[libreoffice-users] LibreOffice - Base...
Using LinuxMint v17.0 Qiana qith the MATE DE. Have followed with interest the recent discussins on Base and have decided to try and learn how to use it, using PostGreSQL as the backend. But - and there is always one of those :-) - how many of the multitude of postgrsql files in Synaptic do I need to install, please. David -- David Love Oxymoron: smokeless cigarette -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hello Pikov On 6 août 2014 07:29:17 CEST, Pikov Andropov piko...@gmail.com wrote: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? basically one has more features than the others. They are both stable (hence the change of name) but are in a different state and started at a different date. It is very much like MS Office 2011 and 2013 or a car model with a different serie each year. You can get the abridged and detailed list of features and bug fixes for each version by reading the release notes. Cheers, Charles. -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice - Base...
On 08/05/2014 11:08 PM, David Love wrote: Using LinuxMint v17.0 Qiana qith the MATE DE. Have followed with interest the recent discussins on Base and have decided to try and learn how to use it, using PostGreSQL as the backend. But - and there is always one of those :-) - how many of the multitude of postgrsql files in Synaptic do I need to install, please. David These might be of help: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PostgreSQL http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/18554/how-to-connect-base-to-to-postgresql/ https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+faq/2155 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Am 06.08.2014 07:29, schrieb Pikov Andropov: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? The younger one (fresh) has been forked later from the master development branch. Therefore it obviously has more features. But as it is younger, it is less mature than the earlier (still) branch. If you look into each branch separately, the branch goes through the well known states (alpha, beta, RC, final) for its first release (the x.y.0), but then keeps iterating through several additional (bugfix) releases, from x.y.1 to x.y.6 in most cases. So each branch individually gains increasingly bugfreeness during its individual Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Ahh, so both branches are just as stable as each other? The only difference is that the newer branch has more features? So why do we still have the older branch at all? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 08:23, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Pikov On 6 août 2014 07:29:17 CEST, Pikov Andropov piko...@gmail.com wrote: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? basically one has more features than the others. They are both stable (hence the change of name) but are in a different state and started at a different date. It is very much like MS Office 2011 and 2013 or a car model with a different serie each year. You can get the abridged and detailed list of features and bug fixes for each version by reading the release notes. Cheers, Charles. -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 06:22, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) On 06. August 2014 06:47:59 MESZ, J. Van Brimmer jerry...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Aug 5, 2014 6:42 PM, arakish rmfrun...@gmail.com wrote: It is of my opinion that you should stick with the standards. What is wrong with calling the newest possible stable version Release Candidate, the proven stable version Stable, the unstable beta-tester version Beta? It makes absolutely no sense to me to be different just for the sake of being different. Is not Libre Office already different? Yes, it is a fork from OpenOffice.org, but you are still different. Stick with the standards. This fresh and still horse hoowhee is just that, a big pile of horse hoowhee. As NoOp said, most of you open source developers already make the download page confusing enough without confusing it even further with the horse hoowhee. Just stick with what almost everyone already knows. Quit trying to be new and gritty. It just shows me your stupidity instead of your intelligence. rmfr -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Still-tp4117297p4117877.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi Tom, all, Le 06/08/2014 11:17, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. no, they are on the same page :) Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Finding bugs yes, who would find them else? One version is older and so has been more experienced in all its features and corner cases, another one has more features that need to be tested in real life work to find regressions or bugs on those new features. Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? This is what is done, you, as a user, decide which version is good for you, the older one or the new one. Even with all the tests we are doing before a release, we won't be able to find all the bugs that are triggered by a specific use of the suite, there are too many different ways to use it. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. It does seem to make more sense though. It kinda explains why people might prefer one branch or the other one, which was very unclear from Charles and Florian's posts. It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. The bit about master branch was a bit beyond me but suggested an answer to the older thread about how bug-fixes added to the older branch manage to get into the newer branch. Still i am sure i am not the only one confused by such a thing. So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. Then it also makes sense that people would often prefer to use the younger, less mature branch even though it hasn't had as many bug-fixes added to it. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 09:42, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 07:29, schrieb Pikov Andropov: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? The younger one (fresh) has been forked later from the master development branch. Therefore it obviously has more features. But as it is younger, it is less mature than the earlier (still) branch. If you look into each branch separately, the branch goes through the well known states (alpha, beta, RC, final) for its first release (the x.y.0), but then keeps iterating through several additional (bugfix) releases, from x.y.1 to x.y.6 in most cases. So each branch individually gains increasingly bugfreeness during its individual Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) How do new users know what the difference is between the 2 branches? Clearly it is not so easy for new people to figure it out otherwise we wouldn't keep on having to answer this same question from so many new users. As a longer-term users i feel sufficiently experienced to know which branch i prefer but how is a new user expected to know the difference? Also if we are expecting the new users to do all the bug-finding and bug-testing for us who are they doing it for? Who benefits from all the bug-fixing done by these new users? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 10:28, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom, all, Le 06/08/2014 11:17, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. no, they are on the same page :) Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Finding bugs yes, who would find them else? One version is older and so has been more experienced in all its features and corner cases, another one has more features that need to be tested in real life work to find regressions or bugs on those new features. Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? This is what is done, you, as a user, decide which version is good for you, the older one or the new one. Even with all the tests we are doing before a release, we won't be able to find all the bugs that are triggered by a specific use of the suite, there are too many different ways to use it. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi all, Le 06/08/2014 11:42, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) How do new users know what the difference is between the 2 branches? Clearly it is not so easy for new people to figure it out otherwise we wouldn't keep on having to answer this same question from so many new users. So you answer them and they will know, this is how support works. You'll always have people who don't know what is ctrl+c for when it exists for the same functionality in several software over several years. And you will explain it over and over. Don't think that writing it somewhere will be enough, that won't be read, we all know it. As a longer-term users i feel sufficiently experienced to know which branch i prefer but how is a new user expected to know the difference? Yes, but you keep thinking on the same model: stable vs unstable when both are stable :) change your mind by thinking older in time = more bugfixes, newer in time = more features but more bugs. Also if we are expecting the new users to do all the bug-finding and bug-testing for us who are they doing it for? Who benefits from all the bug-fixing done by these new users? Who do you think? :) the users of course, each bug is triaged and will be fixed one day or another and will find his place in the current version, and will be backported in the older one still in life if there is absolutely no risk or it it's a regression. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) The difference is that Charles is saying that both branches are as stable as each other. Florian was saying that new users have to do the bug-finding on the Fresh branch in order to help it become more stable. Florian's seems to explain what we find on this mailing list = that new users and magazine articles grumbling about bugs and issues quickly settle down when we suggest they move to the Still branch. Some then come back and ask why they weren't pointed to the more stable branch in the first place. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 10:28, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom, all, Le 06/08/2014 11:17, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. no, they are on the same page :) Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Finding bugs yes, who would find them else? One version is older and so has been more experienced in all its features and corner cases, another one has more features that need to be tested in real life work to find regressions or bugs on those new features. Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? This is what is done, you, as a user, decide which version is good for you, the older one or the new one. Even with all the tests we are doing before a release, we won't be able to find all the bugs that are triggered by a specific use of the suite, there are too many different ways to use it. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hello Tom, First, both Nino and Sophie's answers are really good. Mine was just trying to be simple and short. I think, just like Sophie suggested, that you are still thinking along the stable-unstable pattern. My answer, by the way, does not contraddict Nino or Sophie. Let me take two -already used- examples to show you there is no contradiction. MS Office 2011 and MS Office 2013. Both are stable. Both are still up for sale. What's the real difference? More features in MS Office 2013, sure. But both are stable. However 2011 gets more patches, is more tested than Office 2013 (in this case users both pay and get to be guinea pigs). Second example: Chevrolet Impala 2013 and 2011. What's the difference? Well, there are a few cosmetic changes, perhaps one or two equipment that changed; maybe a few more liveries available, but there's also been a set of optimized industrial manufacturing processes that have been improved between 2012 and 2013. Note: both are stable, aka. fit to have millions of people driving these cars. Are these drivers guinea-pigs? Yes in a sense. I challenge you to find any sort of distribution process of manufactured good, service, software, where uers or customers are not guinea pigs in one way or another; Free Software is just really transparent and honest about it, because after all, you're not paying for anything when using it. Hope this helped, Charles. Le 06.08.2014 11:38, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. It does seem to make more sense though. It kinda explains why people might prefer one branch or the other one, which was very unclear from Charles and Florian's posts. It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. The bit about master branch was a bit beyond me but suggested an answer to the older thread about how bug-fixes added to the older branch manage to get into the newer branch. Still i am sure i am not the only one confused by such a thing. So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. Then it also makes sense that people would often prefer to use the younger, less mature branch even though it hasn't had as many bug-fixes added to it. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 09:42, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 07:29, schrieb Pikov Andropov: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? The younger one (fresh) has been forked later from the master development branch. Therefore it obviously has more features. But as it is younger, it is less mature than the earlier (still) branch. If you look into each branch separately, the branch goes through the well known states (alpha, beta, RC, final) for its first release (the x.y.0), but then keeps iterating through several additional (bugfix) releases, from x.y.1 to x.y.6 in most cases. So each branch individually gains increasingly bugfreeness during its individual Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Am 06.08.2014 11:38, schrieb Tom Davies: This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. No. See below: [...] It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. By clicking on the graphics you come to its upload page with all former versions: just chose the one you want to see, e.g. this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/2/2c/20130819233457!LibOReleaseLifecycle.png So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. exactly. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Maybe it's about the usage of the word stable. Charles uses it in kind of a strict sense in software development: a software may be called stable if no crasher bugs are reported/open. (I don't know the exact actual definition in LibreOffice as I did not find it explicitly written somewhere). Florian simply assumes that the state stable is reached after the 6th bugfix release. So their definitions seemingly differ and it might be considered helpful to work on a common definition. But there is no doubt that both try to use it according to definition (or presumable definition). You seem to use it in an undefined way, kind of a common sense. Which is also right, but - as is the nature of undefined terms - does not reflect the product's state but rather your (or someone else's) expectations. So, strictly spoken, Charles/Florian are right. But commonly spoken, you are right. There is additionally the problem of comparing two differend kinds of fruit: it's difficult to compare the maturity of oranges and apples. Strictly spoken, you cannot say, this orange is more mature than this apple. In this analogy, every minor branch *is* a different fruit as it has different features from other minor branches :-) Therefore one simply shouldn't compare them regarding stableness. It will always stay an opinion showing that the person uttering it does not really understand what she is talking about ;-) Regards, Nino omg, what a long posting ,-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: the release 4.3 in PPA launchpad
Le 05/08/2014 21:24, Tom Davies a écrit : Thats an interesting list of add-ons/Extensions or additional packages. Is there any easy clue as to what they do? I personally suspect they do add something positive to LibreOffice and might consider adding them to my accessodf 0.1-4ubuntu1~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-04-05) Add-on to check accessibility compliance of ODF Writer documents (and other formats supported by the file filters. boost1.54 1.54.0-2ubuntu3~precise1Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) clucene-core2.3.3.4-2~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2012-09-01) developer libraries that were updated to take into account or that were required for changes in LO code to function dh-exec 0.12~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) dh-python 1.20140128-1ubuntu8~ctools1 Scott Moser (3 hours ago) No idea what these two do. doxygen 1.8.7-2~precise1Rico Tzschichholz (3 hours ago) Tool for creating documentation from code. glew1.10.0-3~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (3 hours ago) graphite2 1.2.4-1ubuntu1~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) developer libraries that take care of openGL and coretext font rendering AFAIK Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? In the case of Chevrolet Impala 2013 and 2011 i seriously doubt that both models are being manufactured at the same time. Even if they are then why would people choose the older model? With MS Office 2007 and 2010 it's the (trial version of) 2013 that people are given on new machines purchased from a shop. There are good reasons and advantages to buying the 2007 or 2010 = if nearly everyone you do business with or share files with uses 2007 then using 2010 or 2013 is going to cause problems. Similarly with the 2010. So you kinda have to get the same one as everyone else. This sort of nonsense doesn't happen with LibreOffice or other office suites (unless sometimes if you deliberately use newer features) So we have been given good reasons for using the Fresh branch, such as getting all the newest features. The question remains as to why people would choose to install the Still branch. Since there doesn't seem to be a good reason for installing the Still branch why do we still offer it when all it seems to do is cause confusion? What are the pros and cons of the Still branch in comparison to the Fresh branch? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 11:38, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 11:38, schrieb Tom Davies: This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. No. See below: [...] It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. By clicking on the graphics you come to its upload page with all former versions: just chose the one you want to see, e.g. this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/2/2c/20130819233457!LibOReleaseLifecycle.png So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. exactly. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Maybe it's about the usage of the word stable. Charles uses it in kind of a strict sense in software development: a software may be called stable if no crasher bugs are reported/open. (I don't know the exact actual definition in LibreOffice as I did not find it explicitly written somewhere). Florian simply assumes that the state stable is reached after the 6th bugfix release. So their definitions seemingly differ and it might be considered helpful to work on a common definition. But there is no doubt that both try to use it according to definition (or presumable definition). You seem to use it in an undefined way, kind of a common sense. Which is also right, but - as is the nature of undefined terms - does not reflect the product's state but rather your (or someone else's) expectations. So, strictly spoken, Charles/Florian are right. But commonly spoken, you are right. There is additionally the problem of comparing two differend kinds of fruit: it's difficult to compare the maturity of oranges and apples. Strictly spoken, you cannot say, this orange is more mature than this apple. In this analogy, every minor branch *is* a different fruit as it has different features from other minor branches :-) Therefore one simply shouldn't compare them regarding stableness. It will always stay an opinion showing that the person uttering it does not really understand what she is talking about ;-) Regards, Nino omg, what a long posting ,-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Ok, in the case of fruit, say apples and oranges. There are clear differences between them. They might be available (or better) in different seasons. One is usually orange and the other usually green or red. One might be juicier than the other. One more acidic than the other. Different tastes and textures. Most of us are very clear about the differences and can easily make an informed decision about which is preferred at a given moment. So again the question has apparently gone back to What is the advantage of the Still branch. Why would people choose it or what circumstances would suit Still better than Fresh? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 11:38, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 11:38, schrieb Tom Davies: This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. No. See below: [...] It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. By clicking on the graphics you come to its upload page with all former versions: just chose the one you want to see, e.g. this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/archive/2/2c/20130819233457!LibOReleaseLifecycle.png So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. exactly. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Maybe it's about the usage of the word stable. Charles uses it in kind of a strict sense in software development: a software may be called stable if no crasher bugs are reported/open. (I don't know the exact actual definition in LibreOffice as I did not find it explicitly written somewhere). Florian simply assumes that the state stable is reached after the 6th bugfix release. So their definitions seemingly differ and it might be considered helpful to work on a common definition. But there is no doubt that both try to use it according to definition (or presumable definition). You seem to use it in an undefined way, kind of a common sense. Which is also right, but - as is the nature of undefined terms - does not reflect the product's state but rather your (or someone else's) expectations. So, strictly spoken, Charles/Florian are right. But commonly spoken, you are right. There is additionally the problem of comparing two differend kinds of fruit: it's difficult to compare the maturity of oranges and apples. Strictly spoken, you cannot say, this orange is more mature than this apple. In this analogy, every minor branch *is* a different fruit as it has different features from other minor branches :-) Therefore one simply shouldn't compare them regarding stableness. It will always stay an opinion showing that the person uttering it does not really understand what she is talking about ;-) Regards, Nino omg, what a long posting ,-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
The weird thing is that Java is havely used in the Oracle databases. How com they can have quite reliable databases... Op 5 aug. 2014, om 15:35 heeft Tom Davies het volgende geschreven: Hi :) +1 I think Base nearly does do the best way around. The only problem is that the easiest thing, the embedded database, is currently dangerously broken. The devs appear to be addressing that although, obviously, they can't fix the whole thing all at one go. The first step seems reasonably well chosen to get the main bulk away from java. I'm sure Java didn't used to be so awful. It seems to have nose-dived since Oracle took over but maybe that is preparation for monetising it and that is a reasonable thing for a profit-making company to want to do. It's like the story of the scorpion and the fox crossing a river. The scorpion stings the fox and as they both sink the fox asks why. The scorpion replies that it's his nature to sting and he can't help it. So can we really blame a profit-making company from attempting to subvert a free product it owns in order to later be able to sell an enterprise or professional version? It's a shame openJava can't escape and gather a huge community as LibreOffice did back when OpenOffice was owned by Oracle. Base currently allows users to start of by using an internal back-end and then move it to an external tool when they are ready. [shrugs] Seems a good plan to me. Regards from Tom :) On 5 August 2014 13:33, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice - Base...
Using LinuxMint v17.0 Qiana qith the MATE DE. Have followed with interest the recent discussins on Base and have decided to try and learn how to use it, using PostGreSQL as the backend. But - and there is always one of those :-) - how many of the multitude of postgrsql files in Synaptic do I need to install, please. Based on whether it's the Ubuntu-based or the Debian-based Mint variant, installation instructions are here: http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux/ If you're new to PostgreSQL, it's probably a good idea to subscribe to the mailinglists: http://www.postgresql.org/list/ Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Bullshit. There are plenty of cross-platform RDBMSes that are not implemented in this grotesque proprietary abomination that Java is. My comment, or Sun's decision ? Sun's decision. Compulsive Javamania. There are bulkloads of programming languages and frameworks that allow cross-platform application development way better than Java will ever do. How many of those cross-platform RDBMs were : - available in 2004 (when the decision was made to upgrade the OOo1 Base iteration to something new) ? Postgres (back then without SQL) version 1 was released in 1989. And before Postgres there was Ingres from the same developers. That's where the name comes from, after all. - didn't require masses of developer investment time and resources to integrate into the codebase ? The SDBC driver was already there, developed by third-parties. - ran on OSX, Windows and Linux ? PostgreSQL runs on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostgreSQL#Platforms It's even *shipped* with the default installation of MacOS X Server. - weren't Java based ? PostgreSQL isn't. If you're a completely obsessive Java fetishist, you *can* use PL/Java for server-side application logic though. - could be made to run in a single file and be portable across various OSes ? I don't see a reason for the single file requirement. It's installed separately anyway. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: the release 4.3 in PPA launchpad
Hi :) Thanks. Ok so it mostly looks like stuff that i wouldn't notice whether it's there or not but i can easily imagine some people would prefer to have some or other of it. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:07, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote: Le 05/08/2014 21:24, Tom Davies a écrit : Thats an interesting list of add-ons/Extensions or additional packages. Is there any easy clue as to what they do? I personally suspect they do add something positive to LibreOffice and might consider adding them to my accessodf 0.1-4ubuntu1~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-04-05) Add-on to check accessibility compliance of ODF Writer documents (and other formats supported by the file filters. boost1.54 1.54.0-2ubuntu3~precise1Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) clucene-core2.3.3.4-2~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2012-09-01) developer libraries that were updated to take into account or that were required for changes in LO code to function dh-exec 0.12~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) dh-python 1.20140128-1ubuntu8~ctools1 Scott Moser (3 hours ago) No idea what these two do. doxygen 1.8.7-2~precise1Rico Tzschichholz (3 hours ago) Tool for creating documentation from code. glew1.10.0-3~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (3 hours ago) graphite2 1.2.4-1ubuntu1~precise1 Rico Tzschichholz (2014-02-01) developer libraries that take care of openGL and coretext font rendering AFAIK Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Am 06.08.2014 13:07, schrieb Tom Davies: So again the question has apparently gone back to What is the advantage of the Still branch. Why would people choose it or what circumstances would suit Still better than Fresh? The main advantage is its age: it's more mature; it has been in use for a longer time; people know it better; more questions have been answered in all the support forums etc. You see, the main problem is not having two branches, it's having two branches which do not differ too much - just half a year. Therefore, both are rather fresh, there is no really mature version, at least not in the public. So the thing to really complain about is the lack of a really mature (2-3-4 years or more) version! Therefore, all the bug fixing etc does not really improve the stability of the software as branches end their lifetime too soon after receiving their last bugfix update. I'm not sure what the effects would be if there was a Long Time Support version. Maybe, everybody would switch to this LTS verison and bug reporting would decrease dramatically. But maybe also, that peoples' satisfachtion would grow considerably and therefore also commitment and loyalty. Who knows? In a first step I'd very much like the community to decrease the release frequeny to once a year instead of every 6 months. Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Le 06/08/2014 13:00, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? To have less bugs and regressions that make it more sure to use by average users. When you are at the 4th or 6th cycle of a release, you can consider that almost all of the functionalities have been used and if there was bugs or regressions they have been reported and depending on there severity/impact, they have been corrected. Which is not true for the more recent release with less usage and less users, it needs more time and cycles. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Nino, Right on target; I could not have said it better. As for the release pace there is a theory that suggests that slowing it to a rearly rythmn would decrease the intetest of developers. But that is obviously a theory, and cannot be an exact science. Best, Charles. On 6 août 2014 13:50:57 CEST, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 13:07, schrieb Tom Davies: So again the question has apparently gone back to What is the advantage of the Still branch. Why would people choose it or what circumstances would suit Still better than Fresh? The main advantage is its age: it's more mature; it has been in use for a longer time; people know it better; more questions have been answered in all the support forums etc. You see, the main problem is not having two branches, it's having two branches which do not differ too much - just half a year. Therefore, both are rather fresh, there is no really mature version, at least not in the public. So the thing to really complain about is the lack of a really mature (2-3-4 years or more) version! Therefore, all the bug fixing etc does not really improve the stability of the software as branches end their lifetime too soon after receiving their last bugfix update. I'm not sure what the effects would be if there was a Long Time Support version. Maybe, everybody would switch to this LTS verison and bug reporting would decrease dramatically. But maybe also, that peoples' satisfachtion would grow considerably and therefore also commitment and loyalty. Who knows? In a first step I'd very much like the community to decrease the release frequeny to once a year instead of every 6 months. Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
I know that its not LO base specific but can,t find a way how to or example of something like this. What i want using cars as example is to make a search for color,year,doors,model.kilometers driven,cabrio,engine,fuel and so many more options. Who can help me on my way how to set somthing like this up ? Just RTFM. ;- For Base, the manual is at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e8/BH40-BaseHandbook.pdf For relational databases in general, the DB-Main tutorial is pretty good imho: http://tinyurl.com/mrab534 http://tinyurl.com/md84k87 Or just google for a few keywords: http://tinyurl.com/pqdebuj Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Ok, so that sounds like the 4th or 6th cycle of a branch has reduced the bugs and regressions = i think most people would call that making it more stable wouldn't they? Then the point about recent releases having had less usage seems to be saying that it is not quite so stable. Actually that does make a lot of sense. When new features are added it would be surprising if there were no unexpected problems. I think most people would understand that and understand that as being slightly less stable than it will be in the future. That all makes total sense. I am beginning to like the sound of mature branch and young branch. Of course a google search for mature, or young, might bring up some bad sites that we wouldn't want to be associated with. It's annoying because otherwise that might be a really good way of describing the difference between the 2 branches. So i think we still need to try to think of a really short name for each branch that describes what it's advantage is over the other branch. Still vs fizzy don't seem to be popular but was worth a try. SliTaz's stable vs cooking seems to have been rejected already. Stable vs unstable doesn't cover it. Development vs stable suffers the same problem. Has anyone else got ideas? I think it would be great to have a wiki-page or something where people can post their ideas slightly anonymously and then maybe people could vote for which ones they prefer. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:52, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Le 06/08/2014 13:00, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? To have less bugs and regressions that make it more sure to use by average users. When you are at the 4th or 6th cycle of a release, you can consider that almost all of the functionalities have been used and if there was bugs or regressions they have been reported and depending on there severity/impact, they have been corrected. Which is not true for the more recent release with less usage and less users, it needs more time and cycles. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Errr, i think the LTS idea works well as long as there is a 6 monthly release, or at least a much faster-paced release cycle for another branch. The 6 monthly alone is difficult for many people to keep up with, even for big fans, but it does do a lot for excitement and energy. It motivates people to try to get their improvements or new features in quickly and rewards them by getting their ideas out their and being used in the real world extremely quickly. I agree and think that is a big motivator. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 13:16, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) I really like the rapid development rate. I think it does generate more interest and not just amongst the devs. I have probably been sounding really negative in this thread but i have to say that i think everyone here does a fantastic job and LibreOffice is really quite amazing as a result of all the hard work people put in. While there are a few long-running issues and new issues sometimes crop up when new features (and greater compatibility with MS format) are added it seems that most things get sorted out impressively quickly. Joel and the QA team (and the devs, of course) deserve applause for getting the coding error-rate down to the lowest of any project anywhere. I do also like the Ubuntu LTS (=long term support) way of having a special release every 2 years that focusses primarily on stability and that for the next 5 years all bug-patches for any release are ported back to it. It also makes a big splash with changes to the UI (UX?) (and under the bonnet stuff) and as a result gets tons of coverage in the Press with tons of articles anticipating what the big changes are going to be and arguing as to which is the most important or the most shocking or whatever. I think that is the only thing missing from LibreOffice. having something like an LTS might make it far better for both corporate environments and for other people who can't download and install new versions as often as a LibreOffice fan with unlimited broadband might. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:56, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Nino, Right on target; I could not have said it better. As for the release pace there is a theory that suggests that slowing it to a rearly rythmn would decrease the intetest of developers. But that is obviously a theory, and cannot be an exact science. Best, Charles. On 6 août 2014 13:50:57 CEST, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 13:07, schrieb Tom Davies: So again the question has apparently gone back to What is the advantage of the Still branch. Why would people choose it or what circumstances would suit Still better than Fresh? The main advantage is its age: it's more mature; it has been in use for a longer time; people know it better; more questions have been answered in all the support forums etc. You see, the main problem is not having two branches, it's having two branches which do not differ too much - just half a year. Therefore, both are rather fresh, there is no really mature version, at least not in the public. So the thing to really complain about is the lack of a really mature (2-3-4 years or more) version! Therefore, all the bug fixing etc does not really improve the stability of the software as branches end their lifetime too soon after receiving their last bugfix update. I'm not sure what the effects would be if there was a Long Time Support version. Maybe, everybody would switch to this LTS verison and bug reporting would decrease dramatically. But maybe also, that peoples' satisfachtion would grow considerably and therefore also commitment and loyalty. Who knows? In a first step I'd very much like the community to decrease the release frequeny to once a year instead of every 6 months. Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) An rtfm answer that DOES link to documentation is still a bit rude but i like this one. It's the links that make it really useful. Do these links go to the same place? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Base_Handbook https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 13:35, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: I know that its not LO base specific but can,t find a way how to or example of something like this. What i want using cars as example is to make a search for color,year,doors,model.kilometers driven,cabrio,engine,fuel and so many more options. Who can help me on my way how to set somthing like this up ? Just RTFM. ;- For Base, the manual is at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e8/BH40-BaseHandbook.pdf For relational databases in general, the DB-Main tutorial is pretty good imho: http://tinyurl.com/mrab534 http://tinyurl.com/md84k87 Or just google for a few keywords: http://tinyurl.com/pqdebuj Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
We have developed a cycle for each line where we know that x.x.0 is the newest and x.x.6/7 is the most mature of that line. So we should use that idea. Yes we have two lines. Yes there is an idea of maturity vs. younger/fresher Yes the newer line should have more features to work with or a more developed user interface So maybe we could stop thinking this line and that line but focus on how mature/developed the current versions of each line is. Have a little sidebar with this idea of this version is this mature for its line and the other version is this mature for its line. What we need is terms that reflect the idea of the age of the version, or what the cycle number really means. x.x.0 - toddler version of the line x.x.3 - teenager x.x.5 - in college x.x.6/7 - graduated and best working of the line Betas are the newborn version of the line, if you go with the above age description. Can we somehow create terms like that, but in more of a business terminology? On 08/06/2014 08:35 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Ok, so that sounds like the 4th or 6th cycle of a branch has reduced the bugs and regressions = i think most people would call that making it more stable wouldn't they? Then the point about recent releases having had less usage seems to be saying that it is not quite so stable. Actually that does make a lot of sense. When new features are added it would be surprising if there were no unexpected problems. I think most people would understand that and understand that as being slightly less stable than it will be in the future. That all makes total sense. I am beginning to like the sound of mature branch and young branch. Of course a google search for mature, or young, might bring up some bad sites that we wouldn't want to be associated with. It's annoying because otherwise that might be a really good way of describing the difference between the 2 branches. So i think we still need to try to think of a really short name for each branch that describes what it's advantage is over the other branch. Still vs fizzy don't seem to be popular but was worth a try. SliTaz's stable vs cooking seems to have been rejected already. Stable vs unstable doesn't cover it. Development vs stable suffers the same problem. Has anyone else got ideas? I think it would be great to have a wiki-page or something where people can post their ideas slightly anonymously and then maybe people could vote for which ones they prefer. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:52, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Le 06/08/2014 13:00, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? To have less bugs and regressions that make it more sure to use by average users. When you are at the 4th or 6th cycle of a release, you can consider that almost all of the functionalities have been used and if there was bugs or regressions they have been reported and depending on there severity/impact, they have been corrected. Which is not true for the more recent release with less usage and less users, it needs more time and cycles. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hello Tim, Le 06.08.2014 15:04, Kracked_P_P---webmaster a écrit : We have developed a cycle for each line where we know that x.x.0 is the newest and x.x.6/7 is the most mature of that line. So we should use that idea. Yes we have two lines. Yes there is an idea of maturity vs. younger/fresher Yes the newer line should have more features to work with or a more developed user interface So maybe we could stop thinking this line and that line but focus on how mature/developed the current versions of each line is. Have a little sidebar with this idea of this version is this mature for its line and the other version is this mature for its line. What we need is terms that reflect the idea of the age of the version, or what the cycle number really means. x.x.0 - toddler version of the line x.x.3 - teenager x.x.5 - in college x.x.6/7 - graduated and best working of the line Betas are the newborn version of the line, if you go with the above age description. Can we somehow create terms like that, but in more of a business terminology? Indeed we are missing such an explanation. Care to open a wiki page on this? Best, Charles. On 08/06/2014 08:35 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Ok, so that sounds like the 4th or 6th cycle of a branch has reduced the bugs and regressions = i think most people would call that making it more stable wouldn't they? Then the point about recent releases having had less usage seems to be saying that it is not quite so stable. Actually that does make a lot of sense. When new features are added it would be surprising if there were no unexpected problems. I think most people would understand that and understand that as being slightly less stable than it will be in the future. That all makes total sense. I am beginning to like the sound of mature branch and young branch. Of course a google search for mature, or young, might bring up some bad sites that we wouldn't want to be associated with. It's annoying because otherwise that might be a really good way of describing the difference between the 2 branches. So i think we still need to try to think of a really short name for each branch that describes what it's advantage is over the other branch. Still vs fizzy don't seem to be popular but was worth a try. SliTaz's stable vs cooking seems to have been rejected already. Stable vs unstable doesn't cover it. Development vs stable suffers the same problem. Has anyone else got ideas? I think it would be great to have a wiki-page or something where people can post their ideas slightly anonymously and then maybe people could vote for which ones they prefer. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:52, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Le 06/08/2014 13:00, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? To have less bugs and regressions that make it more sure to use by average users. When you are at the 4th or 6th cycle of a release, you can consider that almost all of the functionalities have been used and if there was bugs or regressions they have been reported and depending on there severity/impact, they have been corrected. Which is not true for the more recent release with less usage and less users, it needs more time and cycles. Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) As said in my previous post. The download page is confusing enough. Unconfuse it with the above stages. This fresh and still does not jive with software. In your own words, you are saying that v4.3.x has more features, but may still be quite buggy, thus NOT stable. Although the latest v4.2.x version may have less features, it is much less buggy, thus MORE stable. As said, just stick with the standards. Quit being stupid with these new labels. Fresh and Still has nothing to do with software. In fact, with ALL open source software, I have always found that the very latest release, such as LO v4.3.0, are horrible. Too many bugs and crashes to be useful, despite the new features. Unlike most persons, I NEVER download the latest supposedly stable version. It always proves to NOT be stable, especially when the version number ends with a zero (0). I will always wait until a later version, perhaps v4.3.3. 7734, I have even been known to skip versions. In this case, I might wait until LO v4.4.3. Additionally, I have found that a listing of the bug fixes means very little to me. What about the bugs yet to happen? That is what concerns me the most. Of course, the bugs yet to happen can never be foreseen until they actually do occur. But, I am willing to only use the latest stable version, in this case LO v4.2.6, than a version ending with a 0. I'd rather have the greatest stability versus new features any day. Although I may want the new features, I can wait until the Final Release Candidate is made more stable. Summation: Why not just use the following for your stages? It makes much better sense than what you are trying to use now. Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) rmfr -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Still-tp4117297p4117985.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hello Tom, A few thoughts on the LTS - it's good we are on the users list just for this topic I think. LTS (Long Term Support) is often misunderstood. Canonical introduced the notion of LTS, but few realize that they were able to do so and are able to maintain this kind of version for the sole reason that there are customers directly funding the LTS. In other words, you can have a LTS of Ubuntu because there are people/companies/governments directly paying for it, usually under the form of support contracts. While TDF is not a company, it is also not directly funding development (i.e hiring dozens of developers for instance), nor does it provide professional support. It is thus up to the companies providing support and developing LibreOffice that can provide something like a LTS version. In practice that is what you get with Collabora, Canonical, Red Hat, others like Igalia, Itomig (although I could be wrong, maybe their services are more tailored). Creating a LTS costs money, invested in support and backporting mostly. This money must be found somewhere, and so must the skills necessary for development and support. LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release; but it will produce a set of nice support contracts :-) . I know there is a myth that if a LTS for every major Free Software components was to be released, things would be better and peace would come unto this world, but unfortunately that is not how it works. LTS versions do not imply a better quality and less bugs; they do however imply large upstream contracts and deals. As a note of interest, my previous experience as a board member of the foundation and my current (educated) guess as a contributor have highlighted an interesting pattern: most of of the donations to the Document Foundation do not come from large corporations. They come from regular people and small businesses. We -I won't hesitate to speak on behalf of the entire foundation here- are very grateful to you and all the people who help this project. But *I* cannot help drawing a few observations from this pattern: if we are to satisfy our benefactors, then we are primarily an end-user project (understand: a consumer oriented project) and we should not be craving heftier donations from large deployments in the entreprise. It is something to keep in mind for the future, I think. Best, Charles. Le 06.08.2014 14:41, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Errr, i think the LTS idea works well as long as there is a 6 monthly release, or at least a much faster-paced release cycle for another branch. The 6 monthly alone is difficult for many people to keep up with, even for big fans, but it does do a lot for excitement and energy. It motivates people to try to get their improvements or new features in quickly and rewards them by getting their ideas out their and being used in the real world extremely quickly. I agree and think that is a big motivator. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 13:16, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) I really like the rapid development rate. I think it does generate more interest and not just amongst the devs. I have probably been sounding really negative in this thread but i have to say that i think everyone here does a fantastic job and LibreOffice is really quite amazing as a result of all the hard work people put in. While there are a few long-running issues and new issues sometimes crop up when new features (and greater compatibility with MS format) are added it seems that most things get sorted out impressively quickly. Joel and the QA team (and the devs, of course) deserve applause for getting the coding error-rate down to the lowest of any project anywhere. I do also like the Ubuntu LTS (=long term support) way of having a special release every 2 years that focusses primarily on stability and that for the next 5 years all bug-patches for any release are ported back to it. It also makes a big splash with changes to the UI (UX?) (and under the bonnet stuff) and as a result gets tons of coverage in the Press with tons of articles anticipating what the big changes are going to be and arguing as to which is the most important or the most shocking or whatever. I think that is the only thing missing from LibreOffice. having something like an LTS might make it far better for both corporate environments and for other people who can't download and install new versions as often as a LibreOffice fan with unlimited broadband might. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 12:56, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Nino, Right on target; I could not have said it better. As for the release pace there is a theory that suggests that slowing it to a rearly rythmn would decrease the intetest of developers. But that is obviously a theory, and cannot be an exact science. Best, Charles. On 6 août 2014 13:50:57 CEST, Nino Novak
[libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Le 06/08/2014 13:16, Wolfgang Keller a écrit : The SDBC driver was already there, developed by third-parties. http://www.openoffice.org/dba/drivers/postgresql/ shows the limitations of the driver at the time the decision to move to hsqldb was made, and they were quite severe. In addition, it didn't build on OSX (having tried it myself) at that time (or even for a long time afterwards, in fact not until Lionel tidied up the code within the LibreOffice project). Anyway, all moot now. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Each branch has its own release candidates, even its final release candiates. Each branch is autonomous (has its master branch, if you will), and has its stable releases. BTW: we don't reinvent the wheel here, this is how development works and the use of terminology we use (alphas, betas, release candidates) is pretty standard. We are evaluating the use of names for each branch, but it is useless to call us stupid or use definitive statements like the ones used below. Thanks, Charles. Le 06.08.2014 15:49, arakish a écrit : So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) As said in my previous post. The download page is confusing enough. Unconfuse it with the above stages. This fresh and still does not jive with software. In your own words, you are saying that v4.3.x has more features, but may still be quite buggy, thus NOT stable. Although the latest v4.2.x version may have less features, it is much less buggy, thus MORE stable. As said, just stick with the standards. Quit being stupid with these new labels. Fresh and Still has nothing to do with software. In fact, with ALL open source software, I have always found that the very latest release, such as LO v4.3.0, are horrible. Too many bugs and crashes to be useful, despite the new features. Unlike most persons, I NEVER download the latest supposedly stable version. It always proves to NOT be stable, especially when the version number ends with a zero (0). I will always wait until a later version, perhaps v4.3.3. 7734, I have even been known to skip versions. In this case, I might wait until LO v4.4.3. Additionally, I have found that a listing of the bug fixes means very little to me. What about the bugs yet to happen? That is what concerns me the most. Of course, the bugs yet to happen can never be foreseen until they actually do occur. But, I am willing to only use the latest stable version, in this case LO v4.2.6, than a version ending with a 0. I'd rather have the greatest stability versus new features any day. Although I may want the new features, I can wait until the Final Release Candidate is made more stable. Summation: Why not just use the following for your stages? It makes much better sense than what you are trying to use now. Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) rmfr -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Still-tp4117297p4117985.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) +1 too. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 05:47, J. Van Brimmer jerry...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Aug 5, 2014 6:42 PM, arakish rmfrun...@gmail.com wrote: It is of my opinion that you should stick with the standards. What is wrong with calling the newest possible stable version Release Candidate, the proven stable version Stable, the unstable beta-tester version Beta? It makes absolutely no sense to me to be different just for the sake of being different. Is not Libre Office already different? Yes, it is a fork from OpenOffice.org, but you are still different. Stick with the standards. This fresh and still horse hoowhee is just that, a big pile of horse hoowhee. As NoOp said, most of you open source developers already make the download page confusing enough without confusing it even further with the horse hoowhee. Just stick with what almost everyone already knows. Quit trying to be new and gritty. It just shows me your stupidity instead of your intelligence. rmfr -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Still-tp4117297p4117877.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:05:08 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly it is not so easy for new people to figure it out otherwise we wouldn't keep on having to answer this same question from so many new users. So you answer them and they will know, this is how support works. This works for support *after* they have gotten the software, this should *never* be the case for people who want to download the software, that choice should *always* be pretty obvious. If I go to a page to download some software I want, and can't figure out which version I should use, or at least have some sort of idea about the choice being made, I consider just giving up on the software. I'm sure most people are the same. Yes, but you keep thinking on the same model: stable vs unstable when both are stable :) change your mind by thinking older in time = more bugfixes, newer in time = more features but more bugs. But you're getting the very definition of stable wrong: more bugs = less stable So this really *is* a debate about stable vs unstable. That's not to say that the younger product is *unstable*, but it does mean that the older product is *more stable*. Paul -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
I don't know the cars in question, so maybe that specific case is different. But in my general experience, when two car models are sold, the only reason the older one is still sold is because they have unsold vehicles that they need to get rid of, so they offer them at a lower price, and the only reason to get an older model is because it is cheaper. There is *no* other reason, unless parts are different, in which case the older model's parts are usually cheaper as well, although sometimes the reverse is true. The older one is in no way safer, usually the reverse. In the case of Office 2011 vs. 2013, again, I haven't bought Office for so long I don't know the specifics, but I would be very surprised if price wasn't the only reason the older software was still sold. In most cases where a new version like that is brought out, the older version is due to be retired pretty soon. Unless there is a specific feature or compatability issue, in which case it is (or should be) clearly stated to potential buyers. Paul On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:16:53 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Tom, First, both Nino and Sophie's answers are really good. Mine was just trying to be simple and short. I think, just like Sophie suggested, that you are still thinking along the stable-unstable pattern. My answer, by the way, does not contraddict Nino or Sophie. Let me take two -already used- examples to show you there is no contradiction. MS Office 2011 and MS Office 2013. Both are stable. Both are still up for sale. What's the real difference? More features in MS Office 2013, sure. But both are stable. However 2011 gets more patches, is more tested than Office 2013 (in this case users both pay and get to be guinea pigs). Second example: Chevrolet Impala 2013 and 2011. What's the difference? Well, there are a few cosmetic changes, perhaps one or two equipment that changed; maybe a few more liveries available, but there's also been a set of optimized industrial manufacturing processes that have been improved between 2012 and 2013. Note: both are stable, aka. fit to have millions of people driving these cars. Are these drivers guinea-pigs? Yes in a sense. I challenge you to find any sort of distribution process of manufactured good, service, software, where uers or customers are not guinea pigs in one way or another; Free Software is just really transparent and honest about it, because after all, you're not paying for anything when using it. Hope this helped, Charles. Le 06.08.2014 11:38, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) This seems to contradict what both Charles and what Florian Reisinger were saying. It does seem to make more sense though. It kinda explains why people might prefer one branch or the other one, which was very unclear from Charles and Florian's posts. It also kinda explains the graphic on the; https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan page, although that graphic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do other people understand it? There used to be a neat little graph which kinda boggled the eyes at first but began to make sense after staring at it for a while. The bit about master branch was a bit beyond me but suggested an answer to the older thread about how bug-fixes added to the older branch manage to get into the newer branch. Still i am sure i am not the only one confused by such a thing. So Nino's answer suggests that some people might prefer the branch that has matured because by that time it is more stable. So releases with a higher 3rd digit are more mature, more stable and less likely to have problems. The only downside is that you get less features. Then it also makes sense that people would often prefer to use the younger, less mature branch even though it hasn't had as many bug-fixes added to it. However this seems to contradict what Charles was saying about both branches being fully stable. So which is wrong? Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 09:42, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Am 06.08.2014 07:29, schrieb Pikov Andropov: Florian Reisinger wrote on 8/6/2014 1:22 AM: Hi, The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has, we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the Fresh version in order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M. So how to say you can use the feature packed fresh? It is not an RC it is an tested final release So yes, we have a different model, so we need different names then the standard :) What are the differences between the two branches? The younger one (fresh) has been forked later from the master development branch. Therefore it obviously has more features. But as it is younger, it is less mature than the earlier (still) branch. If you look into
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:56:13 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release No, not magically, but by the very nature of it being around for longer it will, in the end, result in a more stable product. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On 8/6/2014 9:49 AM, arakish rmfrun...@gmail.com wrote: Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) Or go the Debian way... 4.3 would be the 'Testing' branch... 4.2.x would be the Stable branch... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [MariaDB Announce] MariaDB 5.5.39 now available
Hi :) Another stable release from the MariaDb people. MySql is widely used on many web-hosting companies and in many other places. However it is owned by Oracle so many people want to move away from it. MariaDb is a community-owned drop-in replacement that should be easy to migrate to. I've only known of 1 or 2 people that actually tried it and they said it was surprisingly smooth. Not exactly a large sample to judge from! Is anyone able to inform this mailing-list each time Postgresql does a stable release? I know some people grumble about my announcements about MariaDb ones but other people here appreciate it and i suspect it would be much the same for Postgresql announcements. Regards from Tom :) On 5 August 2014 19:09, MariaDB Announce List annou...@mariadb.org wrote: The MariaDB project is pleased to announce the immediate availability of MariaDB 5.5.39 This is a Stable (GA) release. See the Release Notes and Changelog for details. - - Links - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MariaDB 5.5.39 - Release Notes: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-5539-release-notes - Changelog: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-5539-changelog - Downloads: https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/5.5.39 About MariaDB 5.5: - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/what-is-mariadb-55/ APT and YUM Repository Configuration Generator: - https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/repositories/ - - MariaDB Webinars - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - There are several upcoming MariaDB-focused webinars and many previously held ones available to watch on an on-demand basis at: - https://mariadb.com/news-events/webinars - - MariaDB Books - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Building a Web Application with PHP and MariaDB: A Reference Guide is the latest MariaDB book in Packt's growing MariaDB book series. It guides you through all the steps to get your app up and running. - http://bit.ly/1qrqMQx The recently published MariaDB Cookbook contains nearly 100 recipes covering a variety of features in MariaDB 5.5 and 10.0. - http://bit.ly/WZs2Pd Another book, Getting Started with MariaDB is a how-to guide for beginners to help them get up to speed quickly with MariaDB. No prior database experience required. - http://bit.ly/MMElbQ - - User Feedback plugin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MariaDB includes a User Feedback plugin. This plugin is disabled by default. If enabled, it submits basic, completely anonymous MariaDB usage information. This information is used by the developers to track trends in MariaDB usage to better guide development efforts. If you would like to help make MariaDB better, please add feedback=ON to your my.cnf or my.ini file! See http://mariadb.com/kb/en/user-feedback-plugin for more information. - - Quality - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The project always strives for quality, but in reality, nothing is perfect. Please take time to report any issues you encounter at: - http://mariadb.org/jira - - Support MariaDB - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If you would like to contribute to the MariaDB Foundation, please see the contributing and donations pages. We also have merchandise available in a cafepress store. All proceeds go to support the MariaDB Foundation. - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/contributing - https://mariadb.org/en/donate/ - http://www.cafepress.com/mariadb We hope you enjoy MariaDB! -- MariaDB Website - http://mariadb.org Twitter - http://twitter.com/mariadb Google+ - http://google.com/+mariadb Facebook - http://fb.com/MariaDB.dbms Knowledge Base - http://mariadb.com/kb ___ announce mailing list annou...@mariadb.org https://lists.askmonty.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/announce To unsubscribe, send an email with unsubscribe as the Subject: to announce-requ...@mariadb.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:52:28 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Le 06/08/2014 13:00, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Ok, so the question is why have 2 different branches at all? The Fresh branch has the advantage of having more features but what advantage does the older branch have? To have less bugs and regressions that make it more sure to use by average users. Which, by definition, makes it more stable. Hence why plenty of open source software uses the terminology of a stable branch vs. testing, bleeding edge, development, etc. Some sites say that the bleeding edge is *not* stable, so be warned, others say that the development branch is very stable, with more features, but does have the potential for more bugs, and leave the choice up to the end user. Why don't we do the same? This is well established tradition that many will be used to and understand, and those that aren't familiar with it can be guided in their choice by a simple description. In fact, the current download page has no description whatsoever, making it extremely unfriendly when it also uses unfamiliar terminology. Simply adding a description, and *not* making a .0 release the default choice, would go a long way towards making this whole argument a little less relevant, although using standard terminology as well is still the best way to go, by miles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Le 06.08.2014 16:22, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:56:13 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release No, not magically, but by the very nature of it being around for longer it will, in the end, result in a more stable product. Really? So a software being around gets patches through the Holy Spirit? LTS versions are never declared LTS months after they are released. One version (one over two, in the case of Canonical) is agreed and announced as LTS, and receives a specific treatment resulting from a specific contract for a specific (longer) period of time. LTS implies the existence of a business and a support machinery, not the virtue of time. best, Charles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi, Le 06/08/2014 15:49, arakish a écrit : So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) Please read this page to know more about our development process https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan and this to know more about the naming of our versions https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Version_scheme May be you'll understand that both are fully tested and stable. But LibreOffice is a software that is used in very different environments that we can't reproduce in our own. That's why, the time being, advanced users are helping us to reduce the number of bugs and regressions, that doesn't make the version unstable however. Kind regards Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Le 06.08.2014 16:14, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:05:08 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly it is not so easy for new people to figure it out otherwise we wouldn't keep on having to answer this same question from so many new users. So you answer them and they will know, this is how support works. This works for support *after* they have gotten the software, this should *never* be the case for people who want to download the software, that choice should *always* be pretty obvious. If I go to a page to download some software I want, and can't figure out which version I should use, or at least have some sort of idea about the choice being made, I consider just giving up on the software. I'm sure most people are the same. Honestly that's not what is perceived in terms of stats however it is true we could do with clearer explanations(and these should be positive, not in the form of this branch is really less stable than the other - that is not what is wanted here... Yes, but you keep thinking on the same model: stable vs unstable when both are stable :) change your mind by thinking older in time = more bugfixes, newer in time = more features but more bugs. But you're getting the very definition of stable wrong: more bugs = less stable So this really *is* a debate about stable vs unstable. That's not to say that the younger product is *unstable*, but it does mean that the older product is *more stable*. Which, indeed, led us to change the term stable into something else. Stable is a state, not a definitive truth. Indeed, the older branch is more stable, let's call it more mature. In fact, the the term mature was seriously considered but as I explained elsewhere, there was a bit of a pickle with respect to the use of the term mature on the Internet... best, Charles. Paul -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:35:55 +0100 Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) Ok, so that sounds like the 4th or 6th cycle of a branch has reduced the bugs and regressions = i think most people would call that making it more stable wouldn't they? By definition, yes. Stable is hard to define, although on it's own it does lean towards meaning no bugs that crash the system in any way, but More Stable for sure means less bugs of any sort. Then the point about recent releases having had less usage seems to be saying that it is not quite so stable. Again, yes. Part of the problem is some people commenting seem to think that if one branch is stable, the other must be unstable. This is not true. Normal practice in the open source world is to call the most stable branch stable, and the less stable branch (note, less stable, by definition, but not necessarily unstable) something like development, or even latest. Heck, even Stable and Fresh would be wy better than what we have now. So i think we still need to try to think of a really short name for each branch that describes what it's advantage is over the other branch. Stable for the more mature branch is a no brainer. The other branch can be something like Development or even still Fresh. Part of the problem lies, in my opinion, in not having a relevant description of the terms on the download page. Users should never simply be shown such terms and assumed to know what they mean. The download page should *always* give a brief description of what the terms mean, and there should be an easily visible link to a description of the two, explaining to new users why they may want one over the other. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:31:46 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Le 06/08/2014 15:49, arakish a écrit : So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) Please read this page to know more about our development process https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan and this to know more about the naming of our versions https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Version_scheme May be you'll understand that both are fully tested and stable. But one is more stable. But LibreOffice is a software that is used in very different environments that we can't reproduce in our own. That's why, the time being, advanced users are helping us to reduce the number of bugs and regressions, that doesn't make the version unstable however. No, but it does make it less stable. These are important terms that are widely used in open source software. Why does LO feel the need to be different? It can only lead to confusion, especially with a lack of explanation around the terms on the download page. And I'd go so far as to say that the chosen alternatives are poor. Fresh might be fine, but Still makes one think that it has reached end of life, and won't be updated anymore. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:36:33 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Le 06.08.2014 16:14, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:05:08 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly it is not so easy for new people to figure it out otherwise we wouldn't keep on having to answer this same question from so many new users. So you answer them and they will know, this is how support works. This works for support *after* they have gotten the software, this should *never* be the case for people who want to download the software, that choice should *always* be pretty obvious. If I go to a page to download some software I want, and can't figure out which version I should use, or at least have some sort of idea about the choice being made, I consider just giving up on the software. I'm sure most people are the same. Honestly that's not what is perceived in terms of stats however it is true we could do with clearer explanations(and these should be positive, not in the form of this branch is really less stable than the other - that is not what is wanted here... I'd be interested to know what stats you have. I can't think of any stats that would indicate this. Either people go there, and are confused and go away without downloading anything, or they do download something, and you have a new user. But so many people must also go to the page and not download anything for other reasons (like myself, who just went there earlier to confirm the wording on the page, or when I go there just to check what the latest version is), so I'm not sure how you could have any stats that indicate how many people are leaving due to being unsure of the terminology. So this really *is* a debate about stable vs unstable. That's not to say that the younger product is *unstable*, but it does mean that the older product is *more stable*. Which, indeed, led us to change the term stable into something else. And that was, IMHO, a bad choice. The term is widely used and understood on the internet, and changing it, even if you had chosen a better word, would still have been not what people know and understand, leaving open the potential for confusion. Stable is a state, not a definitive truth. But it is still a good word for the older branch, as explained above. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Le 06/08/2014 16:48, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:31:46 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Le 06/08/2014 15:49, arakish a écrit : So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) Please read this page to know more about our development process https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan and this to know more about the naming of our versions https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Version_scheme May be you'll understand that both are fully tested and stable. But one is more stable. But LibreOffice is a software that is used in very different environments that we can't reproduce in our own. That's why, the time being, advanced users are helping us to reduce the number of bugs and regressions, that doesn't make the version unstable however. No, but it does make it less stable. These are important terms that are widely used in open source software. Why does LO feel the need to be different? It can only lead to confusion, especially with a lack of explanation around the terms on the download page. And I'd go so far as to say that the chosen alternatives are poor. Fresh might be fine, but Still makes one think that it has reached end of life, and won't be updated anymore. And we come back to the beginning of the discussion, if you have better names, the marketing team will be happy to discuss them :) Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:01:33 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: And we come back to the beginning of the discussion, if you have better names, the marketing team will be happy to discuss them :) Kind regards Sophie Sure, please pass on to the team: Stable Development (or Current, or Latest) And please add a note about putting the descriptions on the download page, it's even more important than the names chosen. Oh, and also don't make a .0 release the default. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:20:32 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Paul : did you intend to post this off list? No, sorry, my bad for not checking the address. I just clicked reply. For most messages that goes to the list, I don't know why some people seem to have it that their messages are set to reply off-list. On 6 août 2014 16:45:36 CEST, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: Sorry, Charles, but I have to respectfully disagree: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:31:40 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Le 06.08.2014 16:22, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:56:13 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release No, not magically, but by the very nature of it being around for longer it will, in the end, result in a more stable product. Really? So a software being around gets patches through the Holy Spirit? No, it gets patches the same way a .6 release of a software gets more patches than a .0 release. That is your definition of an LTS. Not a bad one but it does not change the definition much... It is merely the common definition. The idea of a version being around for longer having more patches in it is well understood, and in fact has been something you have commented on regarding the benefit of the Still branch. LTS versions don't *start off* more stable, they only become more stable. I agree. LTS implies the existence of a business and a support machinery, not the virtue of time. No, it doesn't. It may be the case for Canonical that the LTS version has more support machinery, but the concept of LTS is just that it will be supported for a guaranteed amount of time, and not retired early, such that adopters can be sure that for a specific duration they will not have to upgrade to get support and patches. So developers will obviously have an incentive to develop a LTS for free... not really seen this working well before honestly. And I have been working in linux distros for some time. They will have the same incentive that they do for any release. Why would they decide not to work on it just because they are not being paid? They're not being paid for any of their other work anyway. Best, Charles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hello Paul, On 6 août 2014 17:37:58 CEST, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:20:32 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Paul : did you intend to post this off list? No, sorry, my bad for not checking the address. I just clicked reply. For most messages that goes to the list, I don't know why some people seem to have it that their messages are set to reply off-list. On 6 août 2014 16:45:36 CEST, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: Sorry, Charles, but I have to respectfully disagree: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:31:40 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Le 06.08.2014 16:22, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:56:13 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release No, not magically, but by the very nature of it being around for longer it will, in the end, result in a more stable product. Really? So a software being around gets patches through the Holy Spirit? No, it gets patches the same way a .6 release of a software gets more patches than a .0 release. That is your definition of an LTS. Not a bad one but it does not change the definition much... It is merely the common definition. Where can I find this common definition? To me it is a possible one but not the exclusive one . Anyway: it does not overly matter in our case. The idea of a version being around for longer having more patches in it is well understood, and in fact has been something you have commented on regarding the benefit of the Still branch. LTS versions don't *start off* more stable, they only become more stable. I agree. LTS implies the existence of a business and a support machinery, not the virtue of time. No, it doesn't. It may be the case for Canonical that the LTS version has more support machinery, but the concept of LTS is just that it will be supported for a guaranteed amount of time, and not retired early, such that adopters can be sure that for a specific duration they will not have to upgrade to get support and patches. So developers will obviously have an incentive to develop a LTS for free... not really seen this working well before honestly. And I have been working in linux distros for some time. They will have the same incentive that they do for any release. Why would they decide not to work on it just because they are not being paid? They're not being paid for any of their other work anyway. Ah. You seem to ignore 1) the itch to scratch 2) money as an incentive. To think that they are not paid for any of their work is both factually wrong and dangerous. At least within the LibreOffice project and many others as well developers are paid directly or indirectly for their work on libreoffice. Best, Charles. Best, Charles. -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Share text between several documents
Hi! I prepare my phd-paper in LO and have a lot of related documents like reports, orders and etc. I'd like to share some text between all of this documents. There are not only information about subject and author, but also large parts of text like research results, goals and etc. Can anybody explain me how to do it? -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Share-text-between-several-documents-tp4118025.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi :) Yeh, i have always thought that giving the newest users the least stable version is a bad idea. At the moment it is only once you are familiar with LibreOffice and become able to cope with problems more easily that you are able to get the least buggy version! One of the problems with the 2 branches is that what we really have is more like; 1. Stable branch 2. VERY stable branch It's not like one of the branches is ever unstable, development or anything like that. It's just that one has become even more stable. So i can see why people have trouble coming up with a name. I really like Tim's (at Kracked Press) idea. That way really makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that having some sort of BRIEF explanation on the page might help people make up their minds which to choose. The problem would be that a lot of the explanations in this thread are more like politicians excuses and end up obscuring the advantages of each instead of clarifying them. I can easily imagine both having the same description. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 16:31, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:01:33 +0200 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: And we come back to the beginning of the discussion, if you have better names, the marketing team will be happy to discuss them :) Kind regards Sophie Sure, please pass on to the team: Stable Development (or Current, or Latest) And please add a note about putting the descriptions on the download page, it's even more important than the names chosen. Oh, and also don't make a .0 release the default. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) i think that could get really confusing! At the moment internal means within Base itself and external means anywhere else. However the anywhere else is really quite a vast range of places! And the back-end could even be moved from one place to another with very little change in Base. Such places as 1. Same folder as Base (might seem a no-brainer at first) 2. Same machine (desktop?) but different folder 3. A shared folder on a local network, such as on a company file-server I think back-ends can also be on; 4. A remote folder on an off-site machine 5. A database on a website 6. Up on a Cloud (err that is really 4 again, right?) This is one way Base is more powerful than Access. Of course it one that keeps being kept quiet in the race to try to make it seem as limited as Access (because weeus only know Access, right??). It's possible to use different programs to access the same data and use it in different ways. Can Access be easily set-up as a networked database and able to be read by multiple different users on different machines at the same time as each other? I think it can but needs someone seriously geeky. Base is designed to do it by default. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 15:44, Paul D. Mirowsky p_mirow...@bentaxna.com wrote: So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Intermittent Calc Issues
To rule out the keyboard possibility, perhaps try a different keyboard, plugged directly into the PC (no USB hubs or other cables in between). I've previously found that a faulty keyboard (or USB cable or hub between keyboard and PC) can act as if keys get stuck down (seems like the PC sometimes gets the key down message but not the key up message, so thinks it's still held down). A stuck character key is usually obvious as it keeps repeating, but not so obvious with Ctrl, Alt, Shift, etc. which only have an effect when you press something else - which then doesn't do what you expect. If pressing and releasing keys a few times unsticks them (PC gets the key up message this time), which it sounds like you've found with the shift key, that may well be the cause. I'm not sure if combinations of Ctrl, Alt, Shift or other keys along with those you're pressing can cause the effects you describe. Perhaps more likely if you're using the numpad arrows (rather than the separate arrow keys) as those keys can enter other characters when Alt is held down - e.g. for me Alt+822 (up, down, down) gives 6 and Alt+826 (up, down, right) gives :. Certainly Shift + Click or arrow keys selects an area rather than moving the active cell. Mark. Gregory Forster wrote: Woops, I meant to click the spell-check and not the send. That all explains well for the unexplained highlighting, but what about the random ;6 (semi-colon and the number six) at times, or the random : (colon) at times, replacing cell contents by just pressing a directional arrow key. That, I can't figure out. No, I won't sack my tech (he's my son - we work together). It ONLY happens with LO Calc, not Impress, or Writer, or Base, or any other program. In fact, I extensively use Gnucash. I am the Treasurer, Financial Accountant and do the payroll for church and also use Gnucash for personal finance records - No problems. However, you did give me ideas and reminders. I've always been very passionate about backups and keeping your hard drive clean from malware, viruses, rootkits, etc. of which we also nag our clients about.. I forgot about keeping the keyboard clean. Thank you. Greg On 8/5/2014 1:58 AM, Brian Barker wrote: At 22:25 04/08/2014 -0500, Gregory Forster wrote: I have an inconsistent and not often issue with Calc. [...] Calc does weird things now and then. [...] Sometimes, I complete a calculation in a cell, and press the Enter or Down Arrow key. My calculation will disappear and a ;6 will appear in the cell. Or I may randomly highlight a cell to check a formula, then when I press a directional arrow, my calculation will disappear and a : will reside in that cell. Sometimes, I'll just move an arrow key, or the mouse to move from one cell to another and wherever I move will highlight as if I was holding down the Shift key. [...] This all started in early July. [...] I changed different versions of LibreOffice (vs 4). I have LO 4.3.0, 4.2.5, 4.2.2, 4.1.4, 4.1.3, 4.1.2, and 4.0.3 (which I am currently using). I still had the same issues with whichever version used. I discussed the issues and history with another tech and he reasoned (the same as I) that LO was having memory conflict issues with one or more simultaneous running programs. What, you mean that LibreOffice - in many different versions - is improperly sharing memory with other programs for you but not for anyone else? And why would that behaviour change in early July? Perhaps you should sack your tech. My questions are: Has anyone else experienced the same? I doubt it - at least, not as a problem with the software. Does my reasoning sound feasible? Nope. Any ideas? If you spend a lot of time on one project or using one application, it is very easy to blame a more general problem with your computer on the particular application. o Try draining the spilt coffee from your keyboard. o Try shaking the biscuit crumbs from your keyboard. o Try poking out the cat hairs from your keyboard. o Try running your computer manufacturer's diagnostics (especially those for the keyboard). o Try attaching an external keyboard and using for a sufficient period to test. o Does your notebook have a trackpad? Is your thumb or palm grazing the trackpad as you move your fingers about? You won't believe this is possible, so get someone else to watch as you use the system for a period. Try temporarily disabling the trackpad or reducing its sensitivity to test. I trust this helps. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Share text between several documents
At 08:58 06/08/2014 -0700, Alex Barmin wrote: I prepare my phd-paper in LO and have a lot of related documents like reports, orders and etc. I'd like to share some text between all of this documents. There are not only information about subject and author, but also large parts of text like research results, goals and etc. Can anybody explain me how to do it? If the text you want to share is only a part of any of your sub-documents, you need to identify and label such parts. o Select the relevant text. o Go to Insert | Section... | Section. o Give the New section a name. o Click OK. You will see that sections need to be complete paragraphs or collections of paragraphs. In the document which needs to inherit the text, o Go to Insert | Section... | Section. o Tick Link. o Click ... next to File name. o Browse to the sub-document. o Where relevant, select the appropriate part under Section. It's possible that you will need to save sub-documents before any changes in them will be reflected in the main document. And it's certainly the case that you will need to update the main document if it is already open in order that any changes are reflected there. To do this, go to Tools | Update | Links (or Tools | Update | Update All). All this is necessary only if you later need to edit the sub-documents and wish to see changes reflected in the main document, of course. Otherwise, you can just copy an paste text between documents. I trust this helps. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Actually, it's just as easy to use Access as a front end to external DBMS' as it is to use Base. As long as an ODBC driver is available and registered in Windows, the external database looks like the native database. Just as in Base, the features of the external DBMS have to be exposed by the driver to be available to the front end. I know, because I've done it with more than one external DBMS. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) i think that could get really confusing! At the moment internal means within Base itself and external means anywhere else. However the anywhere else is really quite a vast range of places! And the back-end could even be moved from one place to another with very little change in Base. Such places as 1. Same folder as Base (might seem a no-brainer at first) 2. Same machine (desktop?) but different folder 3. A shared folder on a local network, such as on a company file-server I think back-ends can also be on; 4. A remote folder on an off-site machine 5. A database on a website 6. Up on a Cloud (err that is really 4 again, right?) This is one way Base is more powerful than Access. Of course it one that keeps being kept quiet in the race to try to make it seem as limited as Access (because weeus only know Access, right??). It's possible to use different programs to access the same data and use it in different ways. Can Access be easily set-up as a networked database and able to be read by multiple different users on different machines at the same time as each other? I think it can but needs someone seriously geeky. Base is designed to do it by default. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 15:44, Paul D. Mirowsky p_mirow...@bentaxna.com wrote: So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Still?
Tom Davies wrote: I am beginning to like the sound of mature branch and young branch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mature_technology : A mature technology is a technology that has been in use for long enough that most of its initial faults and inherent problems have been removed or reduced by further development. Seems to fit the bill nicely. Of course a google search for mature, or young, might bring up some bad sites that we wouldn't want to be associated with. It's annoying because otherwise that might be a really good way of describing the difference between the 2 branches. Someone looking for info on the mature version of LibreOffice isn't going to search simply for mature; they're going to include LibreOffice in the search terms. Currently, a quick search on Google for LibreOffice mature download gives at least the first 3 pages of results all relating to LibreOffice. I don't see mature as being any worse than fresh in terms of other connotations it might have (I'm in the UK; maybe it's different in other parts of the world...) So i think we still need to try to think of a really short name for each branch that describes what it's advantage is over the other branch. Fresh and Mature seem fine to me. Alternatively, perhaps long term support for the older branch, although I'm not sure that's really accurate since the life cycle of the stable/still/mature/LTS/whatever branch is no longer than any other. As someone else mentioned, whatever terms are used need to be explained in a few words on the downloads page. To me, Still sounds like that branch is stagnant, no longer developed, abandoned... (more apt for the 4.0 branch I'm still using ;o) Mark. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:55:14 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Paul, On 6 août 2014 17:37:58 CEST, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:20:32 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Paul : did you intend to post this off list? No, sorry, my bad for not checking the address. I just clicked reply. For most messages that goes to the list, I don't know why some people seem to have it that their messages are set to reply off-list. On 6 août 2014 16:45:36 CEST, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: Sorry, Charles, but I have to respectfully disagree: On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 16:31:40 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Le 06.08.2014 16:22, Paul a écrit : On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:56:13 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: LTS will never, however magically produce a better quality release No, not magically, but by the very nature of it being around for longer it will, in the end, result in a more stable product. Really? So a software being around gets patches through the Holy Spirit? No, it gets patches the same way a .6 release of a software gets more patches than a .0 release. That is your definition of an LTS. Not a bad one but it does not change the definition much... It is merely the common definition. Where can I find this common definition? To me it is a possible one but not the exclusive one . Anyway: it does not overly matter in our case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_support Long-term support (LTS) is term used to describe special versions or editions of software designed to be supported for a longer than normal period. The idea of a version being around for longer having more patches in it is well understood, and in fact has been something you have commented on regarding the benefit of the Still branch. LTS versions don't *start off* more stable, they only become more stable. I agree. LTS implies the existence of a business and a support machinery, not the virtue of time. No, it doesn't. It may be the case for Canonical that the LTS version has more support machinery, but the concept of LTS is just that it will be supported for a guaranteed amount of time, and not retired early, such that adopters can be sure that for a specific duration they will not have to upgrade to get support and patches. So developers will obviously have an incentive to develop a LTS for free... not really seen this working well before honestly. And I have been working in linux distros for some time. They will have the same incentive that they do for any release. Why would they decide not to work on it just because they are not being paid? They're not being paid for any of their other work anyway. Ah. You seem to ignore 1) the itch to scratch 2) money as an incentive. To think that they are not paid for any of their work is both factually wrong and dangerous. At least within the LibreOffice project and many others as well developers are paid directly or indirectly for their work on libreoffice. This is missing my point, which was that LTS doesn't mean there is more support machinery requiring special contracts, and therefore necessarily an LTS version is a version paid for by some company or companies, but that LTS is simply a version that will be around for longer, for whatever reason. People may or may not choose to work on an LTS version, but certainly a big support contract isn't the only reason they ever would. So your points above don't really count either for or against what I was trying to say, but in this context: 2) If developers are being paid, then the person/organisation paying can decide what to pay them for, so can decide to pay them to maintain an LTS version. Whether the person/organisation has the funds to pay for an LTS version without special support contracts or not isn't the point. 1) It is both factually wrong and dangerous to assume that developers only work because they are being paid or are scratching an itch. If you're saying that an LTS version wouldn't hold their interest, I say that if that were the case, assuming they aren't being paid (otherwise see 2. above), they would never work on the Still branch. Why would they if it is boring? They do because it isn't only about what is the flavour of the moment for them. They also have at least some sense of duty to the project, and work on things that are necessary even if it isn't the most interesting. If they didn't the project would quickly fall apart. So if they have decided that an LTS version is important, they will devote some time to it even if no one is paying them and there are newer development branches to work on. If by all this you are trying to say that LO doesn't have
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi Tom, I will try to rephrase it... Fresh is going to be renamed to Still (Stable) after a while. Bugs not found in Fresh will land in Stable within 6M... So the quality of the Stable will decrease if less people use the Fresh branch... So we need to find bugs early in the cycle ( when it is in the Fresh state (even better in the RCs and Betas before it is the Fresh release)). Developers need time to fix bugs, so it would be ideal to work with a daily build from time to time to ensure the correct function there (daily build is from master branch). ( sorry, I am involved in QA. I do not care if a user is able to submit a bug, we have so many bugs to take care. It is important that more advanced users (who know what a Bug in a software means) uses the Fresh branch. I just want to point out, that we have many bug reports, when we release a Fresh branch and that the feedback is more valuable at the beginning of the life- cycle then at the end Sorry that this resulted in one paragraph (typed from iPad) To cut it short: We need early feedback in order to have time to improve the software quality I hope I was able to carry across _my_ point... (I know, from a marketing prospective not perfect ;) )... If not, please ask :) Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 19:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) That kinda assumes that new users are able to post bug-reports and that they want to do so. Most new users who run into a problem probably don't know how or can't be bothered or don't see why they should. They might not realise it is a bug and just assume that it's the type of shoddiness that free things are likely to have or that they have broken it. It really depends on how keen we are to have countless people bad-mouthing us and never trying LibreOffice again because of all the bugs they encountered (and probably never told anyone about). People outside of LO keep telling me long lists of problems they encountered and why they wont ever try LO or anything like it ever again. Usually their gripes are things that just don't happen in Still branch = yet because they were pushed into using the less stable branch we now have someone(s) happily telling everyone to avoid LO because it's @*#p If we were clearer about the purpose of each branch then probably countless people would still try the Fresh branch anyway, but they would be happier about it if they did find a bug. People often want to help and repay LO for being fantastic and if they saw such an easy way to help it might even boost the numbers of people actively testing early releases! Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 18:01, Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:01:19 +0200 Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? That is true, but it still seems dangerous to push new users towards Fresh. If users start with Stable, then, after learning that it is stable, are pushed towards Fresh to get newer features, then the ones who want stability won't move across and will be happy, and the ones who want new features will move, knowing there is stability to fall back on, and so will also be happy. Should they find that everything works, they will be happy with new features, and should they find instability, they will be happy to fall back on the stable version, knowing that they had taken a *slight* risk. Conversely, if you push all new people to Fresh, any who find no bugs will be happy, but any that find bugs will have the impression that LO is buggy and unstable, and won't necessarily know about Stable to fall back on. Those that are told about Stable will undoubtedly grumble about the fact that they should have been told about it in the first place. I'm not saying that this is a simple matter, just that in my opinion it is far better to offer the Stable branch as the default install, and urge users to try out the Fresh branch when they start asking about features. Once they've gotten as far as asking about features, they're already far enough in the process to get help should there be any unexpected problems with Fresh. Also, giving proper explanations (well, proper brief explanations with a link to a more detailed explanation) on the download page lets new users evaluate the choice themselves, and that way they are less likely to be angry when caught out by something. There should still be enough users of Fresh in this scenario to allow for the needed user testing. Paul Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi Florian, Florian Reisinger wrote on 06-08-14 20:01: Hi Tom, [...] Thanks for your encouraging attempts to explain over and again. I would expect that only for newcomers those items could ask for _some_ explanation. Cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Just to add another point... (see inline) On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:04:56 +0200 Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:01:19 +0200 Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? That is true, but it still seems dangerous to push new users towards Fresh. If users start with Stable, then, after learning that it is stable, are pushed towards Fresh to get newer features, then the ones who want stability won't move across and will be happy, and the ones who want new features will move, knowing there is stability to fall back on, and so will also be happy. Should they find that everything works, they will be happy with new features, and should they find instability, they will be happy to fall back on the stable version, knowing that they had taken a *slight* risk. Conversely, if you push all new people to Fresh, any who find no bugs will be happy, but any that find bugs will have the impression that LO is buggy and unstable, and won't necessarily know about Stable to fall back on. Those that are told about Stable will undoubtedly grumble about the fact that they should have been told about it in the first place. I'm not saying that this is a simple matter, just that in my opinion it is far better to offer the Stable branch as the default install, and urge users to try out the Fresh branch when they start asking about features. Once they've gotten as far as asking about features, they're already far enough in the process to get help should there be any unexpected problems with Fresh. They're also far enough along in the process to offer bug reports... Also, giving proper explanations (well, proper brief explanations with a link to a more detailed explanation) on the download page lets new users evaluate the choice themselves, and that way they are less likely to be angry when caught out by something. There should still be enough users of Fresh in this scenario to allow for the needed user testing. Paul Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] question
Perhaps this is a phish email wanting a reply for evil purposes! Original message From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Date:08/05/2014 11:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com,users@global.libreoffice.org,thommat...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] question Hello there, On 5 août 2014 17:38:29 CEST, Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: On 08/05/2014 02:51 AM, Tomáš Matýs wrote: Hi, I am just curious when you update your google+ account, because last massege is there from january. Maybe there is some problem with the connection. with the best regards, Tomáš Matýs Who's google+ account? LibreOffice's or someone else's? Several people including me man the page and most of all, the G+ community. What page are you looking at? Best, Charles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Paul, The fresh branch is stable enough for everyone to use. LibreOffice does not pilot planes, it does not usually crash, it does the job. There are people who want newer features and people who want more tested versions. There's food for everyone. Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to contribute to our marketing team. Best, Charles. Le Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:07:41 +0200, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za a écrit : Just to add another point... (see inline) On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:04:56 +0200 Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:01:19 +0200 Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? That is true, but it still seems dangerous to push new users towards Fresh. If users start with Stable, then, after learning that it is stable, are pushed towards Fresh to get newer features, then the ones who want stability won't move across and will be happy, and the ones who want new features will move, knowing there is stability to fall back on, and so will also be happy. Should they find that everything works, they will be happy with new features, and should they find instability, they will be happy to fall back on the stable version, knowing that they had taken a *slight* risk. Conversely, if you push all new people to Fresh, any who find no bugs will be happy, but any that find bugs will have the impression that LO is buggy and unstable, and won't necessarily know about Stable to fall back on. Those that are told about Stable will undoubtedly grumble about the fact that they should have been told about it in the first place. I'm not saying that this is a simple matter, just that in my opinion it is far better to offer the Stable branch as the default install, and urge users to try out the Fresh branch when they start asking about features. Once they've gotten as far as asking about features, they're already far enough in the process to get help should there be any unexpected problems with Fresh. They're also far enough along in the process to offer bug reports... Also, giving proper explanations (well, proper brief explanations with a link to a more detailed explanation) on the download page lets new users evaluate the choice themselves, and that way they are less likely to be angry when caught out by something. There should still be enough users of Fresh in this scenario to allow for the needed user testing. Paul Liebe Grüße, / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 06.08.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com: Hi :) This seems to be contradicting what Charles is saying. Also is it really a good policy to force new and unwitting users to act as guinea-pigs? Should all new users be pushed into finding and fixing bugs? Would it really be bad to give them a clear and easy route to a less buggy version? Regards from Tom :) -- Charles-H. Schulz Co-founder, The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Intermittent Calc Issues
Hi Mark, That gives me something else to try - plugging in another keyboard. This notebook computer is still under warranty and now would be the time to find out. But what still puzzles me, is why only Calc? Why doesn't it affect any other program? I extensively use Gnucash also. One thing I failed to mention, all my Gnucash files, as well as many personal LO medical and financial files are encrypted using Truecrypt. I have Truecrypt running to access Gnucash as well as many personal medical and financial files (IRA spreadsheet). But, as I told Tom, I've completed my IRA spreadshheet, so now I have to think up of some other elaborate spreadsheet. Greg On 8/6/2014 11:42 AM, Mark Bourne wrote: To rule out the keyboard possibility, perhaps try a different keyboard, plugged directly into the PC (no USB hubs or other cables in between). I've previously found that a faulty keyboard (or USB cable or hub between keyboard and PC) can act as if keys get stuck down (seems like the PC sometimes gets the key down message but not the key up message, so thinks it's still held down). A stuck character key is usually obvious as it keeps repeating, but not so obvious with Ctrl, Alt, Shift, etc. which only have an effect when you press something else - which then doesn't do what you expect. If pressing and releasing keys a few times unsticks them (PC gets the key up message this time), which it sounds like you've found with the shift key, that may well be the cause. I'm not sure if combinations of Ctrl, Alt, Shift or other keys along with those you're pressing can cause the effects you describe. Perhaps more likely if you're using the numpad arrows (rather than the separate arrow keys) as those keys can enter other characters when Alt is held down - e.g. for me Alt+822 (up, down, down) gives 6 and Alt+826 (up, down, right) gives :. Certainly Shift + Click or arrow keys selects an area rather than moving the active cell. Mark. Gregory Forster wrote: Woops, I meant to click the spell-check and not the send. That all explains well for the unexplained highlighting, but what about the random ;6 (semi-colon and the number six) at times, or the random : (colon) at times, replacing cell contents by just pressing a directional arrow key. That, I can't figure out. No, I won't sack my tech (he's my son - we work together). It ONLY happens with LO Calc, not Impress, or Writer, or Base, or any other program. In fact, I extensively use Gnucash. I am the Treasurer, Financial Accountant and do the payroll for church and also use Gnucash for personal finance records - No problems. However, you did give me ideas and reminders. I've always been very passionate about backups and keeping your hard drive clean from malware, viruses, rootkits, etc. of which we also nag our clients about.. I forgot about keeping the keyboard clean. Thank you. Greg On 8/5/2014 1:58 AM, Brian Barker wrote: At 22:25 04/08/2014 -0500, Gregory Forster wrote: I have an inconsistent and not often issue with Calc. [...] Calc does weird things now and then. [...] Sometimes, I complete a calculation in a cell, and press the Enter or Down Arrow key. My calculation will disappear and a ;6 will appear in the cell. Or I may randomly highlight a cell to check a formula, then when I press a directional arrow, my calculation will disappear and a : will reside in that cell. Sometimes, I'll just move an arrow key, or the mouse to move from one cell to another and wherever I move will highlight as if I was holding down the Shift key. [...] This all started in early July. [...] I changed different versions of LibreOffice (vs 4). I have LO 4.3.0, 4.2.5, 4.2.2, 4.1.4, 4.1.3, 4.1.2, and 4.0.3 (which I am currently using). I still had the same issues with whichever version used. I discussed the issues and history with another tech and he reasoned (the same as I) that LO was having memory conflict issues with one or more simultaneous running programs. What, you mean that LibreOffice - in many different versions - is improperly sharing memory with other programs for you but not for anyone else? And why would that behaviour change in early July? Perhaps you should sack your tech. My questions are: Has anyone else experienced the same? I doubt it - at least, not as a problem with the software. Does my reasoning sound feasible? Nope. Any ideas? If you spend a lot of time on one project or using one application, it is very easy to blame a more general problem with your computer on the particular application. o Try draining the spilt coffee from your keyboard. o Try shaking the biscuit crumbs from your keyboard. o Try poking out the cat hairs from your keyboard. o Try running your computer manufacturer's diagnostics (especially those for the keyboard). o Try attaching an external keyboard and using for a sufficient period to test. o Does your notebook have a trackpad? Is your thumb or palm grazing the trackpad as
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:54:10 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Paul, The fresh branch is stable enough for everyone to use. LibreOffice does not pilot planes, it does not usually crash, it does the job. There are people who want newer features and people who want more tested versions. There's food for everyone. Yes, there is, and no one is saying any different. In fact, I am saying that there are people who want both, and so *both* should be offered. But by your own admission, one of those branches is more stable. The difference might be slight, but it is enough for the people behind LO to continue to offer it when the newer, more featureful branch is also being offered. So for me first prize would be to have both branches as equal downloads on the LO download page. With a clear, concise explanation of what each offers, and a link to a slightly longer, fuller explanation. That is exactly what I am proposing should be done. But barring that, if LO wants to keep a single download as the primary download, as it currently is, then I am firm in my belief that the primary download should not be the less stable branch, but should instead be the more stable branch. More experienced users will know where to look for the version they require, but it is my belief that new users, the kind that will simply click on the big shiny download button, prefer stability over features. In the case of an office suite like LO, how much of the new features do they even use? Of course people want new features, I just think that new users would prefer stability, or even better yet, a clearly explained choice, rather than features at the expense of stability. If you have statistics to show otherwise, I'm sure you would have presented them by now. If you disagree, that is of course fine, but it remains purely our individual opinions until someone presents some pertinent facts. Although as far as I can tell from the responses, it seems most people here agree with me, so if I were the marketing team, I would give it careful consideration. Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to contribute to our marketing team. Well, this particular discussion was about how the downloads are presented, not about the names for each branch, and I have already made my opinions on the branch names clear, but I will reiterate them here for clarity: Still should be Stable Fresh *can* stay the same, but should rather be Current or Development Feel free to pass that on to the marketing team. I don't think I will be joining another mailing list, one with an agenda that I am largely not interested in, just to contribute that. This discussion was opened here, and I contributed my opinions; I am happy leaving it at that. I'm sure the right people are aware of this discussion, or, if not, that someone who is on both lists will pass along our sentiments. Paul Best, Charles. Le Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:07:41 +0200, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za a écrit : Just to add another point... (see inline) On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:04:56 +0200 Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:01:19 +0200 Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? That is true, but it still seems dangerous to push new users towards Fresh. If users start with Stable, then, after learning that it is stable, are pushed towards Fresh to get newer features, then the ones who want stability won't move across and will be happy, and the ones who want new features will move, knowing there is stability to fall back on, and so will also be happy. Should they find that everything works, they will be happy with new features, and should they find instability, they will be happy to fall back on the stable version, knowing that they had taken a *slight* risk. Conversely, if you push all new people to Fresh, any who find no bugs will be happy, but any that find bugs will have the impression that LO is buggy and unstable, and won't necessarily know about Stable to fall back on. Those that are told about Stable will undoubtedly grumble about the fact that they should have been told about it in the first place. I'm not saying that this is a simple matter, just that in my opinion it is far better to offer the Stable branch as the default install, and urge users to try out the Fresh branch when they start asking about features. Once they've gotten as far as asking about features, they're already far enough in the process to get help should there be any unexpected problems with Fresh. They're also far enough along in the process to offer bug reports... Also, giving proper
[libreoffice-users] What version?
I'm so confused by the multiple version that I have to ask. Several neighbors are eligible for me to install LibreOffice. One has Windows XP. One has Windows 7 and o9ne has Windows 8. One has Ubuntu and one has Linux Mint. Another has Red Hat and another has a Mac. What version shall I use for each? Thanks. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Paul-6 wrote So for me first prize would be to have both branches as equal downloads on the LO download page. With a clear, concise explanation of what each offers, and a link to a slightly longer, fuller explanation. That is exactly what I am proposing should be done. But barring that, if LO wants to keep a single download as the primary download, as it currently is, then I am firm in my belief that the primary download should not be the less stable branch, but should instead be the more stable branch. +1 -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Still-tp4117297p4118060.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] What version?
No great mystery. If they are more conservative--LibreOffice 4.2.6 is a solid build, somewhat lacking in the latest office features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-still/ If they have more tolerance for change, and accept the potential for some as yet undescribed bugs affecting use, then early adoption of the 4.3.0 branch is a reasonable choice. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ Both are good well tested software packages. -Original Message- From: Pikov Andropov [mailto:piko...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 4:30 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] What version? I'm so confused by the multiple version that I have to ask. Several neighbors are eligible for me to install LibreOffice. One has Windows XP. One has Windows 7 and o9ne has Windows 8. One has Ubuntu and one has Linux Mint. Another has Red Hat and another has a Mac. What version shall I use for each? Thanks. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On 08/06/2014 10:31 AM, Sophie wrote: Hi, Le 06/08/2014 15:49, arakish a écrit : So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them. Why not just use that? Stages: Alpha Beta Release Candidate Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0) Stable (LO v4.2.6) Please read this page to know more about our development process https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan and this to know more about the naming of our versions https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Version_scheme May be you'll understand that both are fully tested and stable. But LibreOffice is a software that is used in very different environments that we can't reproduce in our own. That's why, the time being, advanced users are helping us to reduce the number of bugs and regressions, that doesn't make the version unstable however. Kind regards Sophie Thanks Sophie I have had bugs that others did not. One too an update of Ubuntu to remove the bug/issue with that version of LO. Another was fixed with the next version or three. There are too many systems out there, and too many flavors of various operating systems, Linux being named version of Linux and its version number, plus the different desktop environments, etc.. Ubuntu 13.xx/14.xx has Unity, with post install d.e.'s of KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, XFCE, Gnome3, and many others, along with Kubuntu, Lubuntu, and some others out there. Then add Linux Mint [Ubuntu based] different versions, and the other OS's that use .deb installs. Then add in all of the .rpm install types of Linux OS's. That is a lot of different combinations of version of Linux and desktop environments out there. I have some software that cannot run on the newest Ubuntu or Mint software, since there were changes in the packages needed in the display of a GUI - like Unity, MATE, KDE, etc.. So even the different version numbers have differences that could be an issue, or look like a bug, for LO and its user. Then deal with Windows, and Mac systems. NO testing team, even a 100 people, could test all of the functions of LO with every hardware, software, and OS/d.e. combination out there. The big software companies cannot, so why expect our alpha/beta/release version testers to do that job and find all of those issues/bugs? 4.3.0 passed the testing and release rules to get published. Sure there will be issues in the x.x.0 version. There may be unresolved issues in the x.x.6/7 versions as well. Many have not have had any solutions found to resolve the issue[s] while others have not been replicated by the testers or only by one or two and the developers have not found what is causing the issues - yet. I rarely pass on version below x.x.3 or .4 to others, and a lot of time not install the x.x.0 version on my systems, unless there is a major upgrade to a part of GUI or some other part of LO that I want to use. Some of the users will update their systems with each and every version in a cycle till the next line comes out and then they go to that line's x.x.0 version. Our volunteer developers and testing users do their best, before the version go beyond the beta stage AND during the different version number updates. They do their best. Then we do our best to help the users who have problems with LO till the developers and testers can figure out how to fix the issue, if possible. There are too few doing the work on their own time after they get home from their day jobs. They are volunteers and do not get paid. The last time I knew, we had only one paid person - the one who keeps our servers up and running. Then the money for that position comes from the donations to pay for the costs of the hardware and bandwidth to keep LibreOffice.com [and its associated sites] online and running properly. I think we are doing a great job for a bunch of volunteers who do the work after they come home from their day jobs and spend a few hours on LO stuff taking those hours away from family time. THANKS to all of our volunteers and their families. Tim L. - volunteer -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
On 8/6/2014 10:55 AM, Paul wrote: But that doesn't change the fact that the concept of an LTS version has nothing to do with the business deals behind it. Yes, and no. As a general rule, Long Term Support is a direct function of business/corporate support. (Debian is probably the best known example of an entity that provides Long Term Support versions of software it maintains, but not commercial support for that software.) The major users of LTS versions of software are corporate entities. It is not uncommon for those organizations to test software for three to six months, prior to deploying it throughout the organization. Once deployed, the expectation is that it will be used for at least three years, with five to ten years being not uncommon. In extreme cases, the software remains in use for 15+ years after original deployment. (I'm aware of one firm that retired its mission critical software three years ago. That software was written for MS-DOS 3.31, and would not run on any later version of MS-DOS, nor on competitors, such as PC-DOS, DrDos, and 4Dos.) Were LibreOffice to offer an LTS version, then it would have to be supported for at least one year, and probably two or three years. With six months between versions, companies simply don't have the time tofix the things that the new version breaks. My recommendation would be: * Bleeding edge development: Nightly Build: This version will physically destroy your system. You have been warned. The Document Foundation is not responsible for the resulting destruction; * Beta: Version 4.5.x: This version will destroy your data. If that is not an issue for you, then use it, because it has all the bells, whistles, and bugs in it. The Document Foundation not responsible for your data loss, or any other loss you suffer, by using this version; * Stable: Version 4.4: This is the current version. Some of the bugs have been removed, but it has all of the current bells and whistles; * LTS: Version 4.0: This version may lack bells and whistles, but most of the bugs have been removed. Bug fixes are deliberately incorporated into this version. New bells and whistles are deliberately omitted from this version; I am deliberately tying the LTS version to increments in the major version number. (I don't remember the criteria for incrementing the major version number, and a search of the LibO site doesn't come up with anything.)(LTS status is granted when version 5.1.0 is released, rather than 5.0.0.) ### As far as fresh and still go, the terms are utterly meaningless to people both within and without the LibreOffice community. So meaningless, that people will skip the product, and search for something that they understand, without having to consult a dictionary. (The definitions at _Urban Dictionary_ are enough to convince hesitant users that none of these versions are safe to install.) Replace the terms with the version numbers. Whilst people might not understand the difference, they will see that one is 4.20, and the other is 4.3.0. jonathon -- eMail with a precedence of other than bulk, list, or junk is forwarded to Dve Null, unread. eMail with those precedences might, but probably will not be read. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] What version?
V Stuart Foote wrote on 8/6/2014 6:34 PM: No great mystery. If they are more conservative--LibreOffice 4.2.6 is a solid build, somewhat lacking in the latest office features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-still/ If they have more tolerance for change, and accept the potential for some as yet undescribed bugs affecting use, then early adoption of the 4.3.0 branch is a reasonable choice. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ Both are good well tested software packages. Interesting answer. I think you're saying that 4.2.6 is essentially bugfree, but 4.3.x is not. I suppose that an undescribed bug is one that the LO developers dd not discover during their testing, and that we users are the next test bed. I generally eschew programs with version numbers ending in 0, for that very reason. I just checked and I see that I have v4.0.1.2. Check for updates tells me that 4.2.5 (no typo!) is available for manual downloading. Where are 4.2.6 and 4.3.0? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] What version?
Pikov, *, -Original Message- From: Pikov Andropov [mailto:piko...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 6:31 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] What version? V Stuart Foote wrote on 8/6/2014 6:34 PM: No great mystery. If they are more conservative--LibreOffice 4.2.6 is a solid build, somewhat lacking in the latest office features. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-still/ If they have more tolerance for change, and accept the potential for some as yet undescribed bugs affecting use, then early adoption of the 4.3.0 branch is a reasonable choice. http://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ Both are good well tested software packages. Interesting answer. I think you're saying that 4.2.6 is essentially bugfree, but 4.3.x is not. I suppose that an undescribed bug is one that the LO developers dd not discover during their testing, and that we users are the next test bed. I generally eschew programs with version numbers ending in 0, for that very reason. I just checked and I see that I have v4.0.1.2. Check for updates tells me that 4.2.5 (no typo!) is available for manual downloading. Where are 4.2.6 and 4.3.0? See the URLs provided, they will detect the browser language in use and offer that build of LibreOffice. The rest of your comment is correct. No shame in avoiding the initial 4.3.0 or 4.3.1 release, but by the 4.3.2 release (week of Sep 22, 2014) as the 4.2.7 release is finalized (4.2 branch EOL is 19 Nov) --all users should be considering a shift to the 4.3 branch by that point. And then briefly remain on only the 4.3 branch until release of the initial 4.4.0 build (week of 26 Jan, 2015)--which will coincide with the 4.3.5 release. More details and rational for the time based release train are on the project wiki here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Release_Plan -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] What version?
On 08/06/2014 05:29 PM, Pikov Andropov wrote: I'm so confused by the multiple version that I have to ask. Several neighbors are eligible for me to install LibreOffice. One has Windows XP. One has Windows 7 and o9ne has Windows 8. One has Ubuntu and one has Linux Mint. Another has Red Hat and another has a Mac. What version shall I use for each? Thanks. Download the Windows version for all Windows users. The Linux users likely have versions tailored for their distro available. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Currently Using Spreadsheet for Personal Project - Thinking About Database
Hi All - So I have been using spreadsheet for about 10 years to keep track of a goal that I set my first year of college (reading a million pages before I die). That being said, I keep adding things to it and it's becoming more and more complicated. This week I decided I wanted to add yet another thing - I want to track series that I read and for it to generate the next book in the series after I complete a book. I think I've figured out how to do this with spreadsheet using match and index but I'm just debating if it's time for me to really sit down and create a database with the info. The file is located here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2kdRhc960qdQTN1TGQxUXhVX0k Thoughts much appreciated - I have a bit of experience with Access and am pretty good at learning by doing but don't want to change to database just for the sake of changing. Kind of looking for pros and cons. Thanks in advance! Best, Joel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Suddenly the script is working!
On August 6, 2014 5:40:24 PM EDT, ESChamp esch...@gmail.com wrote: I installed strawberry perl, went back to the script that had previously worked, edited out all my little attempts at troubleshooting, and--voila!!!--it worked as it did before it stopped working. Thanks for all your help and encouragement. oops! sorry, wrong list. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Suddenly the script is working!
I installed strawberry perl, went back to the script that had previously worked, edited out all my little attempts at troubleshooting, and--voila!!!--it worked as it did before it stopped working. Thanks for all your help and encouragement. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?
Hi, good night all: As I understand there are some official versions. I think that could be better that The Document Foundation only has one version for all languages for production and makes its firsts efforts to solve all the most important bugs (This would be by user and programmer votes) before to start a new version. In this way The Document Foundation assures to step up when the before version is really OK ! for all and production. I think is better go more slowly but complete all important issues of the official version than growing fast fast fast but would be with disorders. And in this time as I know the version of production even has bugs stand by to be solve. This words are because I appreciate so much the all efforts for get the best for Libre Office but some times when we don`t focus in the same we would loss some of them. Regards, Jorge Rodríguez El mié, 06-08-2014 a las 21:40 +0100, Tom Davies escribió: Hi :) I usually get mails from the Marketing List but didn't see any discussion about the new ideas for branch names. If i had i might have mentioned that Fresh vs Stagnant branch held some unfortunate connotations that might not have been obvious. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 20:57, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:54:10 +0200 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Paul, The fresh branch is stable enough for everyone to use. LibreOffice does not pilot planes, it does not usually crash, it does the job. There are people who want newer features and people who want more tested versions. There's food for everyone. Yes, there is, and no one is saying any different. In fact, I am saying that there are people who want both, and so *both* should be offered. But by your own admission, one of those branches is more stable. The difference might be slight, but it is enough for the people behind LO to continue to offer it when the newer, more featureful branch is also being offered. So for me first prize would be to have both branches as equal downloads on the LO download page. With a clear, concise explanation of what each offers, and a link to a slightly longer, fuller explanation. That is exactly what I am proposing should be done. But barring that, if LO wants to keep a single download as the primary download, as it currently is, then I am firm in my belief that the primary download should not be the less stable branch, but should instead be the more stable branch. More experienced users will know where to look for the version they require, but it is my belief that new users, the kind that will simply click on the big shiny download button, prefer stability over features. In the case of an office suite like LO, how much of the new features do they even use? Of course people want new features, I just think that new users would prefer stability, or even better yet, a clearly explained choice, rather than features at the expense of stability. If you have statistics to show otherwise, I'm sure you would have presented them by now. If you disagree, that is of course fine, but it remains purely our individual opinions until someone presents some pertinent facts. Although as far as I can tell from the responses, it seems most people here agree with me, so if I were the marketing team, I would give it careful consideration. Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to contribute to our marketing team. Well, this particular discussion was about how the downloads are presented, not about the names for each branch, and I have already made my opinions on the branch names clear, but I will reiterate them here for clarity: Still should be Stable Fresh *can* stay the same, but should rather be Current or Development Feel free to pass that on to the marketing team. I don't think I will be joining another mailing list, one with an agenda that I am largely not interested in, just to contribute that. This discussion was opened here, and I contributed my opinions; I am happy leaving it at that. I'm sure the right people are aware of this discussion, or, if not, that someone who is on both lists will pass along our sentiments. Paul Best, Charles. Le Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:07:41 +0200, Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za a écrit : Just to add another point... (see inline) On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:04:56 +0200 Paul paulste...@afrihost.co.za wrote: On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:01:19 +0200 Florian Reisinger flo...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi Tom, If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower Does this help? That is true, but it still
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice - Base...
Le 06/08/2014 08:08, David Love a écrit : Using LinuxMint v17.0 Qiana qith the MATE DE. I have Mint 17 Cinnamon Have followed with interest the recent discussins on Base and have decided to try and learn how to use it, using PostGreSQL as the backend. But - and there is always one of those :-) - how many of the multitude of postgrsql files in Synaptic do I need to install, please. postgresql-9.3 postgresql-client-9.3 postgresql-contrib-9.3 postgresql-doc-9.3 libpq5 libreoffice-base-drivers libreoffice-sdbc-postgresql That should probably do it. Note that the documentation is optional, but nonetheless useful ;-) It can be read in your browser by entering the following into the URL field file:///usr/share/doc/postgresql-doc-9.3/html/ Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
