Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-18 Thread Jim Ault
On 11/18/06 7:09 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>> Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't  ole in't ground --
>> Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted  from our 'ole in't ground!
> 
> You were lucky! When I were a lad, we only  deamed of having a hole!
> 
Yeah, and my dad said back then they were saving up so they could afford a
hole someday, then have kids, so I guess they finally succeeded and ended up
the hole.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-18 Thread FlexibleLearning
> Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't  ole in't ground --
> Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted  from our 'ole in't ground!

You were lucky! When I were a lad, we only  deamed of having a hole!

/H  

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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Dave


On 17 Nov 2006, at 19:24, Andre Garzia wrote:



Mark,

my definition of horrible is like this: "when you go to an airport  
and the ATC personal are on strike asking for more humane  
conditions for work, it appears that earning more than 10 times the  
minimum wage is not enough, then you loose all your connections,  
you hop from plane to plane, airport to airport, connecting as if  
your flight plan was devised by some fractal expert and when you  
finally arrive at your destination, all tired, needing a shave and  
a bath so that you can keep calling yourself human, you notice  
after two hours that your luggage is not appearing in the  
carrousel, you go ask the clerk if by any chance your lugagge is  
there, and the clerk answers: "sir, by any chance, you connected  
thru amundsen base in antartica?"... After recovering from the  
shock, you keep washing your only pair of clothes day after day and  
maybe a week later your luggage arrives with stamps for so many  
countries that the U.N. should promote it to ambassador or good  
will agent. When you finally open your luggage, you discover that  
you forgot your set of underpants at your home."


that is a horrible situation, add snow if you like it.

andre


Oh you went on that package too!

I thought I had it bad

All the Best
Dave

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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Dave


On 17 Nov 2006, at 18:25, Mark Wieder wrote:


Andre-

Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote:


gee what a horrible thread


Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had
horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow...



Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't ole in't ground --
Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted from our 'ole in't ground!

Take Care
Dave

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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Andre Garzia

Mark,

my definition of horrible is like this: "when you go to an airport and the ATC 
personal are on strike asking for more humane conditions for work, it appears 
that earning more than 10 times the minimum wage is not enough, then you loose 
all your connections, you hop from plane to plane, airport to airport, 
connecting as if your flight plan was devised by some fractal expert and when 
you finally arrive at your destination, all tired, needing a shave and a bath 
so that you can keep calling yourself human, you notice after two hours that 
your luggage is not appearing in the carrousel, you go ask the clerk if by any 
chance your lugagge is there, and the clerk answers: "sir, by any chance, you 
connected thru amundsen base in antartica?"... After recovering from the shock, 
you keep washing your only pair of clothes day after day and maybe a week later 
your luggage arrives with stamps for so many countries that the U.N. should 
promote it to ambassador or good will agent. When you finally open your 
luggage, you discover that you forgot your set of underpants at your home."

that is a horrible situation, add snow if you like it.

andre
 
On Friday, November 17, 2006, at 06:26AM, "Mark Wieder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>Andre-
>
>Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote:
>
>> gee what a horrible thread
>
>Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had
>horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow...
>
>-- 
>-Mark Wieder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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>
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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Mark Wieder
Andre-

Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote:

> gee what a horrible thread

Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had
horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow...

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Mark Wieder
Dan-

Thursday, November 16, 2006, 5:16:48 PM, you wrote:

> Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the
> product. If this list were nothing but bugs,  hints, tips and tech trivia,

Maybe it's me, but I thought that's what Dave was saying...

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Jeffrey Reynolds

Jacqueline,

You owe me a new keyboard now, you made me spit my coffee up onto the  
keyboard! LOL great one and perfect for the moment!


cheers,

jeff

Jeffrey Reynolds

On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Jacqueline wrote:



Question: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to  
change

a light bulb? Answer: 1,343


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Andre Garzia

gee what a horrible thread


On Nov 17, 2006, at 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:



On 17 Nov 2006, at 08:35, Bernard Devlin wrote:


Dave said

> I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on
> this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:
>
> Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about
> RunRev and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by
> relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably
> already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating
> problems
>  []
> Well lets all just make a deal?
>
> No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from
> falling

Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you  
and me.


Slightly, it was mostly based an earlier flame-fest which was  
started in the "Quality #1 issue" thread I think.


I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4 years.   
Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put up  
claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge  
them.  As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going  
to make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the  
company is in danger of going out of business because of this,


There are a lot of bugs in the RunRev Engine, the IDE and the  
documentation that have not been fixed in over three years and some  
of them are very low level and therefore fundamental to the system.



I'm not going to let it go unchallenged.


Does it make you feel better?


What you're asking for is an end to discussion.


I don't mind a discussion but lets keep it to the subject at hand  
and not resort to mud-slinging and low beahaviour.


You are asking to be able to make exagerrated claims (positive or  
negative), and for these claims to go unchallenged.


I don't make exagerrated claims. I don't care if they are  
challenged or not.


I got involved in a debate with you precisely because you seem to  
have little hesitancy in making sweeping or false allegations  
(these are all from 10th Nov):


"There is definitely a problem with "silly" bugs and lack of a  
clear way of finding answers to problems"




"it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev  
'expert'."


"more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than  
the IDE."


"something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and  
make the IDE much more stable"


"I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over  
hauled."


All the above is true, and, it seems that RunRev think that way too  
since they are now making a bug-fix release. Hooray!



"RunRev will stop growing and eventually die."


This is out of context, I think what I said was that if they didn't  
fix some of the old bugs and address the support pricing issue it  
would stop growing and eventually die, and I believe this to be  
true. However, no one can say 100% what will happen, so it's really  
not worth arguing about/discussing it.



I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in "personal crap".


If you say so.

  I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated  
and/or false.  When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a  
fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more  
about what is going on in that situation so that we could work  
together as a group to try to get that bug fixed.


Everything that can be done as a 3rd party developer has been done  
on this bug, unless you can think of something else, but from your  
posts it doesn't seem like you can think of anything either. Apart  
from the reasons I mentioned in another post, I also wanted to see  
if it had been addressed in 2.7.x, it seems it hasn't. Given that  
this problem is fundamental to the whole system and given that it  
can take a very long time to track down and isolate, it would seem  
reasonable that at the very least the documentation be changed to  
include some kind of warning about the use of "me" and the  
sharedText property in fields. This could easily have been done in  
any of the releases since March,


But it seems that you are more interested in complaining about  
bugs and running down Runrev than you are in solving them and  
promoting Rev.


The point is that there are LOADS of bugs that have been logged for  
a LONG TIME without being fixed. Over and over we get a new release  
with all the same bugs present plus a lot of new problems. I just  
feel that there should be a bug-fix release, which is now going to  
happen. I could either do nothing or voice an opinion here.


I've sold 4 (I think) RunRev Licenses in the past three years, If  
that's not "promoting Rev" then I don't know what is!  I've come  
close to selling 4 or 5 more, but unfortunately the bugs I  
mentioned above (along with other factors I have already mentioned)  
prevented these sales.



Having been challenged,


Sorry I didn't realize I'd been challenged! Must have missed 

Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Dave


On 17 Nov 2006, at 08:35, Bernard Devlin wrote:


Dave said

> I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on
> this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:
>
> Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about
> RunRev and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by
> relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably
> already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating
> problems
>  []
> Well lets all just make a deal?
>
> No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from
> falling

Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you  
and me.


Slightly, it was mostly based an earlier flame-fest which was started  
in the "Quality #1 issue" thread I think.


I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4 years.   
Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put up  
claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge  
them.  As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going  
to make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the  
company is in danger of going out of business because of this,


There are a lot of bugs in the RunRev Engine, the IDE and the  
documentation that have not been fixed in over three years and some  
of them are very low level and therefore fundamental to the system.



I'm not going to let it go unchallenged.


Does it make you feel better?


What you're asking for is an end to discussion.


I don't mind a discussion but lets keep it to the subject at hand and  
not resort to mud-slinging and low beahaviour.


You are asking to be able to make exagerrated claims (positive or  
negative), and for these claims to go unchallenged.


I don't make exagerrated claims. I don't care if they are challenged  
or not.


I got involved in a debate with you precisely because you seem to  
have little hesitancy in making sweeping or false allegations  
(these are all from 10th Nov):


"There is definitely a problem with "silly" bugs and lack of a  
clear way of finding answers to problems"




"it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev  
'expert'."


"more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than  
the IDE."


"something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and make  
the IDE much more stable"


"I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over  
hauled."


All the above is true, and, it seems that RunRev think that way too  
since they are now making a bug-fix release. Hooray!



"RunRev will stop growing and eventually die."


This is out of context, I think what I said was that if they didn't  
fix some of the old bugs and address the support pricing issue it  
would stop growing and eventually die, and I believe this to be true.  
However, no one can say 100% what will happen, so it's really not  
worth arguing about/discussing it.



I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in "personal crap".


If you say so.

  I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated and/ 
or false.  When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a  
fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more about  
what is going on in that situation so that we could work together  
as a group to try to get that bug fixed.


Everything that can be done as a 3rd party developer has been done on  
this bug, unless you can think of something else, but from your posts  
it doesn't seem like you can think of anything either. Apart from the  
reasons I mentioned in another post, I also wanted to see if it had  
been addressed in 2.7.x, it seems it hasn't. Given that this problem  
is fundamental to the whole system and given that it can take a very  
long time to track down and isolate, it would seem reasonable that at  
the very least the documentation be changed to include some kind of  
warning about the use of "me" and the sharedText property in fields.  
This could easily have been done in any of the releases since March,


But it seems that you are more interested in complaining about bugs  
and running down Runrev than you are in solving them and promoting  
Rev.


The point is that there are LOADS of bugs that have been logged for a  
LONG TIME without being fixed. Over and over we get a new release  
with all the same bugs present plus a lot of new problems. I just  
feel that there should be a bug-fix release, which is now going to  
happen. I could either do nothing or voice an opinion here.


I've sold 4 (I think) RunRev Licenses in the past three years, If  
that's not "promoting Rev" then I don't know what is!  I've come  
close to selling 4 or 5 more, but unfortunately the bugs I mentioned  
above (along with other factors I have already mentioned) prevented  
these sales.



Having been challenged,


Sorry I didn't realize I'd been challenged! Must have missed that bit!

you're now asking that no-one rain on your your parade.   That's  
n

Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-17 Thread Bernard Devlin

Dave said

> I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on
> this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:
>
> Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about
> RunRev and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by
> relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably
> already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating
> problems
>  []
> Well lets all just make a deal?
>
> No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from
> falling

Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you and  
me.  I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4  
years.  Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put  
up claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge  
them.  As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going to  
make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the company  
is in danger of going out of business because of this, I'm not going  
to let it go unchallenged.  I also work with Lotus Notes every day,  
and I see more bugs in Notes on a daily basis (and that is as a user,  
not even as a Notes developer) than I do in Rev, and Notes is used by  
something like 200 million people worldwide.  I wouldn't even say  
Notes was fundamentally buggy - it is a complex piece of software,  
and the bugs don't stop me from doing what I need to do.  I've had OS  
X and XP crash on me numerous times, and actually lost work in the  
process - maybe that makes all software fundamentally buggy.


What you're asking for is an end to discussion.  You are asking to be  
able to make exagerrated claims (positive or negative), and for these  
claims to go unchallenged.  I got involved in a debate with you  
precisely because you seem to have little hesitancy in making  
sweeping or false allegations (these are all from 10th Nov):


"There is definitely a problem with "silly" bugs and lack of a clear  
way of finding answers to problems"


"it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev  
'expert'."


"more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than  
the IDE."


"something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and make  
the IDE much more stable"


"RunRev will stop growing and eventually die."

"I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over  
hauled."


I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in "personal crap".   
I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated and/or  
false.  When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a  
fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more about  
what is going on in that situation so that we could work together as  
a group to try to get that bug fixed.  But it seems that you are more  
interested in complaining about bugs and running down Runrev than you  
are in solving them and promoting Rev.  Having been challenged,  
you're now asking that no-one rain on your your parade.   That's not  
a reasonable thing to ask for.



Bernard


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Scott Kane



I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is
a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the opportunity 
to post this old chestnut:


ROFL!!   That's excellent.  I've not stumbled on this one before.  I 
moderate three Usenet big 8 groups.  These groups have alt.* competitors. 
the alt.* competitors get more posts because the moderated groups don't 
allow flames or name calling.  I'm going to share this little gem with some 
of my fellow moderators.  It'll knock them over.


Thanks for posting it,

Scott 


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Ken Ray
On 11/16/06 8:24 PM, "J. Landman Gay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dave wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this
>> list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:
> 
> I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is
> a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the
> opportunity to post this old chestnut:

LOL! That's great, Jacque!


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread J. Landman Gay

Dave wrote:

Hi,

I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this 
list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:


I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is 
a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the 
opportunity to post this old chestnut:


===

Question: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change 
a light bulb? Answer: 1,343


1-- to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light 
bulb has been changed;


14-- to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the 
light bulb could have been changed differently;


7-- to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs;

27-- to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light 
bulbs;


53-- to flame the spell checkers;

41-- to correct spelling/grammar flames;

6-- to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" and another 6 
to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive;


156-- to write to the list administrator about the light bulb discussion 
and its inappropriateness to this mail list;


109-- to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take 
this email exchange to litebulb-list;


203-- to demand that cross posting to grammar-l, spelling-l and 
illuminati-l about changing light bulbs be stopped;


111-- to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light 
bulbs and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this mail list;


306-- to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where 
to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for 
this technique and what brands are faulty;


27-- to post URL's where one can see examples of different lightbulbs;

14-- to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and the post the 
corrected URL's;


3-- to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to 
this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list;


33-- to link all posts to date, then quote them including all headers 
and footers and then add "Me too"


12-- to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot 
handle the light bulb controversy;


19-- to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three"

4-- to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ;

44-- to ask what is "FAQ"

4-- to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago on Usenet?"

143-- to ask "what's Usenet?"



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Jim Ault
I agree with Dan.  Don't have the time, or the background to go out a read
about all the other programming languages and company departments and come
to conclusions.  The civil, diverse Rev topics add to my view of the world,
which is quite microscopic and vertical.  They don't get in the way of the
tech content.

But then that's who I think I am at the moment.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 11/16/06 5:16 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the
> product. If this list were nothing but bugs,  hints, tips and tech trivia,
> it'd bore me to tears. It's not hard to filter out the stuff you don't want
> to listen to. I like the friendly banter and even some of the occasional
> confrontation that goes on around here, at least as long as it stays civil.
> 
> It's kind of like life. Avoiding discussing religion and politics makes for
> safer conversations but also for more boring ones. I think the key isn't
> subject matter, it's civil behavior.
> 
> But then that's me.
> 
> 
> On 11/16/06, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this
>> list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:
>> 
>> Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev
>> and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by relating all
>> the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or
>> berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes
>> your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is
>> that "anyone else" would do such a "way-out" thing and then starts to
>> goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war
>> 
>> Cool!
>> 
>> OR
>> 
>> Someone relates some  (usually fairly truthful) good news about
>> RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out
>> some defect.
>> 
>> 
>> Well lets all just make a deal?
>> 
>> No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling
>> 
>> How does that Sound???
>> 
>> Cheers all!
>> Dave
>> 
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> 
> 


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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Dan Shafer

Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the
product. If this list were nothing but bugs,  hints, tips and tech trivia,
it'd bore me to tears. It's not hard to filter out the stuff you don't want
to listen to. I like the friendly banter and even some of the occasional
confrontation that goes on around here, at least as long as it stays civil.

It's kind of like life. Avoiding discussing religion and politics makes for
safer conversations but also for more boring ones. I think the key isn't
subject matter, it's civil behavior.

But then that's me.


On 11/16/06, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,

I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this
list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:

Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev
and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by relating all
the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or
berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes
your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is
that "anyone else" would do such a "way-out" thing and then starts to
goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war

Cool!

OR

Someone relates some  (usually fairly truthful) good news about
RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out
some defect.


Well lets all just make a deal?

No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling

How does that Sound???

Cheers all!
Dave

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~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
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Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Luis



Cheers,

Luis.


On 17 Nov 2006, at 0:52, Dave wrote:


Hi,

I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on  
this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:


Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about  
RunRev and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by  
relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably  
already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating  
problems or criticizes your programming style or makes some comment  
about how unlikely it is that "anyone else" would do such a "way- 
out" thing and then starts to goad and really get on your nerves  
and then you get a flame-war


Cool!

OR

Someone relates some  (usually fairly truthful) good news about  
RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out  
some defect.



Well lets all just make a deal?

No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from  
falling


How does that Sound???

Cheers all!
Dave

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subscription preferences:

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Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!

2006-11-16 Thread Dave

Hi,

I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this  
list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this:


Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev  
and then someone else tries to make it "all right" by relating all  
the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or  
berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes  
your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is  
that "anyone else" would do such a "way-out" thing and then starts to  
goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war


Cool!

OR

Someone relates some  (usually fairly truthful) good news about  
RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out  
some defect.



Well lets all just make a deal?

No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling

How does that Sound???

Cheers all!
Dave

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preferences:
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