Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-12 Thread Marcello Romani 

Il 09/09/2011 18:27, NoOp ha scritto:

On 09/09/2011 02:38 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 09/09/2011 10:28, krisb ha scritto:

Hi all,

This is my first message here so please be tolerant :)
Maybe it is a not right place to ask, but let me start. I'm wondering if is
possible to open encrypted xlsx/docx files in Libo? IMHO MSO rights and
concept of protecting files exclude possibility of opening it in competitors
software, since it would be a breaking of encryption algorithm and it would
be against MSO rights. Am I right? The encryption methods are part which I
am not well acquainted yet :)


Let's forget for a moment MS's anti-competitor practices. Encryption
doesn't rely on the algorithm being secret, but on the /encryption key/
being secret and strong enough to be practically impossible (or
extremely costly) to guess with brute force.

The fact that MS tries to keep algorithms or implementation details
hidden to hinder competition is a more general problem which has nothing
to do with encryption.

...
Really? I see nothing hidden here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx





Thank you for the pointer.

I was just trying to emphasize the fact that encryption algorithm 
secrecy has nothing to do with its strength, encryption-wise.

Indeed I should've written something like:
"The fact that someone *might* try to..."


--
Marcello Romani

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-10 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton 
I think there is a misunderstanding.  The material at the Microsoft site does 
not include copies of the patents, not even the identifiers for patents.  
Reading the specification of a format is going to tell you nothing about how 
implementing something according to those specifications might infringe a 
patent held by anyone, not just Microsoft.

And so long as the specification is under the Open Specification Promise, there 
is no problem with Microsoft patents, if there are any, so long as the OSP 
conditions are honored.

Now, you might be so wary that this is not enough.  Then there is ODF to deal 
with also.

Sun provided a reassurance about ODF that is comparable (not literally the 
same) to the Open Specification Promise for the free-to-the-public 
specifications for the Microsoft binary formats and some of the common 
functions shared among them, such as [MS-OFFCRYPTO].

Microsoft personnel participated in preparation of ODF 1.2 and OpenFormula, 
where there is a lot of attention to providing functions and formulas that 
correspond to ones in Excel.  It seems that one cannot avoid coming to grips 
with this.  

Microsoft has promised to treat Standards at OASIS and ISO/IEC for ODF 1.2 
under the Open Specification Promise too.  Approval of an OASIS Standard for 
ODF 1.2 should happen in the next month or two.  ISO/IEC acceptance of ODF 1.2 
will likely be resolved by next Summer, it seems to me.  That seems like a good 
thing, yes?

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Nuno J. Silva [mailto:nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt] 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 02:36
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

On 2011-09-10, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com]  wrote:
>> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 21:51 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote: 
>>> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 09:27 -0700, NoOp wrote:
>>> > Really? I see nothing hidden here:
>>> >
>>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx
>>> >
>>> > <http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/4/8/24862317-78F0-4C4B-B355-C7B2C1D997DB/%5BMS-OFFCRYPTO%5D.pdf>
>>> 
>>> I think the interesting bit is the following:
>>> 
>>> "Microsoft has patents that may cover your implementations of the
>>> technologies described in the Open Specifications. Neither this notice
>>> nor Microsoft's delivery of the documentation grants any licenses under
>>> those or any other Microsoft patents. However, a given Open
>>> Specification may be covered ..."
>>> 
>>> The emphasis, I feel, is on the word "may".
[...]
> I noticed that Haworth left of the part after the "may be covered
> ... "?
>
> Is it not good to first check to see if the specification is indeed
> covered or not?

>From what I recall from some USENET talks about this, it's actually
better *not* to check, as if you knowingly violate a patent, fines and
the rest are heavier than if you didn't know there was a patent.

> So until the US Congress decides to abandon the power to legislate
> patents and copyrights stipulated in the US Constitution, this is
> pretty much as good as it gets short of MSFT not having obtained any
> patents in the first place (whether or not any apply to items under
> the Open Specification Promise).

We don't need the US Congress (and some other legislative branches over
the world) to stop legislating patents, we just need them to stop
screwing the definition of patent. Algorithm patenteability is a
Pandora's box that should have never been opened.

(Copyright has nothing to do with this, unless you plan to copy
Microsoft's code in some way.)

IANAL

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-10 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-10, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com]  wrote:
>> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 21:51 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote: 
>>> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 09:27 -0700, NoOp wrote:
>>> > Really? I see nothing hidden here:
>>> >
>>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx
>>> >
>>> > 
>>> 
>>> I think the interesting bit is the following:
>>> 
>>> "Microsoft has patents that may cover your implementations of the
>>> technologies described in the Open Specifications. Neither this notice
>>> nor Microsoft's delivery of the documentation grants any licenses under
>>> those or any other Microsoft patents. However, a given Open
>>> Specification may be covered ..."
>>> 
>>> The emphasis, I feel, is on the word "may".
[...]
> I noticed that Haworth left of the part after the "may be covered
> ... "?
>
> Is it not good to first check to see if the specification is indeed
> covered or not?

>From what I recall from some USENET talks about this, it's actually
better *not* to check, as if you knowingly violate a patent, fines and
the rest are heavier than if you didn't know there was a patent.

> So until the US Congress decides to abandon the power to legislate
> patents and copyrights stipulated in the US Constitution, this is
> pretty much as good as it gets short of MSFT not having obtained any
> patents in the first place (whether or not any apply to items under
> the Open Specification Promise).

We don't need the US Congress (and some other legislative branches over
the world) to stop legislating patents, we just need them to stop
screwing the definition of patent. Algorithm patenteability is a
Pandora's box that should have never been opened.

(Copyright has nothing to do with this, unless you plan to copy
Microsoft's code in some way.)

IANAL

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-09 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton 
I noticed that Haworth left of the part after the "may be covered ... "?

Is it not good to first check to see if the specification is indeed covered or 
not?

Here is the full text:

"However, a given Open Specification may be covered by Microsoft's Open 
Specification Promise (available here: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp) or 
the Community Promise (available here: 
http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx). If you would prefer a 
written license, or if the technologies described in the Open Specifications 
are not covered by the Open Specifications Promise or Community Promise, as 
applicable, patent licenses are available by contacting i...@microsoft.com."

If you go to 
<http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx>
 which lists "Other Office File Formats" under the Open Specification Promise, 
you will see that indeed, "[MS-OFFCRYPTO]: Office Document Cryptography 
Structure Specification" is covered by the Microsoft Open Specification 
Promise. 

If you go to 
<http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/community-promise/default.aspx>
 you will find that MS-OFFCRYPTO is not listed as a Covered Specification under 
the Microsoft Community Promise.

So what is available is the irrevocable promise under the Open Specification 
Promise at 
<http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/default.aspx>.

That's the same promise that applies to [MS-DOC], [MS-XLS], [MS-PPT], 
[MS-DOCX], [MS-PPTX], [MS-PST](Outlook!), [MS-XLSX], [RTF] and more.

So until the US Congress decides to abandon the power to legislate patents and 
copyrights stipulated in the US Constitution, this is pretty much as good as it 
gets short of MSFT not having obtained any patents in the first place (whether 
or not any apply to items under the Open Specification Promise).

 - Dennis


-Original Message-
From: planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 22:03
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 21:51 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote: 

> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 09:27 -0700, NoOp wrote:
> > Really? I see nothing hidden here:
> > 
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx
> > <http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/4/8/24862317-78F0-4C4B-B355-C7B2C1D997DB/%5BMS-OFFCRYPTO%5D.pdf>
> 
> I think the interesting bit is the following:
> 
> "Microsoft has patents that may cover your implementations of the
> technologies described in the Open Specifications. Neither this notice
> nor Microsoft's delivery of the documentation grants any licenses under
> those or any other Microsoft patents. However, a given Open
> Specification may be covered ..."
> 
> The emphasis, I feel, is on the word "may".
> 
[ ... ]


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-09 Thread planas 
On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 21:51 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote: 

> On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 09:27 -0700, NoOp wrote:
> > Really? I see nothing hidden here:
> > 
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx
> > 
> 
> I think the interesting bit is the following:
> 
> "Microsoft has patents that may cover your implementations of the
> technologies described in the Open Specifications. Neither this notice
> nor Microsoft's delivery of the documentation grants any licenses under
> those or any other Microsoft patents. However, a given Open
> Specification may be covered ..."
> 
> The emphasis, I feel, is on the word "may".
> 
> The US notion of software patents is an abhorrence that pollutes and
> cripples software development everywhere in the world. So even more than
> ensuring that the FSM takes His Rightful Place (TM), it should be the
> overriding goal of every domestic citizen to repeal such legislation.

Agreed, whoever cooked up the stupidity should be tortured with the
nasty tortures available


> 
> Cheers, Dave
> (a non-domestic infidel)
> 
> 



-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-09 Thread Dave Howorth 
On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 09:27 -0700, NoOp wrote:
> Really? I see nothing hidden here:
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313071%28v=office.12%29.aspx
> 

I think the interesting bit is the following:

"Microsoft has patents that may cover your implementations of the
technologies described in the Open Specifications. Neither this notice
nor Microsoft's delivery of the documentation grants any licenses under
those or any other Microsoft patents. However, a given Open
Specification may be covered ..."

The emphasis, I feel, is on the word "may".

The US notion of software patents is an abhorrence that pollutes and
cripples software development everywhere in the world. So even more than
ensuring that the FSM takes His Rightful Place (TM), it should be the
overriding goal of every domestic citizen to repeal such legislation.

Cheers, Dave
(a non-domestic infidel)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Encrypted MSO files (docx,xlsx) in Libo

2011-09-09 Thread Nuno J. Silva 
On 2011-09-09, krisb wrote:

> @Tom: 
> By encrypted file, I mean file secured by build in function in Excel/Word
> 2007 . I know about encryption from message when i try convert to xls the
> test file mentioned in linked thread. I get information that "This document
> is both encrypted and password protected. The Office Open XML Formats
> available in the 2007 release provide stronger encryption ...".

It's still a weird way to describe it. Encryption itself has a
key/password. So this means the document has *two* passwords? One for
non-encrypted password "protection" (it's as much real protection as
ROT26), and other for the encryption?

Or it's just Microsoft that are doing a bad job at describing what's
going on?

> Nuno J. Silva wrote:
>> 
>> Microsoft nowadays *claims* to be using open formats, so I'd expect the
>> encryption algorithm to be documented somewhere, and even if it isn't,
>> until some time ago it was pretty clear that math wasn't patenteable.
>> 
>
> This sound good, but can we be sure about MS ? :>

We can't. The only way to get rid of the issue is to step away from MS,
but if you could do that you wouldn't be trying to get working OOXML
encryption...

> Nuno J. Silva wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder if this is related to your issue. Or wait, are you the
>> reporter?
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35422
>> 
>
> Yep, I reported it some time ago. Now I know that it should be in a
> different order :)

So it also affects docx? I'd suggest updating the bug report summary to
reflect that :-)

If you can make an example document, attach it to the report. I guess
the only way to create one is using Microsoft Office itself?

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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