up that product again and look into porting it.

If we're wrong -- if, in fact, the user base is big enough and  
sufficiently interested in reporting mechanisms to create a modestly  
profitable product -- I'd love to be able to convince E.R. to re-do  
Reports for us. And I'd be happy to carry that ball forward if anyone  
can convince me I'm wrong.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- 
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
Looking at technology from every angle
http://www.eclecticity.com
Latest Book Release: HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using CSS  
(http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/)

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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 05:49 AM, curry wrote:

How about a function that returns the name of the handler that called 
the current handler? For example, this would be useful when a handler 
needs to reset each time a different handler calls it, or to keep 
track of different sets of data for each handler that calls it.
Useful, too, (and even more so for me), would be a reference to the 
object whose script contains the handler, something in the class of the 
target and me.

From your usage interest, this might be more useful to you.  Depending 
on one's programming style, the same data set might be used by several 
handlers in the same object.

My primary interest is in custom callbacks.  In the past I have used 
fixed handler name callbacks in which the calling object simply 
specifies the object that should get the callback, usually with the 
long id of me.  Now I also specify the handler.  Being able to get 
the long id of calling object would allow me to make handlers that 
work much like many of the ... with message ... commands.  That would 
both simplify them and allow those learning them to build on 
established concepts.

I currently use a function callback() to create a callback value from a 
long id/name and a handler name. I use some helper functions to call 
the handler specified by that value (using send in most cases, so 
number and array parameters have limitations).

In your case, Curry, you might want to add an (optional?) parameter 
that specifies the data set.  Add a programming style in that the data 
set name is the handler name.

I wonder what value should be returned for Curry's callingHandler if it 
is a function or an event or a message.

Dar Scott

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Re: Print group ?

[Dar Scott]

On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 02:19 PM, Mark Swindell wrote:

Can someone tell me how to print an entire cd or group to an 8.5 x 11 
page.
I've been wrestling with it for some time and have read the docs, but 
all I
ever seem to get printed is the screen.  If I draw my window to the 
size of
the group it'll all print, otherwise it gets truncated.
I'd expand that idea but I'm really not sure what will work.  Look at 
height, width, lockscreen and the like.  I'd also consider copying the 
group to a card that is the right size if there are other objects on 
the card.

Dar Scott

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Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Alan Gayne]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:

A generalized RunRev Player would make it unnecessary to design RR 
mainStack apps differently from HyperCard stacks, and an extensible 
Home stack would provide a framework for integrating multiple RR 
applications.

Why hasn't anyone built a generalized RunRev Player?
That would be really nice - especially if it contained a lot of the 
basic menu items such as those found in the edit menu already 
implemented.

Alan

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Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Bill Vlahos]

Rob,

I don't personally find the notion of a Rev Player all that 
interesting. But, if that is what you really want, it would be trivial 
to make. All you would have to do is make a standalone (one for each 
platform) and distribute your raw stacks. Remember that stacks 
themselves are completely cross-platform.

Here are three approaches:
	Set the associations so your stacks are opened by your standalone.
	Make a standalone (i.e. Player) like the old HyperCard Home Stack.*
or
	Have users download the free version of Revolution which will act like 
a player.

*Because standalones can't modify themselves, you would need to make a 
prefs file which the standalone would read and save to automatically. 
The prefs file could be a simple text file with the paths to the 
stack(s) you want to open. The standalone would display a list of 
stacks to open.

However, I don't find this approach all that interesting. I never liked 
the approach of the HyperCard Home Page because it was a world unto 
itself and not integrated with the MacOS like all other applications 
which were just icons on the hard disk. It was difficult to make 
HyperCard stacks work like real programs.

Revolution makes this so easy and it only adds about 2MB for the 
runtime.

A different tack on this which I think is very interesting is Richard 
Gaskin's RevNet (http://www.fourthworld.com/rev/).

My $.02
Bill Vlahos
On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 07:28  AM, Rob Cozens wrote:

any changeable information must be stored outside of the application 
itself

Actually, the application can run on all platforms...its just that any
changes to the data won't be there the next time it is started.
If there were a RunRev Player app, this consideration would be 
non-sequitur and main stacks would not have to be flash screens that 
open the real working stack(s).  In building a splash screen to open 
the working files and contain the MC engine, each of us is, in effect, 
creating a custom RunRev Player.  With each new app, we do it again.

A generalized RunRev Player would make it unnecessary to design RR 
mainStack apps differently from HyperCard stacks, and an extensible 
Home stack would provide a framework for integrating multiple RR 
applications.

Why hasn't anyone built a generalized RunRev Player?
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.com/who.htm
And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee.
from The Triple Foole by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Nine to Five Reports

[Alan Gayne]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:52 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:

However, I know that if the RunRev folks and E.R. talked and if there 
were some funding available for the project (either through pre-sales, 
or direct investment or whatever), it is at least possible that E.R. 
and Michael would pick up that product again and look into porting it.

If we're wrong -- if, in fact, the user base is big enough and 
sufficiently interested in reporting mechanisms to create a modestly 
profitable product -- I'd love to be able to convince E.R. to re-do 
Reports for us. And I'd be happy to carry that ball forward if anyone 
can convince me I'm wrong.
Dan

That would sure make MY world a lot nicer place.

As I recall, they used to get $299 for the full Reports 3.0 package and 
I would GLADLY pay such a price again for a fully implemented RunRev 
version, perhaps with a $50 per machine downloadable Reports Player 
which would allow networked users to work with (but not create or 
alter) already prepared report documents.

I also had a brief conversation on this subject with E.R. and Bob 
Greenberg at rpControl wherein I had also suggested that they try to 
cut a deal with the RunRev people.  I had made a similar suggestion to 
Kevin Miller at last Summer's MacWorld Expo in New York.

What I eventually heard was that the RunRev people felt that all of the 
features offered by Reports would ultimately be better implemented 
totally within the Revolution environment - ultimately seeming to be 
the operative term.

While I am reasonably sure this is quite possible, the RunRev folks do 
not seem to place the same importance on this feature set as do I, and 
as I strongly suspect do the many people who still use the HC/Reports 
package every day to run their business.

Perhaps you could coax that major european auto maker to front that 
small (to them at least) amount of money to E.R. and Michael to get the 
job done.  Imagine what a promotional coup it would for RunRev to be 
able to say that it was now THEIR product being so used on ANY 
platform.  Maybe that would be motivation enough for them to talk 
seriously with the Reports people.

Alan

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Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Shao Sean]

couldn't one just build a stack with all the extra stacks
included? true, you'd need to have a standardized main
stack name to load..

-Sean
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Richard Gaskin]

Dar Scott wrote:

 Useful, too, (and even more so for me), would be a reference to the
 object whose script contains the handler, something in the class of the
 target and me.

Isn't that the distinction between the target and me?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
 ___
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Re: Back With Unicode Blues

[Tuviah M Snyder]

I've made a stack that illustrates the Unicode problem I've
encountered. Anyone interested in helping us find a solution, can
access it by typing the following inside Revolution's  'messageBox'
- while you are connected to the internet:

open stack URL http://www.pixelmedia.com.au/Unicode_Problem.rev;

The stack was made under MacOS X - I don't know how the unicode
characters will appear or how the scripts will behave under other
platforms. All feedback appreciated!!!
 
There is a sample stack in the contributors which demonstrates
transferring unicode text from one field to another
http://www.runrev.com/revolution/downloads/developerdownloads/unicodeFldR
outines.rev.zip
 
Like many others, I'm having trouble getting my head round the new 
unicode features. But I get the impression it's not a good idea to 
directly manipulate the text of the field itself. (I know it didn't 
contain what I expected when I first started playing around.) First 
get the unicodeText, play with that, and then set the unicodeText 
again. But I guess we have to be careful with chunk expressions.
Right. Because a field can contain a mix of unicode and ASCII text. So if
your planning to write application which work with all languages better
to get the unicodeText of a field, to get the contents of a field as all
unicode.

It also appears to me, after playing with this issue some more that it
would be conveniant, that if a field uses a unicode font (ie. 'arial,
unicode' or 'osaka, japanese'), that all text in that field should be
stored as unicode. This would make things easier for developers, because
at least they can then directly manipulate a field and know it's all
unicode.  What currently happens is it only stores high bit characters
(ie.  255) as unicode, so if you have a field whose textfont is 'osaka,
japanese' and type an 'A' Rev saves it as ASCII and sets the textfont of
that character to just Osaka.


Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[Tuviah M Snyder]

- it doesn't seem to support Activex whereas Toolbook does (Toolbook is
not multiplatform)
I wonder how many of our developers would find support ActiveX useful?

For example I didn't see any tree component so how would you show for
example a xml-type structure?
You can find a sample treeview control which can read and display xml,
and display hundreds of elements in milliseconds in the Revolution 2.0
samples folder. If you look at the script you'll notice it's less than
120 lines, and can display images.  This is not to say that an xml tree
view object would not be useful in the engine, but by giving developers
things like support for images in fields and perhaps enhanced support for
things like parent scripts as Richard mentioned, it's not difficult to
roll your own and it will work for all platforms.

Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Drag-And-Drop Image Fun

[Tuviah M Snyder]

Any further hints would be IMMENSELY appreciated!
You could try

setting the dragdata[image] to text of image 1

Only thing is this would override the whole text-image workaround.

image 1 doesn't necessarily need to be PNG, any format will work. Rev
will convert to the native format for the appropriate platform when
dragging (PICT for MacOS, Bitmap for Windows).

Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Books on RunRev

[Richard Gaskin]

Alan Gayne wrote:

 A truly great product such as RunRev deserves and will require truly
 great documentation, rich with examples, if it is ever to gain
 widespread acceptance.

In all fairness, Rev has probably the most comprehensive documentation in an
xTalk since Gain Momentum's 20,000-page manual.  Not that it's perfect, and
certainly there's plenty of room for more.

There's a sort of catch-22 with regard to docs in any product:  they're
expensive to produce and don't make much of a bullet-point for marketing
(which is why most of the manuals for major commercial wares like those from
Adobe and Macromedia are so slender), and yet they serve to empower folks to
make cool stuff more quickly which does help spread the word faster.

One of the strengths of packages from major vendors is the availability  of
third-party documentation, critical for many packages in an industry-wide
trend toward underdocumenting.

We are Rev's third parties.  What shall we build?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
 ___
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Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[Richard Gaskin]

Tuviah M Snyder wrote:

 For example I didn't see any tree component so how would you show
 for example a xml-type structure?

 You can find a sample treeview control which can read and display xml,
 and display hundreds of elements in milliseconds in the Revolution 2.0
 samples folder. If you look at the script you'll notice it's less than
 120 lines, and can display images.

URL?

-- 
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Re: Stack and Substacks and user properties

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

I got it. The bummer is that user properties have much less 
usefulness for me in a standalone. I might as well just continue to 
use variables for transitory data and user properties as constants -- 
imbedded lists that don't change. What else are they good for? I 
guess they're easier to find, being attached to an object they relate 
to. Should I use properties in a substack, or would that get sucked 
in during standalone creation?

sqb


Only Macs have resource forks so files can automatically save to themselves,
i.e., the data, including any changes/updates, becomes part of the resource
fork of the stack (Hypercard) or project (SuperCard). RR uses the MetaCard
engine which is cross-platform. Since PC's under Windows, Linux, Unix, etc.,
do _not_ have resource forks, their files cannot save to themselves.
Therefore, in order to remain consistant across all platforms, RR stacks do
not save to themselves on Macs either.
Does that help?

Ken N.
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:02 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Useful, too, (and even more so for me), would be a reference to the
object whose script contains the handler, something in the class of 
the
target and me.
Isn't that the distinction between the target and me?
Not exactly.

The target() function returns the object that originally got the 
message.  I think the keyword target is equivalent.  And the me 
keyword is equivalent to the object containing the current handler or 
function.  There might be an object in between.

For example, a button might call a handler in the card script.  That 
handler in the card script might call a handler in the stack script.  
In the execution of that last handler, me would refer to the stack 
and target() (and target) would refer to the button.

I would like a way for the script in the stack to know that the handler 
that called it is in the script of a particular object.  In this case, 
that would be the card.

Dar Scott

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Re: Text to Speech - Speech in windows

[STKing42]

Does anyone know if Text to speech works in windows? I have tried Win XP and Win 98 (using a button for both) and each time I get the error message 'Can't initialise speech engine'

I'm currently using 2.0r2. 

Note I am fairly inexperienced at Revolution (being a solid windows user) so maybe I'm doing something wrong, but have built two apps in 1.1.1 that worked OK so I think I''m using the command OK. 

Regards
Steve King
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Richard Gaskin]

Rob Cozens wrote:

 A generalized RunRev Player would make it unnecessary to design RR
 mainStack apps differently from HyperCard stacks, and an extensible
 Home stack would provide a framework for integrating multiple RR
 applications.
 
 Why hasn't anyone built a generalized RunRev Player?

The answer may be in the paragraph above the question, in the difference
between applications and stackware.

I've spent almost a decade thinking about players, and even built and
maintained one for SuperCard for three years before Allegiant decided to do
a sanctioned one.  But truth be told, neither my SCPlayer nor the official
SuperCard Player were ever broadly used.

The very small number of developers who would use a player for general
distribution (it may be zero for all I know; I've never actually seen anyone
promoting wares for distribution with general players, only as standalones)
tells us a lot about what happens to audience demographics when you move
from something pre-installed on every Mac (HyperCard) to something that has
to be downloaded (everything since), and says a bit about the role the Web
plays in all this.

Back in HyperCard's heyday, there was no Web.  Distributing HyperCard
stacks, and creating interconnections between them, was the closest thing at
the time.

But once the Web was born, HTML took over the role previously occupied by
HyperCard stacks for that sort of thing, leaving a subset of developers
whose interests lie more in application development.

Players can be useful for things that have a common focus, and a lot of
developers make them for their own collections of related wares.  But
attempting to deploy general application designs in a player introduces
other challenges, including menu management, name space considerations, and
general design issues (this topic came up recently on the SC list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SuperCard/message/11596).

So what would make good candidates for distribution in a player?  What would
be an example of things that share a common focus?

One example is in heavy development here now, a useful thing that also
provides a seductive framework for introducing the masses to the power of
Rev.  It's too early to spill all the beans quite yet, but I can say that a
standalone variant of RevNet sits at its core

-- 
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 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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Re: Stack and Substacks and user properties

[Richard Gaskin]

Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:

 The bummer is that user properties have much less
 usefulness for me in a standalone. I might as well just continue to
 use variables for transitory data and user properties as constants --
 imbedded lists that don't change. What else are they good for? I
 guess they're easier to find, being attached to an object they relate
 to. Should I use properties in a substack, or would that get sucked
 in during standalone creation?

Exactly:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2002-July/006141.html

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 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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Re: 2.0 Documentation

[miscdas]

Danny Grizzle writes: 

What is the best way for a newbie to get started with Revolution 2.0? 

I don't have a Hypercard background. 

Where are the docs? 

Danny Grizzle 

=
my 2 cents: 

Go through the supplied tutorials AND the examples, then try to build a 
something SMALL yourself--Rome wasn't built in a day. Be willing to invest 
some time in getting used to the XTalk syntax. If you don't get a routine to 
work as expected, do some experimenting as well as checking the dictionary 
and supplied documentation. Like any large reference work, the documentation 
has strong and weak areas, so you won't always find there an answer to your 
problem. If all else fails, post to the mailing list. There are always 
helpful people around. 

miscdas 
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:53 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Gotcha.  Yeah, a caller ID would be useful.
LOL.  When you put it that way, I see another use might be to not 
accept calls from certain objects.  This might be handled by an 
immediate return.

Dar scott

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Re: Develloping a registrationsystem

[miscdas]

Alejandro Tejada writes: 

Malte Brill wrote: 

I´ve been working on a small registration concept
recently. I´ve got a stack that generarates a 
registration code of 8 characters taken
from name and a codeword e.g. email adress.
Hi Malte, 

I'm interested too in some code that permits a stack
to runs only in the machine in which it was installed. 

Those machine are running Windows XP.
I've read about getting the hard disk serial number
in the Developers Tips from Ken Ray's website. 

My guess is that a combination of the serial of
the hard disk and the ID number of the Ethernet card
could be a good combination. But, I don't know how to
get the id of the ethernet card.

Thanks in advance. 

Alejandro
= 

Mr Tejada, 

I suggest your reconsider the Ethernet card ID as a permanent part of a 
system. In more than one company in which I've worked, it was very common to 
swap-out Ethernet cards for a variety of reasons. 

miscdas
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threshold

[Chris De Maeyer]

Wouldn`t it be a good idea to lower the entry threshold (price) to
attract a broader audience? The free edition is too limiting to be
usable, and the $299 is quite an amount for hobby users...





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Reporting Software

[Marty Knapp]

I, too, still use Hypercard and Reports (from rpControl), but am trying to
switch over to Revolution. I'm also checking out MySQL and Valentina for
data storage options. Does anyone out there have any knowledge or experience
with a product called db Reports? It's a report generating app for SQL
type databases, and can save report templates in an XML format. They have a
Mac Classic, OSX, and Windows version. Anybody successfully integrated it
with a Revolution stack?

Here's their URL: http://www.abdatatools.com/

They have demos to download.

Marty Knapp

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Re: Nine to Five Reports

[Tuviah M Snyder]

What I eventually heard was that the RunRev people felt that all of the 
features offered by Reports would ultimately be better implemented 
totally within the Revolution environment - ultimately seeming to be 
the operative term.
Hi Alan. I remember talking with you at MacWorld, and look forward to
discussing this in more detail this July.

I think the big problem with writing a reports package, is coming up with
something easy enough and powerful enough that developers use it. As
Richard stated many apps need to print custom reports, and it may be
easier to just roll your own.

RunRev 2.0 features a new report generator, a powerful and well tested
stack based report generator, and I'm not sure how many people have even
tried it out.

I wrote a report generator 5 years ago for MetaCard called the MetaCard
Report Generator which featured fully customizable headers/footers,
templates, a Full scripting API, ect, expressions, ect.

http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/contributors/mcrg.htm

I honestly don't know if anyone actually used it in an application, I got
little to no feedback on it, and it never went out of beta. Perhaps it
was too complex?!

So I've moved to the conclusion that what we need is a report generator
based on SQL along the lines of Crystal Reports, DBReports, and various
other reporting packages, or even perhaps tighter integration with such
packages. Along with things like step by step Query Wizards, prebuilt
Templates, possible support for stacks as data sources, an Open
extensible scripting API so developers can write their own printing
modules, and additional integration with local databases
(Access/Valentina) perhaps we can have the ultimate cross platform report
generator in Rev.

Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[Tuviah M Snyder]

You can find it at:
Revolution 2.0\Sample Stacks\xmltree-view.rev

Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: text to speech

[Emmanuel Companys]

El samedi, 31 mai, 2003, a las 18:11 Europe/Paris, Geoff Canyon 
escribió:

Are you trying this from the message box? I tried it there and got an 
error. In a button script it worked fine.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 10:48  AM, Emmanuel Companys wrote:

I finally got it working for english (there was a problem in he 
settings). I asked how I could have my script choosing spanish. But hen 
I noticed that the speech has disappeared from the spanish system. When 
I choose spanish in macOS 10.2.6 even the Speech submenu is in 
english!

Does anybody know:
1) what happened with the mexican voices (such as Carlito's)? Will they 
come back?
2) does the speech function exist for any other language? (Now or in a 
reasonably near future)
3) how to script the choice of the appropriate language and voice?

Manuel

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Re: use-revolution digest, Vol 1 #1415 - 14 msgs

[Dan Shafer]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 10:07 AM, Mark Talluto wrote:

It appears that there are a good amount of people hear that would be
interested in being able to crack open a book on Rev as well.  Are you
proposing that we come together and work on a book?   I love the
O'Reilly books.  What animal would we put on it?
At least two of us on this list are already working on third-party  
books. They may or may not ever see the light of print publishing, but  
certainly we'll have eBooks on them.

Depending on the size of the RR user base (a figure I have never been  
able to obtain), O'Reilly might be interested in entertaining the idea  
of a printed book on it.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- 
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
Looking at technology from every angle
http://www.eclecticity.com
Latest Book Release: HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using CSS  
(http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/)

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Re: Books on RunRev

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:54 AM, Mark Talluto wrote:

It appears that there are a good amount of people hear that would be 
interested in being able to crack open a book on Rev as well.  Are you 
proposing that we come together and work on a book?   I love the 
O'Reilly books.  What animal would we put on it?
Revolution has become very broad in scope.  Any general book will have 
holes and be otherwise thin.

It might be easier to target:  Graphics with Revolution.  Build Simple 
Database Stacks with Revolution.  Revolution and Music.  Scientific 
Programming with Revolution.

I fear the markets for those might be small, but maybe not.  I guess 
those can be sections in a book that is recognizably lacking in other 
areas.

Also...  I would be more likely to get a book that is organized by 
subjects like graphics than one that walks me through building a CD 
database or one that goes through the commands and functions in 
alphabetical order.  Some people would like to recognize and skip over 
the advanced graphics section, too.

Dar Scott

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Re: Books on RunRev

[miscdas]

Judy Perry writes: 

But adopted by some for that very tie-in reason. 

It would be a shame to for this sort of rationale to result in turning
Hypercard into the old, fuddy-duddy grandfather we're ashamed of
ocknowledging in public... 

:( 

Judy 

On Fri, 30 May 2003, J. Landman Gay wrote: 

On 5/30/03 11:19 AM, Danny Grizzle wrote: 

 I would be careful about tying Revolution too closely to HyperCard.

 HyperCard is Apple-centric, and a failed product. Revolution needs to stand
 on its own merit; the HyperCard tie-in will only serve to have it dismissed
 out of hand by Windows/Linux/Unix users. 

And by some Mac users as well. 

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Like most things one tries to sell, packaging is used to appeal to target 
markets. So, who is the market? Win/'Nix users? Mac users? All of the above? 
Keeping the target in mind during writing, and especially during the 
marketing phase, will tend to temper the HyperCard tie-in appropriately. 

miscdas
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Re: Develloping a registrationsystem

[Richard Gaskin]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I´ve been working on a small registration concept
 recently. I´ve got a stack that generarates a
 registration code of 8 characters taken
 from name and a codeword e.g. email adress.
 
 Hi Malte, 
 
 I'm interested too in some code that permits a stack
 to runs only in the machine in which it was installed.
 
 Those machine are running Windows XP.
 I've read about getting the hard disk serial number
 in the Developers Tips from Ken Ray's website.
 
 My guess is that a combination of the serial of
 the hard disk and the ID number of the Ethernet card
 could be a good combination. But, I don't know how to
 get the id of the ethernet card.
 
 Thanks in advance.
 
 Alejandro
 =
 
 Mr Tejada, 
 
 I suggest your reconsider the Ethernet card ID as a permanent part of a
 system. In more than one company in which I've worked, it was very common to
 swap-out Ethernet cards for a variety of reasons.

There may be many good reasons the biggest players in the industry don't do
things like that.

Most of them use a much simpler scheme of non-user-specific reg codes.

Sure, piracy is unpleasant, but unless you're in an unusually piracy-prone
market (music tools come to mind) why take a larger percentage of your time
away from feature development to work on security than the major software
publishers do?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
 ___
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Re: Books on RunRev

[Richard Gaskin]

Ken Norris wrote:

 I agree with this 100%. Take a look at some of the fully-indexed,
 well-organized printed media available for HyperCard:
 
 1) Apple's own printed manuals, which were no slouches.
 
 plus these 700+ page offerings from others:
 
 2) Danny Goodman's The Complete Hypercard 2.2 Handbook.
 3) The Waite Group's Tricks of the HyperTalk Masters.
 4) Winkler, Kamins, DeVoto HyperTalk 2.2, The Book. (my personal fave)
 5) Post and Long -- I don't know the exact title of their book (9 to 5
 Reports).
 
 If someone, (anyone) can find time and energy to publish a commercial book
 for Runtime Revolution, I could all but guarantee it would produce large
 income over the first couple of weeks all by itself, PLUS I believe the
 distribution of RR would increase exponentially.
 
 Besides the original program developed by Bill Atkinson, et al, and thew
 later teams at Apple, I believe the dramatic success of Hypercard was due in
 part to those prolific manuals available for it.

Or the other way around.

Remember that HyperCard was pre-installed on every Mac for many years, and
its development and marketing heavily subsidized by the mother ship (it was
seen as a strategic element that helped distinguish the Mac advantage).

If Apple (or any major OS vendor) wants to evangelize Rev, I think it would
be in their mutual interest to do so.  But until then, comparisons of
marketing any non-OS-vendor product to one built by an OS vendor will carry
implications that don't apply fairly.

 RR has much more and I realize publishing printed manuals is expensive and
 difficult to update considering the changes which have already happened, but
 at some point it must be done IMHO. The HC manuals are hopelessly outdated
 and wholly insufficient to be used for MC/Rev, or even Supercard anymore.
 And as for dropping nearly a C-note for a printed manual with no
 comprehensive indexing, wellI, for one, won't do it.

Just as well, in some respects:  with the product in continual development,
any set of printed docs will be complete for only a few months.  As with the
Web, getting accustomed to reading online will ultimately pay for itself in
overall productivity gains by encouraging learning directly in the living
laboratory.  

There is no more effective way to learn Rev than by experimentation.

I don't mean to suggest that printed docs have no place; they're especially
useful in getting oriented in the early learning phase.  Fortunately Geoff
Canyon's nifty RTF exporter makes it convenient to print sections on an
as-needed basis.
 
 I think most of us would like to see RR have the success all the hard work
 put into it deserves, but I don't see it happening until topnotch
 professional documentation for it is published.

Show me a Macromedia or Adobe product documented as thoroughly as Jeanne has
done with Rev and I'll eat this post at the next SoCal RevDevCon (ink jet
inks are non-toxic, aren't they?)

Sure, the docs are as imperfect as the world we live in, and to RunRev's
credit it seems the feedback here is heard and acted upon to the best of
their abilities.

But with all due respect to the good readers here, it's a rare post about
something missing in the docs that can't be located in three clicks in the
Help stacks (okay, once in a while the drill-down may take as many as four
clicks, and once even five).

I'm not sure what the issue is; it certainly isn't intelligence.  Many if
not most of the readers here exhibit unusually high intelligence.

And certainly the docs can do an ever better job of anticipating learning
challenges, but as one who reads, writes, and tech-edits a fair amount of
documentation I don't see Rev's standing out as particularly deficient.

Heck, think back about all the crappy JavaScript documentation we had to
deal with when it first came out, but that nor the complete absence of any
debugging facilities didn't stop it from becoming the most widely-used
scripting language ever.

Given the differences between adoption habits of JavaScripters and
Transcripters, my pet theory is that newcomoers to Rev underestimate the
role of unlearning when learning Rev.

Most of the folks on this list have experience in other languages, mostly in
another xTalk.  Given the similarities of Transcript to other xTalks, it's
tempting to think one can make the transition with little or no new
learning.  That's certainly true relative to moving from an xTalk to just
about anything else, but when moving from xTalk to xTalk the differences are
there but more subtle, and hence under-anticipated.

Expectations for leveraging xTalk experience are high with Rev newcomers,
and often those expectations are met.  But there are just enough differences
that without anticipating them they will be perceived as bigger obstacles
than they are.

Think back on how hard it as to learn JavaScript, and learning Rev seems
infinitely easier.  Just know that there are differences, most of the time
they make good sense, and just 

Animated Gif Background Optimization

[Sannyasin Sivakatirswami]

I am just started to get into GIF Animations and need some guidance.

How to deal with Backgrounds?...keep them in the animation or separate 
out?

Our artist has delivered some great looking files: Photoshop docs with 
layers that are set in ImageReady to frames for animation.

These layers comprise several layers of characters in different 
positions on  transparent layers and one background layer which is the 
wall behind them in a room. ImageReady's optimization is set to 
bounding box and I have set the image in Revolution to 
constantMask=true which is fine in this context because the image is 
a) not moving and b) nothing underneath it. Which solves the problem 
created by that bounding box option.  But I am interested in anyone 
else's experience. In this case the wall for the room the characters 
are in is applied to each frame... (thus the need for use of 
ImageReady's bounding box optimization to only render the movement of 
the characters and not iterate  the pixels in the background layer 
across all frames.) I will test this also with a  background image for 
the wall and delete that layer from the animation, as perhaps that is a 
better way to go.

But we would appreciate anyone's wisdom from experience on these 
matters...as there's no point re-inventing the wheel here... this has 
all been done before...

Also If there are better tools than ImageReady to get from the layered 
Photoshop document to a  well optimized animated GIF, we would also be 
interested of those, though ImageReady does seem very well wired for 
the job. Does anyone know if one can import a Photoshop document into 
MOTO or ToonBoom Studio? And if those tools really help much for hand 
drawn frames... they seem more for cartoonists who can't  drawn well 
(or just don't have that much time on their hands) for changes from 
frame to frame.

Also happy to do  homework if someone knows of tutorials or any 
resources we should study out...

TIA!

Sannyasin Sivakatirswami
Himalayan Academy Publications
at Kauai's Hindu Monastery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.HimalayanAcademy.com,
www.HinduismToday.com
www.Gurudeva.org
www.Hindu.org
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Re: OT - Revolution and Its HyperCard Roots

[Danny Grizzle]

On 5/30/03 5:48 PM, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Revolution acknowledges its HyperCard roots in many ways: it's mentioned in
 docs, it's covered in a special paper on Revolution for HyperCard developers,
 and there are some elements of the language that are essentially only stubs to
 ensure that Transcript remains compatible with HyperTalk. To suggest that
 Revolution simply try to act as if it weren't rooted in HyperCard originally
 would be unhelpful at best and disingenuous at worst.

On 5/31/03 9:22 AM, Alan Gayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 As to RunRev's Hypercard roots, I would venture to guess that if our
 friends in Scotland were able to sell licenses to all those who are
 STILL using Hypercard today (as a start) their accountant would be a
 happy camper.

On 5/30/03 8:56 PM, Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 But adopted by some for that very tie-in reason.
 
 It would be a shame to for this sort of rationale to result in turning
 Hypercard into the old, fuddy-duddy grandfather we're ashamed of
 acknowledging in public...

I think the market will demand two books

  1) One for Hypercard people transitioning forward

  2) Another which does not assume familiarity with the
 Hypercard paradigm or fond recollections of the past

Accountants always appreciate immediate gratification. Hopefully, the
Hypercard faithful will serve as booster rockets on the launch vehicle. But
at some point, you have to examine the business plan and ask yourself
(programmers)... is the market for Revolution a subset of the Hypercard
market, or will the Hypercard ultimately be a subset of Revolution? Where
are my efforts and resources best allocated?

If Revolution is successful, Hypercard will be but a footnote.

I managed marketing for the world's largest western wear retailer (yawn),
and have spent $25 million on media placement (advertising) during a 5 year
period when the company doubled in size.

My remarks about Revolution are forward-looking, on this basis (a quick
story):

I once asked the founder of the western wear company how much marketing
money he allocated in pursuit of rodeo, cowboys,  the hard core western
lifestyle.

His answer: Not a damn dime.

The logic: There's no where else for them to go. I don't have to pay to get
them in the store.

Lame logic? The retailer in question is a legend in the industry; in fact,
he was asked by Sam Walton to finance the startup of Wal-Mart.

--

Anybody reading this surely has enough computer industry experience to
realize that nothing compares to the herd instincts at work in the market.
All Hypercard devotees should have a fairly powerful sense of being an
outsider looking in. Have you ever pitched a Hypercard project to business,
other than a Mac buddy? What issues did you have to address?

From the standpoint of business owners, it is often not a question of
technology, but people. People come, people go. In making a strategic
commitment, what platform assures ready support in the marketplace? If I
need a new hire, will I have at least a dozen Revolution pros to pick from
in my local market? The herd instinct: go with safety in numbers - and with
a technology platform the market has already validated.

Is Revolution suitable for enterprise-level applications? I hope so.
Otherwise, no point name dropping Oracle, ODBC, mySQL backends... Commercial
applications?... Front End tasks feeding other enterprise-class solutions...

The one thing I don't see too much potential for in the future is custom
coded single-user free standing applications. Not to say it won't happen,
just that it won't be a viable business model for programmers who hope to
build equity.

If you were bidding on a programming job, would disclosure of Revolution
technology help or hurt your case? Would competing programmers snipe your
choice? Can you make a solid business case for Revolution? I'm not talking
about in your own mind, but enough to overcome doubt in the mind of a
buyer/decision maker unfamiliar with the technology, or the fact that it is
unproven. Can your recommendations be validated once your presentation is
over, when the prospective client picks up the phone and asks a dozen local
knowledgeable experts?

Hypercard enthusiasm and emotional attachment don't go far in the business
world today, usually no further than the immediate circle of a single
personality. If you doubt this, please contact a business broker and seek to
sell any Hypercard-based software development company. Ask what price it
might bring, should the owner care to cash out.

Let's all hope that the Made With Revolution page soon contains major,
highly credible enterprise-class solutions. Enthusiasm I one thing,
credibility another.

Let's not be emotional or delusional about the challenges that lie ahead. It
is great that Revolution 2.0 has shipped, and it will be great to get some
quality documentation and third-party books. But as my favorite Confucius
saying goes, He who climbs the 

Re: OT - Revolution and Its HyperCard Roots

[Richard Gaskin]

Danny Grizzle wrote:

 The one thing I don't see too much potential for in the future is custom
 coded single-user free standing applications. Not to say it won't happen,
 just that it won't be a viable business model for programmers who hope to
 build equity.

I'm not sure I understand: don't single-user free standing applications
constitute most software products?

 Let's not be emotional or delusional about the challenges that lie ahead. It
 is great that Revolution 2.0 has shipped, and it will be great to get some
 quality documentation and third-party books. But as my favorite Confucius
 saying goes, He who climbs the mountain sees the next mountain.

What do you recommend for overcoming potential perception issues?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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Re: threshold

[Geoff Canyon]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:32  AM, Chris De Maeyer wrote:

Wouldn`t it be a good idea to lower the entry threshold (price) to
attract a broader audience? The free edition is too limiting to be
usable, and the $299 is quite an amount for hobby users...
The Free Edition may seem limiting at first, but just two points:

First, in the abstract, through careful use of function handlers (not 
message handlers) you can dramatically expand the amount of code that 
will fit into ten lines.

Second, in the concrete, at least one user has built a massive (300+ 
windows) application, all in the Free Edition.

All of which is not to say anything about whether $299 is too steep for 
a hobbyist.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT - Revolution and Its HyperCard Roots

[Richard Gaskin]

Danny Grizzle wrote:

 On 5/31/03 3:09 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I'm not sure I understand: don't single-user free standing applications
 constitute most software products?
 
 Not in the database world. Even something seemingly as single-user as iTunes
 is much more interesting as a network aware, not just iTunes Store, but on a
 more basic level of CDDB interfacing.
 
 The game going forward is database *integration*, not solo custom database
 apps.

Ah, yes, for database apps.
I was thinking about apps in general.

 What do you recommend for overcoming potential perception issues?
 
 Avoiding evangelizing Revolution as the heir of Hypercard. In front of
 business, that plays like Eddie Murphy's character in Coming To America.

Amen to that, brother Danny.  No matter what fond memories we may have of
HyperCard, at this point they're just that, memories.  At least one
marketing VP at Apple is said to have narly complete disdain for HyperCard,
and if it dosn't gain favor within the company that made it, references too
HyperCard aren't likely to be any more useful elsewhere.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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Re: OT - Revolution and Its HyperCard Roots

[Judy Perry]

It's less about being emotional than about being dishonest.  Also,
ignoring Rev's Hypercard roots is itself an emotional response, just one
of a different flavor.

Judy

On Sat, 31 May 2003, Danny Grizzle wrote:

snip

 Hypercard enthusiasm and emotional attachment don't go far in the business
 world today, usually no further than the immediate circle of a single
 personality. If you doubt this, please contact a business broker and seek to
 sell any Hypercard-based software development company. Ask what price it
 might bring, should the owner care to cash out.

snip

 Let's not be emotional or delusional about the challenges that lie ahead. It
 is great that Revolution 2.0 has shipped, and it will be great to get some
 quality documentation and third-party books. But as my favorite Confucius
 saying goes, He who climbs the mountain sees the next mountain.

 Danny Grizzle

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Re: Books on RunRev

[Judy Perry]

That's odd given that it's listed on Apple's website for OSX apps... and
that there will be an upcoming event featuring Rev at MacHack.

Judy

On Sat, 31 May 2003, Danny Grizzle wrote:

 On 5/31/03 2:18 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If Apple (or any major OS vendor) wants to evangelize Rev, I think it would
  be in their mutual interest to do so.

 FWIW - I got a call from my Apple Xserve Business Development rep day before
 yesterday. I told him I was considering a project in Runtime Revolution,
 which he had never heard of. He said, there are 8 of us in this department
 at Apple, and we have upper management's ear. I told him Revolution 2.0 had
 shipped that day. He took down the RunRev URL and promised to check it out.

 Danny Grizzle


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Re: Stack and Substacks and user properties

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

Thanks, Richard, a very useful and informative post. This list rocks 
with GREAT people and experience.

sqb


  imbedded lists that don't change. What else are they good for?

General data storage.  Keep in mind that custom prps can be altered at
runtime even in a standalne, just not saved.  If you need them persistent



 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Nine to Five Reports

[Alan Gayne]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 02:41 PM, Tuviah M Snyder wrote:

What I eventually heard was that the RunRev people felt that all of 
the
features offered by Reports would ultimately be better implemented
totally within the Revolution environment - ultimately seeming to be
the operative term.
Hi Alan. I remember talking with you at MacWorld, and look forward to
discussing this in more detail this July.
I remember talking to you also and I'll see if I can make it there this 
July
I think the big problem with writing a reports package, is coming up 
with
something easy enough and powerful enough that developers use it. As
Richard stated many apps need to print custom reports, and it may be
easier to just roll your own.
As you know, I am NOT a traditional developer, but an empowered user 
who developed application for my direct use in my own enterprises.  
This was the real attraction of Hypercard - it was programming for the 
rest of us.  Having said this, I think that makes me a pretty good 
bell weather of the ease of use of Nine to Five Reports.  It WAS easy 
AND extremely intuitive.  As to it's power to make custom reports, well 
as each report document was fully scriptable, allowed fields to be 
populated by globals and able to add and change graphics on the fly 
under script control, I could usually find a way to make it print just 
about anything I ever needed.  I'm not really sure what else one might 
need but it seemed very open ended to me.  So I rolled my own on just 
about every report.

RunRev 2.0 features a new report generator, a powerful and well tested
stack based report generator, and I'm not sure how many people have 
even
tried it out.
I HAVE attempted to try it out.  But the current state of the 
documentation is EXTREMELY discouraging.  How about a step-b-step 
tutorial on this?  Maybe this thing CAN do most of the stuff I can do 
with Nine to Five Reports but I'll be darned if I can figure it out how 
to use it or even if it can do the job.  A little help - PLEASE!
I wrote a report generator 5 years ago for MetaCard called the MetaCard
Report Generator which featured fully customizable headers/footers,
templates, a Full scripting API, ect, expressions, ect.
http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/contributors/mcrg.htm

I honestly don't know if anyone actually used it in an application, I 
got
little to no feedback on it, and it never went out of beta. Perhaps it
was too complex?!
I'll try to take a look and let you know.

But Tuviah, I've SEEN some of the stuff you have done and there's no 
doubt in my mind of you technical capabilities which FAR exceed my own. 
 I don't understand why you just don't look at the way things were done 
in Nine to Five Reports (an admittedly dead product which I believe is 
officially closing down at the end of June) and use THAT as a guide for 
implement a similar feature set in a Rev based report generator.  I am 
almost CERTAIN that you are capable of this.
So I've moved to the conclusion that what we need is a report generator
based on SQL along the lines of Crystal Reports, DBReports, and various
other reporting packages, or even perhaps tighter integration with such
packages. Along with things like step by step Query Wizards, prebuilt
Templates, possible support for stacks as data sources, an Open
extensible scripting API so developers can write their own printing
modules, and additional integration with local databases
(Access/Valentina) perhaps we can have the ultimate cross platform 
report
generator in Rev.
Initially, it doesn't have to be the ultimate, it just has to be 
usable, affordable and expandable.  If it is written in Rev it will 
automatically be expandable, no?

Alan

Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Stack and Substacks and user properties

[Ken Norris]

*
 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:51:08 -0700
 Subject: Re: Stack and Substacks and user properties
 From: Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Exactly:
 
 http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2002-July/006141.html

Wowee! Anyone using RR should read that post. I haven't seen it before, but
now have it linked in my personal archives. Great stuff...thanks Richard.

BTW, I've been playing around with writing actual scripts into user props.
You can put conditional statements in them to cause stacks to mutate and
evolve. The implications are very broad in scope.

Ken N.

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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[erik hansen]

curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How about a function that returns the name of the handler that called the current handler? For example, this would be useful when a handler needs to reset each time a different handler calls it, or to keep track of different sets of data for each handler that calls it.
and for debugging.[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikhansen.org
Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

docs: print sections on an as-needed basis

[erik hansen]

I don't mean to suggest that printed docs have no place; they're especially useful in getting oriented in the early learning phase. Fortunately Geoff Canyon's nifty RTF exporter makes it convenient to print sections on an as-needed basis.===
this looks very promising[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikhansen.org
Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

Doing What Works

[Dan Shafer]

Wow.

All this really interesting reading and discussion about RR's roots and  
how exposed they ought to be has left me reeling a bit and perhaps  
wandering dazedly in a landscape of the past.

In the end, it seems to me that the following statements remain almost  
undeniably true.

1. RR does have its roots in HyperCard.
2. Sometimes, trying to explain a development environment like RR to  
someone who either is a professional programmer and therefore  
disdainful of such things, or a complete newcomer to development and  
ignorant of such things, is eased by the HyperCard analogy. I sometimes  
tell people who just need a quick summary, Revolution is like  
HyperCard in color on steroids, cross-platform.
3. Whether I should drag out HyperCard, blow the dust off of it and try  
to connect it to RR is a situational thing. If I think it'll help, I do  
it. If not, I don't.
4. If your programming efforts are carried out in a time or place or  
manner where the choice of tool is not relevant to anyone but you,  
choose Revolution and be quiet about it, at least until the user loves  
what you've done. If someone else dictates your tool, you get to decide  
how vociferously you want to argue for RR. (I have a very good friend  
who categorically refuses any programming assignment where he's not  
free to use Python, e.g.)

I'm using Python, JavaScript and RR exclusively these days. Each has  
its place in my toolbox and I won't take a project that doesn't either  
specify one of them or leave the choice to me. But I can afford to do  
that; I don't depend on programming for my entire income.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- 
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
Looking at technology from every angle
http://www.eclecticity.com
Latest Book Release: HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using CSS  
(http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/)

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Active X support

[Edwin Gore]

This was brought up again recently, and a while back when I was looking at adding 
freeDB support to my CD cataloging application, and I never got a firm answer for it, 
so I'm going to ask again.

Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to metaCard/RunRev? It seems like a no 
brainer since it would improve compatibility with legacy ToolBook apps, and since 
there is already support for the Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support would 
open up access to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls that have been 
developed for all sorts of purposes.

I decided to get RunRev because I wanted somethign that I could use to teach my 
daughter progamming concepts - I have not idea how to *really* program though, so 
creating my own Rev externals is pretty much out of the question, even though a lot of 
the ActiveX things I am interested have source code and could probably be adapted to 
RunRevs externals architecture, I ddon't have the skill to do that myself..being able 
to access ActiveX would allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I can't do on 
my own.
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Re: Active X support

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

The XCMD capability is there for backward compatibility - OS X 
doesn't work with the old XCMDs, only OS9.

Are you sure that what you want from  the PC-ONLY Active-X can't be 
done in native Transcript and custom made controls?

I once was quite attached to what I could do (had to do) with XCMDs 
in Hypercard as you are with 'Active-X' until I found Rev. So far I 
haven't needed any externals.

The more we use  'pure transcript' for applications, the better off 
we'll be -- as developers, users and sharers of techniques...in a 
cross-platform way..

sqb

Edwin Gore [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to metaCard/RunRev? It 
seems like a no brainer since it would improve compatibility with 
legacy ToolBook apps, and since there is already support for the 
Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support would open up access 
to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls that have been 
developed for all sorts of purposes.
but only for those on Windoze PCs!

I decided to get RunRev because I wanted somethign that I could use 
to teach my daughter progamming concepts -
your daughter should learn Transcript! Active-X won't teach her anything!

 I have not idea how to *really* program though, so creating my own 
Rev externals is pretty much out of the question, even though a lot 
of the ActiveX things I am interested have source code and could 
probably be adapted to RunRevs externals architecture, I ddon't have 
the skill to do that myself..being able to access ActiveX would 
allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I can't do on my own.
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RE: Re: Active X support

[Edwin Gore]

Well, I don't know of any way that I can calculate the DISCID of an Audio CD using 
just RunRev. The disc ID is a 8-digit hexadecimal (base-16) number, computed using 
data from a CD's Table-of-Contents (TOC) in MSF (Minute Second Frame) form. I can't 
find any support for accessing redbook CDs anywhere in RunRev.

I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I can't find a way to do it.

- --- Original Message --- -
From: Stephen Quinn Barncard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:53:56

The XCMD capability is there for backward
compatibility - OS X 
doesn't work with the old XCMDs, only OS9.

Are you sure that what you want from  the PC-ONLY
Active-X can't be 
done in native Transcript and custom made controls?


I once was quite attached to what I could do (had
to do) with XCMDs 
in Hypercard as you are with 'Active-X' until I
found Rev. So far I 
haven't needed any externals.

The more we use  'pure transcript' for
applications, the better off 
we'll be -- as developers, users and sharers of
techniques...in a 
cross-platform way..

sqb

Edwin Gore [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:


Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to
metaCard/RunRev? It 
seems like a no brainer since it would improve
compatibility with 
legacy ToolBook apps, and since there is already
support for the 
Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support
would open up access 
to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls
that have been 
developed for all sorts of purposes.

but only for those on Windoze PCs!


I decided to get RunRev because I wanted somethign
that I could use 
to teach my daughter progamming concepts -

your daughter should learn Transcript! Active-X
won't teach her anything!

  I have not idea how to *really* program though,
so creating my own 
Rev externals is pretty much out of the question,
even though a lot 
of the ActiveX things I am interested have source
code and could 
probably be adapted to RunRevs externals
architecture, I ddon't have 
the skill to do that myself..being able to access
ActiveX would 
allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I
can't do on my own.

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Re: Active X support

[Edwin Gore]

Oh, and I forgot - using MCI won't work - it reports things incorrectly for CDs with 
data tracks on them.

- --- Original Message --- -
From: Edwin Gore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:13:57

Well, I don't know of any way that I can calculate
the DISCID of an Audio CD using just RunRev. The
disc ID is a 8-digit hexadecimal (base-16) number,
computed using data from a CD's Table-of-Contents
(TOC) in MSF (Minute Second Frame) form. I can't
find any support for accessing redbook CDs anywhere
in RunRev.

I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I can't
find a way to do it.

- --- Original Message --- -
From: Stephen Quinn Barncard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:53:56

The XCMD capability is there for backward
compatibility - OS X 
doesn't work with the old XCMDs, only OS9.

Are you sure that what you want from  the PC-ONLY
Active-X can't be 
done in native Transcript and custom made
controls?


I once was quite attached to what I could do (had
to do) with XCMDs 
in Hypercard as you are with 'Active-X' until I
found Rev. So far I 
haven't needed any externals.

The more we use  'pure transcript' for
applications, the better off 
we'll be -- as developers, users and sharers of
techniques...in a 
cross-platform way..

sqb

Edwin Gore [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:


Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to
metaCard/RunRev? It 
seems like a no brainer since it would improve
compatibility with 
legacy ToolBook apps, and since there is already
support for the 
Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support
would open up access 
to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls

that have been 
developed for all sorts of purposes.

but only for those on Windoze PCs!


I decided to get RunRev because I wanted
somethign
that I could use 
to teach my daughter progamming concepts -

your daughter should learn Transcript! Active-X
won't teach her anything!

  I have not idea how to *really* program though,

so creating my own 
Rev externals is pretty much out of the question,

even though a lot 
of the ActiveX things I am interested have source

code and could 
probably be adapted to RunRevs externals
architecture, I ddon't have 
the skill to do that myself..being able to access

ActiveX would 
allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I

can't do on my own.

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u
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Re: Active X support

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Edwin Gore wrote:

 Well, I don't know of any way that I can calculate the DISCID of an Audio CD
 using just RunRev. The disc ID is a 8-digit hexadecimal (base-16) number,
 computed using data from a CD's Table-of-Contents (TOC) in MSF (Minute Second
 Frame) form. I can't find any support for accessing redbook CDs anywhere in
 RunRev.
 
 I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I can't find a way to do it.

On Windows, info about CDs can be gathered using MCI
(http://www.tactilemedia.com/info/MCI_Control_Info.html).  On Mac OS9, I'd
guess you'd use externals.  On OSX, I have no clue (is there even a system
level way to control CD playback other than AppleScripting iTunes or similar
player?), but maybe somebody else knows.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director

Tactile Media, Multimedia  Design
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Back With Unicode Blues

[Igor Couto]

Hello, Tuviah!

On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 02:20  AM, Tuviah M Snyder wrote:

There is a sample stack in the contributors which demonstrates
transferring unicode text from one field to another
Thank you for the tip!

I had already had a look at that stack. Indeed, the scripts work there, 
because the programmer is using 'set the unicode of field x to *[chunk 
of] field y kind of statements. Note that:

a) None of these script try to change only PART of a field - they reset 
the entire contents of the field at once:

 set the htmlText of LINE L of field x to...

b) None of these scripts use an intermediary step to build the new 
contents of the field:

put the unicodeText of field x into lNewText
put the unicodeText of field y after lNewText
set the unicodeText of field z to lNewText
I also suspect that some languages are more prone to running into 
problems than others - specifically, the ones that have to use a 
'unicode' keyboard, rather than the MacOS 'local scripts' keyboards.
To better and more fully illustrate the problem I've encountered, 
please have at look at this stack:

http://www.pixelmedia.com.au/Unicode_Problem.rev

Many thanks in advance,

--
Igor de Oliveira Couto
--
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RE: Re: Active X support

[Edwin Gore]

On Windows, info about CDs can be gathered using
MCI
guess you'd use externals.  On OSX, I have no clue
(is there even a system
level way to control CD playback other than
AppleScripting iTunes or similar
player?), but maybe somebody else knows.

In any case, each of those is a platform specific, non-crossplatform solution. So 
what's wrong with supoorting ActiveX for stuff like this? There are lots fo things 
RunRev doesn't support through scripting, and I don't have a problem with having 
another non-crossplatform option among the many others -  especially if it means I 
have a solution for ALL platforms, even if I have to work harder to implement them 
differently for each. 

I would rather see RunRev focus on opening up more ways to interface with externals on 
all platforms than develop, for example, a cross platform solution, supported by 
scripting language commands, solution to the problem of generating, for example, 
DISCIDs.
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Scott Raney]

On Sat, 31 May 2003 curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 How about a function that returns the name of the handler that called 
 the current handler? For example, this would be useful when a handler 
 needs to reset each time a different handler calls it, or to keep 
 track of different sets of data for each handler that calls it.

You can get this information with the executionContexts function.  I
hesitate to even mention it, however, because it was designed for
debugging purposes *only*: using it for conditional execution would
be, IMHO, heinous.  Use an optional parameter instead unless you want
your status as an xTalk wizard permanently revoked.
  Regards,
Scott

 Curry


Scott Raney  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.metacard.com
MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that...

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Updating status while running in background

[Stéphane Savard]

Hi,

I am trying Revolution at this time and I have the following problem, I 
can not have a visial status updated while my application is not 
running in foreground.

Here is the conditions:

- I am accessing a SOAP web service
- I am using Mac OS X
- I am experimenting with a standalone built from my stack
- I have programmed a loop with a time delay OR an idle task, bith give 
the same result
- My status element (field and buttons) are updated correctly with the 
changing values from the web service, when my application and stack are 
running in foreground
- My status element (field and buttons) are NOT updated when my window 
or application is visible but not in foreground.

Is there a limitation that an Window must be selected and in foreground 
to be updated?

Does a loop stop working when the stack is not in foreground?

Thanks,

Stephane Savard

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Re: Books on RunRev

[Victor Eijkhout]

In the extensive discussions regarding Nine to Five Reports I 
haven't noticed the mention of one incredibly important feature - 
that it came with a truly amazing online manual numbering some 1700+ 
pages which not only provided detailed explanations use and 
scripting examples of all of the special functions they had 
implement in their related products (Reports, Index,  Letters) but 
full documentation on Hypercard itself and extensive discussion on 
scripting,
Quite. I never used the 925 reports, but I had this manual (did they 
give it away for free?) and used it as my main Hypercard reference.
--
Victor Eijkhout [EMAIL PROTECTED], 329 Claxton, Comp Sci, UT, 
Knoxville TN 37996.
tel: 865 974 9308 (W), 865 673 6998 (H), 865 974 8296 (F)
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~eijkhout/
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RE: OT - Revolution and Its HyperCard Roots

[Chipp Walters]

I agree. In fact, when talking with Enterprise customers, I avoid words like
HyperCard, scripting, and Apple and instead focus on JIT compile, java-like,
and RAD. It also doesn't hurt to mention the MC engine has been around over
10 years.

RR ability to rapidly develop and deploy enterprise solutions (faster than
VB in my experience) gives it quite an edge over JAVA and other
cross-platform or browser based solutions.

best,

Chipp


  What do you recommend for overcoming potential perception issues?

 Avoiding evangelizing Revolution as the heir of Hypercard. In front of
 business, that plays like Eddie Murphy's character in Coming To America.
 Royalty doesn't matter when the lineage is beside the point (in the real
 world, daddy won't make a grand entrance in the end to resolve the story
 line).

 Danny Grizzle


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RE: Active X support

[Chipp Walters]

Edwin,

Back in my Mac days with SuperCard, if an XCMD wasn't available, I'd commission one. 
Pretty easy to write and one could usually pass the cost on to the customer. If 
there's a specific ActiveX control you'd like to see, why don't you just ask someone 
to write it?

Tuviah and Chris (my partner) have both looked into the 'ActiveX wrapper for MC' 
issue, and I believe both have come to the same conclusion... while it is *possible*, 
it's a lot of work and similar functions can be done with much less coding on a case 
by case basis. Also, both Scott Raney and the RR folks believe if the function is 
necessary enough, it should find it's way into the engine.

best,

Chipp

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Edwin Gore
 Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 8:23 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Active X support
 
 
 This was brought up again recently, and a while back when I was 
 looking at adding freeDB support to my CD cataloging application, 
 and I never got a firm answer for it, so I'm going to ask again.
 
 Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to metaCard/RunRev? It 
 seems like a no brainer since it would improve compatibility with 
 legacy ToolBook apps, and since there is already support for the 
 Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support would open up 
 access to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls that 
 have been developed for all sorts of purposes.
 
 I decided to get RunRev because I wanted somethign that I could 
 use to teach my daughter progamming concepts - I have not idea 
 how to *really* program though, so creating my own Rev externals 
 is pretty much out of the question, even though a lot of the 
 ActiveX things I am interested have source code and could 
 probably be adapted to RunRevs externals architecture, I ddon't 
 have the skill to do that myself..being able to access ActiveX 
 would allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I can't do 
 on my own.
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Script Editor as a document

[curry]

In Rev 2, both Mac and Windows, having just edited a script, if I 
click on my project stack and then press the up arrow, the script 
editor appears again! :-)

And it asked me to save the changes to the script editor stack 
which seemed like it thought I was trying to close a document stack.

Curry
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Good 2.0 features

[curry]

Besides the other 2.0 improvements, I though I would say hooray for 
the ability to get the mousedown of a locked field that can receive 
the focus--before, I think it had to be unfocusable to do that. This 
is a great improvement and allows many easier things that were 
difficult before.

Curry
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 08:45 PM, Scott Raney wrote:

You can get this information with the executionContexts function.
I found that the syntax for this particular function is 
executionContexts or the executionContexts, but not 
executionContexts(), should anyone want to try this for debugging 
purposes only.

Dar Scott

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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 10:34 PM, Dar Scott wrote:

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 08:45 PM, Scott Raney wrote:

You can get this information with the executionContexts function.
I found that the syntax for this particular function is 
executionContexts or the executionContexts, but not 
executionContexts(), should anyone want to try this for debugging 
purposes only.
Oh.

put executioncontexts is among the lines of the propertyNames
=
true
Dar

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Re: Books on RunRev

[Ken Norris]

**
 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:18:28 -0700
 Subject: Re: Books on RunRev
 From: Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Ken Norris wrote:

 Besides the original program developed by Bill Atkinson, et al, and thew
 later teams at Apple, I believe the dramatic success of Hypercard was due in
 part to those prolific manuals available for it.
 
 Or the other way around.
--
No argument. The manuals were needed partly because HC had gained enough
popularity that the folks who loved it and had time enough to dig deeper
wanted to help others develop better stacks, which would benefit everyone,
and there was a market for it, too. Especially with some of the junk
floating around.
--
 Remember that HyperCard was pre-installed on every Mac for many years, and
 its development and marketing heavily subsidized by the mother ship (it was
 seen as a strategic element that helped distinguish the Mac advantage).
--
Perhaps, but I myself never saw a Mac with HC pre-installed, i.e., it was
always an _option_ when you installed the OS. But the last part is true for
sure. Apple was shooting for schools, small businesses, home users, etc.,
and it worked.
-- 
 If Apple (or any major OS vendor) wants to evangelize Rev, I think it would
 be in their mutual interest to do so.  But until then, comparisons of
 marketing any non-OS-vendor product to one built by an OS vendor will carry
 implications that don't apply fairly.
--
I had to read that over a couple of times, but if you're saying what I think
you are, then my response is that I didn't mean to infer that RR should be
expected to do it all, nor right this second...that would indeed be unfair,
but I don't see Apple or MS or IBM championing RR with megabucks for manual
publishing either, so that's non-sequiter.

However, I'm absolutely _elated_ to see that others want better
documentation too, and even more that there are those on this list willing
to participate in seeing it come about. That says a lot for this growing
community. In fact, since I don't think I can contribute much technically,
I'd be willing to take other assignments, sometime in late June.

The very best books that came out for HC (IMHO) were published
independently, i.e., with no special support from Apple.
--snip
 with the product in continual development,
 any set of printed docs will be complete for only a few months.
--
If you put it together in modules, like I suggested before, you could simply
edit what's already there with the changes, including index addenda which
wouldn't often be necessary, and put it up on a website. Then us users could
simply print them out and add/replace pages in our books. That part isn't
rocket science.
--
 As with the
 Web, getting accustomed to reading online will ultimately pay for itself in
 overall productivity gains by encouraging learning directly in the living
 laboratory.  
--
I wish I could depend on that, but I can't. I'd like to be able to curl up
in bed and read about user properties or window management theory.
--
 There is no more effective way to learn Rev than by experimentation.
--
Perhaps, but it's not the only way. That's what this list is for. Why would
anyone want to spend hours of frustration trying to make something work when
there is an answer already at hand. We all do what we can. I remember
helping out a couple of folks on this list before I ever got Rev 1.0 Pro,
but the confirmation came from trying out something I found in HyperTalk
2.2 The Book. But this latest revision is way past that now.
--
 I don't mean to suggest that printed docs have no place; they're especially
 useful in getting oriented in the early learning phase.  Fortunately Geoff
 Canyon's nifty RTF exporter makes it convenient to print sections on an
 as-needed basis.
--
I remember. I ran out of paper.
--snip
 Show me a Macromedia or Adobe product documented as thoroughly as Jeanne has
 done with Rev and I'll eat this post at the next SoCal RevDevCon (ink jet
 inks are non-toxic, aren't they?)
--
No one's debating that, Richard. IMO, Jeanne does a great job and doesn't
need any defense. But what I know about PS came from reading third party
books open to the appropriate pages, to the left of my keyboard, the display
window with my project on it in front, and the mousepad to the right. That's
the way everyone I've ever known does it.

I'll stand behind that statement all the way. There simply isn't enough real
estate on a monitor to do it all properly.
--
 Sure, the docs are as imperfect as the world we live in, and to RunRev's
 credit it seems the feedback here is heard and acted upon to the best of
 their abilities.
--
I don't think anyone is debating that either, certainly no one who's spent
time on this list.
-- 
 But with all due respect to the good readers here, it's a rare post about
 something missing in the docs that can't be 

Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[curry]

In your case, Curry, you might want to add an (optional?) parameter
that specifies the data set.  Add a programming style in that the data
set name is the handler name.
I wonder what value should be returned for Curry's callingHandler if it
is a function or an event or a message.
Yeah, I was about to add a parameter like that, then I decided to 
double-check that this type of feature hadn't been added to 2.0, 
because something along these lines had been discussed a while bac. 
So I decided to suggest it again.

I would say the callingHandler could return just the handler name and 
if we need the object, it would be good to have a separate function 
like the callingObject, or callingControl, or what the heck, as 
Richard said the callerID!

Curry
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Re: Updating status while running in background

[Howard Bornstein]

Does a loop stop working when the stack is not in foreground?

I'm not using a loop, but I have a stack with a send xxx to me in 1 
second statement that updates a counter. The counter change is visible 
even if the stack is not the foreground application.

So there must be something else going on with your stack that's keeping 
the window from updating in the background.

Howard Bornstein

D E S I G N  E Q
www.designeq.com
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[curry]

  How about a function that returns the name of the handler that called
  the current handler? For example, this would be useful when a handler
  needs to reset each time a different handler calls it, or to keep
  track of different sets of data for each handler that calls it.
You can get this information with the executionContexts function.  I
hesitate to even mention it, however, because it was designed for
debugging purposes *only*: using it for conditional execution would
be, IMHO, heinous.  Use an optional parameter instead unless you want
your status as an xTalk wizard permanently revoked.
  Regards,
Scott
Wow, now that's more like it!!! :-) Unbelievably neat. Maybe there 
can be a non-debug version?

In the meantime, wooohooo! I did have a real hunch something like 
that might have been added, I just didn't realize it might be 
undocumented.

Seriously, this type of capability is a major key for more powerful 
and smarter handlers. Thanks for the feature and for mentioning it, 
and hope it is elevated to more than only debug status soon!

Thanks,

Curry
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Scrolling Background Problems in 2.0

[Michael Robinson]

I'm having a odd problem with 2.0, when I open a project I started in 
1.1.1. When the stack window opens, it's the scrolling background's 
left edge  snaps to the center of the stack window and resizes 
itself. So you are looking at a window with nothing from the center 
left, and the scrolling background, has been resized and occupies the 
right half of the window.

The project works great under 1.1.1.

Any Ideas?

Mike

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Re: Scrolling Background Problems in 2.0

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Michael Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm having a odd problem with 2.0, when I open a
 project I started in 
 1.1.1. When the stack window opens, it's the
 scrolling background's 
 left edge  snaps to the center of the stack window
 and resizes 
 itself. So you are looking at a window with nothing
 from the center 
 left, and the scrolling background, has been resized
 and occupies the 
 right half of the window.
 
 The project works great under 1.1.1.
 
 Any Ideas?
 
 Mike
 

Hi Mike,

Try removing all geometry settings for the group and
setting them again. If the problem persists, try
removing the cREVGeneral[revUniqueID] custom property
and use the message box to execute 
  revCacheGeometry
  revUpdateGeometry
Let us know if that still doesn't cut it.

Best regards,

Jan Schenkel.

=
As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time.  (La 
Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Active X support

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Chipp, Tuviah, Kevin,

It is simply impossible to extend the engine with all functions... When
having Active-X support, we have access to so much more... COM, DLL's VB
API's a lot of Java-applets etc...
The biggest problem (and I really loovee working with
RR) is using external commands  methods... We can't take advantage of all
the work those very clever C++ or Java developers did, with Active-X support
we can.
No, I don't agree that it's not worth the coding, it will give us
scanning-capabilities, image-rendering capabilities, custom encription,
inter-application-communication, OCR, all usable from within RR projects...
WE NEED THIS!!! Now I have to do those things in Visual Basic, compile them
as executables, (collect a thousand VB DLLs etc) and run these small exe
files through the commandline. Exchange of info between these programs and
RR go via text-files and it works, but it is so tricky to do this...

Please gang, give us the Active X support, it would solve a whole lot of
trouble...

Ton Kuypers




 From: Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:56:14 -0500
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: Active X support
 
 Edwin,
 
 Back in my Mac days with SuperCard, if an XCMD wasn't available, I'd
 commission one. Pretty easy to write and one could usually pass the cost on to
 the customer. If there's a specific ActiveX control you'd like to see, why
 don't you just ask someone to write it?
 
 Tuviah and Chris (my partner) have both looked into the 'ActiveX wrapper for
 MC' issue, and I believe both have come to the same conclusion... while it is
 *possible*, it's a lot of work and similar functions can be done with much
 less coding on a case by case basis. Also, both Scott Raney and the RR folks
 believe if the function is necessary enough, it should find it's way into the
 engine.
 
 best,
 
 Chipp
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Edwin Gore
 Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 8:23 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Active X support
 
 
 This was brought up again recently, and a while back when I was
 looking at adding freeDB support to my CD cataloging application,
 and I never got a firm answer for it, so I'm going to ask again.
 
 Are there any plans to add ActiveX support to metaCard/RunRev? It
 seems like a no brainer since it would improve compatibility with
 legacy ToolBook apps, and since there is already support for the
 Mac-only XCMD standard. Adding ActiveX support would open up
 access to thousands of extremely useful ActiveX controls that
 have been developed for all sorts of purposes.
 
 I decided to get RunRev because I wanted somethign that I could
 use to teach my daughter progamming concepts - I have not idea
 how to *really* program though, so creating my own Rev externals
 is pretty much out of the question, even though a lot of the
 ActiveX things I am interested have source code and could
 probably be adapted to RunRevs externals architecture, I ddon't
 have the skill to do that myself..being able to access ActiveX
 would allow me to do a whole bunch of neat stuff that I can't do
 on my own.
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Re: Is this a bug? [was: Rogue visual effect sends rev awol]

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 11:44PM -0700 5/25/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
visual effect dissolve
hide me

Now this was in the button that controls hiding and showing images, so it is
used about 60 times.
[...]
2 Rev just sat on the visual effects without letting me do anything - OK, so
I was at fault in the script,  but I could have done with some useful
feedback.

It actually was executing the visual effect. The problem (well, the problem
with not seeing it) is because the dissolve effect only affects pixels that
change from the source to the destination - so if the source and
destination are visually identical (as is the case after the first
dissolve, because the button was already hidden), a dissolve effect isn't
visible.

If the effect were something like zoom open, you would have seen it 60 times.

--
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
http://www.runrev.com/


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Re: Stack and Substacks... And I love Revolution 2!

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 12:54 AM -0700 5/30/03, François Cuneo wrote:
I have read all the doc From SuperCard to Revolution, but some basic things
like the Stack and Substack are not documented (or I have not find Where).

Look at About main stacks, substacks, and the organization of a stack file.


Finally: is it possible to search substack somewher in the online doc to
find in all the topics where it's explained?

There's not a global search (yet), but you can search in any documentation
section using the box at the top. (To search the full text of that section,
press Option-Return or Alt-Return.)

--
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
http://www.runrev.com/


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Re: Table object manipulation

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 4:29PM -0700 5/29/03, Alex Rice wrote:
Are the built in formatters documented? I can't figure out what's
expected to go into the With field after you select from the Using
pulldown of formatters.

It varies depending on the format choice:

- For prefixes and suffixes, the prefix or suffix
- For decimal numbers and scientific notation, the number of decimal places
- For a date, the formats short, long, system, or internet
- For percentages, the value of 100%

--
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
http://www.runrev.com/


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Re: Release 2.0r2 - Unexplained CPU usage shoots to 100% - Part 2

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 2:57PM -0700 5/30/03, Roger Amar wrote:
I'm working on a stack sizing 640x480.
When I go to last card of my stack, it is out of screen and the height of it
is 64738. Then I go back to cd 1 which the height is now 1758 !!
If I set the height of it to 480 and go back last card, I find a height of
64738 !

Do you have a script that sets the stack's height? Maybe there's an error.

--
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
http://www.runrev.com/


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Re: Active X support

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

Active X -- Great for windoze folks, useless for Mac and Unix...
Wouldn't this be against the 'cross platform concept of Rev?
And isn't there some kind of dll or xcmd support for PCs in Rev already?

Chipp, Tuviah, Kevin,

It is simply impossible to extend the engine with all functions... When
having Active-X support, we have access to so much more... COM, DLL's VB
API's a lot of Java-applets etc...
The biggest problem (and I really loovee working with
RR) is using external commands  methods... We can't take advantage of all
the work those very clever C++ or Java developers did, with Active-X support
we can.
No, I don't agree that it's not worth the coding, it will give us
scanning-capabilities, image-rendering capabilities, custom encription,
inter-application-communication, OCR, all usable from within RR projects...
WE NEED THIS!!! Now I have to do those things in Visual Basic, compile them
as executables, (collect a thousand VB DLLs etc) and run these small exe
files through the commandline. Exchange of info between these programs and
RR go via text-files and it works, but it is so tricky to do this...
Please gang, give us the Active X support, it would solve a whole lot of
trouble...
Ton Kuypers


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Re: Active X support

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

There is support for XCMD and AppleScript on the Mac... Works fine, no,
works great!
But none of these (or equivalents) are available on Windows...

When developing X-platform applications, as a developer you are responsible
for making sure your application indeed is X-platform, but lack of the same
options on Mac and Windows prevents us in doing so...

T.

 From: Stephen Quinn Barncard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 00:35:18 -0700
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Active X support
 
 Active X -- Great for windoze folks, useless for Mac and Unix...
 Wouldn't this be against the 'cross platform concept of Rev?
 
 And isn't there some kind of dll or xcmd support for PCs in Rev already?
 
 Chipp, Tuviah, Kevin,
 
 It is simply impossible to extend the engine with all functions... When
 having Active-X support, we have access to so much more... COM, DLL's VB
 API's a lot of Java-applets etc...
 The biggest problem (and I really loovee working with
 RR) is using external commands  methods... We can't take advantage of all
 the work those very clever C++ or Java developers did, with Active-X support
 we can.
 No, I don't agree that it's not worth the coding, it will give us
 scanning-capabilities, image-rendering capabilities, custom encription,
 inter-application-communication, OCR, all usable from within RR projects...
 WE NEED THIS!!! Now I have to do those things in Visual Basic, compile them
 as executables, (collect a thousand VB DLLs etc) and run these small exe
 files through the commandline. Exchange of info between these programs and
 RR go via text-files and it works, but it is so tricky to do this...
 
 Please gang, give us the Active X support, it would solve a whole lot of
 trouble...
 
 Ton Kuypers
 
 
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Re: The Case For A RunRev Player (was Stack and Substacks)

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 19:47 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Players can be useful for things that have a common focus, and a lot of
developers make them for their own collections of related wares.  But
attempting to deploy general application designs in a player introduces
other challenges, including menu management, name space 
considerations, and
general design issues (this topic came up recently on the SC list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SuperCard/message/11596).

So what would make good candidates for distribution in a player?  What 
would
be an example of things that share a common focus?

Agree with Richard. A many developer of Authoring-tools are leaving the 
Players for double clickable Standalone Distributions...
Most of the regular users dont like to download Players, Plugins and 
all that kind of stuff..
But, what are about a Flash-player-plugin-building Distribution 
stack? So that any Rev stack can be viewed directly in the Browser 
window.
Whole sites could be done without dooing the same again in html...
Stacks can be streamed directly into the browser without QT, RM, WMP
Running a rev app in the browser, connect directly to SQL dbs.
Save also developing time for distributing rev apps on different 
mediums (again no QT, RM, WMP)
And a lot more...

One tip more: pls dont be focused to stronge at your favorite 
product. Pls have a look at others too. see the great success of 
Qarbon, when they changed their viewlet fileformat from Java to swf 
format...)
I personally dont like Flash, but its imho the only Standard in the web 
which is not in danger to be killer from M$ because M$ is married with 
sfw. Before killing it M$ will buy MM. And then is time enough for SVG.

I m not a scripter, so I dont know how to do that and how its possible. 
But I know THAT would give rev the chance to become a real killer app.
Sorry if my idea is stupid, because of my ignorance in hardcore 
developing...

My 2cent...

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
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Re: Books on RunRev

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 19:54 Europe/Vienna, Mark Talluto wrote:

I was at the bookstore last night.  I found three books on RealBasic.  
The numbers go up from there with other languages/applications.  I 
would love to see a book on Rev in the bookstore.  While it is great 
to have tech docs built into an app, nothing beats holding good old 
paper in your hands.
And now pls try to imagin if you are in a GERMAN bookstore...

It appears that there are a good amount of people hear that would be 
interested in being able to crack open a book on Rev as well.  Are you 
proposing that we come together and work on a book?   I love the 
O'Reilly books.  What animal would we put on it?
Phoenix (hopefully)

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
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Re: Books on RunRev

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 21:18 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

If Apple (or any major OS vendor) wants to evangelize Rev, I think it 
would
be in their mutual interest to do so.  But until then, comparisons of
marketing any non-OS-vendor product to one built by an OS vendor will 
carry
implications that don't apply fairly.
I dont think Apple will evangelize a product which is focussed in 
*crossplatform* developing...

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
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Re: Books on RunRev [OT]

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Wolfgang M. Bereuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 
 On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 19:54 Europe/Vienna,
 Mark Talluto wrote:
 
 [snip]
 
  It appears that there are a good amount of people
 hear that would be 
  interested in being able to crack open a book on
 Rev as well.  Are you 
  proposing that we come together and work on a
 book?   I love the 
  O'Reilly books.  What animal would we put on it?
 Phoenix (hopefully)
 

And then have people pick it up thinking it's the next
Harry Potter book ? I see where this is going : you
want to ignite the Revolution by converting the
children, right?  *grin*

Jan Schenkel :-)

=
As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time.  (La 
Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Active X support

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 09:35 Europe/Vienna, Stephen Quinn Barncard 
wrote:

Active X -- Great for windoze folks, useless for Mac and Unix...
Wouldn't this be against the 'cross platform concept of Rev?
Exactly ... I think thera are a lot of Windoze only to do everything 
but nothing... tools, imho we dont need another one...
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter

Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
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Re: Books on RunRev

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

Why not? They do it! Some of Apple's best products have been cross-platform!
Laserwriters, Quicktime, Filemaker Pro, Firewire, iPod, soon iTunes
sqb



Wolfgang M. Bereuter wrote:

I dont think Apple will evangelize a product which is focussed in 
*crossplatform* developing...

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter


On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 21:18 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

If Apple (or any major OS vendor) wants to evangelize Rev, I think it would
be in their mutual interest to do so.  But until then, comparisons of
marketing any non-OS-vendor product to one built by an OS vendor will carry
implications that don't apply fairly.
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Saving stack while running as a standalone

[Martin Meili]

Saving data in an external revolution-stack while running a standalone works
without any problems if I do this on my Mac.
If I try doing the same running Virtual PC (Win95) the data to be saved in
the external stack are not saved.
This behaviour is contrary to the advice I get from Tip of the week on the
Revolution homepage.
Is anybody out there who can help me?

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Table object manipulation

[Till Bandi]

Jeanne

is there a description in the documentation? For instance:  How can I 
use the useSystemDate in connection with the date format?

Thanks

Till

Am Sonntag, 01.06.03 um 06:59 Uhr schrieb Jeanne A. E. DeVoto:

At 4:29PM -0700 5/29/03, Alex Rice wrote:
Are the built in formatters documented? I can't figure out what's
expected to go into the With field after you select from the Using
pulldown of formatters.
It varies depending on the format choice:

- For prefixes and suffixes, the prefix or suffix
- For decimal numbers and scientific notation, the number of decimal 
places
- For a date, the formats short, long, system, or internet
- For percentages, the value of 100%

--
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
http://www.runrev.com/
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Re: Active X support

[curry]

There is support for XCMD and AppleScript on the Mac... Works fine, no,
works great!
But none of these (or equivalents) are available on Windows...
When developing X-platform applications, as a developer you are responsible
for making sure your application indeed is X-platform, but lack of the same
options on Mac and Windows prevents us in doing so...
  Active X -- Great for windoze folks, useless for Mac and Unix...
  Wouldn't this be against the 'cross platform concept of Rev?
I am for supporting ActiveX. This is not against developing 
cross-platform, rather it's precisely for it. Some of the support for 
ActiveX could be invisible to us and handle things on Windows that 
are handled different ways on other platforms; other support could be 
specific to ActiveX capabilities.

So I think it would be a good thing, and open up a lot of 
possibilities. But whether there is time to do it and it should be 
prioritized over other features is another question. Not sure

Curry
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another drag 'n drop question

[Yves COPPE]

Hi,

I'm workiong on Mac OS X..2.6

I now have learn how to drag 'n drop an image from the desktop onto a 
rev window (thank you chipp !) and an inamge between two Rev windows 
(thank you tuviah !).

Now how can I drag 'n drop an image from a Rev window to the desktop ?

When I mean Image, it's a .png or .jpg file.

Thank you...
--
Greetings.
Yves COPPE

Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re:threshold...and Windows users

[STKing42]

Sorry about this, but this post tends to cross a few threads! SBE price, Active X and Documentation

As an SBE user, I don't think that the SBE price is too high for 'Home' developers, I myself have just bought SBE and I am only intending to develop home apps, helpful things for my wifes school and apps for a local swimming club. And not as cross platform, Windows/NT only as alternatives to VB, VBA or similar (are many apps produced by RR users truly intended as cross platform?)

My purchase follows from a free copy of 1.1.1. pro issued with UK PC-PLUS magazine not long ago. I was impressed with the ability of RR to produce usable apps in a very short time, with little or no experience. As a result, I was perfectly happy to pay the SBE price which is not unreasonable when compared with packages for royalty free distributables in VB or C++ etc.

However, after monitoring the excellent forum dialogue over the last few days, one thing that is worrying me is whether, as a Windows user, this was a sound long term investment.

There have been excellent discussions on documentation and Active X, and they seem to me to boil down to OlderMac users have the required background (from Hypercard etc?) or why do we need active X if its not available on MAC (which has its own form I think which I get the impression can be more easily used by RR). 

To me RR is an excellent product that can rival VB or other languages "windows" users are familiar with. Certainly I had no prior knowledge of the language and I bought it after about 1 months use - I think this says a lot. But, I believe that in the UK, where the vast majority of 'PC' users use windows, it will only become popular if it supports Windows features and extensions as well as it does MAC features, and due account is taken that windows user know nothing of the heritage of Hypercard , RR etc and the language structure is so different to VB for example that its sometimes not obvious even where to look!

I make these points because I got into RR through UK PC-PLUS, which is a windows only magazine - so I guess the Rev team would like to raise the windows profile (which is a big market in the UK) and so windows features and solutions would seem very important. The more users -the more chance RR has of success!

By the way, many thanks to all the forum contributors - your knowledge is outstanding! I have learned a lot already in just a few days of monitoring.

Best regards
Steve King (a windows Rev user)

PS, if I have misunderstood some of the active X arguments, and the MAC is affected as much as windows - apologies, this unfortunately reflects the non-existant knowledge the average Brit has of the MAC!


Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:19 -0700
Subject: Re: threshold
From: Geoff Canyon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 11:32 AM, Chris De Maeyer wrote:

 Wouldn`t it be a good idea to lower the entry threshold (price) to
 attract a broader audience? The free edition is too limiting to be
usable, and the $299 is quite an amount for hobby users...

The Free Edition may seem limiting at first, but just two points:

First, in the abstract, through careful use of function handlers (not 
message handlers) you can dramatically expand the amount of code that 
will fit into "ten" lines.

Second, in the concrete, at least one user has built a massive (300+ 
windows) application, all in the Free Edition.

All of which is not to say anything about whether $299 is too steep for 
a hobbyist.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[curry]

I wrote:

I would say the callingHandler could return just the handler name and
if we need the object, it would be good to have a separate function
like the callingObject, or callingControl, or what the heck, as
Richard said the callerID!
That was before I saw about the executionContexts. The way it's 
designed for debugging is the way, or very close to the way it would 
need to be for other uses. The executionContexts gives the object, 
handler, and line number. That's necessary to uniquely identify the 
call. It also gives the chain of calls leading to the current 
handler, and after seeing that, I think having the full info there if 
you need it is also good.

So, I like the way the executionContexts works. It, or something 
almost just like it, would be the answer.

Curry
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Cross platform needed? Was: threshold...and Windows users

[Marian Petrides]

>>> (are many apps produced by RR users truly intended as cross platform?)

Mine are.  I prefer to develop on the Mac but most medical education applications need to be available for PC as well.  I settled on Rev because it was exactly what I was looking for--a Hypercard-like program that was truly cross platform!

Marian

documentation - full text search useful?

[revolution]

I've been following the discussions about the roots of Rev in Hypercard, and the 
problems that people have with using the documentation.

I think it is really quite useful for those new to Rev to be able to get their heads 
round the fundamental principles of Hypercard.  (I think maybe there could/should be 
an orientation tutorial that would server this purpose).  I know I found Goodman's 
book a bit too simple, and find the Kamins et al. book far more useful (although that 
probably jumps in a bit too far from where Goodman starts...)

About the documentation that comes with Rev.  Given that it is pretty damn thorough, 
and very well hyper-linked throughout, one of the only ways in which I can see it 
being made more easy for people to find information within it is if the whole thing 
was searchable.

I think I could quite easily provide a web site with a search facility that would be 
able to do a fast search of all the documentation.

Of course I do not want to go ahead and do this unless it would be useful to others, 
and is sanctioned by Runrev as not breaching their copyright (the legal blurb says 
something to the effect that the documentation cannot be redistributed in any form 
whatsoever).

As an example of what this would achieve: I exported the entire documentation set to 
my hard disk, and searched for the word 'memory' (just a word chosen at randdom).  I 
found 110 hits, but browsing through the documentation I could only find two or three. 
 Admittedly, some of my hits will be cross-references, but still I think this would 
provide quite an exhaustive way for people to be able to trawl through the 
documentation.

Regards,
Bernard
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Re: Re: Discover revolution, would like comparison with ToolBook

[rebolask]

- it doesn't seem to support Activex whereas Toolbook does (Toolbook is
not multiplatform)
I wonder how many of our developers would find support ActiveX useful?
I don't know RunRev but the problem with Toolbook is that they never really upgrade to 
pass the 64 K barrier even in 32 bit platform :). So although you can developp a tree 
component in Toolbook (in fact there was one in the library) you was limited to 64 Ko 
for each page. OK you can cope yourself with the 64 Ko barrier ... but then you won't 
have time to do what you are paying for: developping the core functionalities of your 
application and not doing system programming. Also if you really need a commercial 
look and feel and high performance and functionalities only professional activex 
component can give it with no time hassle. So I am very inclined to chose Delphi for 
that but I don't like the classical development tool approach they are very retarded 
in concept compared to Toolbook but you can cope with high standards of GUI 
development for users which is a necessity for commercial products. 


For example I didn't see any tree component so how would you show for
example a xml-type structure?
You can find a sample treeview control which can read and display xml,
and display hundreds of elements in milliseconds in the Revolution 2.0
samples folder. If you look at the script you'll notice it's less than
120 lines, and can display images.  This is not to say that an xml tree
view object would not be useful in the engine, but by giving developers
things like support for images in fields and perhaps enhanced support for
things like parent scripts as Richard mentioned, it's not difficult to
roll your own and it will work for all platforms.

OK thanks I keep the url and will look at it.


Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought
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Re: Re: Active X support

[rebolask]

In this Darwinian evolution it is astonishing that there are still mac survivors they 
must have a special gene ;)

 Active X -- Great for windoze folks, useless for Mac and Unix...
 Wouldn't this be against the 'cross platform concept of Rev?
 
 Exactly ... I think thera are a lot of Windoze only to do everything
 but nothing... tools, imho we dont need another one...
 regards
 Wolfgang M. Bereuter
 
H
So if you can't have it on the Mac, you don't want it to be possible on the
PC as well?
Then how about killing AppleScript support on the Mac?

Ton Kuypers

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Disk space function

[Scott Kinder]

Hi,

I'm trying to make a 'digital tape recorder' and it would be ideal to let people know 
in an updated dialog:

Current file size of your recording is: 2mb
Space left on your drive is: 20gb

Looks like you might have to use the detailed directories and just add everything up.  
Has anyone worked out anything better?

Thanks,
Scott

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