Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't ole in't ground -- Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted from our 'ole in't ground! You were lucky! When I were a lad, we only deamed of having a hole! /H ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
On 11/18/06 7:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't ole in't ground -- Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted from our 'ole in't ground! You were lucky! When I were a lad, we only deamed of having a hole! Yeah, and my dad said back then they were saving up so they could afford a hole someday, then have kids, so I guess they finally succeeded and ended up the hole. Jim Ault Las Vegas ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Dave said I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems [] Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you and me. I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4 years. Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put up claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge them. As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going to make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the company is in danger of going out of business because of this, I'm not going to let it go unchallenged. I also work with Lotus Notes every day, and I see more bugs in Notes on a daily basis (and that is as a user, not even as a Notes developer) than I do in Rev, and Notes is used by something like 200 million people worldwide. I wouldn't even say Notes was fundamentally buggy - it is a complex piece of software, and the bugs don't stop me from doing what I need to do. I've had OS X and XP crash on me numerous times, and actually lost work in the process - maybe that makes all software fundamentally buggy. What you're asking for is an end to discussion. You are asking to be able to make exagerrated claims (positive or negative), and for these claims to go unchallenged. I got involved in a debate with you precisely because you seem to have little hesitancy in making sweeping or false allegations (these are all from 10th Nov): There is definitely a problem with silly bugs and lack of a clear way of finding answers to problems it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev 'expert'. more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than the IDE. something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and make the IDE much more stable RunRev will stop growing and eventually die. I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over hauled. I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in personal crap. I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated and/or false. When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more about what is going on in that situation so that we could work together as a group to try to get that bug fixed. But it seems that you are more interested in complaining about bugs and running down Runrev than you are in solving them and promoting Rev. Having been challenged, you're now asking that no-one rain on your your parade. That's not a reasonable thing to ask for. Bernard ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
On 17 Nov 2006, at 08:35, Bernard Devlin wrote: Dave said I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems [] Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you and me. Slightly, it was mostly based an earlier flame-fest which was started in the Quality #1 issue thread I think. I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4 years. Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put up claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge them. As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going to make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the company is in danger of going out of business because of this, There are a lot of bugs in the RunRev Engine, the IDE and the documentation that have not been fixed in over three years and some of them are very low level and therefore fundamental to the system. I'm not going to let it go unchallenged. Does it make you feel better? What you're asking for is an end to discussion. I don't mind a discussion but lets keep it to the subject at hand and not resort to mud-slinging and low beahaviour. You are asking to be able to make exagerrated claims (positive or negative), and for these claims to go unchallenged. I don't make exagerrated claims. I don't care if they are challenged or not. I got involved in a debate with you precisely because you seem to have little hesitancy in making sweeping or false allegations (these are all from 10th Nov): There is definitely a problem with silly bugs and lack of a clear way of finding answers to problems it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev 'expert'. more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than the IDE. something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and make the IDE much more stable I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over hauled. All the above is true, and, it seems that RunRev think that way too since they are now making a bug-fix release. Hooray! RunRev will stop growing and eventually die. This is out of context, I think what I said was that if they didn't fix some of the old bugs and address the support pricing issue it would stop growing and eventually die, and I believe this to be true. However, no one can say 100% what will happen, so it's really not worth arguing about/discussing it. I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in personal crap. If you say so. I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated and/ or false. When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more about what is going on in that situation so that we could work together as a group to try to get that bug fixed. Everything that can be done as a 3rd party developer has been done on this bug, unless you can think of something else, but from your posts it doesn't seem like you can think of anything either. Apart from the reasons I mentioned in another post, I also wanted to see if it had been addressed in 2.7.x, it seems it hasn't. Given that this problem is fundamental to the whole system and given that it can take a very long time to track down and isolate, it would seem reasonable that at the very least the documentation be changed to include some kind of warning about the use of me and the sharedText property in fields. This could easily have been done in any of the releases since March, But it seems that you are more interested in complaining about bugs and running down Runrev than you are in solving them and promoting Rev. The point is that there are LOADS of bugs that have been logged for a LONG TIME without being fixed. Over and over we get a new release with all the same bugs present plus a lot of new problems. I just feel that there should be a bug-fix release, which is now going to happen. I could either do nothing or voice an opinion here. I've sold 4 (I think) RunRev Licenses in the past three years, If that's not promoting Rev then I don't know what is! I've come close to selling 4 or 5 more, but unfortunately the bugs I mentioned above (along with other factors I have already mentioned) prevented these sales. Having been challenged, Sorry I didn't realize I'd been challenged! Must have missed that bit! you're now asking that no-one rain on your your parade. That's not a reasonable thing to ask for.
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
gee what a horrible thread On Nov 17, 2006, at 11:28 AM, Dave wrote: On 17 Nov 2006, at 08:35, Bernard Devlin wrote: Dave said I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems [] Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling Obviously this in the context of the running dispute between you and me. Slightly, it was mostly based an earlier flame-fest which was started in the Quality #1 issue thread I think. I have followed this list almost every day for the past 4 years. Because I was not working with Rev every day, if people put up claims in the past (positive or negative), I would not challenge them. As I am working with Rev every day now, if someone is going to make claims that it Rev is fundamentally buggy and that the company is in danger of going out of business because of this, There are a lot of bugs in the RunRev Engine, the IDE and the documentation that have not been fixed in over three years and some of them are very low level and therefore fundamental to the system. I'm not going to let it go unchallenged. Does it make you feel better? What you're asking for is an end to discussion. I don't mind a discussion but lets keep it to the subject at hand and not resort to mud-slinging and low beahaviour. You are asking to be able to make exagerrated claims (positive or negative), and for these claims to go unchallenged. I don't make exagerrated claims. I don't care if they are challenged or not. I got involved in a debate with you precisely because you seem to have little hesitancy in making sweeping or false allegations (these are all from 10th Nov): There is definitely a problem with silly bugs and lack of a clear way of finding answers to problems it takes a long time (more than necessary) to become a RunRev 'expert'. more support effort is put into developing/fixing the Engine than the IDE. something needs to be done to address the backlog of bugs and make the IDE much more stable I really hope that some bugs get fixed soon and the IDE is over hauled. All the above is true, and, it seems that RunRev think that way too since they are now making a bug-fix release. Hooray! RunRev will stop growing and eventually die. This is out of context, I think what I said was that if they didn't fix some of the old bugs and address the support pricing issue it would stop growing and eventually die, and I believe this to be true. However, no one can say 100% what will happen, so it's really not worth arguing about/discussing it. I didn't berate you for your apathy nor indulge in personal crap. If you say so. I challenged your claims, because they seem to be exaggerated and/or false. When you actually listed one of the bugs that is a fundamental problem for you I tried to help you find out more about what is going on in that situation so that we could work together as a group to try to get that bug fixed. Everything that can be done as a 3rd party developer has been done on this bug, unless you can think of something else, but from your posts it doesn't seem like you can think of anything either. Apart from the reasons I mentioned in another post, I also wanted to see if it had been addressed in 2.7.x, it seems it hasn't. Given that this problem is fundamental to the whole system and given that it can take a very long time to track down and isolate, it would seem reasonable that at the very least the documentation be changed to include some kind of warning about the use of me and the sharedText property in fields. This could easily have been done in any of the releases since March, But it seems that you are more interested in complaining about bugs and running down Runrev than you are in solving them and promoting Rev. The point is that there are LOADS of bugs that have been logged for a LONG TIME without being fixed. Over and over we get a new release with all the same bugs present plus a lot of new problems. I just feel that there should be a bug-fix release, which is now going to happen. I could either do nothing or voice an opinion here. I've sold 4 (I think) RunRev Licenses in the past three years, If that's not promoting Rev then I don't know what is! I've come close to selling 4 or 5 more, but unfortunately the bugs I mentioned above (along with other factors I have already mentioned) prevented these sales. Having been challenged, Sorry I didn't realize I'd been challenged! Must have missed that bit! you're now asking that
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Jacqueline, You owe me a new keyboard now, you made me spit my coffee up onto the keyboard! LOL great one and perfect for the moment! cheers, jeff Jeffrey Reynolds On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Jacqueline wrote: Question: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 1,343 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Dan- Thursday, November 16, 2006, 5:16:48 PM, you wrote: Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the product. If this list were nothing but bugs, hints, tips and tech trivia, Maybe it's me, but I thought that's what Dave was saying... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Andre- Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote: gee what a horrible thread Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Mark, my definition of horrible is like this: when you go to an airport and the ATC personal are on strike asking for more humane conditions for work, it appears that earning more than 10 times the minimum wage is not enough, then you loose all your connections, you hop from plane to plane, airport to airport, connecting as if your flight plan was devised by some fractal expert and when you finally arrive at your destination, all tired, needing a shave and a bath so that you can keep calling yourself human, you notice after two hours that your luggage is not appearing in the carrousel, you go ask the clerk if by any chance your lugagge is there, and the clerk answers: sir, by any chance, you connected thru amundsen base in antartica?... After recovering from the shock, you keep washing your only pair of clothes day after day and maybe a week later your luggage arrives with stamps for so many countries that the U.N. should promote it to ambassador or good will agent. When you finally open your luggage, you discover that you forgot your set of underpants at your home. that is a horrible situation, add snow if you like it. andre On Friday, November 17, 2006, at 06:26AM, Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andre- Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote: gee what a horrible thread Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
On 17 Nov 2006, at 18:25, Mark Wieder wrote: Andre- Friday, November 17, 2006, 3:31:37 AM, you wrote: gee what a horrible thread Whaddya mean horrible? Kids these days... in the old days we had horrible and we liked it. Uphill both ways. In the snow... Yeah Lad, but we had it rough, lived in't ole in't ground -- Neah Lad, that's nothing, we were evicted from our 'ole in't ground! Take Care Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
On 17 Nov 2006, at 19:24, Andre Garzia wrote: Mark, my definition of horrible is like this: when you go to an airport and the ATC personal are on strike asking for more humane conditions for work, it appears that earning more than 10 times the minimum wage is not enough, then you loose all your connections, you hop from plane to plane, airport to airport, connecting as if your flight plan was devised by some fractal expert and when you finally arrive at your destination, all tired, needing a shave and a bath so that you can keep calling yourself human, you notice after two hours that your luggage is not appearing in the carrousel, you go ask the clerk if by any chance your lugagge is there, and the clerk answers: sir, by any chance, you connected thru amundsen base in antartica?... After recovering from the shock, you keep washing your only pair of clothes day after day and maybe a week later your luggage arrives with stamps for so many countries that the U.N. should promote it to ambassador or good will agent. When you finally open your luggage, you discover that you forgot your set of underpants at your home. that is a horrible situation, add snow if you like it. andre Oh you went on that package too! I thought I had it bad All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
looks out of the window Cheers, Luis. On 17 Nov 2006, at 0:52, Dave wrote: Hi, I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is that anyone else would do such a way- out thing and then starts to goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war Cool! OR Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) good news about RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out some defect. Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling How does that Sound??? Cheers all! Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the product. If this list were nothing but bugs, hints, tips and tech trivia, it'd bore me to tears. It's not hard to filter out the stuff you don't want to listen to. I like the friendly banter and even some of the occasional confrontation that goes on around here, at least as long as it stays civil. It's kind of like life. Avoiding discussing religion and politics makes for safer conversations but also for more boring ones. I think the key isn't subject matter, it's civil behavior. But then that's me. On 11/16/06, Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is that anyone else would do such a way-out thing and then starts to goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war Cool! OR Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) good news about RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out some defect. Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling How does that Sound??? Cheers all! Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with Dan. Don't have the time, or the background to go out a read about all the other programming languages and company departments and come to conclusions. The civil, diverse Rev topics add to my view of the world, which is quite microscopic and vertical. They don't get in the way of the tech content. But then that's who I think I am at the moment. Jim Ault Las Vegas On 11/16/06 5:16 PM, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Naw, I like it when people talk about what's good and not-so-good about the product. If this list were nothing but bugs, hints, tips and tech trivia, it'd bore me to tears. It's not hard to filter out the stuff you don't want to listen to. I like the friendly banter and even some of the occasional confrontation that goes on around here, at least as long as it stays civil. It's kind of like life. Avoiding discussing religion and politics makes for safer conversations but also for more boring ones. I think the key isn't subject matter, it's civil behavior. But then that's me. On 11/16/06, Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) bad news about RunRev and then someone else tries to make it all right by relating all the good things about RunRev (that you invariably already know) or berates your apparent apathy in investigating problems or criticizes your programming style or makes some comment about how unlikely it is that anyone else would do such a way-out thing and then starts to goad and really get on your nerves and then you get a flame-war Cool! OR Someone relates some (usually fairly truthful) good news about RunRev and then someone seek to weaken the effect by pointing out some defect. Well lets all just make a deal? No one rain on the parade and no one stop the rain from falling How does that Sound??? Cheers all! Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
Dave wrote: Hi, I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the opportunity to post this old chestnut: === Question: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 1,343 1-- to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed; 14-- to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently; 7-- to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs; 27-- to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs; 53-- to flame the spell checkers; 41-- to correct spelling/grammar flames; 6-- to argue over whether it's lightbulb or light bulb and another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive; 156-- to write to the list administrator about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list; 109-- to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to litebulb-list; 203-- to demand that cross posting to grammar-l, spelling-l and illuminati-l about changing light bulbs be stopped; 111-- to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this mail list; 306-- to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty; 27-- to post URL's where one can see examples of different lightbulbs; 14-- to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and the post the corrected URL's; 3-- to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list; 33-- to link all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers and then add Me too 12-- to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy; 19-- to quote the Me too's to say Me three 4-- to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ; 44-- to ask what is FAQ 4-- to say didn't we go through this already a short time ago on Usenet? 143-- to ask what's Usenet? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
On 11/16/06 8:24 PM, J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave wrote: Hi, I think that there is a lot of silly, sometimes personal crap on this list on the odd occasion and I reckon it boils down to this: I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the opportunity to post this old chestnut: LOL! That's great, Jacque! Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software, Inc. Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Lets make a deal!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's just the nature of mailing lists, and trying to stop it is a little like trying to stop the tide. But it does give me the opportunity to post this old chestnut: ROFL!! That's excellent. I've not stumbled on this one before. I moderate three Usenet big 8 groups. These groups have alt.* competitors. the alt.* competitors get more posts because the moderated groups don't allow flames or name calling. I'm going to share this little gem with some of my fellow moderators. It'll knock them over. Thanks for posting it, Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
