Re: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
I downloaded an OS X utility (chmox) that can open Windows-only help files (.chm) files. So now I can read the documentation you linked to. You say you can use this FM documentation in a browser, but surely that is only on Windows? Or does FM on OS X install something that enables you to view it in Safari? It's not clear me why you think that FM help is better than the documentation that comes with Revolution. Maybe the OS X utility does not render the chm file the way you see it on Windows, so I could be missing something. Revolution has: a) the User Guide in PDF and hard copy formats b) the Dictionary for reference purposes (also in hard copy format) c) the introductory and tutorial material in the Resource Center (which have downloadable stacks, demo vidoes, and the tutorial can be viewed in PDF format). The FM help documentation seems to me to offer only 1 thing that the Rev docs don't: everything is in one place and can be reached by drilling-down using the disclosure triangles. I can see why someone might think that is useful, as there is only one place to look. But it could also be a hinderance once one no longer needs the bulk of that material, but one still has to d But as far as a new user learning what a tool is all about, I think the RunRev way is better: i) a simple book that takes one on a tour of the environment and the paradigm behind Revolution ii) individual tutorials that include the material necessary to complete each tutorial, AND a video The Rev User Guide and tutorials are far more visiual than the FM help. I'm surprised to look through that .chm file and see how un-visual it is. And once one is past the learning stage, then as a user the Reference component of the FM help would also really annoy me and get in my way. Rev's dictionary is separate from the rest of the help because once one is over the initial learning stage, one needs it to be ready to hand but not obstructive. Also, when one bears in mind that Rev is a tool with which one could actually build something like FM, one might expect that the documentation for FM would be easier to write. FM has a much more delimited field of operation: the tutorial material can be focussed on a smaller area and can be exhaustive. Please tell me why you think there is something for RunRev to learn from the way FM has done it. Is it just that having the User Guide, the tutorials/videos, and the Dictionary in different places is the problem? Maybe there are other components to the FM documentation that would cover some of the failings I've mentioned. Bernard On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:21 PM, William Moseid wrote: > The D/L link is a compressed Help File (fmpro_help) that one can use in a > browser. What Help? Well, in this case it is Filemaker. The reason for > including it > is to illustrate a reasonable approach for new to expert Revolution developers > as another way to present Help for Revolution. > > This is a compiled html file visable in a browser: > http://www.fmpsolutions.com/fmpro_help.zip ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
Adrian Williams wrote: Dans' book, great though it is as a primer, is not as accessible as many 'QuickStart' guidebooks available these days. I wouldn't expect too much from a "Quick Start Guide to Piloting the Space Shuttle." Complicated topics are hard condense down into a "Quick Start." As I think Jim mentioned, authors have to write to an audience. I don't think it's possible to write a book that can be useful to a rank beginner AND a programming professional. They are different audiences with different needs and have to be "spoken" to in different ways. What would be cool would be some sort of online documentation resource that had an "I Get It" scrollbar that would show or hide more or less detail depending on whether it's on the "Beginner" or "Expert" end. While were at it, we could have platform buttons so if you only really cared about Windows, you wouldn't see OS X and Linux examples (where they are different). There might be an indication that there ARE other things available there (or not) but you wouldn't have to look at it if you didn't want to. I'll probably start working on such a program since now that I think about it, it's a pretty cool idea. The hard part of course is creating and maintaining the content. I'll do the "easy" part of creating the program and then we can all pitch in and create content. len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
The D/L link is a compressed Help File (fmpro_help) that one can use in a browser. What Help? Well, in this case it is Filemaker. The reason for including it is to illustrate a reasonable approach for new to expert Revolution developers as another way to present Help for Revolution. This is a compiled html file visable in a browser: http://www.fmpsolutions.com/fmpro_help.zip Best, William William Roger Moseid 64 Glenalmond Lane Ladera Ranch, CA 92694 Model Masters b...@fmpsolutions.com sa...@fmpsolutions.com modelmast...@fmpsolutions.com modelmaste...@cox.net 951-970-6271 (Cell) 206-497-2575 (MagicJack - Internet Phone) Best, William William Roger Moseid 64 Glenalmond Lane Ladera Ranch, CA 92694 Model Masters b...@fmpsolutions.com sa...@fmpsolutions.com modelmast...@fmpsolutions.com modelmaste...@cox.net 951-970-6271 (Cell) 206-497-2575 (MagicJack - Internet Phone) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4385 (20090831) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
Adrian Williams wrote: > Len, > > Your observations are correct and I already have Dan's "Software at > the Speed of thought". > It's just that I'm an occasional user of Rev; I don't use it anywhere > near full-time. > Not coming from a HyperCard background does not prepare one for Rev's > principles. > If there are different ways to achieve the same thing, then let's have > some cross-referenced examples. > I've seen talk of a 'cookbook' on this list. Perhaps it is time for > someone to captalise on that? > > Like the Internet, when something is too flexible, it's a job to know > where to start. > Three ways to accomplish a few commonly used tasks may be enough to > introduce novices the various processes. > Three ways to "Launch an application" > Three ways to "Track the path to a file" > Three ways to... > > Dans' book, great though it is as a primer, is not as accessible as > many 'QuickStart' guidebooks available these days. > Peachpit Press > (http://www.peachpit.com/imprint/series_detail.aspx?ser=335245 > ) does a good job on many topics such as Java for example. > HyperCarders must be fewer and fewer as time goes by, so something > like that would make Rev far more accessible to newbies. > That's my two-penneth for what its worth. As it's Bank Holiday, I'm > off to fire up the BBQ. > > All the best, > Adrian > __ > Club Type > http://www.clubtype.co.uk > > > > > On 31 Aug 2009, at 13:05, Len Morgan wrote: > > > > > > > Adrian Williams wrote: > >> > >> IMHO in the doc for 'launch', right underneath 'Examples', an > >> additional 'Example in use' would be helpful. > >> Jim's snippet with its comments puts one of the example statements > >> into some context... > >> > >> put the defaultFolder into tOrigDefaultFolder > >> set the defaultFolder to "C:\theDirTheExeIsIn" -- Put actual dir > >> the exe is in here > >> launch "MyProgram.exe" -- Put the actual name of the exe here > >> set the defaultFolder to tOrigDefaultFolder -- Puts the > >> defaultFolder back where it was > >> > > The problem with the above explanation that the defaultFolder lines > > have absolutely nothing to do with the launch command. You could > > have just as easily wanted to launch an app that is relative to a > > URL which would take > > another set of "chunk" explanations that again are totally different > > and totally unrelated to the launch command. To write such all > > inclusive documentation for every command would be a daunting task > > and so verbose that it goes too far the other direction (i.e., so > > much to read that no one would read any of it). > > > > It's a fine line that the documentation writers have to walk. In > > the future, be sure to look at all the "See Also" entries in the > > dictionary and read the WHOLE command description. The See Alsos > > can often point you in the right direction but also, at least in my > > case, lead me to learn things I hadn't even thought about before so > > I end up learning a lot more than if I'd had Scott's example laid > > out in front of me, took it verbatim, and left. > > > > You are suffering from the same problem I know I had and I'm sure a > > lot of others had: The lack of a good tutorial book on Revolution to > > get you over the "hump" when you're new to the language. It's my > > impression that a large percentage of the current Rev users came > > from a HyperCard (or one of it's derivatives) background and so > > they've already been over that "hump." The simple terse Rev > > dictionary format is just fine for them. I remember when I started > > (from a C/Tcl/Assembly background of MANY years) I couldn't even > > figure out where to start. The whole concept of passing messages > > and calling handlers it totally different that the in-line code > > you'd write in C or Tcl. Once I made that mental leap, things just > > started falling into place. I still had questions that the > > documentation didn't answer by that's where this mailing list came > > in. There was always somebody that could quickly fill in the > > "whole" in my knowledge. > > > > I believe you can still get Dan Shaefer's (spelling?) book "Software > > at the Speed of Thought" which was written around Rev 2.1 I think > > but it was very helpful in getting me over a lot of the rough spots > > that the dictionary and user's manual didn't cover (and shouldn't > > have). There are also a couple of HyperCard/Talk books by Danny > > Goodman that several people here have recommended. I bought them > > but haven't really read them so I can't vouch for how helpful they'd > > be to you. > > > > You do have a chance to help out humanity though (well, at least the > > part of humanity that is struggling to learn Revolution): the user > > comments at the bottom of the dictionary. They are there for just > > the same kind of problem you were having, in other words, not quite > > enough meat around the bone to make it clear. If you feel that > > something might need
Re: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
I have to say, I think the Revolution documentation is pretty good. Obviously there are many things available in Rev that one forgets if one is not using Rev almost every day. However, whenever I return to using Rev after some weeks away from it, I find that I never spend more than a couple of minutes searching through the dictionary to find what I want. The Dictionary is an extraordinary device for me - it offers complete information, but does so without making me wade through lots of stuff I don't want. People have produced versions of the Dictionary that perform faster or take up less screen space, and they have been welcome additions (although these days I mostly just stick with the ordinary Dictionary). I came from a non-Hypercard background, and when I first started to learn Rev there was only the documentation stacks that come with Rev (there is more now - the User Guide, and the videos). I felt I was really missing something so I bought some hypercard books and they helped a lot. I bought the two volumes of the Danny Goodman book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-HyperCard-2-2-Handbook/dp/0679791221/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251725810&sr=8-3), for about the price it is being sold for on Amazon. I also bought Jeanne Devoto's book on Hyperscript. I don't have the Goodman book any more (I gave it to a friend who I introduced to Rev). And I think that it was the Hyperscript book that was more helpful, but that book doesn't even seem to be available on amazon at all. The Goodman book provided a general overview of the Hypercard/Message path, but once I'd got on top of that, then I found myself referring to the Hyperscript book more. Of course, since those books are quite old and for a very similar but also slightly different tool to Rev, there are some places where they would be misleading to new user to Rev. Does the PDF of the User Guide that comes with Rev not help? I would think that that would serve as a good general introduction/orientation to new users or infrequent users. There are times when I might have been away from Rev for some months, and I would find myself turning to the User Guide in order to remind myself of something (usually to do with custom properties/custom property sets!) The 'cookbook' existed with the Rev documentation from about version 1.1.1 to about 2.7. It wasn't really a list of the many alternative ways to do things, so much as single examples answering questions of the 'how would I do...' variety. I'm not sure it would really benefit new users to have a cookbook that showed several of the many different ways to do things. But maybe the old cookbook ought to be revived. If only because the idea of such easy recipes' shows what can be achieved in Rev. One of the friends I introduced to Rev stopped using after a few months, because she couldn't see how to make any use of it. She ended up choosing Filemaker instead - it seemed that the fact that Filemaker was a more limited/more specific framework for development suited her better. Bernard On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Adrian Williams wrote: > Not coming from a HyperCard background does not prepare one for Rev's > principles. > If there are different ways to achieve the same thing, then let's have some > cross-referenced examples. > I've seen talk of a 'cookbook' on this list. Perhaps it is time for someone > to captalise on that? > > Like the Internet, when something is too flexible, it's a job to know where > to start. > Three ways to accomplish a few commonly used tasks may be enough to > introduce novices the various processes. > Three ways to "Launch an application" > Three ways to "Track the path to a file" > Three ways to... > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
I suspect the easy availability of something like this is what will make or break the wider acceptance of RevMedia. Ian On 31 Aug 2009, at 14:25, Adrian Williams wrote: I've seen talk of a 'cookbook' on this list. Perhaps it is time for someone to captalise on that? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
Len, Your observations are correct and I already have Dan's "Software at the Speed of thought". It's just that I'm an occasional user of Rev; I don't use it anywhere near full-time. Not coming from a HyperCard background does not prepare one for Rev's principles. If there are different ways to achieve the same thing, then let's have some cross-referenced examples. I've seen talk of a 'cookbook' on this list. Perhaps it is time for someone to captalise on that? Like the Internet, when something is too flexible, it's a job to know where to start. Three ways to accomplish a few commonly used tasks may be enough to introduce novices the various processes. Three ways to "Launch an application" Three ways to "Track the path to a file" Three ways to... Dans' book, great though it is as a primer, is not as accessible as many 'QuickStart' guidebooks available these days. Peachpit Press (http://www.peachpit.com/imprint/series_detail.aspx?ser=335245 ) does a good job on many topics such as Java for example. HyperCarders must be fewer and fewer as time goes by, so something like that would make Rev far more accessible to newbies. That's my two-penneth for what its worth. As it's Bank Holiday, I'm off to fire up the BBQ. All the best, Adrian __ Club Type http://www.clubtype.co.uk On 31 Aug 2009, at 13:05, Len Morgan wrote: Adrian Williams wrote: IMHO in the doc for 'launch', right underneath 'Examples', an additional 'Example in use' would be helpful. Jim's snippet with its comments puts one of the example statements into some context... put the defaultFolder into tOrigDefaultFolder set the defaultFolder to "C:\theDirTheExeIsIn" -- Put actual dir the exe is in here launch "MyProgram.exe" -- Put the actual name of the exe here set the defaultFolder to tOrigDefaultFolder -- Puts the defaultFolder back where it was The problem with the above explanation that the defaultFolder lines have absolutely nothing to do with the launch command. You could have just as easily wanted to launch an app that is relative to a URL which would take another set of "chunk" explanations that again are totally different and totally unrelated to the launch command. To write such all inclusive documentation for every command would be a daunting task and so verbose that it goes too far the other direction (i.e., so much to read that no one would read any of it). It's a fine line that the documentation writers have to walk. In the future, be sure to look at all the "See Also" entries in the dictionary and read the WHOLE command description. The See Alsos can often point you in the right direction but also, at least in my case, lead me to learn things I hadn't even thought about before so I end up learning a lot more than if I'd had Scott's example laid out in front of me, took it verbatim, and left. You are suffering from the same problem I know I had and I'm sure a lot of others had: The lack of a good tutorial book on Revolution to get you over the "hump" when you're new to the language. It's my impression that a large percentage of the current Rev users came from a HyperCard (or one of it's derivatives) background and so they've already been over that "hump." The simple terse Rev dictionary format is just fine for them. I remember when I started (from a C/Tcl/Assembly background of MANY years) I couldn't even figure out where to start. The whole concept of passing messages and calling handlers it totally different that the in-line code you'd write in C or Tcl. Once I made that mental leap, things just started falling into place. I still had questions that the documentation didn't answer by that's where this mailing list came in. There was always somebody that could quickly fill in the "whole" in my knowledge. I believe you can still get Dan Shaefer's (spelling?) book "Software at the Speed of Thought" which was written around Rev 2.1 I think but it was very helpful in getting me over a lot of the rough spots that the dictionary and user's manual didn't cover (and shouldn't have). There are also a couple of HyperCard/Talk books by Danny Goodman that several people here have recommended. I bought them but haven't really read them so I can't vouch for how helpful they'd be to you. You do have a chance to help out humanity though (well, at least the part of humanity that is struggling to learn Revolution): the user comments at the bottom of the dictionary. They are there for just the same kind of problem you were having, in other words, not quite enough meat around the bone to make it clear. If you feel that something might need more (or better) explaination, add a user comment to enlighten the rest of us. If we all contribute a little here and little there, we should end up with a first class reference that everyone will benefit from. len ___
Rev Documentation [WAS: Launch another app from my standalone]
Adrian Williams wrote: IMHO in the doc for 'launch', right underneath 'Examples', an additional 'Example in use' would be helpful. Jim's snippet with its comments puts one of the example statements into some context... put the defaultFolder into tOrigDefaultFolder set the defaultFolder to "C:\theDirTheExeIsIn" -- Put actual dir the exe is in here launch "MyProgram.exe" -- Put the actual name of the exe here set the defaultFolder to tOrigDefaultFolder -- Puts the defaultFolder back where it was The problem with the above explanation that the defaultFolder lines have absolutely nothing to do with the launch command. You could have just as easily wanted to launch an app that is relative to a URL which would take another set of "chunk" explanations that again are totally different and totally unrelated to the launch command. To write such all inclusive documentation for every command would be a daunting task and so verbose that it goes too far the other direction (i.e., so much to read that no one would read any of it). It's a fine line that the documentation writers have to walk. In the future, be sure to look at all the "See Also" entries in the dictionary and read the WHOLE command description. The See Alsos can often point you in the right direction but also, at least in my case, lead me to learn things I hadn't even thought about before so I end up learning a lot more than if I'd had Scott's example laid out in front of me, took it verbatim, and left. You are suffering from the same problem I know I had and I'm sure a lot of others had: The lack of a good tutorial book on Revolution to get you over the "hump" when you're new to the language. It's my impression that a large percentage of the current Rev users came from a HyperCard (or one of it's derivatives) background and so they've already been over that "hump." The simple terse Rev dictionary format is just fine for them. I remember when I started (from a C/Tcl/Assembly background of MANY years) I couldn't even figure out where to start. The whole concept of passing messages and calling handlers it totally different that the in-line code you'd write in C or Tcl. Once I made that mental leap, things just started falling into place. I still had questions that the documentation didn't answer by that's where this mailing list came in. There was always somebody that could quickly fill in the "whole" in my knowledge. I believe you can still get Dan Shaefer's (spelling?) book "Software at the Speed of Thought" which was written around Rev 2.1 I think but it was very helpful in getting me over a lot of the rough spots that the dictionary and user's manual didn't cover (and shouldn't have). There are also a couple of HyperCard/Talk books by Danny Goodman that several people here have recommended. I bought them but haven't really read them so I can't vouch for how helpful they'd be to you. You do have a chance to help out humanity though (well, at least the part of humanity that is struggling to learn Revolution): the user comments at the bottom of the dictionary. They are there for just the same kind of problem you were having, in other words, not quite enough meat around the bone to make it clear. If you feel that something might need more (or better) explaination, add a user comment to enlighten the rest of us. If we all contribute a little here and little there, we should end up with a first class reference that everyone will benefit from. len ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
