subject:"Re\: \[libreoffice\-users\] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users\?"


On 08/08/2012 03:57 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 08/08/12 00:11, Steve Morris wrote:


Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office 
can't migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 
2002, 


IMHO that's not true


let alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day 
to day and is critical to the organisation in order for their various 
business units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not 
provide, even in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc 
disallows (as far as I can see for no good reason). 


Having worked for 20-odd years as a Management/Systems accountant in 
many varieties and sizes of organisations ranging from one-man band 
traders to medium/large PLCs I have never seen any business use Office 
in that manner.
Usually Excel is used to interpret data extracted from an 
Accounting/CRM/ERM database, which Calc can do perfectly well.
Word is used mostly for typing letters - complex documents are few and 
far between. Presentations can be produced equally well using 
PowerPoint or Impress.




Another reason for not migrating is also the steep learning curve, 
both with front end functionality and macros, that business cannot 
afford to undertake due to the loss of time and resources.





Given my experience as above, most businesses I worked in didn't use 
macros at all. In fact in some they were deliberately disabled as a 
security risk.


As to the learning curve - there's a far smaller learning curve 
migrating from MS Office 2003 and prior to LO than there is migrating 
to Office 2007/2010 - so that doesn't stack up either.



I would add another problem is a lack of diligence about what the 
company actually needs and what alternatives are available: cloud,, 
FOSS, and commercial. As much FUD I see about how difficult it is to use 
Ubuntu I would expect there is some FUD about how difficult any other 
office suite/cloud solution is to use. The basic interface of LO/AOO is 
a typical program GUI interface users have seen before. The only 
difference is exactly where some of the tools are and the all the basic 
tools are there.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   Gordon, you're correct, but trying to convince many - especially
businesses - of this logic, can be next to impossible  ;-)

   For some reason, the training is done on MSFT machines with MSFT
programs and the idea of change is scary even if this change will protect
their machines from these hackers ...; and sending the documents can be
done in various formats to suit the receiver.

   The only thing I do after clicking on to send to another format, is
to check to see if all is as I had prepared; I've found that documents
transfer well but the timing in Impress files is off - this takes merely a
moment to fix.



On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.comwrote:

On 08/08/12 00:11, Steve Morris wrote:


 Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office can't
 migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002,


 IMHO that's not true



  let alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to
 day and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
 units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide, even
 in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I can
 see for no good reason).


 Having worked for 20-odd years as a Management/Systems accountant in many
 varieties and sizes of organisations ranging from one-man band traders to
 medium/large PLCs I have never seen any business use Office in that manner.
 Usually Excel is used to interpret data extracted from an
 Accounting/CRM/ERM database, which Calc can do perfectly well.
 Word is used mostly for typing letters - complex documents are few and far
 between. Presentations can be produced equally well using PowerPoint or
 Impress.




  Another reason for not migrating is also the steep learning curve, both
 with front end functionality and macros, that business cannot afford to
 undertake due to the loss of time and resources.



 Given my experience as above, most businesses I worked in didn't use
 macros at all. In fact in some they were deliberately disabled as a
 security risk.

 As to the learning curve - there's a far smaller learning curve
 migrating from MS Office 2003 and prior to LO than there is migrating to
 Office 2007/2010 - so that doesn't stack up either.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   Tom, well done.

   Maybe those at LO will listen, but I don't know what more they could
do;
   the problem probably originates from the States due to the
massive use of MSFT products ... hackers attack these ... MSFT responds
with their endless stream of fixes ... hackers continue to attack the
loop-holes ... ... ...
  yet folks still are afraid to get away from MSFT products  ;-)



On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Hi :)
 I have forwarded this to the marketing team for them to discuss because
 there are a lot of the BoD on that list.  However i am far more unpopular
 there than i am on this list so they will probably just ignore it as
 trolling or some-such.

 If, like me, you want to see LO succeed and believe some of these issue
 may indeed be holding LO back or setting up bigger problems for the
 future then feel free to take up the discussion there or even better
 forwards it to the discuss list.

 I think the original op of this thread wanted to avoid getting bogged down
 in all this and just wanted practical comments on issues arising from
 trying to share with the 90% (or thereabouts, depending on geography) of
 computer users that still use MSO.  Perhaps just a few pointers on how to
 get better results from sharing.

 Regards from
 Tom :)




 From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office
 Users?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Wednesday, 8 August, 2012, 3:26

 On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:
  From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large
 college
  with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality.
 99.9%
  of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the .1% that
  would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway. Plus,
  it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want
 them.
 
  The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for
 the
  IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far as the
 IT
  department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the
 budget
  is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that is if
 it
  is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other microsoft
  licences.
 
  Office = safe.
  LO = risky + more work.
 I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
 MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
 execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

 The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
 (LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
 business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
 suite difficult to use.
 
 
  On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:
 
 
  Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office
 can't
  migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002,
 let
  alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to day
  and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
  units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide,
 even
  in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I
 can
  see for no good reason). Another reason for not migrating is also the
 steep
  learning curve, both with front end functionality and macros, that
 business
  cannot afford to undertake due to the loss of time and resources.
 
  regards,
  Steve
 


 --
 Jay Lozier
 jsloz...@gmail.com



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?


On 08/08/2012 10:10 AM, anne-ology wrote:

Tom, well done.

Maybe those at LO will listen, but I don't know what more they could
do;
the problem probably originates from the States due to the
massive use of MSFT products ... hackers attack these ... MSFT responds
with their endless stream of fixes ... hackers continue to attack the
loop-holes ... ... ...
   yet folks still are afraid to get away from MSFT products  ;-)
Spreading FUD about other options other than MS products is very common. 
I do not know how often I have seen someone say how difficult Linux is 
to use or that most users need to use advanced features in MSO. The last 
IMHO is silly, most users do not use more than a few of the features 
regularly and do not know of many of the advanced features in MSO. The 
only real issue I see is that exact layout of the GUI is somewhat 
different and this may cause some issues initially.


I remember trying to get others to use Word templates many years ago and 
failing. They could not grasp the concept of a pre-defined, standard 
template. If users have trouble with  a fairly basic and very handy 
feature I doubt they use any advanced features.


While I do not share ODF formats because the others I work with have MSO 
versions from 2003 to 2010, I have not found either the files I receive 
or send to be much more than plain Jane spreadsheets or Word/Write 
documents. Basically there is minimal formating and only basic features 
are used. Other than being displayed in a pretty format, these documents 
are not much more complex than typical documents from the mid to late 80's.




On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Hi :)

I have forwarded this to the marketing team for them to discuss because
there are a lot of the BoD on that list.  However i am far more unpopular
there than i am on this list so they will probably just ignore it as
trolling or some-such.

If, like me, you want to see LO succeed and believe some of these issue
may indeed be holding LO back or setting up bigger problems for the
future then feel free to take up the discussion there or even better
forwards it to the discuss list.

I think the original op of this thread wanted to avoid getting bogged down
in all this and just wanted practical comments on issues arising from
trying to share with the 90% (or thereabouts, depending on geography) of
computer users that still use MSO.  Perhaps just a few pointers on how to
get better results from sharing.

Regards from
Tom :)




From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office
Users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 8 August, 2012, 3:26

On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:

From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large

college

with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality.

99.9%

of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the .1% that
would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway. Plus,
it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want

them.

The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for

the

IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far as the

IT

department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the

budget

is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that is if

it

is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other microsoft
licences.

Office = safe.
LO = risky + more work.

I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
(LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
suite difficult to use.


On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:


Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office

can't

migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002,

let

alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to day
and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide,

even

in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I

can

see for no good reason). Another reason for not migrating is also the

steep

learning curve, both with front end functionality and macros, that

business

cannot afford to undertake due to the loss of time and resources.

regards,
Steve



--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com





--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   Jay, you're speaking logically; too few people today seem to think
logically - or to even think  ;-)



On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote:

On 08/08/2012 10:10 AM, anne-ology wrote:

 Tom, well done.

 Maybe those at LO will listen, but I don't know what more they
 could
 do;
 the problem probably originates from the States due to the
 massive use of MSFT products ... hackers attack these ... MSFT responds
 with their endless stream of fixes ... hackers continue to attack the
 loop-holes ... ... ...
yet folks still are afraid to get away from MSFT products
  ;-)

 Spreading FUD about other options other than MS products is very common. I
 do not know how often I have seen someone say how difficult Linux is to use
 or that most users need to use advanced features in MSO. The last IMHO is
 silly, most users do not use more than a few of the features regularly and
 do not know of many of the advanced features in MSO. The only real issue I
 see is that exact layout of the GUI is somewhat different and this may
 cause some issues initially.

 I remember trying to get others to use Word templates many years ago and
 failing. They could not grasp the concept of a pre-defined, standard
 template. If users have trouble with  a fairly basic and very handy feature
 I doubt they use any advanced features.

 While I do not share ODF formats because the others I work with have MSO
 versions from 2003 to 2010, I have not found either the files I receive or
 send to be much more than plain Jane spreadsheets or Word/Write
 documents. Basically there is minimal formating and only basic features are
 used. Other than being displayed in a pretty format, these documents are
 not much more complex than typical documents from the mid to late 80's.




 On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
 wrote:

 Hi :)

 I have forwarded this to the marketing team for them to discuss because
 there are a lot of the BoD on that list.  However i am far more unpopular
 there than i am on this list so they will probably just ignore it as
 trolling or some-such.

 If, like me, you want to see LO succeed and believe some of these issue
 may indeed be holding LO back or setting up bigger problems for the
 future then feel free to take up the discussion there or even better
 forwards it to the discuss list.

 I think the original op of this thread wanted to avoid getting bogged
 down
 in all this and just wanted practical comments on issues arising from
 trying to share with the 90% (or thereabouts, depending on geography) of
 computer users that still use MSO.  Perhaps just a few pointers on how to
 get better results from sharing.

 Regards from
 Tom :)




 From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS
 Office
 Users?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Wednesday, 8 August, 2012, 3:26

 On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:

 From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large

 college

 with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality.

 99.9%

 of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the .1%
 that
 would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway.
 Plus,
 it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want

 them.

 The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for

 the

 IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far as the

 IT

 department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the

 budget

 is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that is if

 it

 is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other microsoft
 licences.

 Office = safe.
 LO = risky + more work.

 I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
 MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
 execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

 The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
 (LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
 business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
 suite difficult to use.


 On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:

  Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office

 can't

 migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002,

 let

 alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to day
 and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
 units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide,

 even

 in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I

 can

 see for no good reason). Another reason for not migrating is also the

 steep

 learning curve, both with front end functionality and macros, that

 business

 cannot

Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 08/08/12 15:01, anne-ology wrote:

Gordon, you're correct, but trying to convince many - especially
businesses - of this logic, can be next to impossible  ;-)


The problem doesn't seem to be so much with management not wanting to 
change - it seems to be with fear of the IT dept. Many companies still 
seem to be under the dictat of the IT dept and allow the IT dept to do 
what it wants rather than management telling the IT dept what it wants 
and please implement it! The IT dept is there to provide a SERVICE to 
the company, not the other way around!


The howls of anguish that came from USERS when their IT depts foisted 
the ribboned Office 2007 on them had to be heard to be believed.
But of course to trot out the old saying - no-one gets fired for buying 
Microsoft.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?


On 08/08/2012 01:39 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 08/08/12 15:01, anne-ology wrote:

Gordon, you're correct, but trying to convince many - especially
businesses - of this logic, can be next to impossible  ;-)


The problem doesn't seem to be so much with management not wanting to 
change - it seems to be with fear of the IT dept. Many companies still 
seem to be under the dictat of the IT dept and allow the IT dept to do 
what it wants rather than management telling the IT dept what it wants 
and please implement it! The IT dept is there to provide a SERVICE to 
the company, not the other way around!


The howls of anguish that came from USERS when their IT depts foisted 
the ribboned Office 2007 on them had to be heard to be believed.
But of course to trot out the old saying - no-one gets fired for 
buying Microsoft.


I remember when the saying was No one gets fired for buying IBM. In 
some cases it is the IT department but I think many times it is 
management. I had very technically illiterate bosses who would follow 
the rule of No one gets fired for buying Microsoft even when you had a 
strong case for not buying MS.


Also, I remember that some of the office suite competitors of the 80's 
and early 90's never adapted their suites to use a GUI effectively. 
Wordperfect on a Mac was a disaster while Word and Excel worked very 
well on the late 80's Macs. When MS introduced Win95 they were well 
positioned to implement a good GUI for MSOffice, they had already do it 
once on the Mac.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread James Knott


Jay Lozier wrote:
When MS introduced Win95 they were well positioned to implement a good 
GUI for MSOffice, they had already do it once on the Mac. 


Check out Novell vs Microsoft for info on how Microsoft used hidden API 
on Windows to ensure their apps worked better than the competition.  
That case is in relation to Word Perfect, but Borland also found the 
same thing re hidden APIs.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?


95On 08/08/2012 03:59 PM, James Knott wrote:

Jay Lozier wrote:
When MS introduced Win95 they were well positioned to implement a 
good GUI for MSOffice, they had already do it once on the Mac. 


Check out Novell vs Microsoft for info on how Microsoft used hidden 
API on Windows to ensure their apps worked better than the 
competition.  That case is in relation to Word Perfect, but Borland 
also found the same thing re hidden APIs.



From using Wordperfect, Word, and others on a Mac years ago, 
Wordperfect was a miserable, rabid dog. Yes, MS played dirty but there 
was a good bit of incompetence with Wordperfect (and others) well before 
the Win95 era. I am talking late 80's on a Mac. Many vendors had no 
trouble writing good software for the Mac back then. Wordperfect was 
harshly criticized for their sloppy Mac port. I was a Mac user back 
then. If they could not implement the Mac GUI why would you expect them 
to implement any other GUI correctly? I did not back then. The hidden 
API's only made things worse and their incompetence more glaring.


I did try Wordperfect on a Mac in the late 80's because it had some 
features at that time no one else had available but found it almost 
impossible to use. My impression then was they did not try to understand 
how any GUI worked and did not want to understand. So the fact they 
failed was not a surprise to me.


I know circa 85 early versions of Word and Excel available on the Mac 
and worked very well. At the time MS paid attention to the Mac API's and 
GUI concepts. When Win95 came out MS had about 10 years of successful 
experience with GUI's. Personally, I think the hidden API's issue was 
partly true and partly an excuse for being caught unready. GUI's had 
been successfully commercialized by Apple and Amiga in the 80's. Those 
that made good software for GUI's had an advantage when Win95 came out 
even with MS playing dirty.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread Steve Edmonds


Sounds a lot like the battered wife syndrome.
steve

On 2012-08-09 02:10, anne-ology wrote:

Tom, well done.

Maybe those at LO will listen, but I don't know what more they could
do;
the problem probably originates from the States due to the
massive use of MSFT products ... hackers attack these ... MSFT responds
with their endless stream of fixes ... hackers continue to attack the
loop-holes ... ... ...
   yet folks still are afraid to get away from MSFT products  ;-)



On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Hi :)

I have forwarded this to the marketing team for them to discuss because
there are a lot of the BoD on that list.  However i am far more unpopular
there than i am on this list so they will probably just ignore it as
trolling or some-such.

If, like me, you want to see LO succeed and believe some of these issue
may indeed be holding LO back or setting up bigger problems for the
future then feel free to take up the discussion there or even better
forwards it to the discuss list.

I think the original op of this thread wanted to avoid getting bogged down
in all this and just wanted practical comments on issues arising from
trying to share with the 90% (or thereabouts, depending on geography) of
computer users that still use MSO.  Perhaps just a few pointers on how to
get better results from sharing.

Regards from
Tom :)




From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office
Users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 8 August, 2012, 3:26

On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:

From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large

college

with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality.

99.9%

of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the .1% that
would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway. Plus,
it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want

them.

The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for

the

IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far as the

IT

department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the

budget

is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that is if

it

is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other microsoft
licences.

Office = safe.
LO = risky + more work.

I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
(LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
suite difficult to use.


On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:


Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office

can't

migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002,

let

alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to day
and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide,

even

in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I

can

see for no good reason). Another reason for not migrating is also the

steep

learning curve, both with front end functionality and macros, that

business

cannot afford to undertake due to the loss of time and resources.

regards,
Steve



--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread Steve Morris



On 09/08/12 00:56, Jay Lozier wrote:

On 08/08/2012 10:10 AM, anne-ology wrote:

Tom, well done.

Maybe those at LO will listen, but I don't know what more 
they could

do;
the problem probably originates from the States due to the
massive use of MSFT products ... hackers attack these ... MSFT responds
with their endless stream of fixes ... hackers continue to attack the
loop-holes ... ... ...
   yet folks still are afraid to get away from MSFT 
products  ;-)
Spreading FUD about other options other than MS products is very 
common. I do not know how often I have seen someone say how difficult 
Linux is to use or that most users need to use advanced features in 
MSO. The last IMHO is silly, most users do not use more than a few of 
the features regularly and do not know of many of the advanced 
features in MSO. The only real issue I see is that exact layout of the 
GUI is somewhat different and this may cause some issues initially.


I remember trying to get others to use Word templates many years ago 
and failing. They could not grasp the concept of a pre-defined, 
standard template. If users have trouble with  a fairly basic and very 
handy feature I doubt they use any advanced features.


While I do not share ODF formats because the others I work with have 
MSO versions from 2003 to 2010, I have not found either the files I 
receive or send to be much more than plain Jane spreadsheets or 
Word/Write documents. Basically there is minimal formating and only 
basic features are used. Other than being displayed in a pretty 
format, these documents are not much more complex than typical 
documents from the mid to late 80's.


Without going into too much of the detail that is in another thread, I 
was talking about basic functionality in Calc with things like 
pivottables and charts. In the environment I work in I don't think there 
is a spreadsheet that non-automatically produced, right across the 
business, that does not have a pivottable. Excel allows features that 
either Calc refuses to allow, or Calc implements (in my view) in a 
really archaic way. Charts are the same. Also I'm a SAS developer, and I 
write lots of processes that automatically produce excel spreadsheets 
without the requirement to use excel, and, as far as I am aware it does 
not provide facilities for anything other than excel, so we couldn't 
migrate.


regards,
Steve




On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
wrote:


Hi :)

I have forwarded this to the marketing team for them to discuss because
there are a lot of the BoD on that list.  However i am far more 
unpopular

there than i am on this list so they will probably just ignore it as
trolling or some-such.

If, like me, you want to see LO succeed and believe some of these issue
may indeed be holding LO back or setting up bigger problems for the
future then feel free to take up the discussion there or even better
forwards it to the discuss list.

I think the original op of this thread wanted to avoid getting 
bogged down

in all this and just wanted practical comments on issues arising from
trying to share with the 90% (or thereabouts, depending on 
geography) of
computer users that still use MSO.  Perhaps just a few pointers on 
how to

get better results from sharing.

Regards from
Tom :)




From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS 
Office

Users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 8 August, 2012, 3:26

On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:

From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large

college

with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality.

99.9%
of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the 
.1% that
would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway. 
Plus,

it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want

them.

The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for

the
IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far 
as the

IT

department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the

budget
is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that 
is if

it
is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other 
microsoft

licences.

Office = safe.
LO = risky + more work.

I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
(LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
suite difficult to use.


On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:


Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office

can't

migrate to LO

Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread T Hopkins

On Aug 8, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

 The problem doesn't seem to be so much with management not wanting to change 
 - it seems to be with fear of the IT dept. 

There are very sound reasons that businesses are conservative.  Businesses 
don't like change because change costs money.  You don't argue for change by 
saying something is just as good or not as bad as you think.  You must 
argue that change is BETTER than not changing and will ultimate increase 
productivity, which increases profits.

The difference in cost of the initial license, when considered from the full 
deployment/productivity calculation of an IT manager, is often not the deciding 
factor.  The primary cost of changing software is not the license, but 
installation, configuration, training, and lost productivity during conversion. 
 If you put all of this on a balance sheet for a company that is currently 
using MS Office, the cost of upgrading the existing software is often much 
lower than the cost of changing new software, even when that new standard has a 
free license.  

Cheers,
 tod

Tod Hopkins
Hillmann  Carr Inc.
todhopkins-at-hillmanncarr.com






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-08 Thread Anthony Easthope

When at home it is a case of using LO but when at work and school it is
a matter of using Mo as that is what everybody else uses.

I prefer to use LO for the simplicity that it has attached with it. I
remember being taught as a 5 year old to use MO 2003 and becoming quite
proficient in its use. Now as a High School Student I was forced to
crack MO for the first few years as I had no Knowledge of LO. Now since
I have made the switch I have not looked back as NZ now has severe
copyright laws in which I was breaching.

Long live Open Source!

Anthony

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, at 11:26 PM, T Hopkins wrote:
 On Aug 8, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
 
  The problem doesn't seem to be so much with management not wanting to 
  change - it seems to be with fear of the IT dept. 
 
 There are very sound reasons that businesses are conservative. 
 Businesses don't like change because change costs money.  You don't argue
 for change by saying something is just as good or not as bad as you
 think.  You must argue that change is BETTER than not changing and will
 ultimate increase productivity, which increases profits.
 
 The difference in cost of the initial license, when considered from the
 full deployment/productivity calculation of an IT manager, is often not
 the deciding factor.  The primary cost of changing software is not the
 license, but installation, configuration, training, and lost productivity
 during conversion.  If you put all of this on a balance sheet for a
 company that is currently using MS Office, the cost of upgrading the
 existing software is often much lower than the cost of changing new
 software, even when that new standard has a free license.  
 
 Cheers,
  tod
 
 Tod Hopkins
 Hillmann  Carr Inc.
 todhopkins-at-hillmanncarr.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   Tod, you're correct;
   although the businesses fail to consider the cost of
safeguarding their machines;
  a cost which would be considerably reduced by not using the
MSFT products.



On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:26 PM, T Hopkins hopl...@hillmanncarr.com wrote:

On Aug 8, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

  The problem doesn't seem to be so much with management not wanting to
 change - it seems to be with fear of the IT dept.

 There are very sound reasons that businesses are conservative.  Businesses
 don't like change because change costs money.  You don't argue for change
 by saying something is just as good or not as bad as you think.  You
 must argue that change is BETTER than not changing and will ultimate
 increase productivity, which increases profits.

 The difference in cost of the initial license, when considered from the
 full deployment/productivity calculation of an IT manager, is often not the
 deciding factor.  The primary cost of changing software is not the license,
 but installation, configuration, training, and lost productivity during
 conversion.  If you put all of this on a balance sheet for a company that
 is currently using MS Office, the cost of upgrading the existing software
 is often much lower than the cost of changing new software, even when that
 new standard has a free license.

 Cheers,
  tod

 Tod Hopkins
 Hillmann  Carr Inc.
 todhopkins-at-hillmanncarr.com



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-07 Thread Steve Morris



On 06/08/12 02:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

On 08/05/2012 11:24 AM, David B Teague sr wrote:

On 7/24/2012 10:38 AM, Chuck Davis wrote:

To answer your question:  Yes, I send *.odf files to others in a
business setting.  When they tell me they can't open the file I
instruct them to upgrade their office suite to a more modern version
(i.e. buy new licenses) or, alternatively, obtain a (free) copy of
OOo.  I told our accounting firm if they wanted to do our work they
would upgrade to read *.odf files -- and they did.  Cost them some
money for new licenses but they upgraded their MS licenses to read my
files.
Congratulations! I do so wish everyone with such problems would and 
could handle it the way you have.

Thanks!
David Teague

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but 
in practice there is.




Why did they need to upgrade their MS licenses to read ODF files? IT 
reads that they had old version of MSO, but it would have been nice 
for them to use the FREE alternative instead.  Besides, was there not 
threads about issues with MSO's version of reading and writing ODF 
formats?  I never heard any news that the newest versions of MSO 
worked well with ODF.


Still, any way that gets businesses to use the ISO standard file 
formats [ODF not MSO XML] is a good thing.  Then the next step is for 
those businesses to try and use LO instead of paying for newer version 
of MSO.  MSO 2013 [or Office 15] is still having problems, but so is 
Win8 which is due out in 2 months.  So why bother.  Just use LO and 
not worry about MS's problems with lost revenue and their ways to get 
more money out of less work.


Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office 
can't migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 
2002, let alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from 
day to day and is critical to the organisation in order for their 
various business units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does 
not provide, even in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc 
disallows (as far as I can see for no good reason). Another reason for 
not migrating is also the steep learning curve, both with front end 
functionality and macros, that business cannot afford to undertake due 
to the loss of time and resources.


regards,
Steve



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-07 Thread rob wood

From my experience of working in the IT department of a very large college
with over 10 000 computers, it has nothing to do with functionality. 99.9%
of employees use office to type letters and send emails. For the .1% that
would use advanced features, policy probably disallows them anyway. Plus,
it is fairly trivial to have different images for those that need/want them.

The reason they don't migrate is because it would create more work for the
IT department, it is that simple. Plus there is no benefit as far as the IT
department is concerned. Office 2003 works, and whoever approves the budget
is just going to accept however much is put in there for it, that is if it
is actually a separate item and not bundled in with the other microsoft
licences.

Office = safe.
LO = risky + more work.

On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:

Just my 2 cents worth. Businesses with a heavy investment in office can't
migrate to LO, as LO is not a functional replacement for office 2002, let
alone 2010. A lot of business functionality that is used from day to day
and is critical to the organisation in order for their various business
units to operate, from say excel, that libreoffice does not provide, even
in 3.6, and features that excel allows that Calc disallows (as far as I can
see for no good reason). Another reason for not migrating is also the steep
learning curve, both with front end functionality and macros, that business
cannot afford to undertake due to the loss of time and resources.

regards,
Steve

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-07 Thread Jay Lozier

On 08/07/2012 08:24 PM, rob wood wrote:

Office = safe.
LO = risky + more work.
I would second that most users do not use advanced features of any the
MSO parts. Very few can actually program/write a macro and macro
execution should normally be turned off for security reasons.

The reasons for not updating MSO version or using another office suite
(LO, AOO, etc) are roll out costs, roll out time, inertia (no real
business reason to change), and perceptions about users finding the new
suite difficult to use.

On 8 August 2012 00:11, Steve Morris samor...@netspace.net.au wrote:

regards,
Steve

--
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jsloz...@gmail.com

Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-05 Thread David B Teague sr


On 7/24/2012 10:38 AM, Chuck Davis wrote:

To answer your question:  Yes, I send *.odf files to others in a
business setting.  When they tell me they can't open the file I
instruct them to upgrade their office suite to a more modern version
(i.e. buy new licenses) or, alternatively, obtain a (free) copy of
OOo.  I told our accounting firm if they wanted to do our work they
would upgrade to read *.odf files -- and they did.  Cost them some
money for new licenses but they upgraded their MS licenses to read my
files.
Congratulations! I do so wish everyone with such problems would and 
could handle it the way you have.

Thanks!
David Teague

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in 
practice there is.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-08-05 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P


On 08/05/2012 11:24 AM, David B Teague sr wrote:

On 7/24/2012 10:38 AM, Chuck Davis wrote:

To answer your question:  Yes, I send *.odf files to others in a
business setting.  When they tell me they can't open the file I
instruct them to upgrade their office suite to a more modern version
(i.e. buy new licenses) or, alternatively, obtain a (free) copy of
OOo.  I told our accounting firm if they wanted to do our work they
would upgrade to read *.odf files -- and they did.  Cost them some
money for new licenses but they upgraded their MS licenses to read my
files.
Congratulations! I do so wish everyone with such problems would and 
could handle it the way you have.

Thanks!
David Teague

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but 
in practice there is.




Why did they need to upgrade their MS licenses to read ODF files? IT 
reads that they had old version of MSO, but it would have been nice for 
them to use the FREE alternative instead.  Besides, was there not 
threads about issues with MSO's version of reading and writing ODF 
formats?  I never heard any news that the newest versions of MSO worked 
well with ODF.


Still, any way that gets businesses to use the ISO standard file formats 
[ODF not MSO XML] is a good thing.  Then the next step is for those 
businesses to try and use LO instead of paying for newer version of 
MSO.  MSO 2013 [or Office 15] is still having problems, but so is Win8 
which is due out in 2 months.  So why bother.  Just use LO and not worry 
about MS's problems with lost revenue and their ways to get more money 
out of less work.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   Since most people don't use OO/LO, I've converted documents as well
as PPs to MSFT's Office -
   while with OO, many times, there was garbage in the documents
and missing bits in the PPs;
   I have not noticed this since changing to LO.

   One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade to the .5 version; still using
MSFT Open Office '03



On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Don Parris parri...@gmail.com wrote:

I would like to take something of a straw poll, if that's ok.  I simply
 want to know whether any of you have shared documents using the ODF format
 with MS Office users (preferably in a business environment), and what was
 the reaction?  What problems

 I am not seeking advice on how to share documents with MS Office users.
 Nor am I interested in an in-depth analysis of why one might experience
 problems in sharing such documents.  I simply want to know your experience.

 I have been sharing a simple spreadsheet document between LO (at home) and
 MSO (at work) in the OD format.  The experience has been interesting on the
 MS Office side of it.  I get error messages (that don't seem to be real
 errors), and if I choose the repair option, it claims to fix the errors,
 and even gives me a link to click to see the list of alleged corrections.
 The list is just a near-empty XML document.  And to save a document in ODF
 raises a warning *every single time*, with no opportunity to say stop
 warning me.

 I know most of us still have to deal with both suites.  I just wonder if
 anyone else (how many???) has experienced similar issues.

 Thanks,
 Don
 --
 D.C. Parris, FMP, Linux+, ESL Certificate
 Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate
 http://dcparris.net/
 https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris
 GPG Key ID: F5E179BE


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   I agree with what you're saying; and would like to add what must be
happening in the schools here in the U.S. -
for some reason kids are coming out of school thinking that
MSFT is the only reliable system;  believing that only MSFT will protect
their machines from hackers.  As well, companies use only MSFT products on
their machines.



On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Anthony Easthope antiso...@myopera.comwrote:

I have a comment on the error dialogue.
 I once got into a heated debate with my ICT teacher earlier on this year
 and in the debate the comment was made by her that: Microsoft with that
 error dialogue are really just trying to insinuate that their products
 are superior to others

 I in a way kind of agree with her because Microsoft have always insisted
 that the MO range of extensions should be the industry standard. Due to
 this sort of approach I find roadblocks when trying to submit work in
 .ODT format to institutions such as NZQA (New Zealand Qualifications
 Association). they keep getting angry at me for using a so called UN
 recognized file format. I have now managed to persuade my school and
 some other institutions that for a truly open submission and form of
 collaboration that the use of ODF standards should be encouraged. the
 major problem with persuasion is that people are not willing to make the
 change is due to the lack of knowledge of understanding of opensource
 and how it can really become better than commercial counterparts.

 With education there can be a global revolution in the sense that open
 source programs such as LO will become commonplace and the illegal act
 of actions such as piracy (search on youtube crack microsoft offfice
 2010 to see what I mean!) will almost cease,

 Regards
 Anthony Easthope


 On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, at 09:03 PM, Don Parris wrote:
  I would like to take something of a straw poll, if that's ok.  I simply
  want to know whether any of you have shared documents using the ODF
  format
  with MS Office users (preferably in a business environment), and what was
  the reaction?  What problems
 
  I am not seeking advice on how to share documents with MS Office users.
   Nor am I interested in an in-depth analysis of why one might experience
  problems in sharing such documents.  I simply want to know your
  experience.
 
  I have been sharing a simple spreadsheet document between LO (at home)
  and
  MSO (at work) in the OD format.  The experience has been interesting on
  the
  MS Office side of it.  I get error messages (that don't seem to be real
  errors), and if I choose the repair option, it claims to fix the
  errors,
  and even gives me a link to click to see the list of alleged corrections.
   The list is just a near-empty XML document.  And to save a document in
   ODF
  raises a warning *every single time*, with no opportunity to say stop
  warning me.
 
  I know most of us still have to deal with both suites.  I just wonder if
  anyone else (how many???) has experienced similar issues.
 
  Thanks,
  Don
  --
  D.C. Parris, FMP, Linux+, ESL Certificate
  Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate
  http://dcparris.net/
  https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris
  GPG Key ID: F5E179BE
 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-07-25 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 25/07/12 15:39, anne-ology wrote:

Since most people don't use OO/LO,
Many people DO use OO/LO - and it's increasing. Particularly with the 
complexity of each new version of MS Office





  still using
MSFT Open Office '03



Is that a typo or did you deliberately write that? (There IS no MSFT 
*Open* *Office* '03)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-07-25 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Ahh fantastic!  It's good to see people starting to make the mistake that way 
around.  I catch myself refering to LibreOffice as Office and that klunky 
bloated other one as MS Office.  AOO rarely crops up, except as that older 
version of Office ;))
Regards from
Tom :)  



--- On Wed, 25/7/12, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office 
Users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 25 July, 2012, 16:01

On 25/07/12 15:39, anne-ology wrote:
         Since most people don't use OO/LO,
Many people DO use OO/LO - and it's increasing. Particularly with the 
complexity of each new version of MS Office



   still using
 MSFT Open Office '03
 

Is that a typo or did you deliberately write that? (There IS no MSFT *Open* 
*Office* '03)

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-07-25 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
It is possible to install another version of LO alongside the main one so that 
you can test-drive the newer one without committing to it.  It's not easy so 
there is a wiki-page to help.  The main thing is to avoid using the 
QuickStarter in either of them as you cant really have things open in both at 
the same time.  QuickStarter uis like having one open all the time (in a fairly 
minimal way but just enough to confuse them)
Regards from
Tom :)  



--- On Wed, 25/7/12, anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com wrote:

From: anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office 
Users?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 25 July, 2012, 15:39

       Since most people don't use OO/LO, I've converted documents as well
as PPs to MSFT's Office -
           while with OO, many times, there was garbage in the documents
and missing bits in the PPs;
           I have not noticed this since changing to LO.

       One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade to the .5 version; still using
MSFT Open Office '03



On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Don Parris parri...@gmail.com wrote:

I would like to take something of a straw poll, if that's ok.  I simply
 want to know whether any of you have shared documents using the ODF format
 with MS Office users (preferably in a business environment), and what was
 the reaction?  What problems

 I am not seeking advice on how to share documents with MS Office users.
 Nor am I interested in an in-depth analysis of why one might experience
 problems in sharing such documents.  I simply want to know your experience.

 I have been sharing a simple spreadsheet document between LO (at home) and
 MSO (at work) in the OD format.  The experience has been interesting on the
 MS Office side of it.  I get error messages (that don't seem to be real
 errors), and if I choose the repair option, it claims to fix the errors,
 and even gives me a link to click to see the list of alleged corrections.
 The list is just a near-empty XML document.  And to save a document in ODF
 raises a warning *every single time*, with no opportunity to say stop
 warning me.

 I know most of us still have to deal with both suites.  I just wonder if
 anyone else (how many???) has experienced similar issues.

 Thanks,
 Don
 --
 D.C. Parris, FMP, Linux+, ESL Certificate
 Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate
 http://dcparris.net/
 https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris
 GPG Key ID: F5E179BE


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   yes, many do, but most do not;
   and I do have MSFT [the proper abbreviation for the company]
Office '03 [that's 2003].



On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
gbpli...@gmail.comwrote:

On 25/07/12 15:39, anne-ology wrote:

 Since most people don't use OO/LO,

 Many people DO use OO/LO - and it's increasing. Particularly with the
 complexity of each new version of MS Office



still using
 MSFT Office '03


 Is that a typo or did you deliberately write that? (There IS no MSFT
 *Open* *Office* '03)



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

   ok, got that;

   but when and if I decide to upgrade, I'll be keeping the older
version in the download file so I can delete all then re-open the older
version  ;-)

   Still a follower of the KeepItSimpleS method  ;-)



On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:

Hi :)
 It is possible to install another version of LO alongside the main one so
 that you can test-drive the newer one without committing to it.  It's not
 easy so there is a wiki-page to help.  The main thing is to avoid using the
 QuickStarter in either of them as you cant really have things open in both
 at the same time.  QuickStarter uis like having one open all the time (in a
 fairly minimal way but just enough to confuse them)
 Regards from
 Tom :)



 From: anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office
 Users?
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Wednesday, 25 July, 2012, 15:39

Since most people don't use OO/LO, I've converted documents as well
 as PPs to MSFT's Office -
while with OO, many times, there was garbage in the documents
 and missing bits in the PPs;
I have not noticed this since changing to LO.

One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade to the .5 version; still using
 MSFT Open Office '03



 On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Don Parris parri...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to take something of a straw poll, if that's ok.  I simply
  want to know whether any of you have shared documents using the ODF
 format
  with MS Office users (preferably in a business environment), and what was
  the reaction?  What problems
 
  I am not seeking advice on how to share documents with MS Office users.
  Nor am I interested in an in-depth analysis of why one might experience
  problems in sharing such documents.  I simply want to know your
 experience.
 
  I have been sharing a simple spreadsheet document between LO (at home)
 and
  MSO (at work) in the OD format.  The experience has been interesting on
 the
  MS Office side of it.  I get error messages (that don't seem to be real
  errors), and if I choose the repair option, it claims to fix the
 errors,
  and even gives me a link to click to see the list of alleged corrections.
  The list is just a near-empty XML document.  And to save a document in
 ODF
  raises a warning *every single time*, with no opportunity to say stop
  warning me.
 
  I know most of us still have to deal with both suites.  I just wonder if
  anyone else (how many???) has experienced similar issues.
 
  Thanks,
  Don
  --
  D.C. Parris, FMP, Linux+, ESL Certificate
  Minister, Security/FM Coordinator, Free Software Advocate
  http://dcparris.net/
  https://www.xing.com/profile/Don_Parris
  http://www.linkedin.com/in/dcparris
  GPG Key ID: F5E179BE
 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?

2012-07-25 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 25/07/12 20:04, anne-ology wrote:

yes, many do, but most do not;
and I do have MSFT [the proper abbreviation for the company]
Office '03 [that's 2003].




I have MS Office 2000, 2003, 2007 and 2010 - but none of those are OPEN 
Officeas you posted...

And BTW MSFT is the stock name, not the trading name

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Do You Share ODF Documents With MS Office Users?