Re: Who owns old icons?
Thanks, Richard, Kay Mark (not in any particular order other than my late-night, brain-addled one)! I forget now what I was going to say... u Oh, yeah, the icons. Yeah, they're old, 1-bit, whatever... But they're still WAYYY COOOL in some cases! Newer ain't always better... I can't tell you how many times I've reached out for the beautiful simplicity of the stack icon, or the speaker icon, the arrows... etc. Sheer simplistic beauty. I LOVED that screen with all of the miniature graphics. I still keep around an old OS9 egg-shaped original iMac just for that purpose! (well, okay, that and running the FLYINGCOLORS kidpix-on-steroids app that's only OS9). Apple didn't hire an artist who specialized in miniaturization for nothing! 24-bit new crap is still crap... Judy On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In spite of any statements from Apple Europe, the last official public statement from any authorized representative from Apple's heaquarters in Cupertino was: There have been some rumors about us canceling HyperCard, which are totally bu||sh*t. - Steve Jobs, October 1998, CAUSE Conference You can enjoy an audio clip of that here: http://www.ihug.org/ AFAIK, no public statement to the contrary has ever been issued from Apple's main office. But no matter how much fun we may have with Jobs' quote, the current status of a product's availability has no bearing at all on its copyright protection. Before I continue, California state law requires me to include this disclaimer: I am not an attorney. If you need an attorney you should consult the services of a qualified professional in your area. With that out of the way, here's the dope: Works created on or after January 1, 1978 The following rules apply to published and unpublished works: * For one author, the work is copyright-protected for the life of the author plus 70 years. * For joint authors, the work is protected for the life of the surviving author plus 70 years. * For works made for hire, the work is protected for 95 years from the first publication or 120 years from the date of its creation, whichever is less. http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/D0C278CD-7D19-4EAD-B5E2124009D20220/catId/2EB060FE-5A4B-4D81-883B0E540CC4CB1E/310/276/136/CHK/ To the best of my knowledge, under both US law and the Berne Convention (which now has 163 signing nations) copyright is granted to the creator of a work regardless whether the work is ever even published at all, and remains in effect similarly without regard for continued publication or any public availability of any kind. You can create an image, sell it for one day, and then discontinue sales forever after and your copyright on any copies of that image you sold that day will still remain in effect for as long as you live plus 70 years. In brief, the creator of a work defines how the work is used. If you don't like the terms granted by the creator your only legal options are to wait a very long time, or simply to create your own original work and define its terms however you like. With HyperCard this would seem a minor issue, since in addition to being owned by someone else its icons are low-res, 1-bit, and in general rather dated. In the 12 years since HyperCard was last updated the rest of the world has continued to move forward, and today you can find thousands of free full-color icons all over the web: http://images.google.com/images?q=free+icons -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
Unless Apple, Inc. has put all of HyperCard into the public domain, the HyperCard icons are still owned by Apple, Inc. According to www.wikipedia.org: The Copyright Term Extension Act (CTEA) of 1998 – alternatively known as the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, Sonny Bono Act, or pejoratively as the Mickey Mouse Protection Act – extended copyright terms in the United States by 20 years. Before the Act (under the Copyright Act of 1976), copyright would last for the life of the author plus 50 years, or 75 years for a work of corporate authorship; the Act extended these terms to life of the author plus 70 years and for works of corporate authorship to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever endpoint is earlier.[1] The Act also affected copyright terms for copyrighted works published prior to January 1, 1978, also increasing their term of protection by 20 years, to a total of 95 years from publication. Unless you can either confirm that Apple, Inc. has put HyperCard into the public domain, or you have obtained permission from the Apple, Inc. legal department, you cannot do what you want with those icons. Yes, I know it seems terrible, but if you were Apple, Inc. I'm sure you would want to protect your under used icons too. After all Apple might want to consider using them for some different application in the future. wikipedia.org has a lot more information about copyright, and I suggest that anyone who is interested to check it out. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Who owns old icons?
Rick Harrison wrote: Unless Apple, Inc. has put all of HyperCard into the public domain, the HyperCard icons are still owned by Apple, Inc. which seems pretty clear and unequivocal. However, old icons are a bit like my face: I own my face, and were somebody to mysteriously remove it and graft it on to another person they would have stolen it. However, journalists and others photograph people's faces and publish them everywhere without so much as a backward glance; and they cannot be said to have stolen people's faces, or even their likenesses. Now, were I to post the HyperCard application, or, say, a ResEdit document containing Hypercard icons on a website and/or user group I would have stolen the icons. However, were I to post (as, indeed I have done) photographs (i.e. screenshots) of HyperCard icons; this would be similar to an individual publishing a photograph of me s/he took. Of course if it were of me, say, in my bath with a plastic duck,I might feel fairly cheesed-off, and that it were an invasion of privacy. Apple have never hid their HyperCard icons in the bathroom (they have flashed them around like nobody's business), and the 'photographs' of them published on my Yahoo Group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RsHYPERCARD are not with plastic ducks; in fact no 'value judgements' are attached to them at all. Not the same situations, at all! sincerely, Richmond Mathewson. A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle. __ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
Despite discussions to the contrary, at least according to this article in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware, abandonware is still protected by copyright, regardless of a copyright holder's lack of enforcement. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Who owns old icons?
I am startling unoriginal: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg00420.html A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle. __ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Who owns old icons?
Images as follows: http://www.granneman.com/images/mac_icons_1984.gif http://homepage.mac.com/chinesemac/earlymacs/ http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.05/05.10/DotPrinter/img003.gif http://www.geocities.jp/classiclll/images2/icon_low.gif This discussion is rapidly reaching its natural end. sincerely, Richmond Mathewson. A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle. __ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
Richmond Mathewson wrote: Rick Harrison wrote: Unless Apple, Inc. has put all of HyperCard into the public domain, the HyperCard icons are still owned by Apple, Inc. which seems pretty clear and unequivocal. However, old icons are a bit like my face: I own my face, and were somebody to mysteriously remove it and graft it on to another person they would have stolen it. However, journalists and others photograph people's faces and publish them everywhere without so much as a backward glance; and they cannot be said to have stolen people's faces, or even their likenesses. You did not create your face. In the US, your image in public places is considered pubic domain, and can be photographed by anyone without requiring consent. Photos of your face taken in private places will require your consent, or may be considered an invasion of privacy. But it's the privacy at play with faces, not copyright (at least not in the US; YMMV); you did not create your face, and copyright is generally limited to the domain of created works. Now, were I to post the HyperCard application, or, say, a ResEdit document containing Hypercard icons on a website and/or user group I would have stolen the icons. However, were I to post (as, indeed I have done) photographs (i.e. screenshots) of HyperCard icons; this would be similar to an individual publishing a photograph of me s/he took. Actually, photographs of paintings are covered by the copyright of the painting being photographed. There may be exceptions for incidental use (e.g., a painting in the far background of a photograph of a gallery), but the rules for incidental use are vague and the copyright holder can elect to have them tested in court. Pixel-for-pixel copies of a work, even if saved in a different format, have been tested by the court and found to be under the protection of the copyright holder of the original work. In some cases even modest deviance from the original may still be protected, unless the defendant can demonstrate that their work was indeed original and similarity is purely coincidental. Oddly enough, fonts are a specific exclusion to this protection, having been defined by the courts as purely utilitarian and therefore unprotectable by copyright (given the artfulness required for font design I disagree with this ruling, but the courts rarely consult me when making judgments). The underlying code of vector fonts can be protected as software instructions, but the actual rendered image of the glyphs themselves are not protected (hence the knock-off industry). Screenshots which include copyrighted images may fall under incidental use, but as I noted such usage is vaguely defined and may be tested at the copyright holder's election. This discussion is rapidly reaching its natural end. Yes, all citations of governing law have demonstrated that distribution of pixel-perfect copies of an entire collection Apple's icons represents a violation of their copyright. If this seems unclear the best test of course is to verify this with Apple. I'm not an attorney, and I haven't seen any of the attorneys on this list offer their opinions, so while no one here can be of assistance the original copyright holder is the one who can best answer your question. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Who owns old icons?
However, were I to post (as, indeed I have done) photographs (i.e. screenshots) of HyperCard icons; this would be similar to an individual publishing a photograph of me s/he took. Actually, photographs of paintings are covered by the copyright of the painting being photographed. There may be exceptions for incidental use (e.g., a painting in the far background of a photograph of a gallery), but the rules for incidental use are vague and the copyright holder can elect to have them tested in court. I believe this was settled as well because of a case with Corel trying to copyright pictures of famous paintings. Oddly enough, fonts are a specific exclusion to this protection, having been defined by the courts as purely utilitarian and therefore unprotectable by copyright (given the artfulness required for font design I disagree with this ruling, but the courts rarely consult me when making judgments). The underlying code of vector fonts can be protected as software instructions, but the actual rendered image of the glyphs themselves are not protected (hence the knock-off industry). This can really vary, country to country - even with the Berne Convention. Apple ran into trouble years ago with Japanese fonts, because fonts in Japan, at least at the time, were covered under Japanese copyright law (font houses claiming to have had exclusive rights to the fonts for hundreds of years). Of course, creating a font with 2000 characters in it is no small task ;-) One company effectively did that for postscript fonts and it was very, very expensive to get fonts that worked at a high quality print resolution. Apple either licensed or created some very nice Japanese TrueType fonts though - not perfect by any means for digital printing at the time, but certainly good enough for word processing. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Mirye Software Publishing http://www.mirye.com Mirye Community NING http://miryesoftware.ning.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
I've been reading this conversation, and have to throw a few points of clarification out there. First off, Fonts and dingbats both are copyrighted by the person that created them. Typefaces on the other hand, are not covered by copyright. However the US hasn't yet made a legal decision on if a font is a typeface yet (go figure). But ask any publishing house, and they will tell you they make sure to have licenses for any typeface they use that isn't in the public domain. Next, the Corel vs Bridgeman Art Library case says that if the 2d object (such as a painting) is in the public domain due to its age, the owner of the object cannot claim copyright on its image. You can take a picture of that object, and do whatever you personally want to do with it and keep the copyright of that image. However, this law has not been tested on anything 3d (such as a statue), and doesn't apply to everywhere (US is the main application of this law) Almost last, the idea of changing the item so copyright doesn't apply. The owner of the original copyright also owns all derivative works from that copyright. So you cannot take someones icons, change them slightly, and claim they are yours now. And finally Last. Taking a screenshot of an icon, in no way gives you a right to distribute that property. The original icon still has copyright on it, you are not allowed to claim copyright on a picture or a screenshot of that item. Just a few things to throw out there :) - Noel At 12:18 PM 8/4/2008, you wrote: Richmond Mathewson wrote: Rick Harrison wrote: Unless Apple, Inc. has put all of HyperCard into the public domain, the HyperCard icons are still owned by Apple, Inc. which seems pretty clear and unequivocal. However, old icons are a bit like my face: I own my face, and were somebody to mysteriously remove it and graft it on to another person they would have stolen it. However, journalists and others photograph people's faces and publish them everywhere without so much as a backward glance; and they cannot be said to have stolen people's faces, or even their likenesses. You did not create your face. In the US, your image in public places is considered pubic domain, and can be photographed by anyone without requiring consent. Photos of your face taken in private places will require your consent, or may be considered an invasion of privacy. But it's the privacy at play with faces, not copyright (at least not in the US; YMMV); you did not create your face, and copyright is generally limited to the domain of created works. Now, were I to post the HyperCard application, or, say, a ResEdit document containing Hypercard icons on a website and/or user group I would have stolen the icons. However, were I to post (as, indeed I have done) photographs (i.e. screenshots) of HyperCard icons; this would be similar to an individual publishing a photograph of me s/he took. Actually, photographs of paintings are covered by the copyright of the painting being photographed. There may be exceptions for incidental use (e.g., a painting in the far background of a photograph of a gallery), but the rules for incidental use are vague and the copyright holder can elect to have them tested in court. Pixel-for-pixel copies of a work, even if saved in a different format, have been tested by the court and found to be under the protection of the copyright holder of the original work. In some cases even modest deviance from the original may still be protected, unless the defendant can demonstrate that their work was indeed original and similarity is purely coincidental. Oddly enough, fonts are a specific exclusion to this protection, having been defined by the courts as purely utilitarian and therefore unprotectable by copyright (given the artfulness required for font design I disagree with this ruling, but the courts rarely consult me when making judgments). The underlying code of vector fonts can be protected as software instructions, but the actual rendered image of the glyphs themselves are not protected (hence the knock-off industry). Screenshots which include copyrighted images may fall under incidental use, but as I noted such usage is vaguely defined and may be tested at the copyright holder's election. This discussion is rapidly reaching its natural end. Yes, all citations of governing law have demonstrated that distribution of pixel-perfect copies of an entire collection Apple's icons represents a violation of their copyright. If this seems unclear the best test of course is to verify this with Apple. I'm not an attorney, and I haven't seen any of the attorneys on this list offer their opinions, so while no one here can be of assistance the original copyright holder is the one who can best answer your question. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials
Re: Who owns old icons?
Hi Kay, That's not true. Apple declared HyperCard dead. They deliberately took their HyperCard website off-line and the general director of Apple Europe told me Apple would never ever invest in HyperCard again and apparently they wouldn't even consider buying stamps to ship any remaining inventory to Europe. I haven't seen that list lately, but I guess AppleWorks for Apple IIGS is still on it too. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering http://economy-x-talk.com http://www.salery.biz Benefit from our inexpensive hosting services. See http://economy-x-talk.com/server.html for more info. On 3 aug 2008, at 11:08, Kay C Lan wrote: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Richmond Mathewson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't know what the true legal status is, but what I can confirm is that the last time I registered software with Apple, 10.5, HyperCard was still listed as a product that could be registered. So although HC may be old, my impression is Apple feel that although it isn't moving, it ain't dead. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Richmond Mathewson [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: However, I don't know the legal status of these .jpg and .png images, and don't really want a large fruit breathing down my neck. Don't know what the true legal status is, but what I can confirm is that the last time I registered software with Apple, 10.5, HyperCard was still listed as a product that could be registered. So although HC may be old, my impression is Apple feel that although it isn't moving, it ain't dead. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Mark Schonewille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's not true. Apple declared HyperCard dead. They deliberately took their HyperCard website off-line and the general director of Apple Europe told me Apple would never ever invest in HyperCard again and apparently they wouldn't even consider buying stamps to ship any remaining inventory to Europe. I'm sure that is all true I haven't seen that list lately, but I guess AppleWorks for Apple IIGS is still on it too. Yes, AppleWorks is there but I can't remember seeing the IIGS there. Again, as I stated in my first post, this is my impression, not a statement of the true legal situation. Whilst Marketing, RD may know that HC is dead, and high placed exec's in certain circumstances may state that HC is dead, can you guarantee the legal vultures want come calling. My reference to HC not being dead was not as a starry eyed User ever hopeful of HCs resurrection but in context of the legal ramifications of copying other people's work, even if it is old work. IMO I don't think what Richmond has done with the HC button icons is kosher, but I don't think Apple will come calling. On the other hand, did you ask the GD of Apple Europe if you could convert all the official HC documents to pdf format and distribute it and everything that came on the floppies onto a single CD and then sell if for a small price? If you didn't ask that question, what do you imagine the answer would be? To me, the existence of HC on the Apple software registration site is all Apple needs to do to confirm they are still very much the owners of all things HC. ie it's not public domain. It will be lawyers, not Marketing, RD or GDs, who decide what to do with people who don't respect that ownership. Not a lawyer so I'm probably completely wrong. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
Hi Kay, We discussed similar possibilities. Apple isn't going to do that, because it would be too expensive to make it official. They just refuse to do *anything* with HyperCard. There's one thing that very much surprises me, given Apple's statements. The link http://www.apple.com/hypercard still exists. Previously, it contained a product description, later it referred to the Apple store, and now it redirects to Wikipedia! I get the impression that someone at Apple must still have warm feelings for it. -- Best regards, Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering http://economy-x-talk.com http://www.salery.biz Benefit from our inexpensive hosting services. See http://economy-x-talk.com/server.html for more info. On 3 aug 2008, at 13:42, Kay C Lan wrote: Yes, AppleWorks is there but I can't remember seeing the IIGS there. Again, as I stated in my first post, this is my impression, not a statement of the true legal situation. Whilst Marketing, RD may know that HC is dead, and high placed exec's in certain circumstances may state that HC is dead, can you guarantee the legal vultures want come calling. My reference to HC not being dead was not as a starry eyed User ever hopeful of HCs resurrection but in context of the legal ramifications of copying other people's work, even if it is old work. IMO I don't think what Richmond has done with the HC button icons is kosher, but I don't think Apple will come calling. On the other hand, did you ask the GD of Apple Europe if you could convert all the official HC documents to pdf format and distribute it and everything that came on the floppies onto a single CD and then sell if for a small price? If you didn't ask that question, what do you imagine the answer would be? To me, the existence of HC on the Apple software registration site is all Apple needs to do to confirm they are still very much the owners of all things HC. ie it's not public domain. It will be lawyers, not Marketing, RD or GDs, who decide what to do with people who don't respect that ownership. Not a lawyer so I'm probably completely wrong. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
and whoever wrote the Wickipedia article knew about Revolution and put it first in the list of decendants of Hypercard. Other companies offered their own versions. Three products are currently available which offer HyperCard-like functionality: Runtime Revolution's Revolution expands greatly on HyperCard's feature set and offers color and a GUI toolkit which can be deployed on many popular platforms http://www.apple.com/hypercard still exists. Previously, it contained a product description, later it referred to the Apple store, and now it redirects to Wikipedia! I get the impression that someone at Apple must still have warm feelings for it. Mark Schonewille -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Who owns old icons?
In spite of any statements from Apple Europe, the last official public statement from any authorized representative from Apple's heaquarters in Cupertino was: There have been some rumors about us canceling HyperCard, which are totally bu||sh*t. - Steve Jobs, October 1998, CAUSE Conference You can enjoy an audio clip of that here: http://www.ihug.org/ AFAIK, no public statement to the contrary has ever been issued from Apple's main office. But no matter how much fun we may have with Jobs' quote, the current status of a product's availability has no bearing at all on its copyright protection. Before I continue, California state law requires me to include this disclaimer: I am not an attorney. If you need an attorney you should consult the services of a qualified professional in your area. With that out of the way, here's the dope: Works created on or after January 1, 1978 The following rules apply to published and unpublished works: * For one author, the work is copyright-protected for the life of the author plus 70 years. * For joint authors, the work is protected for the life of the surviving author plus 70 years. * For works made for hire, the work is protected for 95 years from the first publication or 120 years from the date of its creation, whichever is less. http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/D0C278CD-7D19-4EAD-B5E2124009D20220/catId/2EB060FE-5A4B-4D81-883B0E540CC4CB1E/310/276/136/CHK/ To the best of my knowledge, under both US law and the Berne Convention (which now has 163 signing nations) copyright is granted to the creator of a work regardless whether the work is ever even published at all, and remains in effect similarly without regard for continued publication or any public availability of any kind. You can create an image, sell it for one day, and then discontinue sales forever after and your copyright on any copies of that image you sold that day will still remain in effect for as long as you live plus 70 years. In brief, the creator of a work defines how the work is used. If you don't like the terms granted by the creator your only legal options are to wait a very long time, or simply to create your own original work and define its terms however you like. With HyperCard this would seem a minor issue, since in addition to being owned by someone else its icons are low-res, 1-bit, and in general rather dated. In the 12 years since HyperCard was last updated the rest of the world has continued to move forward, and today you can find thousands of free full-color icons all over the web: http://images.google.com/images?q=free+icons -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Who owns old icons?
Having converted the HC icons into JPGs and PNGs I should like to put them somewhere more accessible than buried on my moribund website (Updated it last 3 years ago as it serves almost no purpose); maybe on a Yahoo group, or elsewhere. However, I don't know the legal status of these .jpg and .png images, and don't really want a large fruit breathing down my neck. Would be glad if someone who knows could advise. [It might also be useful to consider the old icons buried in Mac OS 6 and so on] sincerely, Richmond Mathewson. A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle. __ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
