Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Norman Winn]

Hello,

I've just joined your list. I was one of those people hoping for great 
things from Filemaker 7. We got them - but it got slower. My main work 
is on a solution that represents data graphically. Already too slow so 
I am looking for alternatives.

Tried Servoy a bit. Looks promising but still stuck with runtime 
payments.
Good points: mimics FM, sets up an SQL db and the connection, a 
database person starts higher up the learning curve. I like the look of 
Javascript. Got a full response from support team on my problems.
Bad points: Java problems under OS X. Still stuck with runtime 
payments. Didn't get drawn into coding.

Downloaded RR and worked through the tutorial.
Good points: Interface worked well. Free version lets me play as long 
as I like.
Not so good (for me): I like concise languages. If they are verbose 
then they should need no, or little, commenting. The examples have so  
many comments I can't follow the logic. I have already experienced 
Applescript and find that its 'Englishness' soon descends into the 
arcane and opaque.

Downloaded RealBasic, worked through the tutorial.
Good points: Interface prettier. Found myself drawn into coding and 
experimenting almost immediately (used to love Delphi and would be 
there now if it ran on OS X). Lot's of database functions.
Not so good: Still Carbon. Can't find aid for setting up SQL 
connections. Only get 10 days to play before committing.

So, why am I here? First, a hunch. It seems like RR has something going 
for it. Second, I browsed the archives of this list and liked what I 
saw.

If you could take the time to consider my questions it might have more 
influence than on just me. A lot of FM developers are hovering.

Here are some questions:

1. The RR v RB comparison article is way out of date but suggests RB 
may be the best choice for heavy db work. Is this so?

2. I don't see much written on building front-ends to SQL in RR. Are 
they out there? Are there any tutorials on this? Is there a connection 
tutorial?

3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex 
relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?

4. Icing on the cake? Has anyone already handled converting and 
documented it?

Thank you for attention and for a lively, open forum,

Norman Winn

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[xbury . cs]

Norman,


>1. The RR v RB comparison article is way out of date but suggests RB
>may be the best choice for heavy db work. Is this so?

I've done some really heavy db work with HC, FMP, php sql. RR is up to
par... Naturally, it's not FMP but given the events that FMP doesn't have
it should be far more potent a solution... Web serving might be a bit
more involved but not necessary as complicated as FMP. No java 
req.

>2. I don't see much written on building front-ends to SQL in RR. Are
>they out there? Are there any tutorials on this? Is there a connection
>tutorial?

I think making a stack browser should be pretty easy. I haven't tried but
the connection is self explanatory. Others have more experience than me
here.

>3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex
>relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?

Validation is a piece of cake in RR. plug-ins are somewhat obscure and
can or not work - RR technical problem. Relationships are usually coded
but making a GUI for it should be easy. RR's difference with FMP is that
the data model is built directly in the interface compared to a separate 
GUI as in FM but nothing is stopping you from adopting the same model 
(eg same data, different views)... 

>4. Icing on the cake? Has anyone already handled converting and
>documented it?

I've converted parts of FMP databases to RR on numerous occasions
but never documented it. A basic export, import should do...

hope it helps.

On 06.04.2004 10:11:36 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I've just joined your list. I was one of those people hoping for great
>things from Filemaker 7. We got them - but it got slower. My main work
>is on a solution that represents data graphically. Already too slow so
>I am looking for alternatives.
>
>Tried Servoy a bit. Looks promising but still stuck with runtime
>payments.
>Good points: mimics FM, sets up an SQL db and the connection, a
>database person starts higher up the learning curve. I like the look of
>Javascript. Got a full response from support team on my problems.
>Bad points: Java problems under OS X. Still stuck with runtime
>payments. Didn't get drawn into coding.
>
>Downloaded RR and worked through the tutorial.
>Good points: Interface worked well. Free version lets me play as long
>as I like.
>Not so good (for me): I like concise languages. If they are verbose
>then they should need no, or little, commenting. The examples have so
>many comments I can't follow the logic. I have already experienced
>Applescript and find that its 'Englishness' soon descends into the
>arcane and opaque.
>
>Downloaded RealBasic, worked through the tutorial.
>Good points: Interface prettier. Found myself drawn into coding and
>experimenting almost immediately (used to love Delphi and would be
>there now if it ran on OS X). Lot's of database functions.
>Not so good: Still Carbon. Can't find aid for setting up SQL
>connections. Only get 10 days to play before committing.
>
>
>So, why am I here? First, a hunch. It seems like RR has something going
>for it. Second, I browsed the archives of this list and liked what I
>saw.
>
>If you could take the time to consider my questions it might have more
>influence than on just me. A lot of FM developers are hovering.
>
>Here are some questions:
>
>1. The RR v RB comparison article is way out of date but suggests RB
>may be the best choice for heavy db work. Is this so?
>
>2. I don't see much written on building front-ends to SQL in RR. Are
>they out there? Are there any tutorials on this? Is there a connection
>tutorial?
>
>3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex
>relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?
>
>4. Icing on the cake? Has anyone already handled converting and
>documented it?
>
>
>Thank you for attention and for a lively, open forum,
>
>Norman Winn
>
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Richard Gaskin]

Norman Winn wrote:
Downloaded RR and worked through the tutorial.
...I like concise languages. If they are verbose then 
they should need no, or little, commenting. The examples have so  many 
comments I can't follow the logic.
That's good feedback, thank you.  The original version was more sparsely 
commented, but some considered it too sparse.

Seems my last post on personality types and tutorials was more timely 
than I'd anticipated; it's hard to craft a tutorial for all personality 
types.

A note on verbosity: while Transcript and other xTalks are sometimes 
referred to as "verbose", when comparing the number of tokens needed for 
a given task xTalks often compare favorably, sometimes by an order of 
magnitude or more.

How many lines to create an alias file in BASIC? In Transcript it's one:

  create alias "hd/folder/myalias" to file "hd/folder/myfile"

Same with reading a file:

  put url ("file:hd/folder/myfile") into tMyVar

And download and running a stack via HTTP:

  go stack url "http://www.fourthworld.com/mystack.rev";

And many more.

I don't do enough work with MySQL yet to help with your first three 
questions, but on this one I might have something for you:

...
4. Icing on the cake? Has anyone already handled converting and 
documented it?
Better:  there's a popular tool for porting from FMP to MySQL called FM 
Migrator:


Better still: it was made with Revolution. :)

For an example of interfacing Rev with MySQL over the Internet, see Ken 
Ray's excellent Revzilla, a Rev-based front-end to BugZilla.  You can 
grab it at: 



Thank you for attention and for a lively, open forum,
Welcome to the crew.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Richard Gaskin]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

plug-ins are somewhat obscure and can or not work - RR technical problem.
Which plugins are giving you trouble?

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[xbury . cs]

Richard,

Rather the plug-in architecture is giving me trouble...
The reveditscript and revselectedobjectchange to be specific...

Creating a stack with those messages and putting them into the 
plug-ins folder, setting up the messages if not detected by the PI 
settings
works OK. 

But having them work is a mistery.
The revExample works fine you might say...
So since I couldn't make my stacks work, I ported them to a revexample 
copy.
- wouldn't work.

Trying to replace the revexample scripts with mine had limited success but
RR started crashing non-stop...

I've asked on numerous occasions with no success. Entered bug reports and
still am waiting with no solution in sight (see bug 34 which was commented 
yesterday
by Geoff as not-important... 

Otherwise search for bugs with "plug" in their title...
ANY solution is highly anticipated as I have a 3 plug-ins that are really
cool which will help you in particular avoid the dreaded "section" menu in 
the
revproperty palette... A second tool is to replace the script editor which 
keeps
getting on my nerves with it's many faults which I've resolved in my own 
editor,
and last but not least, I have a FruityToolbar with all the options 
missing in the
RevMenuBar which I would like to release...

And I got more coming... 

cheers
-=-
Xavier Bury
Clearstream Services
TNS NT LAN Server
ext 36465
Voice: +352 4656 43 6465
Fax: +352 4656 493 6465




Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06.04.2004 10:44
Please respond to How to use Revolution

 
To: How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    cc: 
    Subject:Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> plug-ins are somewhat obscure and can or not work - RR technical 
problem.

Which plugins are giving you trouble?

-- 
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  Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Norman!

First of all, welcome to our User Group. I hope you find the answers you 
are looking for.

I run a company which makes enterprise web apps for Fortune 1000 
companies. We pretty much use RR exclusively for our client-side web app 
development, be it Microsoft or Linux.

You might want to check out an article on our Altuit Revolution website 
about one of our products: Hemingway. Be sure and read the part at the 
bottom about multi-tier.

http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRevCaseStudies/Hemingway.htm

Revolution (called RunRev, Rev or RR) is actually a combination of two 
products: the Rev IDE and the MetaCard engine. Of course, the company 
Runtime Revolution owns both of these, but looking at it this way may 
help you understand it more.

The Rev IDE is an evolving product. Currently, it's at version 2.2. The 
engine development is also evolving as well. It was created over 10 
years ago by Scott Raney, who recently sold it to the RR folks. Raney is 
still involved in programming it.

Generally, one may find a few idiosyncrasies in the IDE. No deal killers 
at all, but a few annoying bugs here and there. Typically, the engine is 
found to be most robust with fewer bugs and a good support team. Many of 
us professional developers code our own plugins for Rev which do various 
things. A quick post to this list usually gets answers from a knowing 
individual regarding whether something is a bug or not...also there is 
an online bug tracking system at RunRev. For the hardcore, there's also 
the Open Source MetaCard IDE which also works with the engine. It's 
pretty sparse and doesn't have the bells and whistles the Rev IDE does, 
but it also is a more robust IDE as well.

Each programmer has his/her own style. Some chose to use the integral 
database features of RR (the cards, fields, etc..as in the old HyperCard 
product). Others choose to hook up directly to MySQL or other ODBC DB 
via built in connectors. I believe there's even a SQLlite connector 
being written. Then there are those (like myself) who prefer a 
multi-tier approach. All approaches are valid and it's amazing what 
people can do. In fact, one individual here (Rob Cozens) has even built 
a 'SQL-like' DB inside of Rev. It's free -- like many resources are in 
this community.

Frankly, I haven't come across anything I can't do with this program. I 
built a pretty cool button generator you can download if you like at 
www.buttongadget.com. It's all coded in native transcript, so you can 
get an idea of some of the possibilities of the product.

Good luck and hope to see you around :-)

best,

Chipp Walters, Aluit,inc

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Richard Gaskin]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rather the plug-in architecture is giving me trouble...
The reveditscript and revselectedobjectchange to be specific...
...
Trying to replace the revexample scripts with mine had limited success but
RR started crashing non-stop...
Hard crashes are extremely rare in my experience, so it's hard to guess 
what could be happening there without seeing the code causing the trouble.

I've asked on numerous occasions with no success. Entered bug reports and
still am waiting with no solution in sight (see bug 34 which was commented 
yesterday by Geoff as not-important... 
My guess is that it's been prioritized low because the number of 
affected users would be two, you and the fella who reported the bug. ;)

Most folks are either using messages directly (more on that below) or 
are so busy shipping applications that they don't have time to write 
their own script editor.


ANY solution is highly anticipated...
The answer can be found on Peter Gabriel's first solo album:

  "When things get so big, I don't trust them at all.
   You want some control, you gotta keep it small.
   D.I.Y."
The revEditScript message is not built into the engine.  Where does it 
come from?  Find where the IDE gets its messages and you have the key to 
replacing IDE components

There are two aproaches to catching messages in plugins, which I'll call 
the engine method and the Rev method.

The engine method uses the messages coming from the engine itself. In 
this case the message you're looking for is "editScript".  You can 
insert a frontScript that traps that message to trigger any behavior you 
want, such as cloning a custom script editor window, even before the 
target gets it.  You can trap any native message in a frontScript, as my 
Umbrellaman utility does for logging events (in RevNet).

The Rev method seems to be an effort to save you the step of inserting 
your own frontScript by providing a dispatcher.  This dispatcher traps 
the engine's messages and does an explicit "send" to all objects 
subscribed for them, such as plugins set up to receive them.

While I appreciate the effort that went into a point-and-click method 
for setting that up, I tend to prefer working as close to the engine as 
possible, using native engine messages as opposed to an extra layer that 
mirrors the native messages.  I don't mind writing a couple extra lines 
of code, and I think frontScripts are powerful enough to be well worth 
taking the time to learn to use them effectively.

In your plugin's preOpenStack or libraryStack handler you just include:

   insert script of btn "MyPluginsFrontScript" into front

In a button in your plugin containing the frontScript, you write:

  on editScript
  clone stack "MyScriptEditor"
  --- load script stuff into the cloned stack here
  end editScript
Whenever you encounter a messsage prefixed with "rev" that isn't giving 
you what you want, just look past it for the engine message that 
triggers it and you're on your way to total control over your environment.

For more on working with frontScripts, backScripts, and libraries see:
.
--
 Richard Gaskin
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Bruce Robertson]

>> 3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex
>> relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?
> 
> Can't help on that for I do not understand what you're meaning... =/

Those are all very basic database terms. The fact that they are unfamiliar
and do not appear much in Rev database discussions suggests that the state
of affairs in Rev database management is not very robust. 

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Pierre Sahores]

Hello Norman !

Take all the responses you got there together and just gohead ! In 
about "n-tier" apps, on both the client and server sides, Rev can feet 
all what we can need in about CGI, critical-state Web applications 
servers, ERP or Media streaming solutions. At this point, my below 
proposal is probably off-topic but, else, don't hesite to ask for more 
if you want to serve datas over the internet in setting up an 
Apache+Revolution+PostgreSQL server-sided solution.

Be welcome and have fun :)

Best, Pierre

Le 6 avr. 04, à 10:57, Chipp Walters a écrit :

--snip--
Each programmer has his/her own style. Some chose to use the integral 
database features of RR (the cards, fields, etc..as in the old 
HyperCard product). Others choose to hook up directly to MySQL or 
other ODBC DB via built in connectors. I believe there's even a 
SQLlite connector being written. Then there are those (like myself) 
who prefer a multi-tier approach. All approaches are valid and it's 
amazing what people can do. In fact, one individual here (Rob Cozens) 
has even built a 'SQL-like' DB inside of Rev. It's free -- like many 
resources are in this community.

Frankly, I haven't come across anything I can't do with this program. 
I built a pretty cool button generator you can download if you like at 
www.buttongadget.com. It's all coded in native transcript, so you can 
get an idea of some of the possibilities of the product.

Good luck and hope to see you around :-)

best,

Chipp Walters, Aluit,inc

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Mark Brownell]

On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 10:12  AM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex
relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?
Can't help on that for I do not understand what you're meaning... =/
Those are all very basic database terms. The fact that they are 
unfamiliar
and do not appear much in Rev database discussions suggests that the 
state
of affairs in Rev database management is not very robust.
Hi,

There are basic functions but there are much more powerful ways to work 
with RR as the front end with powerful databases as the back end. I 
prefer using SQL calls directly to the Valentina database using my own 
custom cursor calls. This requires a familiarity with Valentina. I 
create my own validation systems for the needs of the data being 
processed and the user. If I wanted to use Filemaker on the internet I 
would probably use Lasso or Filemaker's own smaller markup language. I 
use Valentina for speed, XML handling, and for the freedom to customize 
a standalone application. I started using Valentina with Director; it's 
a dream with RR compared to that. RR is the best I could find for the 
front end and Valentina is the best for the back end for my needs.

just my2cents...

Mark

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Brian Yennie]

Those are all very basic database terms. The fact that they are 
unfamiliar
and do not appear much in Rev database discussions suggests that the 
state
of affairs in Rev database management is not very robust.
Bruce,

There are scores of tools for managing your database schema and 
relationships in various database back-ends (MySQL, Postgres, Oracle, 
ODBC, Valentina...). But they aren't a part of the Rev environment- 
that's often the difference between using a multi-tiered database 
independent tool and one like FileMaker or Access who's entire purpose 
is to build database apps.

Do have a feeling of what backend you are going to use? If so, maybe we 
could point you to the appropriate tools. There's everything from free 
browser based tools to extra-expensive "professional" suites with UML 
and SQL generators, etc.

As for data validation, it may not be built-in to special database 
controls, but it's pretty easy to script:

For example (off the top of my head):

## in your stack script
function validateNumber tValue, tMin, tMax
   if (tValue is a number) AND (tValue >= tMin) AND (tValue <= tMax) 
then return TRUE
   return FALSE
end validateNumber

## in your field script
on closeField
  if not validateNumber(the text of me, 1, 100) then
select char 1 to -1 of me
answer error "Please enter a number between 1 and 100"
  else
pass closeField
  end if
end closeField
HTH!
Brian
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Sarah Reichelt]

On 6 Apr 2004, at 6:12 pm, Norman Winn wrote:

2. I don't see much written on building front-ends to SQL in RR. Are 
they out there? Are there any tutorials on this? Is there a connection 
tutorial?

Hi Norman,

At my web site , you can download the stack I 
created while teaching myself how to use MySQL with Revolution: 
MySQLtests.rev.gz

Although it doesn't use all the latest database commands, it does show 
you how to open a connection, do queries, add, edit or delete tables & 
records. The Database Query Builder provides you with a wizard-like way 
to access external databases, but there are built-in commands for doing 
it all yourself as well. Anyway, it wil give you an idea of how to 
start testing.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 6 avr. 04, à 19:12, Bruce Robertson a écrit :

3. Are there functions, plug-ins, tool-sets to handle complex
relationships, entity diagrams, data validation?
Can't help on that for I do not understand what you're meaning... =/
Those are all very basic database terms. The fact that they are 
unfamiliar
and do not appear much in Rev database discussions suggests that the 
state
of affairs in Rev database management is not very robust.
Hum,

Perhaps that from a strict technical point of view, it will always 
seems more academic to "develop" networked apps in coding basic core 
java or, more seriously, in using dedicated framrworks alike VP-UML, 
Eclipse, Struts, Tile, Ant, XDoclet and tools like JBoss, TomCat, JSP's 
and EJB 2.0, AndroMDA, Oracle and so on,... to get apps growing in 
shared CVS repertories, as coded, along months, by 10 to 20 developpers 
teams..., to get, to the end, apps that are going to run 60 times 
slower than the ones that a designer will create and build, in the same 
time, in using an Ultra High Level Langage, alike Revolution...

If you can get your project up in thinking it before starting to code 
it, you will find lots of interesting things in learning how to get the 
best from tools alike Metacard, Revolution (or, even, but in a lessly 
mesure, by using PHP and Rebol). Else, it's probably best to choose the 
low level technical way. It's not because the XP programming paradigm 
is natively supported by Rev that anyone can see it nor need to get the 
best from it...

Revolution is, as VHLL, core engine, IDE and framework, a developpement 
tool built to let us manage and handle the more powerfull projects we 
can think, including all the possibillities of the object-relational 
mapping paradigm. But, sure that, just as an example, to drive and 
manage, under Unix, PostgreSQL, Sybase ASE 12.5 or others ACID 
compliant datawarehouse back-ends trough MC or Rev, it will need more 
than just time and work...

Hope this can help,

--
Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores
100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
psahores (at) easynet.fr

GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:  +33 1 41 60 52 68
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Andre Garzia]

On Apr 6, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

Those are all very basic database terms. The fact that they are 
unfamiliar
and do not appear much in Rev database discussions suggests that the 
state
of affairs in Rev database management is not very robust.


oops, let me explain, first, I am a native portuguese speaking person, 
so it's commom for me not to understand things. Second, I was trying to 
understand if you want to program (meaning code) your relationships, or 
if you want to design them visually I think, I might be wrong, but 
any relationship can be expressed by means of clever designed SQL and 
tables, like equijoins and the like... when you talk about data 
validation, well, engine will complain of bad data, and the rest, 
you're supposed to program... I am just trying to understand what 
you're trying to do.. I have no experience with FMP, just SQL databases 
from MS SQL to MySQL...

Cheers

--
Andre Alves Garzia  2004
Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Geoff Canyon]

I think I set it to minor, which isn't quite the same thing as 
not-important. ;-)

For what it's worth, you didn't submit this bug -- Monte did. The bug 
submission didn't describe anything that was being harmed by the bug -- 
no product broken, no development being stopped. That's why I classed 
it as minor.

So as a suggestion to anyone submitting an IDE bug: if you want it to 
take priority, be sure add a sentence or two describing why it's a 
problem.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Apr 6, 2004, at 1:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've asked on numerous occasions with no success. Entered bug reports 
and
still am waiting with no solution in sight (see bug 34 which was 
commented
yesterday
by Geoff as not-important...
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Norman Winn]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. The URLs given mean I have quite a lot of 
studying to do before being able to add much to the debate. A couple of 
replies off-list have suggested I make my needs more clear.

1) Current solution has about 15 users accessing stuff from FM server.
2) Solution is not web enabled. This ability would be handy. Are RR 
stacks inherently web ready? I suspect not.

Just a few criticisms/observations:

One aspect of RR development I am disappointed in is the syntax 
checking in scripts. Seems to let many errors through. Why don't I get 
feedback when I click 'Apply'?  I accept syntax analysis is more 
difficult when objects don't have to be declared.

Why doesn't the 'Window' menu include the help windows I have open?

Have suffered a crash (OS X 10.3.3). Think this was due to a button 
script acting on an empty object.

Which objects should I use to make a grid display of small, simple 
images? I want to have around 30 variables that contain images, say 
16X16 pixels. The grid would fill with these images depending on 
external data. Columns represent days and rows represent the timeline 
of a stock item (resource). Tell me to go away and do the work if this 
is too detailed a question,

Norman

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Andre Garzia]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 7:24 AM, Norman Winn wrote:

1) Current solution has about 15 users accessing stuff from FM server.
2) Solution is not web enabled. This ability would be handy. Are RR 
stacks inherently web ready? I suspect not.


Norman,

trying to answer you questions =)

well multiple users accessing a database in a single tier enviroment 
are realy matter of the RDBMS, if you settle for multi-tier then it's 
easy to program it's logic.

about issue two, I *hate* to disapoint you but there's nothing more web 
ready than Revolution! =)

yes, there are tons of stacks that are web ready, and for a glimpse 
into the future and the endless possibilities of our net-savvy 
Revolution, try looking at my home server at 
http://home.soapdog.org:8081/

It's a http Server, a DB enviroment and development framework, all them 
built in pure Transcript. All apps are stacks running in the server, 
when you access for example the /about url you are accesssing about 
substack, and they are all web enabled. My development framework 
features automatic data transportation from web enviroment (GET and 
POST form data, XML-RPC...) to Revolution enviroment, I've got a cool 
utilities suite that's able to convert simple field based revolution 
windows to HTML Forms on the fly and take care of all the data 
transportation. With this framework I delivered many solutions, all web 
based, from custom sites like shopping carts, to apps that at the first 
look share nothing with the web like chat apps (but the chat app uses 
HTTP as protocol for chat...)

We have powerfull resources to mix web stuff with rev, I just applied 
my personal vision to them, but many here got different experiences. 
Thats just possible for Rev makes very very easy to use anything 
web-savvy. I urge you to take a quick look at my server and also on 
project LibCGI (which is an inspiration for me).

Also many standalone software here got a 'Check for updates' feature 
that will use HTTP as their protocol.

I do think that you're trying to create a conduit to your DB, so that 
users could access it from a browser interface. I've got some examples 
of that on my home server. I've got a little user database there, you 
can access it to see users, edit them or add them. It has only 10 lines 
of code, everything is handled by my framework, it will take care of 
generating the forms on the fly, will match form fields with revolution 
fields, will trigger the 'saving' routine after submit button is 
pressed. It's a little tech demo.

Don't be so pessimistic (does this word exist in english?), we can do a 
revolution togheter, Revolution can do web in a very high level way, 
leaving you to ponder about the logic of your program, we've got many 
experiences and code to share. You can to DB with Rev, you can pipe 
your DB to the Web on the fly. You could use my code, you could hire me 
for the job of custom stack development, you could write your own code 
(it's not that difficult), if you plan to use static web site, with no 
interaction, just to browse the DB  you always have Fourth World 
(http://www.fourthworld.com) WebMerge app, that will take a DB and 
generate static HTML for it.

As they say, let there be options!

Cheers
Andre
--
Andre Alves Garzia  2004
Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Trevor DeVore]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:24 AM, Norman Winn wrote:
Which objects should I use to make a grid display of small, simple 
images? I want to have around 30 variables that contain images, say 
16X16 pixels. The grid would fill with these images depending on 
external data. Columns represent days and rows represent the timeline 
of a stock item (resource). Tell me to go away and do the work if this 
is too detailed a question,
I would create a group that would hold your image grid.  This allows 
you to easily delete all of the images each time you want to recreate 
the grid -

repeat with i = number of controls of group "MyGroup" down to 1
delete control i of group "MyGroup"
end repeat
If you ever have to scroll your image grid then you can set the 
vScrollbar of the group to true -

if (formattedHeight of group "MyGroup" > height of group "MyGroup") 
then set vScrollbar of group "MyGroup" to true

Here is some code I use in one of my applications.  My array is 
populated by a database query which is where tTutorialData comes from -

put 10 into tRowLimit
put left of group "Tutorials" into tLeftEdge
put tLeftEdge into tX
put top of group "Tutorials" into tY
put 100 into tWidth
put 100 into tHeight
put 10 into tMarginY
put 10 into tMarginX
repeat with i = 1 to tTutorialData["Length"]	
##
## Create image
##
create image ("Media_" & tTutorialData["Data",i,"ID"]) in group 
"Tutorials"
put it into tObjRef
set fileName of tObjRef to libSys_AppPath() & "/Media/" & 
tTutorialData["Data",i,"Thumbnail"]
set the uID of tObjRef to tTutorialData["Data",i,"ID"]
set width of tObjRef to tWidth
set height of tObjRef to tHeight
set topLeft of tObjRef to (tX, tY)

## Adjust next positions
if (i mod tRowLimit = 0) then
  put tLeftEdge into tX
  add tHeight to tY
  add tMarginY to tY
else
  add tMarginX to tX
  add tWidth to tX
end if
end repeat
Hope this helps,

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Geoff Canyon]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 10:55 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

well multiple users accessing a database in a single tier enviroment
are realy matter of the RDBMS, if you settle for multi-tier then it's
easy to program it's logic.
That's really not much of an answer, and that is one thing that 
continues to
strike me about Rev database access discussions. They seem quite 
shallow and
unrealistic.
I think you're being unfair to Andre here. Revolution is an 
application-building tool that has robust database access. FileMaker is 
a database-building tool that has limited application-building 
capabilities.

As such, of course every aspect of database access is built-in to 
FileMaker, and any reasonably skilled FileMaker developer is going to 
be able to answer them in the context of FileMaker.

With Revolution, on the other hand, there are a thousand different ways 
you could put together "a database application." People here have 
outlined many of them. Many questions that would be relevant in a 
discussion of developing database applications with FileMaker are a 
matter of the database engine: record-locking, relation setup, 
triggers, stored procedures, atomicity, consistency, isolation, 
durability, etc.

Revolution makes the front end, and all the interactivity therein. So 
your questions need to be divided into two categories: those that are 
appropriate on this list, and those that may be appropriate on this 
list, but might also belong on the MySQL, PostgreSQL... list.

I think you'll get a much better answer if you ask a question like this:

I have a fifteen-user FileMaker Pro database that uses instant web 
publishing to allow casual users access when they're out of the office. 
I want to create something similar using MySQL as a back end and I'm 
considering Revolution as a front end. What issues do I need to be 
aware of when deciding whether to use Rev or not?

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Brian Yennie]

That's really not much of an answer, and that is one thing that 
continues to
strike me about Rev database access discussions. They seem quite 
shallow and
unrealistic.

All the multi-user record locking etc is built into Filemaker, it is 
robust
and easy to use. Even so, there is a long range of subtle issues that 
come
up in developer conversations all the time. Some are Filemaker 
specific,
some are generic to handling and updating datasets.
That's because FileMaker is an end-user database. Rev is a developer 
tool with database connectivity. The former consolidates all you need 
to know about databases into one product. The latter requires you to be 
proficient with MySQL, Postgres, Oracle, or whatever your back-end is. 
Record locking is not the same in different RDBMS, and if you want to 
implement it yourself then you will need to research techniques and 
implement them. There's no "ON" button for it, because MySQL/etc is not 
a part of Rev.

If you are going to make the transition from FileMaker to Rev, there is 
going to be a serious database engine learning curve. While this list 
is very responsive, it's definitely not the best place to learn about 
RDBMS.

I know that you're not claiming that your responses are the definitive
answer on Rev multi-user database access. But what IS the source for 
that
information?
This list is the source of information on scripting applications in 
Rev; however, you'll need to have a firm grasp on your database engine 
of choice as well, and that you won't find here.

I would start by picking a back-end, and figuring out what features it 
has. Then consult the list with a specific question. For example, 
"MySQL doesn't do row level record locking, how can I implement it in 
Transcript in my application".

Rev may be great for multi-user database access. And perhaps many 
people may
have these issues worked out.

But the answers I've seen so far are sort of like asking how do I win 
the
Indy 500? Oh, you just get in and turn the  key.

There is a LOT more to it than that.
Indeed, but I think that's because people are merely suggesting 
approaches. It's beyond the scope of this list to show you how to 
replicate all of FileMaker in Rev.

Personally, I think Rev is great for database access, and it can 
certainly do more than FileMaker, but it will in fact do a lot less 
"out of the box". If you're looking for a complete roadmap, it ain't 
here. But there are many experts in Transcript and a few in RDBMS here 
that can help you piece by piece.

I think you'll find your mileage is even less in other systems- try 
picking up PHP web apps straight from FileMaker! But once you get over 
a few hurdles and get acclimated, you'll have a lot of power at your 
fingertips.

HTH,
Brian
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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Norman Winn]

Hi,

As the person originating this thread and considering moving from 
Filemaker to RR I am aware that I must recreate my interface and set 
about choosing, learning an SQL type database system.

My concerns in contemplating this move are:

1. Can I reproduce enough of my interface to satisfy my client?

2.  Can I solve my speed bottlenecks? This is not unrelated to (1) as, 
if the client sees big speed improvements here, he is likely to be 
tolerant of interface differences. In this respect, I think the 
possibilities look very good.

3. Is there anything I cannot replicate with enough effort?

4. After the initial learning curve will my productivity be greater 
than with competing tools?

5. As RR's scripting is proprietary it is most critical the company 
stick around so my investment in time will not be lost. I cannot over 
emphasise how important the activity and supportiveness of this list is 
in providing reassurance.

The potential benefits of the effort are large. If I take on the 
problems I have a solution that I own i.e. no runtime licences, that I 
can sculpt in myriad fashions not available in FM. I have 
data/interface separation. The solution is useable over WANs. I believe 
I get live backups with the right DB. I have better version control and 
more fluid update procedure ...

Norman Winn

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Richard Gaskin]

Norman Winn wrote:

As the person originating this thread and considering moving from 
Filemaker to RR I am aware that I must recreate my interface and set 
about choosing, learning an SQL type database system.

My concerns in contemplating this move are:

1. Can I reproduce enough of my interface to satisfy my client?
Probably more so.

User interfaces are primarily event-driven, responsing to user gestures 
on controls.

FMP is pretty much limited to two events:  mouseUp on a button and 
menuPick in a menu item.

In FMP you have only one modifiable menu, so if you need a custom file 
import routine you can't put it in the File menu where a user would 
expect it, but must place it in the Scripts menu.

Rev has dozens of events to respond to, so the flexibility is almost 
mind-boggling when coming from FMP.  For example, it's quite common for 
a double-click event in a list to trigger the default action, usually a 
button in the layout.  This triggering is not possible in FMP, but is a 
trival extra to include in Rev:

   on mouseDoubleUp
 click at the loc of btn 1
   end mouseDoubleUp
Other advantages I like are the flexibility and ease of parsing using 
chunk expressions ("get word 1 of line 2 of gMyGlobalVar"), and being 
able to use true global variables rather than needing to add fields to a 
 table, and many others

2.  Can I solve my speed bottlenecks? This is not unrelated to (1) as, 
if the client sees big speed improvements here, he is likely to be 
tolerant of interface differences. In this respect, I think the 
possibilities look very good.
I would be surprised if you find areas where FMP's DB outperforms the 
highly-optimized MySQL engine, or its UI outperforms Rev.

And I don't know if this is now and option in FMP7, but in previous 
versions windows were not double-buffered, which gave layouts a bit of a 
clumsy effect during redraw (akin to Mac Classic dialogs, in which 
controls are drawn directly to screen one at a time rather than into a 
buffer and having the buffer copied over in one move).

Rev allows you control over double-buffering (just set the alwaysBuffer 
of a stack to true), making for a very smooth, modern-feeling redraw.


3. Is there anything I cannot replicate with enough effort?
I've come across nothing I can't deliver more gracefully in Rev.  Some 
things are easier than others, as it true with any system, but overall 
the balance I find with Rev is quite favorable.

I still like FMP for internal databases -- my billing system is built in 
FMP (though I'm slowly migrating portions to Rev).  FMP is a great way 
to put together workgroup solutions really quickly with minimal effort.

But for client deliverables, though I like to include FMP in our tools 
evaluation matrix at the outset of a new project, it usually gets booted 
early on because of its minimal UI flexibility.

4. After the initial learning curve will my productivity be greater than 
with competing tools?
In my experience, yes.  As a true scripting language you'll get farther 
than with the confines of FMP's point-and-click "scripting", and as a 
very-high-level language you'll get more done per line than in most 
other languages.

5. As RR's scripting is proprietary it is most critical the company 
stick around so my investment in time will not be lost. I cannot over 
emphasise how important the activity and supportiveness of this list is 
in providing reassurance.
The Rev engine was acquired by Runtime Revolution Ltd. last year, after 
having been in the market for 13 years under its former name, MetaCard. 
  With almost no marketing, MetaCard Corp. was able to keep expanding 
the engine and the number of supported platforms without difficulty, and 
with Runtime Revolution Ltd's strong marketing efforts (they just won a 
MacEddy for v2.2) there should be no reason for this growth to slow down.

Of course, if you've been in the business as long as I have you know 
that products come and go, even from big companies like Oracle and 
Sybase.  But enough people have enough invested in the engine and it has 
a sufficiently strong and well-demonstrated value proposition that I 
have confidence in it being around for many years to come.

MySQL, of course, looks like it's going to be here a very, very long time.


The potential benefits of the effort are large. If I take on the 
problems I have a solution that I own i.e. no runtime licences, that I 
can sculpt in myriad fashions not available in FM. I have data/interface 
separation. 
Amen.  De-coupling UI, logic, and data carries tremendous value, and is 
easy to do with Rev.

In a way, Rev could be said to be far closer to 4D than to FMP, as 4D 
provides a rich programming language and event-driven UIs.  But even 
then, IMNSHO comparisons favor Rev's simpler language and greater 
variety of supported platforms, not to mention the strength of relying 
on MySQL for storage and retrieval, which is fast becoming a de-facto 
standard.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourt

Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Bruce Robertson]

> 
> In a way, Rev could be said to be far closer to 4D than to FMP, as 4D
> provides a rich programming language and event-driven UIs.  But even
> then, IMNSHO comparisons favor Rev's simpler language and greater
> variety of supported platforms, not to mention the strength of relying
> on MySQL for storage and retrieval, which is fast becoming a de-facto
> standard.

Just remember that according to the terms of the MySQL license, if you
haven't used the commercial license (and I suspect most people conveniently
ignore this) you are obligated to release the source of your solution for
free.

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Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 12 avr. 04, à 01:43, Norman Winn a écrit :

Hi,

As the person originating this thread and considering moving from 
Filemaker to RR I am aware that I must recreate my interface and set 
about choosing, learning an SQL type database system.

My concerns in contemplating this move are:

1. Can I reproduce enough of my interface to satisfy my client?
Yes, for sure.
2.  Can I solve my speed bottlenecks? This is not unrelated to (1) as, 
if the client sees big speed improvements here, he is likely to be 
tolerant of interface differences. In this respect, I think the 
possibilities look very good.
Yes. RR + a rock-solid SQL db server (PostgreSQL or FireBird prefered 
there) will let you get more speed improvements than you will ever 
need. In using this kind of solutions, both the speed and the 
security/integrity of the dats are never going to be a problem anymore.

Under the *nixes platforms, to handle the same tasks, the RR engine 
runs 60 times faster than the 1.4.x issue of the JVM. On the database 
side, it's no really ways to compare FileMaker and PostgreSQL in about 
speed considerations : As a basic datafiles system FMP is going slower 
and slower with the growing files where the "response-time to queries " 
is almost not indexed on the length and the number of the tables 
handled by a PostgreSQL server.

3. Is there anything I cannot replicate with enough effort?
No.
4. After the initial learning curve will my productivity be greater 
than with competing tools?
Yes. Three months after switching from a flat-files db paradigm to 
PostgreSQL, i had learned all what i needed to know about running 
PostgreSQL as an RR back-end db system.
5. As RR's scripting is proprietary it is most critical the company 
stick around so my investment in time will not be lost. I cannot over 
emphasise how important the activity and supportiveness of this list 
is in providing reassurance.
To get the confidence of the customers, the best is to explain (and 
show by the results) how much the use of RR+SQL, instead of 
Java+object/relational mapping+SQL as an example, make sense in both 
terms of "Time-to-Market" and Security... In about security, Java 
coding and against the last tendances who says it's good to use as many 
frameworks as possible to integreate prebuild jsp/java-beans, we have 
to remerber that only core java coding let us control what we are 
"putting in the boxes"...

The potential benefits of the effort are large. If I take on the 
problems I have a solution that I own i.e. no runtime licences, that I 
can sculpt in myriad fashions not available in FM. I have 
data/interface separation. The solution is useable over WANs. I 
believe I get live backups with the right DB. I have better version 
control and more fluid update procedure ...

True ! I'm using MC/RR to build WAN Web/ERP's "n-tier" apps since 1998 
and, even if i'm always watching around to learn how others are doing 
(Java, PHP and so on...), i just know that there are no best ways, for 
me, to design, code, deploy and handle such kind of apps than in using 
MC/RR in about the application's logic and a rock-solid ACID SQL 
datawarehouse solution as the backend system.

Hope this can help :)

Best,

Pierre

Norman Winn

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100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
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GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:  +33 1 41 60 52 68
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Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis
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Penser et produire "delta de productivité"
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Re: Bugs in Bugzilla Was Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade (Geoff Canyon)

[xbury . cs]

Hi guys,


After seeing some blocking bugs (that crash RR) that never got a reply,
it would be nice to know how to make issues that are important and cause
delays in software delivery be responded sooner. 

Votes on a bug seem to be more important that bug criticallity it seems.

If I lay 90 of my votes on a bug, will it be answered faster? 
Do I get my points back after the problem is solved?

Thanks for any hints!!
Xavier

On 08.04.2004 14:45:57 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
>Geoff,
>
>On a similar point, I also don't know how these proceed. Following your
>suggestion a few weeks ago  I posted bugs 1374, 1375 relating to 
behaviour
>in Windows without QuickTime and inability to play WAV files. It could be
>debatable as to whether these are bugs or feature issues, but the 
Quicktime
>issue seems to me to be a bug as in my copy of System Requirements, it
>states QT needed for development (and only video features) but not for
>Applications. So I don't understand why player controls and WAV don't
>function without QT on the target machine.
>
>Anyway, my question is really - what happens to these submissions now - 
do I
>need to do more?
>
>Cheers
>Steve
>
>>I think I set it to minor, which isn't quite the same thing as
>>not-important. ;-)
>
>>For what it's worth, you didn't submit this bug -- Monte did. The bug
>>submission didn't describe anything that was being harmed by the bug --
>>no product broken, no development being stopped. That's why I classed
>>it as minor.
>
>>So as a suggestion to anyone submitting an IDE bug: if you want it to
>>take priority, be sure add a sentence or two describing why it's a
>>problem.
>
>>regards,
>
>>Geoff Canyon
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>On Apr 6, 2004, at 1:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> I've asked on numerous occasions with no success. Entered bug reports
>> and
>> still am waiting with no solution in sight (see bug 34 which was
>> commented
>> yesterday
>> by Geoff as not-important...
>
>
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Re: Bugs in Bugzilla Was Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade (Geoff Canyon)

[Geoff Canyon]

I'm in the process of going through all the bugs. When I'm done, all of 
them will be assigned to a release of Revolution, which (for the 
record) doesn't absolutely guarantee they will be fixed in that 
release, but gives a good indication.

The criteria (roughly -- off the top of my head) are:

 -- Is it crashing people's built applications?
 -- Is it impairing significant functionality in people's built 
applications?
 -- Is it crashing people in Revolution?
 -- Is it impairing significant functionality in the Revolution IDE?

For all of these, votes serve to give a measure of how many people are 
experiencing the problem, and how much of a problem it is for them. 
Votes can rank bugs within these categories. Whether there is a 
workaround can impact the importance of a bug.

There are a myriad other considerations, but that gives a rough idea. 
If any of this isn't clear, or you think I'm being wrong-headed, feel 
free to say so.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Apr 8, 2004, at 6:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi guys,

After seeing some blocking bugs (that crash RR) that never got a reply,
it would be nice to know how to make issues that are important and 
cause
delays in software delivery be responded sooner.

Votes on a bug seem to be more important that bug criticallity it 
seems.

If I lay 90 of my votes on a bug, will it be answered faster?
Do I get my points back after the problem is solved?
Thanks for any hints!!
Xavier
On 08.04.2004 14:45:57 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
Geoff,

On a similar point, I also don't know how these proceed. Following 
your
suggestion a few weeks ago  I posted bugs 1374, 1375 relating to
behaviour
in Windows without QuickTime and inability to play WAV files. It 
could be
debatable as to whether these are bugs or feature issues, but the
Quicktime
issue seems to me to be a bug as in my copy of System Requirements, it
states QT needed for development (and only video features) but not for
Applications. So I don't understand why player controls and WAV don't
function without QT on the target machine.
Anyway, my question is really - what happens to these submissions now 
-
do I
need to do more?

Cheers
Steve
I think I set it to minor, which isn't quite the same thing as
not-important. ;-)

For what it's worth, you didn't submit this bug -- Monte did. The bug
submission didn't describe anything that was being harmed by the bug 
--
no product broken, no development being stopped. That's why I classed
it as minor.

So as a suggestion to anyone submitting an IDE bug: if you want it to
take priority, be sure add a sentence or two describing why it's a
problem.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Apr 6, 2004, at 1:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've asked on numerous occasions with no success. Entered bug reports
and
still am waiting with no solution in sight (see bug 34 which was
commented
yesterday
by Geoff as not-important...


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Re: Bugs in Bugzilla Was Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade (Geoff Canyon)

[Dar Scott]

On Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 09:35 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote:

 -- Is it crashing people in Revolution?
I have noticed that I have been crashing.

Dar

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Re: Bugs in Bugzilla Was Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade (Geoff Canyon)

[Geoff Canyon]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 8:50 AM, Dar Scott wrote:

On Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 09:35 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote:

 -- Is it crashing people in Revolution?
I have noticed that I have been crashing.

Dar
If the issue isn't in bugzilla, please enter it. If it is, great.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Bugs in Bugzilla Was Re: Hello from a Filemaker renegade (Geoff Canyon)

[Geoff Canyon]

Sorry, the joke went right past me.

I was drawing the distinction between a crashing bug in something that 
you build and give/sell to others, which is as bad as it gets, and a 
crashing bug that causes the IDE to die while you're developing 
software. That's bad too, but not nearly as bad. Better that you crash 
ten times than that your customer crashes once.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Apr 10, 2004, at 12:08 AM, Dar Scott wrote:

On Friday, April 9, 2004, at 08:44 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote:

 -- Is it crashing people in Revolution?
I have noticed that I have been crashing.

Dar
If the issue isn't in bugzilla, please enter it. If it is, great.
But there is only bugzilla for Revolution and Ten Thumbs Typing Tutor; 
there is no place for reporting bugs in Dar.

Arg, I'm dragging on a dumb joke and it still might not work.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't understand your original line 
describing a bug attribute: "Is it crashing people in Revolution?"  It 
is not clear to me how it is different from the others.  I thought 
perhaps you actually meant bugs that caused people to get discouraged, 
cranky, stimied or something.  Now, I think that less likely.

Dar Scott

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