Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Hello! I think E17 + Firefox is a good solution. It's fast, looks good and it's unique and pkgsrc/wip/e17 works fine on my DragonFly machine -- ThEgRaZe
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Louisa Luciani wrote: The GSoC is now upon us and so it is time to hear what you guys would like to see on the new and improved: DragonFly The X Edition Live-CD ;) Since I do not want to start an unmanageable discussion, I'd like to receive your replies privately so that I can return with the compiled results, and the discussion can continue from there. Everyone's input is valuable, so please, the more mail the better. Basically, I have four questions: 1. What tools do you, as a developer want available? 2. What programs do you, as a casual/power user want available? 3. What DragonFly specific features are worth including? fairq, vkernels, hammer preview, +more ? 4. Any other random ideas or opinions concerning Live-CDs? You can now find all the suggestions I have received so far here: http://wiki.dragonflybsd.org/index.cgi/LiveDVDGSoC feel free to add stuff under 'suggestions'. Perhaps we can begin by discussing the desktop environment/window manager (Everyone who has emailed me so far has a different opinion on this). e.g. What are your experiences? Do we want more qt or gtk programs? -- Louisa Luciani www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 12:34:11PM +0200, Louisa Luciani wrote: Perhaps we can begin by discussing the desktop environment/window manager (Everyone who has emailed me so far has a different opinion on this). e.g. What are your experiences? Do we want more qt or gtk programs? I think using qt/kde would be easier. As the size does not count to much on a DVD using 100+ gnome apps would be a bit harder. So I would start with KDE if I were you. xfce4 is also a good one imo and should be also faster than kde, but i've never tried kde4. And the most important is ratpoison of course :) -- voroskoi
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
I think using qt/kde would be easier. As the size does not count to much on a DVD using 100+ gnome apps would be a bit harder. So I would start with KDE if I were you. xfce4 is also a good one imo and should be also faster than kde, but i've never tried kde4. And the most important is ratpoison of course :) I think using Gnome would be better than KDE. Firstly, all popular apps use gtk+ like: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Xchat, Wireshark, gvim, Ekiga, F-Spot, Gimp, and much more. Secondly, (if we had a compatible HAL) gnome has a lot nicer services like NetworkManager, gvfs (volume-manager), power-manager, bluetooth-manager and more. Lastly, KDE is oftentimes quite ugly and has way too many buttons. In so far as simple window-managers are concerned, there are are newer cooler ones that good 'ol blackbox and ratpoison, such as: wm/awesome (lightweight) and wip/e17 (almost lightweight). My vote is on one big one: meta-pkgs/gnome and one small one: wm/awesome -- Robert Luciani Chalmers University of Technology, SWE Department of Computer Science and Engineering http://www.rluciani.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Robert Luciani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think using qt/kde would be easier. As the size does not count to much on a DVD using 100+ gnome apps would be a bit harder. So I would start with KDE if I were you. xfce4 is also a good one imo and should be also faster than kde, but i've never tried kde4. And the most important is ratpoison of course :) I think using Gnome would be better than KDE. Firstly, all popular apps use gtk+ like: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Xchat, Wireshark, gvim, Ekiga, F-Spot, Gimp, and much more. Secondly, (if we had a compatible HAL) gnome has a lot nicer services like NetworkManager, gvfs (volume-manager), power-manager, bluetooth-manager and more. Lastly, KDE is oftentimes quite ugly and has way too many buttons. In so far as simple window-managers are concerned, there are are newer cooler ones that good 'ol blackbox and ratpoison, such as: wm/awesome (lightweight) and wip/e17 (almost lightweight). My vote is on one big one: meta-pkgs/gnome and one small one: wm/awesome Oh, is awesome smaller than wmii3? Best Regards, sephe -- Live Free or Die
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 04:13:11PM +0200, Robert Luciani wrote: I think using Gnome would be better than KDE. Firstly, all popular apps use gtk+ like: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Xchat, Wireshark, gvim, Ekiga, F-Spot, Gimp, and much more. Well, these depends on gtk+2, not gnome. It's quite obvious that you can not live without gtk. I mean I can hardly imagine any desktop machine without gtk. Secondly, (if we had a compatible HAL) gnome has a lot nicer services like NetworkManager, gvfs (volume-manager), power-manager, bluetooth-manager and more. OK, I'm not too familiar with these. Lastly, KDE is oftentimes quite ugly and has way too many buttons. I could argue on that, but as I prefer the lightweight things it does not really affects me. Anyway choose the one you use more often, so you will know how things should work and probably also how to fix the bugs popping up. In so far as simple window-managers are concerned, there are are newer cooler ones that good 'ol blackbox and ratpoison, such as: wm/awesome (lightweight) and wip/e17 (almost lightweight). Awesome is good with a proper config file. I only tried once. As for e17: I would not use it. I'm the e17 maintainer in frugalware and e17 is alpha, maximum beta. So it's just not ready. And there are not much apps written for EFL, so it just does not worth the work. Just my 0.02. My vote is on one big one: meta-pkgs/gnome and one small one: wm/awesome Well, it's your call. Whatever you choose is good for me. -- voroskoi
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
On Mon, June 2, 2008 6:34 am, Louisa Luciani wrote: Perhaps we can begin by discussing the desktop environment/window manager (Everyone who has emailed me so far has a different opinion on this). e.g. What are your experiences? Do we want more qt or gtk programs? I don't want to drown the user in choices; the whole reason for a Live disk like this is to let the user get started doing stuff, and not have to take time picking window managers and other programs. Any window manger will work, as long as it remains the same. Knowing what the interface will look like is very valuable when troubleshooting or writing documentation; nobody wants to have to rewrite instructions three times for every window manager that might be running. My concern (and this is possible with any WM) is that it recognizably looks like a DragonFly system. There should be some obviously available READMEs on the desktop; links to the website, a desktop background pulled from the ones we have saved in cvs:/site/save - etc.
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
:I don't want to drown the user in choices; the whole reason for a Live :disk like this is to let the user get started doing stuff, and not have to :take time picking window managers and other programs. : :Any window manger will work, as long as it remains the same. Knowing what :the interface will look like is very valuable when troubleshooting or :writing documentation; nobody wants to have to rewrite instructions three :times for every window manager that might be running. : :My concern (and this is possible with any WM) is that it recognizably :looks like a DragonFly system. There should be some obviously available :READMEs on the desktop; links to the website, a desktop background pulled :from the ones we have saved in cvs:/site/save - etc. Yes, this is my general feeling too. I am not going to advocate one particular window manager over another. In fact I would go as far as to say that the one doing the grind is the one doing the chosing, there, and I'll be happy with whatever is chosen :-). -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
I think guys, we should use KDE 4.x for the GUI on the livecd. Petr On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:45:31 am VOROSKOI Andras wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 04:13:11PM +0200, Robert Luciani wrote: I think using Gnome would be better than KDE. Firstly, all popular apps use gtk+ like: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Xchat, Wireshark, gvim, Ekiga, F-Spot, Gimp, and much more. Well, these depends on gtk+2, not gnome. It's quite obvious that you can not live without gtk. I mean I can hardly imagine any desktop machine without gtk. Secondly, (if we had a compatible HAL) gnome has a lot nicer services like NetworkManager, gvfs (volume-manager), power-manager, bluetooth-manager and more. OK, I'm not too familiar with these. Lastly, KDE is oftentimes quite ugly and has way too many buttons. I could argue on that, but as I prefer the lightweight things it does not really affects me. Anyway choose the one you use more often, so you will know how things should work and probably also how to fix the bugs popping up. In so far as simple window-managers are concerned, there are are newer cooler ones that good 'ol blackbox and ratpoison, such as: wm/awesome (lightweight) and wip/e17 (almost lightweight). Awesome is good with a proper config file. I only tried once. As for e17: I would not use it. I'm the e17 maintainer in frugalware and e17 is alpha, maximum beta. So it's just not ready. And there are not much apps written for EFL, so it just does not worth the work. Just my 0.02. My vote is on one big one: meta-pkgs/gnome and one small one: wm/awesome Well, it's your call. Whatever you choose is good for me.
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:49 AM, Petr Janda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think guys, we should use KDE 4.x for the GUI on the livecd. Petr +1 for KDE 4.x K.
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Karthik Subramanian wrote: On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:49 AM, Petr Janda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think guys, we should use KDE 4.x for the GUI on the livecd. Petr +1 for KDE 4.x KDE committer hat on Wow! I see a lot of resources coming to make KDE 4 work on DragonFly ... FYI, even Qt 4.4 doesn't work correctly yet on DragonFly. /all hats off Seriously, this discussion is irrelevant to the project IMHO. LiveCD/DVD project should create infrastructure for building CD and DVD images with whatever packages I, as iso builder, would like to see on it. just my 2c, -- Hasso Tepper
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Jost Tobias Springenberg wrote: Another feature that might be worth thinking of is the possibility to easily re-spin the dvd. Such that you can download it use it, if you like you can install it and after you have used it for some time you might think of applications that you need which are not there or things that you do not need/want. In such a case an easy mechanism to add/remove pieces of software to the dvd would definitely be worth-while! Another opportunity (which may be easier to implement) is to have the ability to store configuration files somewhere in a way that you can at least customize certain parts of the environment. Maybe those suggestions also take it too far, but that is what came to my mind. Greetings, Tobias That would definitely be nice. Ubuntu's LiveCD allows you to boot in persistent mode by using a USB-drive (or alternatively a loopback file). Perhaps something similar can be implemented. -- Louisa Luciani www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
What's the purpose of this LiveCD? Who's it targeting? Seems like a bit of a shotgun approach for everyone to submit what they want on it. It's much easier to determine what should be on it when it's got some very clear goals. I tend to use LiveCDs for: - fixing problems (though I use bootable USB for the most part nowadays) - using systems that are otherwise 'locked down' such as university pcs/etc to browser / listen to music / whatever may otherwise not work - test out a new OS, or show the OS off to others Those 3 uses alone would totally change either what's provided, or require a boot menu at least. For fixing a PC, you'd want the most stable kernel and minimal drivers (no audio, for example) and some decent recovery and diagnostic tools (archivers, file system drivers, etc). For an os replacement you'd want all drivers and very few beta features unless they really enhance the experience. For testing the OS or showing it off, you might want all the neat new features (hammer, vkernels, etc). There would be other uses, like instant clusters, etc, that would have yet more/other requirements. Anyway, I'll still send in what I want on it, but thought I'd add my two cents :) Best Regards, Ben Cadieux
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Matthew Dillon wrote: :The GSoC is now upon us and so it is time to hear what you guys would :like to see on the new and improved: :DragonFly The X Edition Live-CD Is it going to be a CD or a DVD ? That's an important distinction. Personally I think a special-edition Live-CD is a wonderful idea, but it should be a DVD rather then a CD in order to be able to fit everything in without having to resort to massive compression trickery (which would probably not be enough anyway, for a CD). I would be nice if the Live-CD would fit in about 1.35 GB, so it could be written to one of those mini DVDs which have only 8 cm diameter. Those fit more easily in your pocket and are very convenient to carry with you for emergencency, recovery purposes and similar. (The only problem is that they can't be used with slot-in drives, but those are rare, fortunately.) On the other hand, there are still some machines that only have CD-ROM drives (not DVD). Maybe those could be supported with a stripped-down version of the DVD, e.g. by omitting some cool-but-not-important stuff (some script could generate this automatically). Just my 2 cents. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Oliver Fromme wrote: On the other hand, there are still some machines that only have CD-ROM drives (not DVD). Maybe those could be supported with a stripped-down version of the DVD, e.g. by omitting some cool-but-not-important stuff (some script could generate this automatically). In the interest of not getting distracted by the size discussion, I suggest targetting a 1.35GB size, but not worrying really about any size constraints. I could imagine that when the DVD is ready, some compression driver pops up in the kernel, to make it work on CDs as well :) cheers simon -- Serve - BSD +++ RENT this banner advert +++ASCII Ribbon /\ Work - Mac +++ space for low €€€ NOW!1 +++ Campaign \ / Party Enjoy Relax | http://dragonflybsd.org Against HTML \ Dude 2c 2 the max ! http://golden-apple.biz Mail + News / \
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Simon 'corecode' Schubert wrote: Oliver Fromme wrote: On the other hand, there are still some machines that only have CD-ROM drives (not DVD). Maybe those could be supported with a stripped-down version of the DVD, e.g. by omitting some cool-but-not-important stuff (some script could generate this automatically). In the interest of not getting distracted by the size discussion, I suggest targetting a 1.35GB size, but not worrying really about any size constraints. I could imagine that when the DVD is ready, some compression driver pops up in the kernel, to make it work on CDs as well :) cheers simon Perhaps we could have the liveDVD as the default platform then and use techniques (compression/omission) to make liveCDs compatible? It would be nice to create a very comprehensive environment in the live session that would encompass all the needs of our current community. We'll see in a short while if many people would like to have the big ones included like OpenOffice, Gnome, and more. Thanks again! -- Louisa Luciani www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
: Perhaps we could have the liveDVD as the default platform then and : use techniques (compression/omission) to make liveCDs compatible? : :Yes, that's exactly what I meant to say. : :Best regards : Oliver : :-- :Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. I'd say just go for the liveDVD and not worry about the CD at all. We would still be releasing the basic CD version, but I've always also wanted to release a DVD version that included the full source tree (for posterity) and as many packages as it is possible to stuff in there, possibly even pre-installed and ready to run. Even with compression there are serious limits to what can be stuffed onto a Live CD, and I don't think it is really worth the effort for an 'X' edition. This would also create a good distinction between the base CD and the X edition. People would know that the 'X' edition was DVD-only and had just about everything in it. -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GSoC: LiveCD
The GSoC is now upon us and so it is time to hear what you guys would like to see on the new and improved: DragonFly The X Edition Live-CD ;) Since I do not want to start an unmanageable discussion, I'd like to receive your replies privately so that I can return with the compiled results, and the discussion can continue from there. Everyone's input is valuable, so please, the more mail the better. Basically, I have four questions: 1. What tools do you, as a developer want available? 2. What programs do you, as a casual/power user want available? 3. What DragonFly specific features are worth including? fairq, vkernels, hammer preview, +more ? 4. Any other random ideas or opinions concerning Live-CDs? -- Louisa Luciani www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
:The GSoC is now upon us and so it is time to hear what you guys would :like to see on the new and improved: :DragonFly The X Edition Live-CD :;) :Louisa Luciani :www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Is it going to be a CD or a DVD ? That's an important distinction. Personally I think a special-edition Live-CD is a wonderful idea, but it should be a DVD rather then a CD in order to be able to fit everything in without having to resort to massive compression trickery (which would probably not be enough anyway, for a CD). -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GSoC: LiveCD
Matthew Dillon wrote: :The GSoC is now upon us and so it is time to hear what you guys would :like to see on the new and improved: :DragonFly The X Edition Live-CD :;) :Louisa Luciani :www.lolaluci.se/[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Is it going to be a CD or a DVD ? That's an important distinction. Personally I think a special-edition Live-CD is a wonderful idea, but it should be a DVD rather then a CD in order to be able to fit everything in without having to resort to massive compression trickery (which would probably not be enough anyway, for a CD). -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] A cool trick that we could do if we use a DVD would be to do what OpenSUSE does. They have a complete disk image that they just copy straight over, which makes their installation the fastest of all the 'big' distros. -- Robert Luciani Chalmers University of Technology, SWE Department of Computer Science and Engineering http://www.rluciani.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
