Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Andrew Kluthe]

"Somehow statements about how ultimately more practical and economical it is 
to have an Intel Mac ( any Intel Mac* ) be one's main machine rather than a 
PC and a Hackintosh has turned into some kind of discourse about 'class 
struggle' between the rich Macintosh fanboys and the poor struggling Windows 
/ Linux guys. Good lord."

Clever misrepresentation of the argument.

My point was, your seemingly snarky remark that appeared to insinuate that I
have the means to purchase another machine to develop on, reeked of classism
and the false dichotomy of "the rich Macintosh fanboys vs the poor
struggling Windows / Linux guys" you now so condescendingly speak about. I
personally don't care what hardware you are using or what means you use to
do your work. Technology is indifferent to me. The fetish over the form that
the commodity assumes is not. However, I do care about snarky sectarianism
being spewed out as if such class divisions are not a reality. I did not
start this argument, my friend. I am simply pursuing it. You have been
called out. Yet, this is not the proper forum for such a discussion. As
such, this will be my final post regarding it.

Class war rages on every day, whether you choose to believe otherwise and
delve into your career and technology addiction trying to escape it.  Why
build such walls around yourself? One day your career will have no more use
for you. I hope that one day I will have no more use for my career.

My apologies to the rest of the list for this series of posts. This is not
just a troll attempt.
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Chipp Walters]

Stephen,

I think the issue is one of perspective. I know of several
professionals running Windows on a virtual machine inside a Mac to do
billable work when necessary. I see no reason of others working the
other way around. While I wouldn't personally recommend it, one fella
has a Mac but works 90% of the time in a Windows VM.

Go figure.
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[stephen barncard]

Hey I don't want to get into a 'pissing match' about platforms. And I am
stating  what I need to do to survive as well as support my clients, and I
am not judging anyone.

Somehow statements about how ultimately more practical and economical it is
to have an Intel Mac ( any Intel Mac* ) be one's main machine rather than a
PC and a Hackintosh has turned into some kind of discourse about 'class
struggle' between the rich Macintosh fanboys and the poor struggling Windows
/ Linux guys. Good lord.  Penny wise and pound foolish, IMHO.

One's family has nothing to do with my statement that MacOS should be tested
on the hardware that it was made to run.  I don't want to work around a
possible hardware problem caused by somebody's BIOS patches - the computer
hardware aspect of the hack has a level of maintaining and debugging that I
would rather no worry about - I'm writing software.

A stable OS working with the hardware beneath my coding is essential. Can I
be sure I'm getting the right updates? - what happens when the hacked
hardware fails? Just too much uncertainty. The reason Macs work well for me
is the integration of the OS with their tightly standardized hardware.

If I am going do a job, I try to get the best tools I can, otherwise I am
wasting my client's time with delays and my time I can't bill for, and I
also want the support of the OS company (Apple) if something goes wrong.
Uptime is very important to me and my clients. The so called 'added expense'
of hardware that works is worth real dollars back in reliability. This is
what I mean by a 'professional coder' and if you felt insulted by that, I
apologize. But this is what a professional does.

This really can't be about the 'cost of ownership' when a quick review of
ebay reveals 10 1.66 Core Duo Mac Minis with *Buy It Now and a 90 day
warrantygoing
for about $325. Overpriced?

I've been discussing the idea of a cross-platform world all along - It's
just that from a hardware issue, My opinion is that the Intel Mac is a good
way to run and test them all, and personally I'm pleased that the Rodeo team
has focused on the kind of hardware I and many other cross platform
developers here use.

Here's to a cross-platform (but Webkit-enabled) world.



On 21 July 2010 20:30, Andrew Kluthe  wrote:

>
> If you are concerned with being a "professional coder", thats quite
> different. I don't seek a Mac OS out for any kind of "experience" it might
> give me. I do it to feed my family. Understand that beyond feeding my
> family
> I have no aspirations to be a professional anything. If you can afford to
> drop your own money on overpriced hardware, then I suppose you aren't in
> any
> kind of place to judge what I have to do to survive.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Stephen Barncard-4 [via Runtime
> Revolution]
> 
> 
> >
> > wrote:
>
> > Hackintosh -  No thanks. somehow that's just not the same experience. I'd
> > rather have the real thing and everything working and updatable.
> Certainly
> > not something a professional coder would ever do.
> >
> >
> >
>



Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Bob Sneidar]

 always the practical ones aren't you guys? ;-)

Bob


On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Jim Ault wrote:

> 
> On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:31 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
>> At some point I know you will provide a list of what syntax is allowed, and 
>> update it as time goes on. Waiting with baited breath! (Really, I never 
>> understood that saying. The bait is for the fish! Why would I be eating it??)
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
> The term is 'bated breath' as in abated or hesitation or slower breathing due 
> to anxiety or anticipation or suspense.
> 
> Also a phrase used in The Merchant of Venice by that guy, what's his name.
> 
> Jim Ault
> Las Vegas
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Andrew Kluthe]

Agreed, dual-booting wouldn't even be necessary.  Took me about 30 minutes to
set snow leopard up on VirtualBox VM. I didn't install sound patches because
they were not necessary for what I do, but everything else works. And this
is on an AMD (previously it was only doable on intel). For testing purposes
(rare) and rodeo development, this seems to be the way to go until enough
cheddar frees itself up for a mini (second in line behind an iPad or other
tablet device).
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Sarah Reichelt]

The CSS we are using is webkit specific, but that just dictates some of the 
visual effects. Functionally, all the Rodeo stuff, including the editing, will 
work on any HTML5 compatible browser. It just might look a bit weird.

Cheers,
Sarah


Sent from my iPad

On 22/07/2010, at 8:10 PM, Peter Alcibiades  
wrote:

> 
> Sarah, I guess actually that you won't be limited to webkit based browsers,
> as long as they fully support HTML5, is that not right?  Its a question of
> supporting an open standard.   So the answer to the original question might
> be, right now you need a webkit based browser for editing and app creation,
> but in future, you'll be able to use any compliant browser, and one assumes
> that will include (maybe it does even now) Firefox.
> 
> Have you tried with Firefox?
> -- 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Mark Schonewille]

Hi,

I have just created an iPhone app using HTML5 and it works in FF just  
as it works in Safari. I tested it on Mac only, but I expect it to  
work in FF on Windows as well.


--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Download the Installer Maker plugin for Runtime Revolution at http://qurl.tk/ce

On 22 jul 2010, at 12:10, Peter Alcibiades wrote:



Sarah, I guess actually that you won't be limited to webkit based  
browsers,
as long as they fully support HTML5, is that not right?  Its a  
question of
supporting an open standard.   So the answer to the original  
question might
be, right now you need a webkit based browser for editing and app  
creation,
but in future, you'll be able to use any compliant browser, and one  
assumes

that will include (maybe it does even now) Firefox.

Have you tried with Firefox?



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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Peter Alcibiades]

Sarah, I guess actually that you won't be limited to webkit based browsers,
as long as they fully support HTML5, is that not right?  Its a question of
supporting an open standard.   So the answer to the original question might
be, right now you need a webkit based browser for editing and app creation,
but in future, you'll be able to use any compliant browser, and one assumes
that will include (maybe it does even now) Firefox.

Have you tried with Firefox?
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Peter Alcibiades]

"If you can afford to drop your own money on overpriced hardware, then I
suppose you aren't in any kind of place to judge what I have to do to
survive."

This has been part of the reason I have installed Linux for some people. 
One case in particular comes to mind, a thoroughly infected machine where
the shop charge of $100 to clean it up was in conflict with feeding the
family.   Its easy to underestimate these considerations if one is
comfortable.

I have never done it, have no intention of doing it, and don't live in the
US, but if it were genuinely a case of feeding the family, I would hackntosh
for my own use right away.  It seems that you get the upgrade version of
Leopard, which is heavily discounted but can be used for clean installs. 
Get compatible hardware, and it seems to be perfectly doable. Dual booting
seems to be possible, but more complicated.  

At that point you are installing a retail copy of software you have bought
on a machine you own, admittedly in breach of EULA, which is a civil matter. 
The legal situation on copyright as long as you do not sell on is not clear. 
There are protections for this sort of activity in the copyright law, see
section 117 of Title 17.

But it might be simpler and a better use of the time to just use Rodeo from
a webkit browser, even given the limitations, if that is the only objective!
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Andrew Kluthe]

If you are concerned with being a "professional coder", thats quite
different. I don't seek a Mac OS out for any kind of "experience" it might
give me. I do it to feed my family. Understand that beyond feeding my family
I have no aspirations to be a professional anything. If you can afford to
drop your own money on overpriced hardware, then I suppose you aren't in any
kind of place to judge what I have to do to survive.


On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Stephen Barncard-4 [via Runtime Revolution]

> wrote:

> Hackintosh -  No thanks. somehow that's just not the same experience. I'd
> rather have the real thing and everything working and updatable. Certainly
> not something a professional coder would ever do.
>
>
>
> On 21 July 2010 15:27, Andrew Kluthe <[hidden 
> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2298002&i=0>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > "PC only hardware can't virtualize Macs."
> >
> > Are there listserv rules about what you can post?
> >
> > Meet me in the alley behind this list.
> >
> > For strictly educational and informative purposes, of course.
> >
>
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco Ca. USA
>
> more about sqb  <http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar>
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Chipp Walters]

Hey Hugh,

One other thing about Rodeo (as I understand it). Just like some other HTML/
Javascript based authoring environments for the iPhone/iMac, it 'taps-in'
directly to the iPhone OS api, so you will be able to develop apps which
utilize specific features of an iPhone, like a compass, or accelerometer.

>From what I understand, Sarah and Jerry are really TARGETING these two
platforms-- but it's also a fact you can make it work on other web-kit
browsers, like Safari and Chrome, on the desktop. You just won't be able to
do any of the custom api access you can with iPad and iPhone. BTW, this is a
valid development and appStore strategy already approved by Saint Steve.

I personally think staying focussed, and vertical, is important to small
companies being successful. I, too, would like to see them have a PC IDE,
but understand the issues.

And, FWIW, I'm a huge non-fan of the rev plugin. Plugin wars died out many
years ago, and the only two which survived were Flash and Acrobat. Even
Quicktime didn't really survive as most of us who develop commercial website
and webapps  refuse to use QT directly in a webpage. I suppose in very
controlled circumstances revPlugin may work, but then so will a desktop
auto-updating app. My thinking is a company like RunRev is best staying
vertical and focussed, and revPlugin doensn't help this. Just my 2 cents.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 12:50 PM, FlexibleLearning <
ad...@flexiblelearning.com> wrote:

> Okay... I'll put up my hand and admit. I just don't get it. And it's
> *really* annoying me!



Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Peter Haworth]

Thanks Jerry.  Just so you know, I already purchased Rodeo for it's  
potential!


I guess your answer falls into the category mentioned in my original  
email of "it's early days yet" and that's fine.  I looked at the  
countdown to release link and I'l wait with "bated" breath for July  
27th when the data objects are scheduled for release, that's one of my  
major concerns right now although I'm guessing there won;t be any  
sqlite connectivity.


I agree with your philosophy of trying to keep things simpler and also  
agree that Revolution can be phenomenally difficult to comprehend,  
especially for new users, but sometimes complexity is the price you  
have to pay for power - a delicate balance!


Pete Haworth





Message: 14
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:03:25 -0500
From: Jerry Daniels 
Subject: Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment
To: How to use Revolution 
Message-ID: <2c8551a8-422f-4e2e-a491-de8e9552c...@me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hey, Pete!

Taking a look at our countdown to release list in this post may help  
some:


http://rodeoapps.com/limited-pre-release-offer

The a-ha will come in increments. The biggest one we are working on  
now is data. The ability to handle records--edit, delete, create,  
list, etc. it a big step toward app status. The wrapper around the  
app is not as important right now to us as having a quality delivery  
of data / content. But the wrappers are coming along on the target  
platforms.


I think it's pretty clear when you look at the schedule and our  
history, we're making progress and will continue to do so. We are  
discounting our prices heavily to encourage users to get their feet  
wet with the overall framework, syntax and workflow. We also use  
this to fund development. We are not using borrowed or venture  
capital money to do this.




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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[stephen barncard]

Hackintosh -  No thanks. somehow that's just not the same experience. I'd
rather have the real thing and everything working and updatable. Certainly
not something a professional coder would ever do.



On 21 July 2010 15:27, Andrew Kluthe  wrote:

>
> "PC only hardware can't virtualize Macs."
>
> Are there listserv rules about what you can post?
>
> Meet me in the alley behind this list.
>
> For strictly educational and informative purposes, of course.
>

Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jerry Daniels]

And just what does baited breath smell like?

Best,

Jerry Daniels

Join the Rodeo discussion:
http://rodeoapps.com/rodeo-discuss-among-yourselves

On Jul 21, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:

> At some point I know you will provide a list of what syntax is allowed, and 
> update it as time goes on. Waiting with baited breath! (Really, I never 
> understood that saying. The bait is for the fish! Why would I be eating it??)
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:
> 
>> At the moment, we have a very limited syntax available. It will expand
>> but we want to keep it as simple as possible, so every new addition
>> will be considered carefully. We do not plan to offer a complete Rev
>> to Rodeo translator, as the Rev language is too vast and too variable.
>> We are planning on extending the Transfer stack so that it creates
>> Rodeo actions for your handlers and populates them with commented
>> versions of your Rev scripts. This will just be an easier way to get
>> started and to remind yourself of your script, but you will still have
>> to re-write the scripts in Rodeo.
> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Sarah Reichelt]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> At some point I know you will provide a list of what syntax is allowed, and 
> update it as time goes on. Waiting with baited breath!

Yes, we are assembling the documentation right now. There is already a
language guide but it is not up-to-date, so I won't even bother to
point you there yet.

> (Really, I never understood that saying. The bait is for the fish! Why would 
> I be eating it??)

>From the OS X Dictionary:

USAGE The spelling : baited breath instead of bated breath is a common
mistake that, in addition to perpetuating a cliché, evokes a
distasteful image. Before using the expression bated breath, think of
the verb : abate, as in : the winds abated, not fish bait.


Cheers,
Sarah

Rodeo discussion:
http://rodeoapps.com/rodeo-discuss-among-yourselves
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jim Ault]

On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:31 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:

At some point I know you will provide a list of what syntax is  
allowed, and update it as time goes on. Waiting with baited breath!  
(Really, I never understood that saying. The bait is for the fish!  
Why would I be eating it??)


Bob


The term is 'bated breath' as in abated or hesitation or slower  
breathing due to anxiety or anticipation or suspense.


Also a phrase used in The Merchant of Venice by that guy, what's his  
name.


Jim Ault
Las Vegas



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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Bob Sneidar]

At some point I know you will provide a list of what syntax is allowed, and 
update it as time goes on. Waiting with baited breath! (Really, I never 
understood that saying. The bait is for the fish! Why would I be eating it??)

Bob


On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:

> At the moment, we have a very limited syntax available. It will expand
> but we want to keep it as simple as possible, so every new addition
> will be considered carefully. We do not plan to offer a complete Rev
> to Rodeo translator, as the Rev language is too vast and too variable.
> We are planning on extending the Transfer stack so that it creates
> Rodeo actions for your handlers and populates them with commented
> versions of your Rev scripts. This will just be an easier way to get
> started and to remind yourself of your script, but you will still have
> to re-write the scripts in Rodeo.

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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Bob Sneidar]

But you haven't told us how you really feel. ;-)

Bob


On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:59 AM, stephen barncard wrote:

> This is payback time - in the name of ultimate cross-platform compatibility
> and internet sanity, instead of corporate control and licensing.  Microsoft
> has called the shots for too many years, and now they have to follow. Word
> is that IE 8 will read html5, CSS4, and have complete support of javascript,
> all open source technologies they can't patent.
> 
> As for the users, they win big with this change. What is the big deal of
> downloading a new browser ? Is that really much different for most users
> than installing yet another fricking Flash update?
> change is gonna come... and really fast. I want to be a part of it.
> 
> I would love to hear futurist Robert
> Cailliau'stake on this
> topic today, if he hasn't already covered it already two years
> ago in Vegas at the Keynote.
> 
> sqb

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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Sarah Reichelt]

> You can then connect to those web pages with any webkit based browser from
> any OS.  So its not really mac-centric, and not even Rev centric, if I have
> understood it properly.

Correct - Rodeo is web centric, but we based it's scripting style on
Revolution scripting, so Rev people will find it easier to get
started. They will also have the benefit of the Rev-Rodeo Transfer
stack.


> They will shortly introduce the ability to run those pages on your own web
> server, again through a webkit based browser.  You should also be able to
> write web apps that run from your own device, again once they implement the
> ability to run from any web server.
>
> Correct me if wrong on this very last point?

You're right.


> The hope and belief is that this means that you can write apps for the
> iPhone and iPad.  Because you are targeting abilities built into the
> browser, and you do not need to go through Apple's app store to get them to
> the public.  Apple can no longer tell you and your buyers that swimsuit
> photos are politically incorrect this year.

Exactly. Steve Jobs has said on multiple occasions ever since the
original iPhone was released, that web apps based on HTML/CSS &
Javascript, are the way to put whatever apps you want on the
iPhone/iPad without having to go through the app store.


> Will it work, and is it interesting?  Yes on the last count.  Someone asks
> to what extent this allows you to port all the functionality of a Rev app to
> the web.  This is something I am not clear about, and it would be nice to
> know.  It is letting you compose apps within the limits of the webkit
> engine.  It is also letting you translate the gui part of a Rev app into
> standard web pages.  But it does not seem to be porting the whole
> application to a web site, not even a webkit one.  Its doing part of that,
> and delivering part of the functionality of the app. If you want the guts of
> the thing, you write the rest of it in the Rodeo editor.

Correct again - I think we need to hire Peter as our "Rodeo
Explanation Officer" :-)

At the moment, we have a very limited syntax available. It will expand
but we want to keep it as simple as possible, so every new addition
will be considered carefully. We do not plan to offer a complete Rev
to Rodeo translator, as the Rev language is too vast and too variable.
We are planning on extending the Transfer stack so that it creates
Rodeo actions for your handlers and populates them with commented
versions of your Rev scripts. This will just be an easier way to get
started and to remind yourself of your script, but you will still have
to re-write the scripts in Rodeo.


> Is that pretty much right?

Yes, very good Peter. Thanks for taking the trouble to lay all that
out, especially the interesting info about the originals of WebKit.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Andrew Kluthe]

"PC only hardware can't virtualize Macs."

Are there listserv rules about what you can post?

Meet me in the alley behind this list.

For strictly educational and informative purposes, of course.
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jerry Daniels]

Hey, Pete!

Taking a look at our countdown to release list in this post may help some:

http://rodeoapps.com/limited-pre-release-offer

The a-ha will come in increments. The biggest one we are working on now is 
data. The ability to handle records--edit, delete, create, list, etc. it a big 
step toward app status. The wrapper around the app is not as important right 
now to us as having a quality delivery of data / content. But the wrappers are 
coming along on the target platforms.

I think it's pretty clear when you look at the schedule and our history, we're 
making progress and will continue to do so. We are discounting our prices 
heavily to encourage users to get their feet wet with the overall framework, 
syntax and workflow. We also use this to fund development. We are not using 
borrowed or venture capital money to do this.

On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

> I downloaded Rodeo a couple of days ago and have spent a little time using 
> Transfer and playing around with it.
> 
> I guess I'm struggling with the definition of what an "app" is.  To me, an 
> app is a fully functional program that provides an interface for the user to 
> interact with, logic to manipulate user input, the ability to store and 
> retrieve data, etc but all I see in Rodeo is a way to lay out web pages and 
> perform a few basic actions, certainly no data retrieval/storage 
> functionality. Do I have to learn another language to implement the logic and 
> data storage behind the web pages?

No other language required, but look at the schedule I linked above and you'll 
see when data comes into play as well as other items of interest.

> I hope I'm missing something or that it's early days yet and there's a lot 
> more to come in Rodeo because right now it doesn't come close to providing me 
> with the ability to implement an "app" by my definition and I really want to  
> experience that "aha" moment!
> 
> Pete Haworth
> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Peter Haworth]

I downloaded Rodeo a couple of days ago and have spent a little time  
using Transfer and playing around with it.


I guess I'm struggling with the definition of what an "app" is.  To  
me, an app is a fully functional program that provides an interface  
for the user to interact with, logic to manipulate user input, the  
ability to store and retrieve data, etc but all I see in Rodeo is a  
way to lay out web pages and perform a few basic actions, certainly no  
data retrieval/storage functionality. Do I have to learn another  
language to implement the logic and data storage behind the web pages?


I hope I'm missing something or that it's early days yet and there's a  
lot more to come in Rodeo because right now it doesn't come close to  
providing me with the ability to implement an "app" by my definition  
and I really want to  experience that "aha" moment!


Pete Haworth

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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Richard K. Herz]

Jerry, Are there sample Rodeo apps posted on the web as pages that can 
be viewed with a webkit browser? Links? Thanks.

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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Peter Alcibiades]

Webkit came about like this.  KDE, who make a Linux desktop environment
complete with office apps etc, developed a rendering engine as the basis for
their browser, called Konqueror.  It was open source..  Apple then took this
rendering engine and made it the basis of Safari.  There was tooing and
froing about whether Apple was passing its enhancements back, this was
eventually more or less resolved, and Webkit is now both the basis for
Safari and for open source browsers.  Which would include Midori, Chrome,
Konqueror, and even the Gnome browser, Galeon.  

Now, what can you do as a Windows user?  if I understand it properly, you
can write Rodeo pages in Windows as long as you use a webkit based browser
to connect to the online authoring tool.  This does not include Explorer or
Firefox, but there is no shortage.  This would apply to Linux too.

You cannot use the Mac based editor which Sarah has written, unless you
either buy yourself a Mac or make yourself a hackintosh.  Which is pretty
easy to do, not that I have any interest in doing it other than the
intellectual challenge maybe, but there are too many of those already.  But
you can still write Rodeo apps.

You can then connect to those web pages with any webkit based browser from
any OS.  So its not really mac-centric, and not even Rev centric, if I have
understood it properly.

They will shortly introduce the ability to run those pages on your own web
server, again through a webkit based browser.  You should also be able to
write web apps that run from your own device, again once they implement the
ability to run from any web server.  

Correct me if wrong on this very last point?

The hope and belief is that this means that you can write apps for the
iPhone and iPad.  Because you are targeting abilities built into the
browser, and you do not need to go through Apple's app store to get them to
the public.  Apple can no longer tell you and your buyers that swimsuit
photos are politically incorrect this year.

Will it work, and is it interesting?  Yes on the last count.  Someone asks
to what extent this allows you to port all the functionality of a Rev app to
the web.  This is something I am not clear about, and it would be nice to
know.  It is letting you compose apps within the limits of the webkit
engine.  It is also letting you translate the gui part of a Rev app into
standard web pages.  But it does not seem to be porting the whole
application to a web site, not even a webkit one.  Its doing part of that,
and delivering part of the functionality of the app. If you want the guts of
the thing, you write the rest of it in the Rodeo editor.

Is that pretty much right?
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jerry Daniels]

Jim,

We're finding out ourselves! We'll try and keep everyone posted.

Best,

Jerry Daniels

Get Rodeo beta and save $100:
http://rodeoapps.com/limited-pre-release-offer

On Jul 21, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Jim Sims wrote:

> 
> I'm curious about how much of what Rev standalones can do can be transferred 
> to a web app?
> 
> Any guidelines/rules/suggestions on that?
> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jerry Daniels]

Hey, Wayne!

I think web apps are more for custom development clients who don't want their 
stuff in the App store. And many business do NOT want classic app store apps 
but want their employees to use company web apps...especially those centered 
around inventory, sales, etc.

As you probably know, you can add a web page to iPad's home page and make it 
act like an app by just clicking the add symbol next to the URL field in iPad's 
Safari browser and choosing Home.

In any case, we are providing for Rodeo iOS classic (non-web) apps as well. 
Since we use Objective-C, Javascript, HTML5, no foreign APIs, etc. these type 
of apps would be eligible--author's content notwithstanding.

Best,

Jerry Daniels

Get Rodeo beta and save $100:
http://rodeoapps.com/limited-pre-release-offer
On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:03 PM, wayne durden wrote:

> I would like to chime in with a question as well.  I am not sure I really am
> seeing what might be happening in the marketplace.  I understand the concept
> of creating a web app for hire for a third party that wants a "presence" on
> iPads, where the app might be free for exposure, etc.   But are "web apps"
> being successfully sold directly by the developers to end consumers?  In
> other words, are there many examples of selling "web apps" versus "first
> class full x-code apps" that are selling for .99 to 4.99?  The part I
> haven't quite grasped is that the concept of web apps seem like partitioning
> off little web pages into a pseudo-standalone, and I am wondering if
> customers are accepting this in decent numbers as something they are willing
> to pay for?
> 
> For instance, can a javascript game that runs in Safari be packaged up as a
> web app with an icon and sold through iTunes for .99 let's say?
> 
> I will be "googling" to find examples after a bit, but if anyone has some
> pointers to these I would appreciate it.  I think this might be a situation
> where once again, the whole game may have changed while I was busy not
> noticing.  And if it is as easy as packaging a javascript game up with an
> icon and the webkit browser call, if there isn't a deluge already, there
> probably will be...
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Jim Sims  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm curious about how much of what Rev standalones can do can be
>> transferred to a web app?
>> 
>> Any guidelines/rules/suggestions on that?
>> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[wayne durden]

I would like to chime in with a question as well.  I am not sure I really am
seeing what might be happening in the marketplace.  I understand the concept
of creating a web app for hire for a third party that wants a "presence" on
iPads, where the app might be free for exposure, etc.   But are "web apps"
being successfully sold directly by the developers to end consumers?  In
other words, are there many examples of selling "web apps" versus "first
class full x-code apps" that are selling for .99 to 4.99?  The part I
haven't quite grasped is that the concept of web apps seem like partitioning
off little web pages into a pseudo-standalone, and I am wondering if
customers are accepting this in decent numbers as something they are willing
to pay for?

For instance, can a javascript game that runs in Safari be packaged up as a
web app with an icon and sold through iTunes for .99 let's say?

I will be "googling" to find examples after a bit, but if anyone has some
pointers to these I would appreciate it.  I think this might be a situation
where once again, the whole game may have changed while I was busy not
noticing.  And if it is as easy as packaging a javascript game up with an
icon and the webkit browser call, if there isn't a deluge already, there
probably will be...

Wayne

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Jim Sims  wrote:

>
> I'm curious about how much of what Rev standalones can do can be
> transferred to a web app?
>
> Any guidelines/rules/suggestions on that?
>
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jim Sims]

I'm curious about how much of what Rev standalones can do can be transferred to 
a web app?

Any guidelines/rules/suggestions on that?

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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[stephen barncard]

And I see Jerry said it all much more eloquently than I - but on the same
points.

sqb

On 21 July 2010 11:46, Jerry Daniels  wrote:

> Hugh,
>
> You're not being thick. Rodeo is not for everyone on earth and not for
> everyone on the list. Obviously. However, it is very important to a HUGE
> number of us. You could easily be one of those people for whom it satisfies
> no need. The AHA is in the eye (or heart) of the beholder. Not everyone here
> or there are going to have it.
>
> -
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[stephen barncard]

Flex,
(May I call you Flex?)
I think a lot of the philosophy and business plan for D&M is that sooner or
later, the entire web will finally embrace the open Web Standards that are
being set now with HTML5, CSS4 and javascript, and Flash sites will have to
provide a HTML "alternative", as cnn, Huff Post, You Tube and Vimeo
currently do.  Flash could be dead in months,IHMO.  THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

As for 'just install the RevWeb plugin' - you've seen the pain and hassle
this causes with the incompatibility with different browsers - I can imagine
the insanity the Rev staff went through to create and debug the thing - and
plugins are so proprietary and 'yesterday' that it's not really an
alternative for the beauty of a 'pure' engine and the easier implementation
of just using what's always available in the browser. Not to mention much
easier acceptance of one's application in the corporate IT world.

There is a great opportunity for us and others to rebuild web apps and sites
with the new technology as our clients  'get it'.  "I want my online app and
sites to run on iPhone and iPad!" - Apple is driving the standards, and
unlike Microsoft's attempts they don't cost more for patented software and a
rigged OS for the others to follow these standards.

The notion that users aren't going to want to install a new browser is
flawed. Users ( the ones we really want to target) are more sophisticated
today than in earlier years. If they want to see/use/play the content, they
will do whatever it takes.

Depending on your ROI, the cost of a Mac factored in could be a trivial
thing, like buying a new phone or iPad.  If your margins are so small that a
new computer will put you out of sorts, then yes, you don't need this.
Nobody guaranteed a democratic spread of platform with the tools - Jerry has
only so many resources and a limited customer base and he's focusing, big
time on the one he knows best and can save time and hassle by using.

The 3.5 million iPads and iPhones sold just this quarter tell the tale.

The current user base for this product (as researched by Jerry) was
obviously Mac-Centric, as most of these developers use MacBooks, MacBook
Pros and Mac Pros for their development for all platforms ( the Intel Mac
has been dubbed 'better hardware than a PC' when used with boot camp ) and
the virtualizers do a pretty good job for testing most apps on other
platforms.   PC only hardware can't virtualize Macs.   Perhaps it's time to
consider a Mini - then you can run everything. How do you test your
Macintosh apps right now?

I find this cry for a Windows version amusing (what about US?), as Mac users
have been enduring for over 25 years the lack of a 'mac version' of various
PC-centric products and the insulting ignorance of companies like Linksys
that wouldn't display the fact their products would work perfectly on the
Mac anyway, and have for years.

This is payback time - in the name of ultimate cross-platform compatibility
and internet sanity, instead of corporate control and licensing.  Microsoft
has called the shots for too many years, and now they have to follow. Word
is that IE 8 will read html5, CSS4, and have complete support of javascript,
all open source technologies they can't patent.

As for the users, they win big with this change. What is the big deal of
downloading a new browser ? Is that really much different for most users
than installing yet another fricking Flash update?
change is gonna come... and really fast. I want to be a part of it.

I would love to hear futurist Robert
Cailliau'stake on this
topic today, if he hasn't already covered it already two years
ago in Vegas at the Keynote.

sqb

On 21 July 2010 10:50, FlexibleLearning  wrote:
>
> Okay... I'll put up my hand and admit. I just don't get it. And it's
> *really* annoying me!
>
> 1. 'Rodeo uses WebKit'. This assumes I know what a 'webKit' is. Assuming
> it's a framework for Browsers (is it? Read the webkit page and it looks
like
> it is), it immediately alientates any non-webkit Browser such as the
> ubiquitous Internet Explorer (whatever one may think about it).
>
> 2. 'Rodeo creates web pages, not Revolution stacks' and 'tools built for
use
> in stacks will not work in Rodeo'. Okay. So why not just write html for
web
> pages and use the revPlugin to deliver stacks?
>
> 3. Development with Rodeo requires a Mac with an Internet connection. My
> connection is on my Windows box.
> Bozo here, struggling for that 'Aha' moment. Not a big deal, but it leaves
> me out of the loop (assuming I ever understand what being in this loop
> actually means, of course).
>
> Any help towards that satori moment would be most gratefully received. And
> if I am being REALLY thick, you can avoid embarassing me by writing
> off-list!
>
> /H
>
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[Jerry Daniels]

Hugh,

You're not being thick. Rodeo is not for everyone on earth and not for everyone 
on the list. Obviously. However, it is very important to a HUGE number of us. 
You could easily be one of those people for whom it satisfies no need. The AHA 
is in the eye (or heart) of the beholder. Not everyone here or there are going 
to have it.

Addressing some specifics you mentioned:

- Webkit is an engine for many web browsers, especially the mobile ones. I 
think FireFox and IE will use webkit eventually. Maybe sooner than we think. In 
any case, it's simple to develop and app and tell your customers to get a 
webkit browser (Chrome or Safari on any platform are excellent).

- Many apps use webkit to render their screens...not just web browsers. That's 
what iTunes was and is. There are many more out there doing the same thing. 
Their value in the marketplace is much more than a web page in a browser.

- The above are technical and business reasons for choosing webkit as our prime 
target for Rodeo's deliverables.

- There are many, many people who will simply not download a web plugin. Ever. 
Steve Jobs (rightly or wrongly) has placed nails in the coffins of more plugins 
than just Flash.

- Sarah, MJ and i think the desktop wars are fading as an issue as more 
developers on all platforms simply use webkit in a browser or a shell app to do 
their bidding. This allows them to compete with cheaper labor markets. There 
is, however a steep learning curve for many to do this. Rodeo definitions are 
an antidote to this problem.

- We chose an Xcode Desktop Mac app as our shell app to house our editor and as 
a shell app to house other folks' web pages who develop in Rodeo because of its 
superior webviews. 

- The next step for Rodeo is to make a shell app for iOS devices (in Xcode) 
that does the same as our Mac desktop shell app. iPad is a magic word for 
getting work, good prices paid for work, and availability of work. LIke it or 
not, iPad sales are astounding. HUGE. And the app model, the web app model have 
captured the imagination of people who pay people like us developers.

There are some deep issues that the emergence of Rodeo touches. They certainly 
not purely technical or economic, or even totally logical. Many developers have 
had a visceral reaction to Rodeo because it gets to issues of lifestyle. 

For many of us, delivering web apps to webkit browsers will get us back in the 
game. Let us create product quickly that our customers can afford...that can't 
be outsourced to a cheaper labor pool. That once again captures the imagination 
of our clients and customers. 

For all of the above reasons, Rodeo (rightly or wrongly) represents HOPE. Who 
cares if the Rodeo editor runs on a Mac? We're talking about HOPE, lifestyle, 
family, passion all returning to where they belong in the breasts of struggling 
developers in their 50's and in debt.

The world many of us live in has changed profoundly in a very short period of 
time. Economic collapse, outsourced jobs, and apps. Not executables, apps. And 
app stores. And hybrid-designed mobile devices with 4 dollar apps.

Maybe that helps. Maybe not. Good starter dough, perhaps.

Best,

Jerry Daniels

Get Rodeo beta and save $100:
http://rodeoapps.com/limited-pre-release-offer

On Jul 21, 2010, at 12:50 PM, FlexibleLearning wrote:

> Okay... I'll put up my hand and admit. I just don't get it. And it's
> *really* annoying me!
> 
> 1. 'Rodeo uses WebKit'. This assumes I know what a 'webKit' is. Assuming
> it's a framework for Browsers (is it? Read the webkit page and it looks like
> it is), it immediately alientates any non-webkit Browser such as the
> ubiquitous Internet Explorer (whatever one may think about it).
> 
> 2. 'Rodeo creates web pages, not Revolution stacks' and 'tools built for use
> in stacks will not work in Rodeo'. Okay. So why not just write html for web
> pages and use the revPlugin to deliver stacks?
> 
> 3. Development with Rodeo requires a Mac with an Internet connection. My
> connection is on my Windows box.
> Bozo here, struggling for that 'Aha' moment. Not a big deal, but it leaves
> me out of the loop (assuming I ever understand what being in this loop
> actually means, of course).
> 
> Any help towards that satori moment would be most gratefully received. And
> if I am being REALLY thick, you can avoid embarassing me by writing
> off-list!
> 
> /H
> 
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Re: [OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[David C.]

> Okay... I'll put up my hand and admit. I just don't get it. And it's
> *really* annoying me!

...I was with ya up until yesterday.

>
> 2. 'Rodeo creates web pages, not Revolution stacks' and 'tools built for use
> in stacks will not work in Rodeo'. Okay. So why not just write html for web
> pages and use the revPlugin to deliver stacks?

A. Without Rodeo, no chance to leverage Rev "styled" language to build
native iPad apps.

B. That also leaves browser based iPad and iPhone (eventually) apps
out of the equation unless you want to build everything from scratch
using HTML5/CSS3/Javascript. (The plugin won't ever work on those
platforms according to Mr. Jobs)

C. Not everyone wants or is allowed to install the plugin and it's
currently not available for all platforms yet anyway. (missing Linux)

> 3. Development with Rodeo requires a Mac with an Internet connection. My
> connection is on my Windows box.

You can use either the Safari or Chrome browser in Windows to work in
Rodeo... clarified and tested yesterday :)

The "Transfer" stack makes it easy to convert pre-built Rev stacks
directly into the Rodeo language instead of trying to build the user
interface manually as mentioned above.

Best regards,
David C.
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[OT-Rodeo] Still waiting for the aha moment

[FlexibleLearning]

Okay... I'll put up my hand and admit. I just don't get it. And it's
*really* annoying me!

1. 'Rodeo uses WebKit'. This assumes I know what a 'webKit' is. Assuming
it's a framework for Browsers (is it? Read the webkit page and it looks like
it is), it immediately alientates any non-webkit Browser such as the
ubiquitous Internet Explorer (whatever one may think about it).

2. 'Rodeo creates web pages, not Revolution stacks' and 'tools built for use
in stacks will not work in Rodeo'. Okay. So why not just write html for web
pages and use the revPlugin to deliver stacks?

3. Development with Rodeo requires a Mac with an Internet connection. My
connection is on my Windows box.
Bozo here, struggling for that 'Aha' moment. Not a big deal, but it leaves
me out of the loop (assuming I ever understand what being in this loop
actually means, of course).

Any help towards that satori moment would be most gratefully received. And
if I am being REALLY thick, you can avoid embarassing me by writing
off-list!

/H

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