Re: wiki log of #dragonfly irc channel
On Friday 09 March 2007 17:54, Clemens Hintze wrote: > > countries. I believe the reasoning goes along the lines of: they > > have an > > urgent suspicion that there is evidence against you (the encrypted > > partition ), so they can put you into 'Beugehaft' (= coercive > > detention) > > As I understand it, this cannot happen that way in Germany! If your > e.g. friend are under investigation and they mean *you* have anything > to tell to help them (e.g. you having the passphrase to your friend's > crypto container), they can put you into coercive detention, if you > do not want to coorperate. > > But if they suspect *you* have done something criminal, they cannot > force you to help them to get any evidence against you! AFAIK they made a special law to be allowed to force you to give out passphrases. That law does not take into account the possible existence of a second key, so as long as you hand 'em one key per encrypted file/partition they find, they cannot put you into coercive detention. But I2ANAL, so this is only what i read & heard. regards, Helge
Re: wiki log of #dragonfly irc channel
On Friday 09 March 2007 00:57, Martin P. Hellwig wrote: > Helge Rohde wrote: > > > > Which is precisly why i always envyid that windoze partition encryption > > thingy, cant remember the name now, but it provides 2 keys, one will open > > the (actual) container and another one will open another encrypted > > container with all legal and perfectly harmless files. That way they > > cannot crack down on you for destruction of evidence (what second > > password ? häh? no idea what you mean!). But afaik theres is no such > > thing on any of the BSD systems. Which is sad, because -as you point out > > pretty precisely - it refutes most of the points file/HD encryption could > > be useful for - They will just order you to give them the PW as soon as > > they find an encrypted Partition/File. > > > > regards, > > Helge > > In most western legal systems you are not enforced to participate in > gathering evidence against yourself. Though it could be enforced that > you are not allowed to alter current situation which can influence > evidence against you. In short with a warrant they may be allowed to > search your home and take your computer as evidence but they may not > enforce you to tell them your pass phrase, that contradicts with the > "You have the right to remain silent" thing :-) Yeah, i would have thought so too. But apparently they do bend their rules when the see the need, atleast in Germany they *can* put you into jail until you tell them the passphrase and i have heard similar from other european countries. I believe the reasoning goes along the lines of: they have an urgent suspicion that there is evidence against you (the encrypted partition ), so they can put you into 'Beugehaft' (= coercive detention) until you stop hiding the evidence and cooperate with the authorities. The mentioned two-container system has prooven to be an effective countermeasure (well, atleast until now). cheers, Helge
Re: wiki log of #dragonfly irc channel
On Wednesday 07 March 2007 19:53, Dmitri Nikulin wrote: > All of this is entirely possible. So either you encrypt something and > accidentally reveal the key through normal use or OS compromise, or > you hide the key perfectly and are charged with destruction of > evidence, which is no picnic. They'll know you did it because when the > random seizure occurs, you'll have the encrypted files somewhere. Even > a complete encrypted partition doesn't look like old-file noise - its > apparent entropy is too high. > > Either way, cryptography doesn't really help you once you're under > investigation. At best, it can help you discuss questionable issues > without being caught by the many indiscriminate monitoring systems out > there, but it takes a lot less than cryptography. Which is precisly why i always envyid that windoze partition encryption thingy, cant remember the name now, but it provides 2 keys, one will open the (actual) container and another one will open another encrypted container with all legal and perfectly harmless files. That way they cannot crack down on you for destruction of evidence (what second password ? häh? no idea what you mean!). But afaik theres is no such thing on any of the BSD systems. Which is sad, because -as you point out pretty precisely - it refutes most of the points file/HD encryption could be useful for - They will just order you to give them the PW as soon as they find an encrypted Partition/File. regards, Helge
