Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
Hi :) I have quite enjoyed a lot of this discussion. I think a lot of the issues can't be fixed by the word-processor without blocking us from being able to mess around with stuff to give it our own personal flair. For example i tend to double-space at the end of sentences but if i was forced to do that and given no choice then i would resent it deeply. When i get on my bike to go home from work i could always turn left to go out across the fields and down to the river and maybe a pub and i quite fancy doing that but somehow almost always turn right and go home. If i was forced to always do one or the other i would resent it. It's having the choice that is important. LaTeX deals with some of these issues but by doing so it restricts people's possible choices. Another thing is that i tend to find that almost any final document produced by MS Office looks a bit shoddy and cheap. There is always something that has gone a little wrong that we just have to put up with. By contrast documents produced by LO just look so much more professional and polished that maybe we expect a bit too much from it sometimes. A tool that can blatantly never get the job done, like Word, is forgiven minor issues more easily than a tool that is almost perfect, like LO. Regards from Tom :) From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Wednesday, 21 August 2013, 1:01 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting On 08/20/2013 06:01 PM, William Wells wrote: While there is no ISO or equivalent, there are a lot of wannabe: In the US: The real expert (in the US) on this subject seems to be the Chicago Manual of Style. It sets forth what Publishers desire/want/will not accept unless it complies with regarding submissions. Brits have The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and Publishers among others, and the EU has its own Style Manual Oh, and for students, there is the Elements of Style. There are Academic Styles, Styles for Medical writing ad nauseum. So, the devs could lose many hours sleep trying to generate a program to cover all eventualities. I think there is a difference between a style for submitting a manuscript to a publisher and a style for final publication. I understand many publishers want manuscripts submitted in double spaced type, which they would never use when actually publishing the book. Our discussion has been more about good final product than initial submissions. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 8/21/13 3:26 AM, Tom Davies wrote: For example i tend to double-space at the end of sentences but if i was forced to do that and given no choice then i would resent it deeply. When i get on my bike to go home from work i could always turn left to go out across the fields and down to the river and maybe a pub and i quite fancy doing that but somehow almost always turn right and go home. If i was forced to always do one or the other i would resent it. It's having the choice that is important. LaTeX deals with some of these issues but by doing so it restricts people's possible choices. Hi, Tom, Unfortunately, your analogy doesn't work, in this case. When you go riding through the fields, you are really not affecting nor interacting with anyone. But, with writing, you are attempting to communicate with one or more individuals. If everyone does something different, how is the reader supposed accurately know what you are attempting to say/communicate? Whether or not there's two spaces at the end of the sentence doesn't make a lot of difference in that communication, IMO. But, I think it does effect the ease with which an individual can read the written word. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On Wed, 21 Aug 2013, Ken Springer wrote: [...] Whether or not there's two spaces at the end of the sentence doesn't make a lot of difference in that communication, IMO. But, I think it does effect the ease with which an individual can read the written word. did you mean the ease with which _some individuals_ can read the written word? I dislike double-spaces but I hardly see a difference, subjectively, in the ease of reading. can you cite a source for the claim it inhibits reading? don't feel obligated; I know Tom is trying, in his graceful way, to end the thread and it is probably overdrawn at this point. it is btw pretty easy to edit them out. F. -- Felmon Davis If you find a solution and become attached to it, the solution may become your next problem. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 08/19/2013 11:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Hi, Vigil, So, if I read your message correctly, there is no official body that sets typographic standards, only general conventions used by most, but may not be the best for end user/reader. Would that be correct? Not quite. I agree there is no official body that sets typographic standards, at least none of which I am aware. I also agree that there are general conventions that are used by most professional typographers. I do *not* agree that these conventions may not be best for the end user/reader. I honestly believe that one word space between sentences is best for the reader. I honestly believe it facilitates the smooth flow of reading. It might surprise you, but I was a slow convert to the one space between sentences convention. Like many here, I learned to type on an Underwood, with all the conventions that grew up with the typewriter. I learned to use 12-point Pica type, set one-inch page margins, indent paragraphs one half inch, double space my text, and put two spaces between sentences. When I graduated to a Windows word processor with proportionally spaced type, I kept using all of these conventions. After all, after 25 years of typing everything the same way, it looked right. I then came across a series of typography articles that stated that these typing conventions were actually deviations from typographic standards. They grew as concessions to the fixed-width type of the typewriter and letter-sized paper. But, professional typesetters using proportionally spaced type typically didn't use the same conventions. When was the last time you saw a book set in 12 point type, double spaced lines with one-half inch indents? I started examining the books I read with great reading comfort. *All* of them had type smaller than 12 points. *None* of them had double spaced lines or half-inch indents. They were *all* single spaced with paragraph indents of less than one half inch. And most of them, especially those printed after I was born, had only one word space after sentence ending punctuation. So, if everything I learned in typing class was right, how was it that all of these professionally published books got it wrong? More importantly, how was it that I was able to read all these books without stumbling over the words? They all looked just as right as my own papers that had been typed using typewriter conventions. I learned that the typewriter standards were based on the fact that we were using letter-sized paper and fixed-width type. You'll notice books tend to have much smaller pages. Larger paper means longer text lines, which means larger type, and wider line spacing. Fixed-width type also requires more definition between paragraphs and sentences, hence half-inch indents and two spaces between sentences. But, now we're beyond the Underwood technology. We're now using technology that mimics that of Gutenberg. It's time we left behind the shackles of the typewriter and embraced the better technology we can obtain. For my work, I now use 11-point type, single space my text and use paragraph indents of no more than 1/3 inch (2 picas). I set my left and right margins at about 1.75 inches (9.5 to 10.5 picas), specifically to increase white space in the margins and shorten the length of my lines. And, following the example of decades and decades of professionally printed books, I put only one word space between sentences. At first, my new practice looked weird. But, I found that my work now resembled that found in a book, instead of that typed on the typewriter. Once I began using typesetting standards instead of typewriter standards, my eyes grew accustomed to reading text that was properly set, with only one space between paragraphs. My eyes adjusted to a reading flow that was not interrupted by too much white space after a period. So, while I can appreciate that those accustomed to reading text with two sentence ending spaces might resist change, I cannot agree that their habits are actually best for the reader. To quote a very old Alka Seltzer commercial, Try it, you'll like it! Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
I mean can not and the substitution of which I spoke is what is made by the autocorrect feature. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
While there is no ISO or equivalent, there are a lot of wannabe: In the US: The real expert (in the US) on this subject seems to be the Chicago Manual of Style. It sets forth what Publishers desire/want/will not accept unless it complies with regarding submissions. Brits have The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and Publishers among others, and the EU has its own Style Manual Oh, and for students, there is the Elements of Style. There are Academic Styles, Styles for Medical writing ad nauseum. So, the devs could lose many hours sleep trying to generate a program to cover all eventualities. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 08/20/2013 06:01 PM, William Wells wrote: While there is no ISO or equivalent, there are a lot of wannabe: In the US: The real expert (in the US) on this subject seems to be the Chicago Manual of Style. It sets forth what Publishers desire/want/will not accept unless it complies with regarding submissions. Brits have The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and Publishers among others, and the EU has its own Style Manual Oh, and for students, there is the Elements of Style. There are Academic Styles, Styles for Medical writing ad nauseum. So, the devs could lose many hours sleep trying to generate a program to cover all eventualities. I think there is a difference between a style for submitting a manuscript to a publisher and a style for final publication. I understand many publishers want manuscripts submitted in double spaced type, which they would never use when actually publishing the book. Our discussion has been more about good final product than initial submissions. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:01:57 -0400 Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: I think there is a difference between a style for submitting a manuscript to a publisher and a style for final publication. I understand many publishers want manuscripts submitted in double spaced type, which they would never use when actually publishing the book. Our discussion has been more about good final product than initial submissions. True, but with that we've moved quite far from the discussion about what LO can and cannot do. As far as I can see, these standards/conventions are about: font size line spacing margins paragraph indentation inter-word and inter-sentance spacing. I realise LO can't be all things to all people, but what I've understood so far as that LO can do all but the last point. With justified text that last point may not be relevant, and it may not be a good convention for final product, but for some people it will still be relevant, and they should ideally have the choice. Is this something that can be added to LO? Should there be an enhancement request for this? Are there other points that need to be addressed in addition to those listed so far? Has someone tested a regex search/replace for this as a workaround (I think someone tried something that didn't work, but it wasn't a regex)? Just my R0.02 Paul -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence point, than the space between words. Even more, the inter word space is dependent of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable. That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double space after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not have way to insert end of sentence spaces. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
I tried with autocorrect to insert a wider space from the corresponding unicode character, but autocorrect does not replace '. ' (dot space). So its useless. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
LO does not replace [.][ ] with [.][another kind of space]. Probably because regular expressions only detect 'space' without any qualification. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
I repeated the experiment. LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 Linux Libertine G, 12 pt. I wrote a name with a initial, with and without a dot. The space between words is highlighted to make clear its width. To aling the two paragraphs, used a dot at the start of the first group of words. Both paragraphs are left aligned, therefore any change in space should be for a proportional space between after a dot different from the space between words. In this case, the space should be less than a normal space as in Dr._Name. From the image 14, you can see that isn't any difference in spacing. Repeating the experience with justification, the spacing is expanded a little, but I can't see clearly if its only after punctuations or also between words. Look at the second image (screenshot15). Conclusion: LibreOffice does not change the interword spacing in an intelligent manner as LaTeX does, being this software the best example of superb typography. So, if any typist use two spaces after and end of sentence dot, is in average reducing the interword spacing and increasing the end of sentence spacing in a visible manner. Also, this problem is not also from an end of sentence. It is also, for the space after the titles (Mr.[space]name) and for the space after ':' and after ';'. It is also known that in France, must be a small space before the end of sentence dot. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
At 06:53 19/08/2013 -0600, Denis J Navas wrote: LO does not replace [.][ ] with [.][another kind of space]. Probably because regular expressions only detect 'space' without any qualification. Do you mean does not? (In which case I don't see where regular expressions come into it.) We'd probably not want it to. Or do you mean cannot? You can make this change using Find Replace. You need to have Regular expressions off, of course - or to escape the dot by preceding it with a backslash. And you need to use a font that includes the space character you are trying to insert. I trust this helps. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 08/19/2013 08:44 AM, Denis J Navas wrote: LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence point, than the space between words. Even more, the inter word space is dependent of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable. That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double space after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not have way to insert end of sentence spaces. While that is the default LaTeX setting, every time I use LaTeX, I insert the \frenchspacing command in my preamble, so that LaTeX will conform to the current generally accepted standard of using only a single word space after sentences. While LaTeX produces beautiful results, it is a computing tool, not a typographic standard. The creator of the default behavior has, in fact, *deviated* from the standard of typography by ignoring the current standard of using only one word space after sentence ending punctuation. I'm not saying everybody has to conform to the standard, but it would be somewhat naive to pretend that the standard doesn't exist. I know I said I would let it go, but I just couldn't resist. :) Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 8/19/13 7:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 08/19/2013 08:44 AM, Denis J Navas wrote: LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence point, than the space between words. Even more, the inter word space is dependent of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable. That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double space after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not have way to insert end of sentence spaces. While that is the default LaTeX setting, every time I use LaTeX, I insert the \frenchspacing command in my preamble, so that LaTeX will conform to the current generally accepted standard of using only a single word space after sentences. While LaTeX produces beautiful results, it is a computing tool, not a typographic standard. The creator of the default behavior has, in fact, *deviated* from the standard of typography by ignoring the current standard of using only one word space after sentence ending punctuation. I'm not saying everybody has to conform to the standard, but it would be somewhat naive to pretend that the standard doesn't exist. I know I said I would let it go, but I just couldn't resist. :) Hi, Vigil, So, if I read your message correctly, there is no official body that sets typographic standards, only general conventions used by most, but may not be the best for end user/reader. Would that be correct? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
Thanks Tim, exactly what I was trying to express as briefly as possible. Brian, the spoken word is more important and critical than the written word, in initial development of the human being. I don't have to be a psychologist to know that, just observed the growth of my children. So if we are taught correctly, we learn to firstly speak, then are taught to use our breathing, with pauses as we move on to read and understand any written text. Many teachers, and all of the ones I have been taught by, and my children taught by, have emphasised and enforced this. One does not have to be a public speaker, as this process starts from the first time all of us start to read and write at entry level school, and possibly prior to that from our parents, in reading aloud to an audience. So it starts there, and then progresses in the way we should be reading, and writing. And yes I can breath and read at the same time, that's not the real point. And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally and in the mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other. And as to plain text it still has a font, mainly a sans serif one, even if not identified. In the old early days of computer, in whatever they were, it was a rudimentary machine font, I'm under correction, but much like Fixedsys. Microsoft then created their own font, called Microsoft sans serif and MS sans serif, almost identical but with some subtle differences. all of this was related to the poor screen/display technologies of the time. Today even in a plain text document one can choose any font of choice now, and correctly covered by Tim, in email clients. As to the font right now I am typing in, is in Mozilla Thunderbird, and the font is Colibri, a sans serif one, which is the default one for Thunderbird, under Windows 7 that is. Regards Andrew Brown On 17/08/2013 09:22 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote: At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote: In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space. This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable public speaking. Those of us who can read without moving our lips do not need breaths between sentences! I can breathe and read at the same time; can't you? The true purpose of punctuation in written material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud. Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans serif font ... That's what you think! You sent this message in plain text, so no font was identified. How I read it or anyone else does depends on how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it. I'm doing the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I don't know how you will see it. Brian Barker In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is Times New Roman, but I now use DejaVu Serif. I then get to choose what font the email is written in, with the current default as Times. I just chose DejaVu Serif for the font of this text that I have typed here. So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose. As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or others of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and punctuation in their text. We need them whether we read a text out load or silently. The internal punctuation gives you structure and also gives you a sense of pausing where the author wants such a thing to emphasize some word or portion of the text. The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence just by changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks. Of course over the 30+ years between high-school and the last college writing course, the standards and rules have changes on what is needed where and how best to use a comma or semicolon. But without these in the text of books that I personally like to read, it would not be as easy to read as it is now. As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses and majors can be needed to make the best guess on the science of what fonts are best for what and which fonts are more readable than others. Book Publishers know what it best in the different types of books that publish. One font for text books, another for entertainment reading. The hard cover book fonts can be different than the paper back ones as well. There is a science involved in the choosing of the proper fonts. I just decide which looks best for me for ease of
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Andrew Brown wrote: [...] And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally and in the mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other. [...] German requires a comma between main clauses and subordinate clauses, for instance: ich sehe, dass er redet or I see that he's talking. there is no breath between those clauses in German or English. German also capitalizes every noun; what aspect of vocalization is that supposed to correspond to? apostrophes aren't vocalized either. two different media, speech and written word, one for the eye, one for the ear. f. On 17/08/2013 09:22 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote: At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote: In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space. This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable public speaking. Those of us who can read without moving our lips do not need breaths between sentences! I can breathe and read at the same time; can't you? The true purpose of punctuation in written material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud. Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans serif font ... That's what you think! You sent this message in plain text, so no font was identified. How I read it or anyone else does depends on how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it. I'm doing the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I don't know how you will see it. Brian Barker In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is Times New Roman, but I now use DejaVu Serif. I then get to choose what font the email is written in, with the current default as Times. I just chose DejaVu Serif for the font of this text that I have typed here. So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose. As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or others of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and punctuation in their text. We need them whether we read a text out load or silently. The internal punctuation gives you structure and also gives you a sense of pausing where the author wants such a thing to emphasize some word or portion of the text. The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence just by changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks. Of course over the 30+ years between high-school and the last college writing course, the standards and rules have changes on what is needed where and how best to use a comma or semicolon. But without these in the text of books that I personally like to read, it would not be as easy to read as it is now. As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses and majors can be needed to make the best guess on the science of what fonts are best for what and which fonts are more readable than others. Book Publishers know what it best in the different types of books that publish. One font for text books, another for entertainment reading. The hard cover book fonts can be different than the paper back ones as well. There is a science involved in the choosing of the proper fonts. I just decide which looks best for me for ease of reading. I am told Serif fonts work the best for entertainment reading, but which serif font is the best, only you can decide which one in your fonts collection works best for you. . -- Felmon Davis Nagging is the repetition of unpalatable truths. -- Baroness Edith Summerskill -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
At 12:41 18/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote: Thanks Tim, exactly what I was trying to express as briefly as possible. Even though most of what he said was wrong? Brian, the spoken word is more important and critical than the written word, ... So you are not talking about punctuation like the rest of us, then - which occurs only in written text (unless you are Victor Borge, that is)? (And I fear devotees of the Torah, the Bible, the Qur'an, and a hundred other similar texts would dispute your suggestion anyway!) [Snipped: rest of paragraph talking about pauses in speaking, nothing about punctuation.] And yes I can breath[e] and read at the same time, that's not the real point. For those of us who read without moving our lips, it is. And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally and in the mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other. The purpose of punctuation is for reading? Well, yes: if you don't read the message you don't need the punctuation! (Otherwise, this says nothing.) And as to plain text it still has a font, ... Sorry, but that's plain nonsense. In order to display plain text, you need to use a font. But you can choose any font, and that font is your choice (or your software's), not part of the plain text. What do you think plain means here? Today even in a plain text document one can choose any font ... Exactly: which proves the point that the plain text itself does *not* have a font. ... and correctly covered by Tim, ... As I say (and explained separately), he was mainly incorrect, in fact. As to the font right now I am typing in, is in Mozilla Thunderbird, and the font is Colibri, a sans serif one, ... That's what you are seeing, but this mailing list (for example) distributes only a plain text version of your message, which has lost this property. See also Felmon Davis's excellent examples. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
To add to this discussion of readability of text, spacing and punctuation is only a small portion of it. In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space. Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans serif font (for those not understanding serif and sans serif, sans serif fonts have no leading lines on the edge of the character). Sans serif fonts create a much harder font to read. It has been found that a serif font with normal punctuation and spacing leads the eye to faster reading as opposed to sans serif. Man tests have been done with this. So the article written in the provided link, is found to be hard to read as it is a sans serif font used. Regards Andrew Brown On 16/08/2013 11:08 PM, James Knott wrote: Michael wrote: 1) Although the article was difficult to read, I think it would have been easier on the eyes (mine, anyway) if there was more space between the sentences. This is my point exactly. When there's extra space between sentences, it's a lot easier to isolate the sentence from the surrounding text. You have to look for the period, which may be more difficult to see, depending on the letter it follows. For example a period following a k is harder to discern than one following a o. This means the reader has to do extra work, while the eye is naturally equipped to recognize the extra space. So, the choice is search for the sentence or automagically recognize it. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 08/16/2013 11:18 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2013-08-16 8:22 PM James Knott wrote: I just tried a little experiment. I typed a sentence, with a period at the end. I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n. I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the n. After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor and resulting space was wider. I tried the same experiment. There was no change in position. James, I wonder if your paragraph alignment was set to justified. If so, the letters might move side to side as you continue to type the line. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 17 August 2013 03:47, Andrew Brown andre...@icon.co.za wrote: It has been found that a serif font with normal punctuation and spacing leads the eye to faster reading as opposed to sans serif. Man tests have been done with this. So the article written in the provided link, is found to be hard to read as it is a sans serif font used. Well, yes and no. In reading text on paper, readers in several European countries tend to do better with sans-serif text than text with serifs. Most people in the U.S. prefer text with serifs. But when it comes to reading text on a screen (especially in medium-to-low resolutions and almost always with small text) most readers tend to do better with sans-serif text (serifs tend not to display well). -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote: In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space. This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable public speaking. Those of us who can read without moving our lips do not need breaths between sentences! I can breathe and read at the same time; can't you? The true purpose of punctuation in written material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud. Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans serif font ... That's what you think! You sent this message in plain text, so no font was identified. How I read it or anyone else does depends on how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it. I'm doing the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I don't know how you will see it. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote: At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote: In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space. This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable public speaking. Those of us who can read without moving our lips do not need breaths between sentences! I can breathe and read at the same time; can't you? The true purpose of punctuation in written material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud. Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans serif font ... That's what you think! You sent this message in plain text, so no font was identified. How I read it or anyone else does depends on how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it. I'm doing the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I don't know how you will see it. Brian Barker In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is Times New Roman, but I now use DejaVu Serif. I then get to choose what font the email is written in, with the current default as Times. I just chose DejaVu Serif for the font of this text that I have typed here. So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose. As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or others of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and punctuation in their text. We need them whether we read a text out load or silently. The internal punctuation gives you structure and also gives you a sense of pausing where the author wants such a thing to emphasize some word or portion of the text. The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence just by changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks. Of course over the 30+ years between high-school and the last college writing course, the standards and rules have changes on what is needed where and how best to use a comma or semicolon. But without these in the text of books that I personally like to read, it would not be as easy to read as it is now. As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses and majors can be needed to make the best guess on the science of what fonts are best for what and which fonts are more readable than others. Book Publishers know what it best in the different types of books that publish. One font for text books, another for entertainment reading. The hard cover book fonts can be different than the paper back ones as well. There is a science involved in the choosing of the proper fonts. I just decide which looks best for me for ease of reading. I am told Serif fonts work the best for entertainment reading, but which serif font is the best, only you can decide which one in your fonts collection works best for you. . -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:22:43 -0400 Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose. Actually, that's only if you're sending html content. If you're sending plain text, no you can't. And even if you're sending html, you should also be sending plaintext alongside it, for people like me that are (most of the time, unless I choose otherwise) reading the plaintext version. If you don't I just see the plaintext with the html tags in it. I choose what font it displays in, so no, you have absolutely no control over what font I see things in, unless I switch to html view. I'm sure you know all that, but I felt it was worth pointing out for the poor people out there using things like Outlook who don't know any better. Paul -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
At 15:22 17/08/2013 -0400, Tim Lungstrom wrote: In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is Times New Roman, but I now use DejaVu Serif. This is very confused. What do you mean by your email: presumably messages you *receive* - other people's messages, that is? Yes, exactly so - so their authors *don't* get to say how their messages appear to you. I then get to choose what font the email is written in, with the current default as Times. I just chose DejaVu Serif for the font of this text that I have typed here. You think you are choosing the font in which your correspondents will see your messages. But you have just contradicted that above, by saying (correctly) that as a recipient you can overrule such formatting choices. So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not have a font identifier built in, ... (You are now talking received messages again, right?) Correct - but also even if the text was formatted, in fact. In the case of this mailing list, for example, only the plain text version of what you send is distributed, so your formatting is lost before your text reaches anyone. ... and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose. You can try, but you'll generally fail - for reasons including the one you give yourself. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 2013-08-17 4:39 PM Brian Barker wrote:(You are now talking received messages again, right?) Correct - but also even if the text was formatted, in fact. In the case of this mailing list, for example, only the plain text version of what you send is distributed, so your formatting is lost before your text reaches anyone.Does this list strip HTML messages? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 8/15/13 8:28 AM, James Knott wrote: So, how would it tell the difference between the end of a sentence, terminated with a period and a sentence containing a period used as part of an abbreviation such as Dr. or etc.? An idea I haven't actually tried, but might work... Use the different Auto Correct options, until you get what you wish. Create a Replace option that is [period][space][space] and have your word processor replace it with [period][space character of your choice]. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
Michael wrote: 1) Although the article was difficult to read, I think it would have been easier on the eyes (mine, anyway) if there was more space between the sentences. This is my point exactly. When there's extra space between sentences, it's a lot easier to isolate the sentence from the surrounding text. You have to look for the period, which may be more difficult to see, depending on the letter it follows. For example a period following a k is harder to discern than one following a o. This means the reader has to do extra work, while the eye is naturally equipped to recognize the extra space. So, the choice is search for the sentence or automagically recognize it. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 8/16/13 6:28 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 08/16/2013 10:50 AM, James Knott wrote: Brian Barker wrote: I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch text as on a typewriter A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is created. It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is easier on the eyes. James, I think the typographic experts would say that the extra space results in a visual pause after each sentence. Reading is intended to be a smooth flow, which is facilitated with single spaces after sentences. Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do you find reading books difficult? Isn't part of this discussion the width of the space between sentences? It's sometimes hard to determine that in printed matter. But I find that a regular space between sentences makes reading harder, but too much space causes me to pause. So there must be a general happy medium here, which I always thought was the em-space. I fully appreciate your preference, but it seems to be in the distinct minority as far as what the experts believe is the best practice. Virgil -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
Ken Springer wrote: So there must be a general happy medium here, which I always thought was the em-space. And that goes back to my earlier comment about en and em quads in hand set type. A slightly wider space makes it easier to read, because of the way we recognize objects. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
James Knott wrote: Ken Springer wrote: So there must be a general happy medium here, which I always thought was the em-space. And that goes back to my earlier comment about en and em quads in hand set type. A slightly wider space makes it easier to read, because of the way we recognize objects. I just tried a little experiment. I typed a sentence, with a period at the end. I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n. I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the n. After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor and resulting space was wider. I tried again with an i as the first letter and the same thing happened, but the shift was not as great. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 2013-08-16 8:22 PM James Knott wrote: I just tried a little experiment. I typed a sentence, with a period at the end. I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n. I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the n. After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor and resulting space was wider. I tried the same experiment. There was no change in position. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Can't find setting
On 2013-08-16 8:08 PM James Knott wrote: Virgil Arrington wrote: Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do you find reading books difficult? I just picked up the closest book I had at hand. It's Computer Networks, by Andrew Tanenbaum David Wetherall, 5th edition, published in 2012 by Pearson.. It has wider spacing between sentences than words. Second book I picked off my bookshelf is Ethernet The Definitive Guide by Charles Spurgeon, 1st edition, 2000, from O'Reilly. It also has wider spacing between sentences. That's 2 for 2 of the first 2 books I grabbed. Every book I looked at had one space between sentences. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
