subject:"good Rev demos"

 > So, You're saying this is bad???

Just how long have you been married, Tom? ;-)

> Tom

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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread Thomas McGrath III


So, You're saying this is bad???

Tom

On Apr 10, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Lynn Fredricks wrote:


Asking someone to drop their much loved
products and rewrite them, and drop their long time IDE is like  
asking a

happily married man to drop kick his kid and wife out of his house.


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RE: good Rev demos

> At 11:20 AM -0700 4/10/08, Lynn Fredricks wrote:
> >Most have never looked at Revolution.
> >Your post did not encourage that, but the opposite that there's no 
> >reason to hurry to make that evaluation.
> 
> I think that posting a screen recording of something that 
> should impress the Director crowd could be counted as 
> encouraging people to consider it. In doing the screen 
> recording I carefully avoided triggering the several bugs 
> that I usually run into when doing those actions, because I 
> was only trying to make Revolution look good, not bad.

The screen recording was nice, but I don't think anyone got that far.

I have marketed a lot of products into "mature" spaces - Rev is one of them,
Valentina another, yet another is a 3D product called Vue. It is very
difficult, especially so when it isnt a $50K+ product (as ironic as that
might seem).

Mature spaces are very heavily influenced by a tribe of conservative buyers
that have big investments in their favored solution - and the opinions of
long standing tribal members. Just being  "fair and balanced" comes across
as a negative based on the "ear" that is predisposed to listen to negatives
that in turn validate their original, big investments. If you ever find
yourself creating a product to market into a mature market space - its good
to know.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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RE: good Rev demos


At 11:20 AM -0700 4/10/08, Lynn Fredricks wrote:

Most have never looked at Revolution.
Your post did not encourage that, but the opposite that there's no reason to
hurry to make that evaluation.


I think that posting a screen recording of something that should 
impress the Director crowd could be counted as encouraging people to 
consider it. In doing the screen recording I carefully avoided 
triggering the several bugs that I usually run into when doing those 
actions, because I was only trying to make Revolution look good, not 
bad.


You're in the business of selling Revolution, I'm not, so I'm bound 
to be at a lower level when it comes to marketing the product. I did 
at least try to make people aware that it could do things that they 
wished Director could do.


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RE: good Rev demos

> You may have scanned over my message too quickly, and missed 
> this part:
> 
> "if you're tempted you may as well go for it with this 
> particular deal."

= if you have already evaluated it. Most have never looked at Revolution.
Your post did not encourage that, but the opposite that there's no reason to
hurry to make that evaluation. "Mature" tech tribes are quick to turn away
from solutions they do not know, and any negative is interpreted as reason
enough not to evaluate.

> There's a fine balance to achieve when promoting one product 
> on a competing product's email list. It can't all be glowing 
> praise (unless it's a completely flawless product), because 
> people won't take you seriously. If you try to be honest 
> about good and bad points, hopefully they will believe the 
> good points.

Right, but that wasn't the message either. I wouldn't slam Director for not
being Rev - Director has its good points and there's no reason to wholesale
drop Director for another product. Asking someone to drop their much loved
products and rewrite them, and drop their long time IDE is like asking a
happily married man to drop kick his kid and wife out of his house.

Rev provides a different set of capabilities that adds to the toolbox of the
the purchaser - that may be a much better fit for new projects than
Director.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 


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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread J. Landman Gay


Björnke von Gierke wrote:

There are a few games available, for example by Malte Brill 
 or Karl Becker . 


I also have some:

Blocks: RevOnline, user "Jacque", or 



Casey's Solitaire: 

Klondike:

JQ Boggle: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/Products/JQBogl.html


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: good Rev demos


At 10:04 AM -0700 4/10/08, Lynn Fredricks wrote:

That just tells people there's no reason to bother
looking now - which means they will not look


You may have scanned over my message too quickly, and missed this part:

"if you're tempted you may as well go for it with this particular deal."

I don't think I was incorrect in saying that there are frequent 
special offers involving Revolution, but I did make the point above, 
that this deal was good enough to be taken, and no need to wait for 
another deal to come along.


There's a fine balance to achieve when promoting one product on a 
competing product's email list. It can't all be glowing praise 
(unless it's a completely flawless product), because people won't 
take you seriously. If you try to be honest about good and bad 
points, hopefully they will believe the good points.


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RE: good Rev demos

> Which they often don't want to do. As an example of what 
> should impress these people, here's a screen recording I 
> posted to a Director list:
> 
> http://staff.funnygarbage.com/colin/revui.mov
> 
> Something as simple as that is way beyond what Director can 
> do, and although you can do something like that with Flash, 
> the controls wouldn't be OS like, and not changeable with a 
> menu selection.

Colin,

I wish the rest of your message to the Director list had been as positive as
this. 

When we offered a very nice competitive sidegrade to Director users it would
have been appreciated if you'd been more supportive and not shot it down as
the flavor of the week. That just tells people there's no reason to bother
looking now - which means they will not look. Since Director's been around
for so long - there's a mighty big tribe of Director users who show much
skepticism over anything new or different.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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RE: good Rev demos

Hi Mark,

> My point is that one doesn't need any additional expensive 
> software to turn Revolution into a server, while Filemaker 
> does require a special server/developer version. That's a 
> good way to impress Filemaker users, I'd say.

Right - but comparatively speaking, we arent hurting.

I can tell you that Paradigma gets a LOT of Filemaker users who have hit the
limits of what FM can do. There's nothing quite like running a query that
takes all day on FM against oodles of records, when you can have it done
during a short lunch break with Valentina.

Couple that with the rich interfaces you can build with Revolution on all
three platforms (with 2.9), and there is much rejoicing.


> My second point is that software users who use mainly Flash 
> won't be impressed by Revolution's capabilities to make 
> interactive animations. To make those people use Rev, you 
> first need to convince them that they don't want to make 
> interactive animations :-)

Right - I won't argue with you there - Flash is all about fast 2D animation
through a common runtime. Rev wont beat it at its own game. But then again -
"one tool" thinking is disasterous, even if it's a popular tool like Flash.

I can get Flash animations done at very little cost - the only reason why Id
pay more for Flash animation is if its part of a greater work because I can
get most done at commoditized rates. And often, that greater work requires
integration of multiple technologies that I can't get on the cheap.

This is just like knowing "HTML". Think back 10-12 years when someone who
new more than how to use "blink" could command a reasonable salary. Now my
outsourcers can outsource that to their neighbor's cousin's middle school
son :-)

>  From a company's point of few, it is surely a good thing to 
> have more than one tool available for specialised tasks.

When you love a tool or technology, its easy to forget this. It makes me
think of the companies that were crushed because they invested in OpenDoc
years back and loved it to death, even while it was put to death by Apple.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 


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Re: good Rev demos


At 6:04 PM +0200 4/10/08, Mark Schonewille wrote:
My second point is that software users who use mainly Flash won't be 
impressed by Revolution's capabilities to make interactive 
animations. To make those people use Rev, you first need to convince 
them that they don't want to make interactive animations :-)



Which they often don't want to do. As an example of what should 
impress these people, here's a screen recording I posted to a 
Director list:


http://staff.funnygarbage.com/colin/revui.mov

Something as simple as that is way beyond what Director can do, and 
although you can do something like that with Flash, the controls 
wouldn't be OS like, and not changeable with a menu selection.


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Re: good Rev demos


Lynn,

My point is that one doesn't need any additional expensive software  
to turn Revolution into a server, while Filemaker does require a  
special server/developer version. That's a good way to impress  
Filemaker users, I'd say.


My second point is that software users who use mainly Flash won't be  
impressed by Revolution's capabilities to make interactive  
animations. To make those people use Rev, you first need to convince  
them that they don't want to make interactive animations :-)


From a company's point of few, it is surely a good thing to have  
more than one tool available for specialised tasks.


Best,

Mark

--

Economy-x-Talk
Consultancy and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Get your store on-line within minutes with Salery Web Store software.  
Download at http://www.salery.biz


Op 10-apr-2008, om 17:52 heeft Lynn Fredricks het volgende geschreven:



I would argue that teamed with Valentina, you already have that.  
With VDN
Platform Edition (Revolution), you can deploy Embedded Server/ 
Revolution
solutions on Windows, Linux and Mac OS X. A 5-Connection server you  
can
deploy in unlimited quantities, and an "unlimited" connection  
server that's

about as economical as it gets.

FM makes a lot of things very easy - at the same time, that ease  
comes with

many technical limitations.


I weigh all comparisons about equally - adding a new tool means  
you'll have
access to more customers who particularly want a feature that  
others don't
provide - as solution providers, that's not a bad thing. There are  
things
that RR cannot do well or at all, that Flash can do very well - and  
the
opposite is very true. And many a strength can also be turned  
around into a

weakness. Ive had developers tell me "oh, I can do that a-okay in my
favorite tool!" - and the results look terrible.

If I want to lay out a responsive, native looking application on
Win/Mac/Linux, the list of candidates is pretty small. Add or  
subtract a

platform, and the list changes again.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks


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RE: good Rev demos

> I don't think that you will be able to impress those Flash 
> programmers much. They want to make on-line games and while 
> that's about the only thing Flash is capable of, it does it 
> much better than Revolution will ever do. If you were to 
> compare Revolution with Filemaker, you might impress your 
> audience with readily available server and database 
> capabilities in a very flexible and easily adjustable interface.

I would argue that teamed with Valentina, you already have that. With VDN
Platform Edition (Revolution), you can deploy Embedded Server/Revolution
solutions on Windows, Linux and Mac OS X. A 5-Connection server you can
deploy in unlimited quantities, and an "unlimited" connection server that's
about as economical as it gets.

FM makes a lot of things very easy - at the same time, that ease comes with
many technical limitations.
  
> Perhaps you might also find a grateful public amongst web 
> programmers who use a combination of Perl, Python, MySQL and 
> Apache, now that Revolution is less demanding if used as a 
> CGI engine. Naturally, you might try a comparison between 
> RealBasic, SuperCard, HyperStudio 5 (if that's ever 
> released), XCode and .NET. You will probably be able to find 
> some people who'd like to switch to Revolution. Flash however...  
> nah... no chance, Flash is too different. They'll just shrug.

I weigh all comparisons about equally - adding a new tool means you'll have
access to more customers who particularly want a feature that others don't
provide - as solution providers, that's not a bad thing. There are things
that RR cannot do well or at all, that Flash can do very well - and the
opposite is very true. And many a strength can also be turned around into a
weakness. Ive had developers tell me "oh, I can do that a-okay in my
favorite tool!" - and the results look terrible.

If I want to lay out a responsive, native looking application on
Win/Mac/Linux, the list of candidates is pretty small. Add or subtract a
platform, and the list changes again.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 




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Re: good Rev demos


At 3:58 PM +0200 4/10/08, Mark Schonewille wrote:
Why do you think that Rev can deliver applications via Air or Flex 
in a faster, more cross-platform friendly way?


That sounds like two things I said mixed together. Flash thingies can 
be made as standalone applications capable of interacting with your 
file system by publishing them as AIR apps. Flex can be used to 
develop rapid Internet applications that are played via the Flash 
player in browsers. In both cases the applications would have a Flash 
or Flex like feel to them, and would be the same on Mac and Windows.


Rev wouldn't do anything via AIR or Flex, it doesn't need to, it 
makes its own applications. And those applications can more easily be 
made to look correct for each OS. For a lot of people that would a 
big benefit, and such apps could be made a lot faster than in Flash.


Sometime I might make some screen recordings of non-game Flash things 
for you to see, but not right now. At the moment I'm trying to 
convince Flash people that Revolution is a tool worth knowing about, 
not the other way around. There are already too many Flash developers!


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Re: good Rev demos


Colin,

If you want to demo a OSX-only app, you might want to have a look at . This programme records screen actions and turns them into a  
QuickTime movie. I don't know whether Flash can do this, but if they  
can't I think they would envy us Rev users. Make sure to experiment  
with it before doing a demo. Write me off-list if you need help (or  
write me off-list anyway, if you're going to use it).


Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

A large collection of scripts for HyperCard, Revolution, SuperCard and  
other programming languages can be found at http://runrev.info





On 10 apr 2008, at 16:50, Colin Holgate wrote:



I think I have enough leads now! It is a bit abstract a request, I  
know, but I want to show things that are both not a stereotypical  
HyperCard like stack, and not something that a Flash person would  
say "oh I could do that in about 10 minutes in Flash". The more like  
a standard OSX app they look the better, because even if you could  
do something on those lines in Flash, it would no doubt have that  
Flash-like feel to it, enough to not feel like a real application.


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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread Richard Gaskin


Richard Gaskin wrote:

As for demos, you might find RevNet amusing.  It's bundled in Rev, at:

Development->Plugins->GoRevNet

It started with the question, "How long would it take to make something 
like the AOL client in Rev?"  The answer turned about to be, "About two 
hours." :)


I forgot to mention that the CGIs RevNet uses are also written with Rev, 
so it's an example of using Rev on both client and server ends of a 'Net 
app.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
 Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread Richard Gaskin


Colin Holgate wrote:

On Apr 10, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:
They want to make on-line games and while that's about the only  
thing Flash is capable of,


That's a good example of why I'm doing the presentation that I'm  
doing. A lot of people believe in their own tool a lot and don't spend  
any time finding out the abilities of other tools. Many people believe  
that HyperCard and Revolution are only good for making address book  
stacks. Director is only any use for making slide shows, Flash can  
only do online games.


There is an overlap between the Flash crowd and the Rev crowd, and  
that's with standalone applications. The Flash crowd can make  
applications that are delivered via AIR, or Internet applications  
using Flex. Those are the kinds of things that Rev can also do, and  
most likely in a faster, more cross platform friendly way. If I can  
show example like that, the people using Flex may well reluctantly be  
impressed!


Well said.  It's too easy for anyone using any tool exclusively to 
unintentionally get a certain myopia.  But the variety of tools in this 
world exist for a reason, each with its strengths and weaknesses.  A 
healthy perspective about what the rest of the world is up to can only 
be helpful, and can often lead to improvements in each tool.


As for demos, you might find RevNet amusing.  It's bundled in Rev, at:

   Development->Plugins->GoRevNet

It started with the question, "How long would it take to make something 
like the AOL client in Rev?"  The answer turned about to be, "About two 
hours." :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
 Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: good Rev demos


At 4:18 PM +0200 4/10/08, Björnke von Gierke wrote:
I still think you should specify your demand a 
bit more, as just asking for every rev 
application on the planet is not a good way to 
get information about those that you actually 
want.


I think I have enough leads now! It is a bit 
abstract a request, I know, but I want to show 
things that are both not a stereotypical 
HyperCard like stack, and not something that a 
Flash person would say "oh I could do that in 
about 10 minutes in Flash". The more like a 
standard OSX app they look the better, because 
even if you could do something on those lines in 
Flash, it would no doubt have that Flash-like 
feel to it, enough to not feel like a real 
application.


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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread Devin Asay


Colin,

I use a custom-built Rev launcher app called Learning Web to deliver  
learning module stacks over the internet to students at home. It also  
allows you to  launch any server-based stack by entering a text URL.  
You're welcome to have a look at it and use it as demo if you'd like.  
You can download the launcher engine from http://hlrc.byu.edu. Look  
for the Learning Web link at the lower left. Contact me off-list if  
you have any other questions about it.


Regards,

Devin

http://hlrc.byu.edu
On Apr 9, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:
I have a couple of presentations in early May, to groups that are  
mostly into Flash, and I'll be showing them Revolution. Are there  
good examples of what Revolution has been used for that I could  
show? Obvious I'm not thinking to compete with Flash in terms of in- 
browser applications, but Rev could compare well against Flash  
based things such as Adobe AIR and Flex.



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Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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On 10 Apr 2008, at 15:43, Colin Holgate wrote:
There is an overlap between the Flash crowd and the Rev crowd, and
that's with standalone applications. The Flash crowd can make
applications that are delivered via AIR, or Internet applications
using Flex. Those are the kinds of things that Rev can also do, and
most likely in a faster, more cross platform friendly way. If I can
show example like that, the people using Flex may well reluctantly
be impressed!

There are many standalone applications, some I have already linked.
Obviously you can take any stack and make a standalone out of it. One
example of a complex stack which lends itself to that is obviously
ChatRev, another one would be RevZilla.

There are a few games available, for example by Malte Brill or Karl Becker . Mark Schonewille makes
standalones which are more Data oriented ,
Eric Chattonet has applications that do use the browser external , etc.

There are of course many more Rev products, but I think most of Rev
work is done on comission basis, and can't really be shown around
because of that. I still think you should specify your demand a bit
more, as just asking for every rev application on the planet is not a
good way to get information about those that you actually want.

Have fun
Björnke

official ChatRev page:
http://chatrev.bjoernke.com

Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://homepage.mac.com/bvg/chatrev1.3.rev";

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Re: good Rev demos


Colin,

What kind of applications can be made in Flash that could also be made  
in Revolution, (apart from games and interactive content that is  
usually provided on-line)?


Why do you think that Rev can deliver applications via Air or Flex in  
a faster, more cross-platform friendly way?


Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

A large collection of scripts for HyperCard, Revolution, SuperCard and  
other programming languages can be found at http://runrev.info





On 10 apr 2008, at 15:43, Colin Holgate wrote:


On Apr 10, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:

They want to make on-line games and while that's about the only  
thing Flash is capable of,


That's a good example of why I'm doing the presentation that I'm  
doing. A lot of people believe in their own tool a lot and don't  
spend any time finding out the abilities of other tools. Many people  
believe that HyperCard and Revolution are only good for making  
address book stacks. Director is only any use for making slide  
shows, Flash can only do online games.


There is an overlap between the Flash crowd and the Rev crowd, and  
that's with standalone applications. The Flash crowd can make  
applications that are delivered via AIR, or Internet applications  
using Flex. Those are the kinds of things that Rev can also do, and  
most likely in a faster, more cross platform friendly way. If I can  
show example like that, the people using Flex may well reluctantly  
be impressed!


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Re: good Rev demos



On Apr 10, 2008, at 9:36 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote:

For me this is one of the key differentiators between Rev and the  
other desktop development environments that I am aware of.


To a degree you can do that in Director. You can make graphic and text  
changes to the application while you're running it. You can look  
through the code, trace out variables, do message box like tests, all  
without stopping the application. It is certainly an aspect of  
development that Flash lacks!


I have no trouble pointing out the way that you work with Rev, and how  
good that can be. But I'll also try to show examples of completed  
applications to show what can be achieved given more than a few  
minutes of demo time.



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Re: good Rev demos



On Apr 10, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:

They want to make on-line games and while that's about the only  
thing Flash is capable of,


That's a good example of why I'm doing the presentation that I'm  
doing. A lot of people believe in their own tool a lot and don't spend  
any time finding out the abilities of other tools. Many people believe  
that HyperCard and Revolution are only good for making address book  
stacks. Director is only any use for making slide shows, Flash can  
only do online games.


There is an overlap between the Flash crowd and the Rev crowd, and  
that's with standalone applications. The Flash crowd can make  
applications that are delivered via AIR, or Internet applications  
using Flex. Those are the kinds of things that Rev can also do, and  
most likely in a faster, more cross platform friendly way. If I can  
show example like that, the people using Flex may well reluctantly be  
impressed!



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Re: good Rev demos

2008-04-10 Thread Trevor DeVore


On Apr 9, 2008, at 11:47 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:
I have a couple of presentations in early May, to groups that are  
mostly into Flash, and I'll be showing them Revolution. Are there  
good examples of what Revolution has been used for that I could  
show? Obvious I'm not thinking to compete with Flash in terms of in- 
browser applications, but Rev could compare well against Flash based  
things such as Adobe AIR and Flex.


Hi Colin,

Maybe this isn't exactly what you are looking to show but one of my  
favorite features of Rev is the fact that you don't need to compile  
your application each time you want to test it. Personally I found  
this very time consuming with Flash and other environments that  
require you to compile.


If you design your application using the splash screen technique then  
you can be writing code on OS X and as soon as you save your script in  
the IDE you can double-click to launch the executable for testing on a  
Windows machine running on your network or in a VM. I think Rev's  
"always on" development environment provides you more time to  
experiment with your UI because you don't have to wait to compile each  
time you want to see how a change is going to look/work. For me this  
is one of the key differentiators between Rev and the other desktop  
development environments that I am aware of.


Regards,

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems
www.bluemangolearning.com-www.screensteps.com
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Re: good Rev demos


Hi Colin,

I don't think that you will be able to impress those Flash programmers  
much. They want to make on-line games and while that's about the only  
thing Flash is capable of, it does it much better than Revolution will  
ever do. If you were to compare Revolution with Filemaker, you might  
impress your audience with readily available server and database  
capabilities in a very flexible and easily adjustable interface.  
Perhaps you might also find a grateful public amongst web programmers  
who use a combination of Perl, Python, MySQL and Apache, now that  
Revolution is less demanding if used as a CGI engine. Naturally, you  
might try a comparison between RealBasic, SuperCard, HyperStudio 5 (if  
that's ever released), XCode and .NET. You will probably be able to  
find some people who'd like to switch to Revolution. Flash however...  
nah... no chance, Flash is too different. They'll just shrug.


Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

A large collection of scripts for HyperCard, Revolution, SuperCard and  
other programming languages can be found at http://runrev.info





On 10 apr 2008, at 05:47, Colin Holgate wrote:
I have a couple of presentations in early May, to groups that are  
mostly into Flash, and I'll be showing them Revolution. Are there  
good examples of what Revolution has been used for that I could  
show? Obvious I'm not thinking to compete with Flash in terms of in- 
browser applications, but Rev could compare well against Flash based  
things such as Adobe AIR and Flex.




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Re: good Rev demos