Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Justin C. Sherrill]

On Thu, August 31, 2006 3:42 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote:

> Big question: after all the work that will go into the clustering, other
> than scientific research, what will the average user be able to use such
> advanced capability for?

Lots.  To get to a single system image, the operating system has to be
made less obfusticated.  A cleaner system means less pain for the
developers and less bugs due to obscurity.

Making the system multiprocessor safe generally improves uniprocessor
speed.  Even so, we are quickly reaching the point where all processors
are dual-core.

New ideas, like Kip Macy's checkpointing work, can be tried out without
judgement on anything but its technical merits.  While Matt concentrates
on his work, other people are free to add.  For instance, we haven't
removed any commit bits because of disagreements in project direction.  :)

Keep in mind that as Matt pointed out, a lot of what makes DragonFly
interesting is the other work being done.  Clustering is one part of many.

Re: Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Steve Mynott]

On 8/31/06, Jonathon McKitrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 09:58:59AM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote:
: that 75% of the interest in our project has nothing to do with my
: project goals but instead are directly associated with work being done
: by our relatively small community.  I truely appreciate that effort
: because it allows me to focus on the part that is most near and dear
: to my own heart.

Big question: after all the work that will go into the clustering, other than
scientific research, what will the average user be able to use such advanced
capability for?


p2p systems?

and uses as yet unthought of!

Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Jonathon McKitrick]

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 04:30:47PM -0700, walt wrote:
: Heh.  I'm probably not an average user (I'm just an amateur OS geek),
: but the day I can compile OpenOffice in under an hour on my cluster of
: five DragonFly PC's will be the day I die and go straight to Heaven.

I thought that day came when we didn't ever have to pay again to open a Word
document on our non-MS boxes.  ;-)


Jonathon McKitrick
--
My other computer is your Windows box.

Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Matt Emmerton]

> On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 09:58:59AM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote:
> : that 75% of the interest in our project has nothing to do with my
> : project goals but instead are directly associated with work being
done
> : by our relatively small community.  I truely appreciate that effort
> : because it allows me to focus on the part that is most near and dear
> : to my own heart.
>
> Big question: after all the work that will go into the clustering, other
than
> scientific research, what will the average user be able to use such
advanced
> capability for?

Average user?  Not much.  But for anyone who administers server farms, the
single-system-image style of clustering is a promise that multiple vendors
have tried to deliver, but all have failed (in my memory).   Putting on my
flame-suit, SCO's Non-Stop Clusters with UnixWare was the best
implementation I've seen, but that failed to mature and was axed after the
Caldera takeover.  (Bill Hacker will likely disagree, but I will point out
that I've only been active in the U*ix space for ~10 years at most.)

This is where DFly can really steal FreeBSD's thunder.  Many of those who
use FreeBSD do so in an ISP context.  Many of those installations have
multiple servers either for load-balancing or redundancy issues.  But
maintaining many separate servers is a pain.  Being able to have multiple
DFly boxes that are clustered together and can be administered (at least
from the application space) as a single-system-image environment will
provide a great boost to productivity.

Sure, Xen and virtualization have their place, but there still is a place
for huge systems -- whether it's a multi-million dollar 64-way machine (like
I use at my "day job"), or a cluster of 32 quad-core Opterons.

Regards,
--
Matt Emmerton

Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[walt]

Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 09:58:59AM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote:
> : that 75% of the interest in our project has nothing to do with my
> : project goals but instead are directly associated with work being done
> : by our relatively small community.  I truely appreciate that effort
> : because it allows me to focus on the part that is most near and dear
> : to my own heart.
> 
> Big question: after all the work that will go into the clustering, other than
> scientific research, what will the average user be able to use such advanced
> capability for?

Heh.  I'm probably not an average user (I'm just an amateur OS geek),
but the day I can compile OpenOffice in under an hour on my cluster of
five DragonFly PC's will be the day I die and go straight to Heaven.

Yes, I once hoped to achieve World Peace, but I'm older now and my goals
have become slightly less ambitious.

Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Jonathon McKitrick]

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 09:58:59AM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote:
: that 75% of the interest in our project has nothing to do with my
: project goals but instead are directly associated with work being done
: by our relatively small community.  I truely appreciate that effort
: because it allows me to focus on the part that is most near and dear
: to my own heart.

Big question: after all the work that will go into the clustering, other than
scientific research, what will the average user be able to use such advanced
capability for?

Jonathon McKitrick
--
My other computer is your Windows box.

Re: DF-BSD on apple hardware

[Emiel Kollof]

Op donderdag 31 augustus 2006 17:29, schreef lap:

> > (Your return email is a bad address, by the way.)
>
> Yes I know, I get bored of being spammed. If you are not running
> windows, you can send mail to me at  laurent (at sign) chez (minus sign)
> le (minus sign) sourd dot name . :)

Why are you using my domain name? Try example.org next time, instead of having 
spammers pester my mailserver about this unkown user called 'lap'. Or just 
set up adequate spam-protection. RBLs, forcing some RFC-compliance, 
Greylisting and SpamAssassin go a long way.

Cheers,
Emiel
-- 
Q:  What do Winnie the Pooh and John the Baptist have in common?
A:  The same middle name.


pgpkItcv4Iboy.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: "The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Matthew Dillon]

:Hello,
:
:I found this message on the NetBSD mailing list and it
:can be quite interesting for reading. It says about
:negative stuff in the NetBSD project and manners for
:fixing the problems of the project.
:
:I hope it can be useful for read to others, for me is
:quite interesting. He mentions DragonFly, so I think
:is worth mentioning it here because of that ;)
:
:http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html
:
:Regards,
:timofonic

It's very interesting and should serve as a caution both that no
open-source project lasts forever, and no open-source project ever
truely dies, either.  What happens is that people move on, and others
fill the gaps and, eventually, even if it winds up being 20 years later,
the best pieces of the project morph into something else entirely.

For my part, I have a very clear set of personal goals that I want
to achieve with DragonFly, but regardless of my own goals the concept
of 'getting behind' in various areas is one that we, facing similarly
low numbers of developers, have to deal with every day.  In many
respects, the interest in the DragonFly project is very heavily
supported by the work that everyone is doing to keep the project
up to date as it is by my lofty clustering goals.  In fact, I would say
that 75% of the interest in our project has nothing to do with my
project goals but instead are directly associated with work being done
by our relatively small community.  I truely appreciate that effort
because it allows me to focus on the part that is most near and dear
to my own heart.

-Matt
Matthew Dillon 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: anoncvs access info?

[Csaba Henk]

On 2006-08-31, Justin C. Sherrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, August 31, 2006 4:43 am, Simon 'corecode' Schubert wrote:
>> I am serving anoncvs via ssh on chlamydia:
>>   maybe the rsync feed could
>> also be used, but I doubt it.

Thanks! Well, OK, I see now the anoncvs links under the Download Sites /
Source Mirrors subsection.

> (This is more a response for the original poster.)  For completeness,
> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/community/download.cgi lists all the different
> download methods.

That's where looked for the info. However, I expected to see some info
under the "Obtaining source via CVS" section, and I gave up when I found
there nothing. It _is_ my fault too, still I think it's contra-intuitive
as is now.

I'd either change the section title to "Obtaining source via Cvsup" or
added a sentence like "See the list of source mirrors for anoncvs
access".

Just my two forints.

Csaba

Re: DF-BSD on apple hardware

[Bill Hacker]

lap wrote:


Justin C. Sherrill a écrit :

*snip*



(Your return email is a bad address, by the way.)



Yes I know, I get bored of being spammed. If you are not running
windows, you can send mail to me at  laurent (at sign) chez (minus sign)
le (minus sign) sourd dot name . :)

LaP



Cuts both ways. Mailing list assistance aside, you probably can't send mail 
direclty *to* some of us, either.


Try me direct on:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Will copy you the logs if you like...

(Exim on FreeBSD 6.1 AMD-64 SMP now, on DFLY ... someday...)

Bill

Re: DF-BSD on apple hardware

[lap]

Justin C. Sherrill a écrit :


A good alternative would be to purchase Parallels; I've used beta versions
on my MacBook and DragonFly ran very well using it.  I plan to buy it when
I have some spare cash...


Thanks a lot for your answer. Using with Parallels seems ok for me.



(Your return email is a bad address, by the way.)


Yes I know, I get bored of being spammed. If you are not running
windows, you can send mail to me at  laurent (at sign) chez (minus sign)
le (minus sign) sourd dot name . :)

LaP

Re: DF-BSD on apple hardware

[Justin C. Sherrill]

On Thu, August 31, 2006 5:18 am, lap wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I hope I am at the right place for this question : Is there any success
> story here on running DragonFly BSD on apple intel hardware ?
> Anyone tried ?

It's probably possible, using Boot Camp to generate the right environment.
 Assuming the motherboard chipset is supported, it should be minimally
functional.

A good alternative would be to purchase Parallels; I've used beta versions
on my MacBook and DragonFly ran very well using it.  I plan to buy it when
I have some spare cash...

(Your return email is a bad address, by the way.)

Re: anoncvs access info?

[Justin C. Sherrill]

On Thu, August 31, 2006 4:43 am, Simon 'corecode' Schubert wrote:
> I am serving anoncvs via ssh on chlamydia:
>   maybe the rsync feed could
> also be used, but I doubt it.

(This is more a response for the original poster.)  For completeness,
http://www.dragonflybsd.org/community/download.cgi lists all the different
download methods.

"The future of NetBSD" by Charles M. Hannum

[Jose timofonic]

Hello,

I found this message on the NetBSD mailing list and it
can be quite interesting for reading. It says about
negative stuff in the NetBSD project and manners for
fixing the problems of the project.

I hope it can be useful for read to others, for me is
quite interesting. He mentions DragonFly, so I think
is worth mentioning it here because of that ;)

http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html

Regards,
timofonic



__ 
LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. 
Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto. 
http://es.voice.yahoo.com

DF-BSD on apple hardware

[lap]

Hi all,

I hope I am at the right place for this question : Is there any success 
story here on running DragonFly BSD on apple intel hardware ?

Anyone tried ?

Thanks

LaP

ftpsesame status

[Gergo Szakal]

Last time I checked ftpsesame still dropped those strange errors (and we 
debugged with Joerg), if one could feed me with the current state, I 
should be very grateful.
Apologies for my impatience, don't wanna seem a pest, but I need this 
piece of software badly, since the lack of it prevents me from using DF 
in a real "production" environment.


Debug info:

bash-3.1# gdb ftpsesame
GNU gdb 6.2.1
Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain 
conditions.

Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB.  Type "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "i386-dragonfly"...
(gdb) set args -d -D7 -irl0
(gdb) b filter_allow
Breakpoint 1 at 0x80493c0: file filter.c, line 104.
(gdb) run
Starting program: /home/szg/ftpsesame-0.95/ftpsesame -d -D7 -irl0
listening on rl0, filter 'tcp and port 21', snaplen 500
#1 session init: client 160.114.118.95:4421, server 193.6.210.44:21
#1 client: USER anonymous
#1 server: 331 Please specify the password.
#1 client: PASS -wget@
#1 server: 230 Login successful.
#1 client: SYST
#1 server: 215 UNIX Type: L8
#1 client: PWD
#1 server: 257 "/"
#1 client: TYPE I
#1 server: 200 Switching to Binary mode.
#1 client: CWD /pub/linux/mirrors/knoppix
#1 server: 250-Check KNOPPIX-CHANGELOG.txt for the recent changes in 
KNOPPIX.

#1 client: SIZE KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-DE.iso
#1 server: 213 730036224
#1 client: PORT 160,114,118,95,17,70
#1 server: 200 PORT command successful. Consider using PASV.
#1 active: PORT 160,114,118,95,17,70
#1 allowing 193.6.210.44 to 160.114.118.95 port 4422

Breakpoint 1, filter_allow (id=1, src=0x28161974, src2=0x281270ab, 
dst=0xbfbff738, d_port=4422) at filter.c:104

104 {
(gdb) n
109 snprintf(an, PF_ANCHOR_NAME_SIZE, "%s/%d.%d", 
FTPSESAME_ANCHOR,

(gdb) n
111 strlcpy(pfp.anchor, an, PF_ANCHOR_NAME_SIZE);
(gdb) n
112 strlcpy(pfr.anchor, an, PF_ANCHOR_NAME_SIZE);
(gdb) n
113 strlcpy(pfte.anchor, an, PF_ANCHOR_NAME_SIZE);
(gdb) n
114 strlcpy(pfte.ruleset, "ftpsesame/*", PF_RULESET_NAME_SIZE);
(gdb) n
116 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCXBEGIN, &pft) == -1)
(gdb) n
117 return (0);
(gdb) n
116 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCXBEGIN, &pft) == -1)
(gdb) n
118 pfr.ticket = pfte.ticket;
(gdb) n
120 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCBEGINADDRS, &pfp) == -1)
(gdb) n
121 return (0);
(gdb) n
120 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCBEGINADDRS, &pfp) == -1)
(gdb) n
122 pfr.pool_ticket = pfp.ticket;
(gdb) n
124 if (src != NULL && dst != NULL && d_port != 0) {
(gdb) n
125 memcpy(&pfr.rule.src.addr.v.a.addr.v4, src, 4);
(gdb) n
126 memcpy(&pfr.rule.dst.addr.v.a.addr.v4, dst, 4);
(gdb) n
166 return (__byte_swap16(_x));
(gdb) n
165 {
(gdb) n
128 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCADDRULE, &pfr) == -1)
(gdb) n
129 return (0);
(gdb) n
128 if (ioctl(dev, DIOCADDRULE, &pfr) == -1)
(gdb) n
142 }
(gdb) n
servertalk (s=0x28169000, sbuf=0x28161974 "200 PORT command successful. 
Consider using PASV.") at errno.h:52

52  return (&errno);
(gdb) n
51  {
(gdb) n
#1 filter_allow failed: Invalid argument
201 }
(gdb) n
process_pkt (notused=0x0, h=0xa, p=0x28161954 "") at ftpsesame.c:438
438 s->clientbuf[0] = '\0';
(gdb) n
439 }

Re: anoncvs access info?

[Simon 'corecode' Schubert]

On 30.08.2006, at 22:12, Csaba Henk wrote:

Sort of funny -- what if one does prefer getting the source via plain
old CVS? If there is anoncvs service, I think it would be helpful to
display the CVS command for checking out the source.

[...]
Also in the latter case, is there any convenient way to check out just 
a small

portion of the code (eg., just one bottom-level subdirectory)?


I am serving anoncvs via ssh on chlamydia: 
  maybe the rsync feed could 
also be used, but I doubt it.


cheers
  simon

--
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Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Confusion over encodings, utf-8, etc.

[Bill Hacker]

Jonas Trollvik wrote:

Im experiencing troubles with nfs charset conversion too.
Files with swedish characters doesnt show up correctly on my macbook
when mounting over nfs. I've set up the nfsd as explained in freebsd
manuals. Is there a way to set the charset conversion?

//Jonas




Lots of easy-to-find info on NFS about locking and such, but it took some 
googling to find 'clear and definitive' character-encoding info:


RFC 3010 snippet:

1.1.3.  File System Model

   The general file system model used for the NFS version 4 protocol is
   the same as previous versions.  The server file system is
   hierarchical with the regular files contained within being treated as
   opaque byte streams.  In a slight departure, file and directory names
   are encoded with UTF-8 to deal with the basics of
   internationalization.


UTF-8 should provide transparency across National Languages, but only IF it was 
actually used by whomever named the file(s) in question.


Elsewhere, previous versions are descibed as using ascii, with NULL forbidden, 
and the '/' reserved to delimit directories.


Given that NFS4 has been around for 5 or 6 years, but has not entirely displaced 
NFS3, I guess the first thing to do is confirm which version is in use - ascii 
or UTF-8.


The next thing is to keep in mind that ascii is (almost) a perfect sub-set of 
UTF-8. Or so it was intended...


For sure, a UTF-8 environment is not going to reject, crticize, or alter ascii 
submitted to it.


That indicates to me that a likely cause of the problem you cite is simply that 
of other folks storing files with names that appear to the host to be ascii, but 
that were actually created on a system (WinWoes?) that used a National Language 
code-page that differs from the one(s) you are using.


IOW - other users are simply oblivious to UTF-8.

If you think Swedish is a 'challenge' in this respect, you should try to deal 
with Chinese, where a typical browser of Win-setup menu lists 5 to 7 encodings - 
fewer than half of the 20-odd options that actually exist.


;-)