Re: AW: talking about paradigms
David, You are a clear thinker. I am jealous. That should end that discussion. LOL Jack On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:59:30 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dang, you must've gotten the New and Improved Super Java. You know the one > without any NullPointerExceptions. Where can I get a copy? > > > > > "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > 11/16/2004 05:46 AM > > Please respond to > "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > cc > > > > Subject AW: talking about paradigms > > > > > > > > Hi Eddie, > > thanx for your reply, I will put it in my poetry album, and reread eat, > each time I'm asking myself about the sense of the living... > > Sad, but my problems are rather in the real world, where the developers > aren't Jedi or whatever Knights, but a bunch of guys, with each of them > being neither as experienced as you are, nor as poetic as you are. > > This why I have only few alternatives: > make code review for any single change > create very strict coding standarts and still make code > review > ban inappropriate functionality > since options one and two affords more time than I have, we simply > banned EL from the project, and we do in fact have readable and more or > less standardise code, where each of 10 developers can jump in and > continue where another one just ended. > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language > Guide, > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201310058/qid=1100601935/ > sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0821267-8564865?v=glance&s=books) > > > > Regards > Leon > > > > Von: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 03:26 > > An: Struts Users Mailing List > > Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms > > > > Leon, > > > > Being a developer is like ... being a Jedi Knight. You seek the good > and > > thrive on it, but are forever tempted by the dark side. Eventually, > you > > give in to it and learn why it's evil and then go back to the light. > That > > is, unless you're so enthralled by the dark side that you become > consumed > > by > > it. Such actions my well lead to one's demise though - especially if > a > > Skywalker is around. > > > > To put it different, it's like being a woodworker. The machines you > use > > are > > stupid and emotionless. They have guards in place for a reason. The > > woodworker can remove the guards because they're "in the way", but he > has > > nobody but himself to blame when he cuts his finger off. > > > > I've heard this argument too many times. "The language should ... " > > > > Yes, I realize that there are folks who'd probably kill themselves in > an > > afternoon if they were the woodworker above, but that's their > business. > > Some people like living on the edge and think it's cool to write > > obfuscated > > code. Their reward will be dismissal if they don't mend their ways > before > > someone comes along that can write clean implementations that people > can > > come behind and maintain. > > > > Shift responsibility to where it belongs - to the critter that has > grey > > matter keeping its skull from collapsing - the developer. Yes, yes, > make > > use of the tools a language gives you to write better, cleaner, more > > maintainable code ... but having the power to slit your wrists can > > actually > > come in handy sometimes. Pointer arithmetic (the one feature missing > from > > Java. Yes, java has pointers, and please don't bore me by trying to > prove > > otherwise :-) is the one feature I miss from the old "C days", and it > can > > be > > a very elegant solution to certain problems --- just like recursion > (which > > I > > try to use sparingly as well). > > > > Enough :-) I like power. Java has enough, and makes up for what it > > doesn't > > have by adding other cool functionality. In the end, it's the > > responsibility of the developer
RE: AW: talking about paradigms
intermixed...
> This is a simple sintaxis issue...
> parameters in java are not passes as pointers.. they are passed as values
> ( the memory address of the object in the heap )..
emm... that's a pointer :) passing variables by reference or value is
neither here nor there.
"pointer - An address, from the point of view of a programming language"
(from an online computing dictionary)
references - pointers - same thing really. ("The terms "pointer" and
"reference" are generally interchangable " - same dictionary)
>
> so if we are to be precise there are no real pointers in java...
> however.. the main difference with C/C++ is that you cannot do arithmetic
> operations with a pointer... that´s where the "hiding" takes place
Yep, there are pointers... or references... java calls them references,
c/c++ calls them pointers - but they are the same thing. c lets you get at
the pointers and affect their values directly. Java stops this, but you can
still change a pointer value - just assign it to a different object!
Automatic memory management and no pointer arithmatic is what makes java so
damm nice to anyone who's used c!
Daniel.
>
> Just my .2 cents
> Lucas
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Struts User" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dakota Jack"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: AW: talking about paradigms
>
>
> > I agree with Jack. There are pointers everywhere in Java. Java learns
> > from C++ mistake by "hiding" error prone functionality such as
> > pointers.
> >
> > Joshua Block's book is not a Java Book for beginner. It is target for
> > experience developer. Probably you should look into Bruce Eckel's
> > on-line book for more information - http://64.78.49.204/
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:42:32 -0800, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > Hello, Leon,
> > >
> > > There are pointers in Java. Every object is referenced by a pointer.
> > > Indeed, how else could an object be referenced? I am not sure why you
> > > cited Joshua Bloch's book on this. There is not, as Eddie said,
> > > pointer arithmetic.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:05 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO
> > > > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books
> written by
> > > > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming
> Language
> > > > Guide,
> > > > Regards
> > > > Leon
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep."
> > >
> > > ~Native Proverb~
> > >
> > > "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be
> crows."
> > >
> > > ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: talking about paradigms
LO! Lucas, You changed the topic from pointers to whether parameters are pointers. That is a different question. Again, there are real pointers in Java. Again, every object reference is such a pointer. I assume you meant "syntax issue". This is not a syntax issue. Pointers are referents to positions on the data store. They must be and are extensively used in Java. Jack P.S. Let us not let this discussion devolve into a pointer discussion or take it to a different thread? On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:04:20 -0300, Lucas Gonzalez Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is a simple sintaxis issue... > parameters in java are not passes as pointers.. they are passed as values > ( the memory address of the object in the heap ).. > > so if we are to be precise there are no real pointers in java... > however.. the main difference with C/C++ is that you cannot do arithmetic > operations with a pointer... that´s where the "hiding" takes place > > Just my .2 cents > Lucas > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Struts User" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dakota Jack" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: AW: talking about paradigms > > > I agree with Jack. There are pointers everywhere in Java. Java learns > > from C++ mistake by "hiding" error prone functionality such as > > pointers. > > > > Joshua Block's book is not a Java Book for beginner. It is target for > > experience developer. Probably you should look into Bruce Eckel's > > on-line book for more information - http://64.78.49.204/ > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Lee > > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:42:32 -0800, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Hello, Leon, > > > > > > There are pointers in Java. Every object is referenced by a pointer. > > > Indeed, how else could an object be referenced? I am not sure why you > > > cited Joshua Bloch's book on this. There is not, as Eddie said, > > > pointer arithmetic. > > > > > > Jack > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:05 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > > > > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > > > > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming > Language > > > > Guide, > > > > Regards > > > > Leon > > > > > > -- > > > "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." > > > > > > ~Native Proverb~ > > > > > > "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be > crows." > > > > > > ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~Native Proverb~ "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows." ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: talking about paradigms
Dang, you must've gotten the New and Improved Super Java. You know the one without any NullPointerExceptions. Where can I get a copy? "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11/16/2004 05:46 AM Please respond to "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc Subject AW: talking about paradigms Hi Eddie, thanx for your reply, I will put it in my poetry album, and reread eat, each time I'm asking myself about the sense of the living... Sad, but my problems are rather in the real world, where the developers aren't Jedi or whatever Knights, but a bunch of guys, with each of them being neither as experienced as you are, nor as poetic as you are. This why I have only few alternatives: make code review for any single change create very strict coding standarts and still make code review ban inappropriate functionality since options one and two affords more time than I have, we simply banned EL from the project, and we do in fact have readable and more or less standardise code, where each of 10 developers can jump in and continue where another one just ended. And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language Guide, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201310058/qid=1100601935/ sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0821267-8564865?v=glance&s=books) Regards Leon > Von: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 03:26 > An: Struts Users Mailing List > Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms > > Leon, > > Being a developer is like ... being a Jedi Knight. You seek the good and > thrive on it, but are forever tempted by the dark side. Eventually, you > give in to it and learn why it's evil and then go back to the light. That > is, unless you're so enthralled by the dark side that you become consumed > by > it. Such actions my well lead to one's demise though - especially if a > Skywalker is around. > > To put it different, it's like being a woodworker. The machines you use > are > stupid and emotionless. They have guards in place for a reason. The > woodworker can remove the guards because they're "in the way", but he has > nobody but himself to blame when he cuts his finger off. > > I've heard this argument too many times. "The language should ... " > > Yes, I realize that there are folks who'd probably kill themselves in an > afternoon if they were the woodworker above, but that's their business. > Some people like living on the edge and think it's cool to write > obfuscated > code. Their reward will be dismissal if they don't mend their ways before > someone comes along that can write clean implementations that people can > come behind and maintain. > > Shift responsibility to where it belongs - to the critter that has grey > matter keeping its skull from collapsing - the developer. Yes, yes, make > use of the tools a language gives you to write better, cleaner, more > maintainable code ... but having the power to slit your wrists can > actually > come in handy sometimes. Pointer arithmetic (the one feature missing from > Java. Yes, java has pointers, and please don't bore me by trying to prove > otherwise :-) is the one feature I miss from the old "C days", and it can > be > a very elegant solution to certain problems --- just like recursion (which > I > try to use sparingly as well). > > Enough :-) I like power. Java has enough, and makes up for what it > doesn't > have by adding other cool functionality. In the end, it's the > responsibility of the developer to do what's right. > > Peace All, > > Eddie > > - Original Message - > From: "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:44 AM > Subject: AW: talking about paradigms > > > > > > > No, but what about > > > > > > ? > > > (not sure about the syntax). > > whats the problem? > > MVC usually allows 'read-only access to model' for the view > > Also the question is, what you expose to the view. > > If you are afraid that somebody will misuse the library entries - > don't > > expose them. > > I suppose MVC was the reason for JSP EL not to allow arbitrary method > > invocations. But I'd love to have such anyway ;) > > > > &
Re: AW: talking about paradigms
This is a simple sintaxis issue... parameters in java are not passes as pointers.. they are passed as values ( the memory address of the object in the heap ).. so if we are to be precise there are no real pointers in java... however.. the main difference with C/C++ is that you cannot do arithmetic operations with a pointer... that´s where the "hiding" takes place Just my .2 cents Lucas - Original Message - From: "Struts User" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dakota Jack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:50 AM Subject: Re: AW: talking about paradigms > I agree with Jack. There are pointers everywhere in Java. Java learns > from C++ mistake by "hiding" error prone functionality such as > pointers. > > Joshua Block's book is not a Java Book for beginner. It is target for > experience developer. Probably you should look into Bruce Eckel's > on-line book for more information - http://64.78.49.204/ > > I hope this helps. > > Lee > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:42:32 -0800, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, Leon, > > > > There are pointers in Java. Every object is referenced by a pointer. > > Indeed, how else could an object be referenced? I am not sure why you > > cited Joshua Bloch's book on this. There is not, as Eddie said, > > pointer arithmetic. > > > > Jack > > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:05 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > > > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > > > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language > > > Guide, > > > Regards > > > Leon > > > > -- > > "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." > > > > ~Native Proverb~ > > > > "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows." > > > > ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: talking about paradigms
I agree with Jack. There are pointers everywhere in Java. Java learns from C++ mistake by "hiding" error prone functionality such as pointers. Joshua Block's book is not a Java Book for beginner. It is target for experience developer. Probably you should look into Bruce Eckel's on-line book for more information - http://64.78.49.204/ I hope this helps. Lee On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:42:32 -0800, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, Leon, > > There are pointers in Java. Every object is referenced by a pointer. > Indeed, how else could an object be referenced? I am not sure why you > cited Joshua Bloch's book on this. There is not, as Eddie said, > pointer arithmetic. > > Jack > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:05 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language > > Guide, > > Regards > > Leon > > -- > "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." > > ~Native Proverb~ > > "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows." > > ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: talking about paradigms
Hello, Leon, There are pointers in Java. Every object is referenced by a pointer. Indeed, how else could an object be referenced? I am not sure why you cited Joshua Bloch's book on this. There is not, as Eddie said, pointer arithmetic. Jack On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:05 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language > Guide, > Regards > Leon -- "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~Native Proverb~ "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows." ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: talking about paradigms
Hi Jack, I like you kind of "cashing out", but I think your diagram misses some points. In fact the view-controller itself is a view on the application model, where the business logic unit (which can be a component in a co-architecture i.e. session-bean) is the appropriate controller. So a complex mvc-architecture, contains more than one controller, but a grid of smaller mvc cycles, each of them being the view on the previous controller. You are partially right talking about Webframeworks as not truly MVC, at least they do not have the possibility of callbacks from controller to view (see also subject/observer), but on the other hand, there is no need for explicit back calling opportunity issued by Gamma as he defined the MVC pattern. This why I think, we can still speak about webframeworks as MVC, keeping in mind, that they are solely client triggered. Regards Leon > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Dakota Jack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Montag, 15. November 2004 20:46 > An: Struts Users Mailing List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms > > The whole discussion about MVC and web frameworks is important, I > think, because not many cash it out when to do so (cash it out) would > be helpful for discussion. We might try some way of refering to this > such as WEBMVC. Anyway, the MVC pattern, taken literally, is > impossible in a web framework. What is possible is something like the > following where the arrows indicate where there is a coupling: > > View <==> Controller <==> Model > > Here the Model and the View are completely decoupled. But, even this > is almost a total representation of what is really going on. What is > really going on is that the response object is ultimately HTML and > that the JSP pages are part of creating the response object, so that > JSP pages inherently provide a smart-serverside View. This all is not > simple to cash out. I have a sample beginning of cashing this out at > http://131.191.32.112:8080/ , which, if others want to provide > alternative way of viewing this I will show them all. The most > important thing, I think, is to distinguish between the View data and > the Model data. That is the distinction, I think, that Craig makes in > JSTL between iteration and sql statements in JSP. > > Jack > > > -- > "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." > > ~Native Proverb~ > > "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be > crows." > > ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > since we started talking about paradigms... how does JSTL and > especially > > > EL fit into MVC paradigm? > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: talking about paradigms
Hi Eddie, thanx for your reply, I will put it in my poetry album, and reread eat, each time I'm asking myself about the sense of the living... Sad, but my problems are rather in the real world, where the developers aren't Jedi or whatever Knights, but a bunch of guys, with each of them being neither as experienced as you are, nor as poetic as you are. This why I have only few alternatives: make code review for any single change create very strict coding standarts and still make code review ban inappropriate functionality since options one and two affords more time than I have, we simply banned EL from the project, and we do in fact have readable and more or less standardise code, where each of 10 developers can jump in and continue where another one just ended. And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language Guide, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201310058/qid=1100601935/ sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0821267-8564865?v=glance&s=books) Regards Leon > Von: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 03:26 > An: Struts Users Mailing List > Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms > > Leon, > > Being a developer is like ... being a Jedi Knight. You seek the good and > thrive on it, but are forever tempted by the dark side. Eventually, you > give in to it and learn why it's evil and then go back to the light. That > is, unless you're so enthralled by the dark side that you become consumed > by > it. Such actions my well lead to one's demise though - especially if a > Skywalker is around. > > To put it different, it's like being a woodworker. The machines you use > are > stupid and emotionless. They have guards in place for a reason. The > woodworker can remove the guards because they're "in the way", but he has > nobody but himself to blame when he cuts his finger off. > > I've heard this argument too many times. "The language should ... " > > Yes, I realize that there are folks who'd probably kill themselves in an > afternoon if they were the woodworker above, but that's their business. > Some people like living on the edge and think it's cool to write > obfuscated > code. Their reward will be dismissal if they don't mend their ways before > someone comes along that can write clean implementations that people can > come behind and maintain. > > Shift responsibility to where it belongs - to the critter that has grey > matter keeping its skull from collapsing - the developer. Yes, yes, make > use of the tools a language gives you to write better, cleaner, more > maintainable code ... but having the power to slit your wrists can > actually > come in handy sometimes. Pointer arithmetic (the one feature missing from > Java. Yes, java has pointers, and please don't bore me by trying to prove > otherwise :-) is the one feature I miss from the old "C days", and it can > be > a very elegant solution to certain problems --- just like recursion (which > I > try to use sparingly as well). > > Enough :-) I like power. Java has enough, and makes up for what it > doesn't > have by adding other cool functionality. In the end, it's the > responsibility of the developer to do what's right. > > Peace All, > > Eddie > > - Original Message - > From: "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:44 AM > Subject: AW: talking about paradigms > > > > > > > No, but what about > > > > > > ? > > > (not sure about the syntax). > > whats the problem? > > MVC usually allows 'read-only access to model' for the view > > Also the question is, what you expose to the view. > > If you are afraid that somebody will misuse the library entries - > don't > > expose them. > > I suppose MVC was the reason for JSP EL not to allow arbitrary method > > invocations. But I'd love to have such anyway ;) > > > > >... > > > And what about database access tags? > > You mean the jstl tags? They are there for quick and dirty. > > If you don't change anything in the database though, it still okay to > MVC. > > If you don't want it, don't expose your database in the first place ;) > > > > > > The problem is, that if you give a user the possibility to misuse your > framework - he will. > And EL gives jsps
AW: talking about paradigms
> > No, but what about > > > > ? > > (not sure about the syntax). > whats the problem? > MVC usually allows 'read-only access to model' for the view > Also the question is, what you expose to the view. > If you are afraid that somebody will misuse the library entries - don't > expose them. > I suppose MVC was the reason for JSP EL not to allow arbitrary method > invocations. But I'd love to have such anyway ;) > > >... > > And what about database access tags? > You mean the jstl tags? They are there for quick and dirty. > If you don't change anything in the database though, it still okay to MVC. > If you don't want it, don't expose your database in the first place ;) > > The problem is, that if you give a user the possibility to misuse your framework - he will. And EL gives jsps more power than a dumb view should have. And if your view isn't just layouting out the data, but performing nearly complex operations, it's not dumb anymore, and a smart view doesn't fit into the MVC. If the user is allowed to break the paradigm he will. If you have an architecture, which is built on a paradigm (and any good architecture is) you can't allow the developers to break the paradigm, or the architecture will stop working one day, without obvious reasons. It's probably why there are no pointers in java, even pointers adds cool features to the language. Regards Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: talking about paradigms
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. November 2004 11:04
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms
>
> I don't think EL breaks the MVC pattern. Although it leaves you free
> to do so if you so wish. I don't see a world appart from using
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ${person.name}
No, but what about
?
(not sure about the syntax).
>
> More to he point the fmt tag lib put the presentation control back in
> the hands of the site builder. Otherwise you end up addressing view
> issues in your actions or even action forms.
And what about database access tags?
It's the same thing, why there are no pointers in java (besides that it's
meanwhile impossible because of the gc): give the user something which can be
misused, and he will.
Leon
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:42:27 +0100, Rosenberg, Leon
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > since we started talking about paradigms... how does JSTL and especially
> > EL fit into MVC paradigm?
> >
> > Or, the better question, why does struts support EL nowadays, when it
> > breaks the paradigm?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Leon
> >
> >
>
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