Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Geoff Canyon]

On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:05 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
It's really just a matter of style, for instance, I *never* use the 
card method for this. I only use multiple card stacks in a couple 
places:

1) Wizards
2) I many times use the 2nd card in a stack to store all the icons for 
the first card.

This goes along with the concept of keeping the data and presentation 
layers completely seperate. HyperCard (and to an extent RunRev) allow 
users to mix the two, I prefer not to for a variety of good reasons.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. If we're talking about a 
way to set up a tab panel, we're not talking about data at all. The 
different cards would have different controls -- presentation layers, 
if you prefer -- on them.

If you're talking about data vs. presentation, then are you talking 
about the common practice of using HyperCard stacks as a database? You 
have a multi-card stack with a common group of controls, with different 
data in the fields on each card. I also generally prefer not to do 
that, although I'm not religious about it. Apart from philosophical 
issues, it limits you to several thousand records (in Revolution) as 
beyond that stacks become significantly slow to open and save.

regards,
Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan Shafer wrote:
On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
What got me started using groups instead of cards was referencing 
objects in scripts:  While designing WebMerge 2.0 I kept moving 
controls from one tab to another until I got myself clear on what the 
program's flow should be.  During those changes I'd have to change 
every script reference to every object to include the different card 
name.

With groups I have all 180+ controls on one card, so I can say:
   get the hilite of btn "idxTemplateOption"
...and it doesn't matter to the code which group that's part of.
Unless (as is the case in one of my apps), you have multiple groups with 
controls that have the same name. This facilitates making the code more 
generic/abstract and allowing me to place scripts at a higher level, but 
has the downside that I have to track the current group and do things like:

get the hilite of btn "idxTemplateOption" of group curGroup
WHen you forget to to that, stuff breaks in ways that are all but 
invisible.
But that's where my curmudgeonly habits have their rare moment of 
practical applicability:

The name idxTemplateOption is already a unique identifier.  The "idx" 
prefix tells me which part of the program it relates to, and the rest 
describes what it does.  I can move the object anywhere in the card, 
from group to group, and always address it by name alone.

Of course it's less readable from an English standpoint, but fortunately 
code is skimmed more often than it's read, and funky prefixes tend to 
stand out visually from the more English-like words native to Transcript.

For example, skim this sentence with theWindows and the Windows and see 
if the former stands out as much as tWindows.

Of course someone with your experience already has whatever funky naming 
tricks help you skim, but newcomers might find some of these helpful:


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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Dan Shafer]

On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
What got me started using groups instead of cards was referencing 
objects in scripts:  While designing WebMerge 2.0 I kept moving 
controls from one tab to another until I got myself clear on what the 
program's flow should be.  During those changes I'd have to change 
every script reference to every object to include the different card 
name.

With groups I have all 180+ controls on one card, so I can say:
   get the hilite of btn "idxTemplateOption"
...and it doesn't matter to the code which group that's part of.
Unless (as is the case in one of my apps), you have multiple groups 
with controls that have the same name. This facilitates making the code 
more generic/abstract and allowing me to place scripts at a higher 
level, but has the downside that I have to track the current group and 
do things like:

get the hilite of btn "idxTemplateOption" of group curGroup
WHen you forget to to that, stuff breaks in ways that are all but 
invisible.

Dan
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan Shafer wrote:
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:37 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote:
>> Note that the multi-card solution for tabs can still be used even if
>> only a part of the window needs to change, as long as there is only
>> one. You can group everything else (perhaps along with the tab panel
>> itself) and include it on all the cards. Then create only what you
>> want to change as card controls.
>>
>> You _have_ to use the show/hide groups technique (or something
>> similar) if you have more than one tab panel and they have to change
>> independently.
>
> Good point. I have a mixture of the two types of needs, but when
> I can, I now use the card method as it is much more flexible and
> easier to code.
Most of the time. :)
What got me started using groups instead of cards was referencing 
objects in scripts:  While designing WebMerge 2.0 I kept moving controls 
from one tab to another until I got myself clear on what the program's 
flow should be.  During those changes I'd have to change every script 
reference to every object to include the different card name.

With groups I have all 180+ controls on one card, so I can say:
   get the hilite of btn "idxTemplateOption"
...and it doesn't matter to the code which group that's part of.
I like many aspects of working with card-based tabs, and tend to use 
that wherever I can.  But for the flexibility it lends to the design 
process, I'll probably use groups for a lot of tabbed interfaces going 
forward (at least until I learn to do proper paper prototyping like da 
pros at UIE ).

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 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Chipp Walters]

It's really just a matter of style, for instance, I *never* use the card 
method for this. I only use multiple card stacks in a couple places:

1) Wizards
2) I many times use the 2nd card in a stack to store all the icons for 
the first card.

This goes along with the concept of keeping the data and presentation 
layers completely seperate. HyperCard (and to an extent RunRev) allow 
users to mix the two, I prefer not to for a variety of good reasons.

best,
Chipp
Dan Shafer wrote:
Geoff
Good point. I have a mixture of the two types of needs, but when I can, 
I now use the card method as it is much more flexible and easier to code.

Dan

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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Dan Shafer]

Geoff
Good point. I have a mixture of the two types of needs, but when I can, 
I now use the card method as it is much more flexible and easier to 
code.

Dan
On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:37 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote:
On Jan 17, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
On another app, though I *had* to use the hide/show groups method 
because only part of a window (card) changes in response to the users 
selections.
Note that the multi-card solution for tabs can still be used even if 
only a part of the window needs to change, as long as there is only 
one. You can group everything else (perhaps along with the tab panel 
itself) and include it on all the cards. Then create only what you 
want to change as card controls.

You _have_ to use the show/hide groups technique (or something 
similar) if you have more than one tab panel and they have to change 
independently.

regards,
Geoff Canyon
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Geoff Canyon]

On Jan 17, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
On another app, though I *had* to use the hide/show groups method 
because only part of a window (card) changes in response to the users 
selections.
Note that the multi-card solution for tabs can still be used even if 
only a part of the window needs to change, as long as there is only 
one. You can group everything else (perhaps along with the tab panel 
itself) and include it on all the cards. Then create only what you want 
to change as card controls.

You _have_ to use the show/hide groups technique (or something similar) 
if you have more than one tab panel and they have to change 
independently.

regards,
Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Dan Shafer]

The loud noise you just heard was the sound of my open hand smiting my 
forehead.

This would have made one of my apps SO much simpler. In fact, I'm 
actually tempted to go rewrite the darned thing using separate cards 
and this technique. The client just asked for some significant changes 
and I suspect I can roll this one in almost transparently.

On another app, though I *had* to use the hide/show groups method 
because only part of a window (card) changes in response to the users 
selections.

Nice to have the versatility!
Dan
On Jan 17, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Ken Ray wrote:
On 1/17/05 12:25 PM, "Andre Garzia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jan 15, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
You have two basic ways to work with tabs in Rev: putting the tab in 
a
shared group and moving between cards in response to the menuPick
message, or responding to that message by hiding and showing groups.

Damn! :-)
I never tought of sharing a tab and moving through cards I have
this app with 8 tabs and I am hiding and showing groups...  silly 
me...
Thanks Richard, again, I learn a new trick from your mail!
I do this all the time - create a tab button, group it, set the
backgroundbehavior to true, then set its script to:
on menuPick newTab,oldTab
  go card newTab
end menuPick
Easy!
:-)
Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Ken Ray]

On 1/17/05 12:25 PM, "Andre Garzia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Jan 15, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> 
>> You have two basic ways to work with tabs in Rev: putting the tab in a
>> shared group and moving between cards in response to the menuPick
>> message, or responding to that message by hiding and showing groups.
>> 
> 
> Damn! :-)
> 
> I never tought of sharing a tab and moving through cards I have
> this app with 8 tabs and I am hiding and showing groups...  silly me...
> Thanks Richard, again, I learn a new trick from your mail!

I do this all the time - create a tab button, group it, set the
backgroundbehavior to true, then set its script to:

on menuPick newTab,oldTab
  go card newTab
end menuPick

Easy!

:-)

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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living and learning (Re: RunRev vs RealBasic (Richard Gaskin))

[Andre Garzia]

On Jan 15, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
You have two basic ways to work with tabs in Rev: putting the tab in a 
shared group and moving between cards in response to the menuPick 
message, or responding to that message by hiding and showing groups.

Damn! :-)
I never tought of sharing a tab and moving through cards I have 
this app with 8 tabs and I am hiding and showing groups...  silly me...
Thanks Richard, again, I learn a new trick from your mail!

andre
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http://studio.soapdog.org
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