Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Steve Edmonds]

I used to have this problem frequently in LO 3 or 4 or 2.4 (a while 
ago). My documents are typically 10 - 50 pages, many illustrations/images.
All types of wrapping, images next to images, images next to tables. 
Images with draw objects (lines and arrows) to tables.
My documents have not changed but I must be working differently, 
anticipating the problem, as this rarely happens now.


I put most of the problems down to the way LO handles anchoring. Way 
back when I was using Smartsuite on OS/2 images, etc. had anchors that 
you could move.
In LO the anchoring is random (technically probably not random), you 
cannot anchor an image to a paragraph or a character. You can anchor to 
paragraph or to character but LO decides which one and where and this 
can be really random. You can move the anchor, but it doesn't stay where 
you put it. Sometimes this anchor goes all over the place, try placing 
an image next to a table and watch the anchor move into the table and 
out again as you adjust position.


My supposition is that LO gets lost in its attempt to find new anchor 
points at times when the document flows, rather than using anchored 
anchor points. I.e. place an image next to a table and anchor to the 
paragraph above the table (description) or below the table (table 
title). Then try and anchor the draw object to the same paragraph that 
positions the image.


In the above example I will anchor to page and have no problems, 
sometimes I have to adjust position manually when the test flows but it 
avoids the issues of the complete reformat when an image rolls over to a 
new page and LO can't decide where to anchor it. Other cases I anchor as 
character or to character.


I am not sure how you could put this in an instruction, be aware of 
issues and adjust your work methods accordingly.


steve

On 2016-09-09 05:32, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:
This whole thing has the feel on none linear functions gone 
out-of-order wrong.


That is to say, there are two or more functions that can apply to 
organize placement of images within a document.


Initially, they start at the same time, within the tolerance of the 
processor/motherboard. The more they function, the more they get out 
of sync until it can't complete in the way we wish, but do complete as 
a process.


Some get less failure and others get more.

What is the order of priority and how does it restart on failure? Does 
one wait before doing another?


Any thoughts?



On 9/8/2016 12:59 PM, Bo Siltberg wrote:
I too have that book on the reading list, it's been there for too 
long now..


As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

Otherwise I guess a document can be as large as it need to be and 
still be

manageable. There is for example a difference in need between a book
written from top to bottom and a large technical specification which is
updated here and there and that contains internal references back and
forth. It was quite some time since I evaluated the master document
function, maybe it has evolved now to handle navigation and references
better than in the past?


2016-09-08 16:51 GMT+02:00 Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster <
webmas...@krackedpress.com>:


On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:


On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:




You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is 
free)
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on 
this

problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
of tables does increase the file size.

Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.
I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do 
more

than a fast look through.

Thanks for your work on this book, as well.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 09/08/2016 01:28 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

On September 8, 2016 06:59:16 PM Bo Siltberg wrote:


As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

The image problems can hit any document, but they do seem to be related
to file size. Or, at least, the larger the file, the more likely the
problems are.

However, it is all very unclear, which is the main reason it is not
officially recognized as a bug (or, perhaps, a series of bugs).

Sometimes I have issues with graphics/photos within the text that are 
high resolution - i.e. 600 to 1200 dpi.  I have a laser printer that 
prints out at 1200 dpi so I tend to make sure that I have the 
graphics/photos are at that resolution and for the physical size on the 
printed paper - 4x6 inches at the maximum resolution for the printer 
that I will use to print a physical copy.  Exporting to PDF files are 
set for maximum of 600 dpi.  The same with my inkjet printers.


SO, that might be part of the file size issue.  Also I either set wrap 
for no-wrap or to wrap on the right of the image.



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RE: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[toki]

Kracked Press wrote:

>I see the postings about the complexity of the documents, but I have not
seen any info about the size of the documents that are part of the
"writing large" statement.

Document length does not correlate with document complexity.

> But how many pages in the document would be considered as the low end for 
> "large
document"?

That depends upon the type of document.

When I did a cut and paste, the tables collapsed.

Words per document.

The first line is, with three exceptions, the number of words in the
document. The three exceptions are words per page.
Words are calculating using standard printing metrics.
The second line is the type of document.

0-100
FictionFactor Micro-fiction
0-7,500
SF Short Story
100-1,000
FictionFactor Flash fiction
250
Words per page for fiction
400
Words per page for academia
832
Words per page, single spaced
1,000
F100 Short Article
1,000-1,500
Length of a ten minute sermon
1,000-2,500
F1000 Medium Article
1,000-7,500
FictionFactor Short story
2,500 – 8,000
F1000 Long Article
4,000-7,000
Kindle candy
8,000-15,000
F1000 Maximum Length Article
17,500-40,000
SF Novella
20,000-30,000
Middle Grade Essay
20,000-50,000
FictionFactor Novella
40,000-50,000
Upper Middle Grade Essay
40,000-60,000
SF Novel from 1960s
40,000-80,000
SF Novel from 1970s
45,000-50,000
How To books
50,000
Comprehensive Report
50,000-110,000
FictionFactor Novel
55,000-90,000
Young Adult Fiction
60,000-70,000
Length of a mystery
64,531
Amazon: median length of all books
7,500-17,500
SF Novelette
7,500-20,000
FictionFactor Novelette
70,000-115,000
Adult Fiction
8
Young Adult SF Novel 2010
90,000-120,000
SF Novel 2015
100,000
PhD Dissertation
100,000
Number of good words that writer writes per year
100,000-115,000
Science Fiction Novel 2010
110,000–10,000,000
Epic Fiction
200,000
Biography
240,000
Short Mega-novel
300,000
Number of words a writer writes per year
100
Average length mega-novel

As such, if you treat software documentation as a "How-To" manual, the
target is roughly 50,000 words.

The caveat is how the target audience is, and why the documentation is
being written.

> that included graphics/photos and other options that makes the document 
> complex one,

Graphics, tables, charts, and illustrations make for complex documents.

>SO, is there any consensus on where is the line drawn for this document
is a large one and this other is not?

Pages per Document

The first line is the number of pages in the document.
The second line is the type of document.
The third line is where that document is used/found.(Document Aim)

1
Cover Letter
Article submission, job application, etc
1
Press Release
Brief information for a broad audience
1
Editorial Preface
Short summary of an issue
1
General Article
Education of the wider public
2
Curriculum Vitae
Career summary
3
IGAS Short
Double spaced short Report
5
Patent
Protection of technical innovation
10
Research Article
Presentation of primary, original results
10
IGAS Standard
Double spaced report
10
Number of pages of a short story
Short Story
15
Training report
Education
15
HAWU Report
Double spaced report
20
Review Article
Review of Knowledge in a domain
20
Expert Report
Analysis of Knowledge
25
IGAS Long Report
Double Spaced report
30
Industrial Report
Research & Development
100
Book
Education
200
Thesis
Research

> Does anyone know any "official"reference about this?

For those two tables, I didn't write down my sources. I started
collecting the information, purely for my own use and benefit.
In theory, I could locate the sources, using either _Google Search_ or
_Google Scholar_.

> that was required to use by writers to be taken as a "professional" in 
> whatever field of study. 

Virtually every field of study has its own style manual. _The Chicago
Manual of Style_ is the usual fallback, for style manuals
developed in, or for the United States. Usually, but not always, the
style manual will state which edition is to be followed.
When a specific edition is not provided, editors get into big fights.

>not know what the new standards are or what is considered a large document and 
>not a "normal sized" one.

The working assumption of current technical documentation manuals, is
that the content will be presented online.
As such, page length is ignored.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

This whole thing has the feel on none linear functions gone out-of-order 
wrong.


That is to say, there are two or more functions that can apply to 
organize placement of images within a document.


Initially, they start at the same time, within the tolerance of the 
processor/motherboard. The more they function, the more they get out of 
sync until it can't complete in the way we wish, but do complete as a 
process.


Some get less failure and others get more.

What is the order of priority and how does it restart on failure? Does 
one wait before doing another?


Any thoughts?



On 9/8/2016 12:59 PM, Bo Siltberg wrote:

I too have that book on the reading list, it's been there for too long now..

As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

Otherwise I guess a document can be as large as it need to be and still be
manageable. There is for example a difference in need between a book
written from top to bottom and a large technical specification which is
updated here and there and that contains internal references back and
forth. It was quite some time since I evaluated the master document
function, maybe it has evolved now to handle navigation and references
better than in the past?


2016-09-08 16:51 GMT+02:00 Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster <
webmas...@krackedpress.com>:


On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:


On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:





You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
of tables does increase the file size.

Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.

I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more
than a fast look through.

Thanks for your work on this book, as well.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Bruce Byfield]

On September 8, 2016 06:59:16 PM Bo Siltberg wrote:

>As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
>(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
>error in a one-page document.

The image problems can hit any document, but they do seem to be related 
to file size. Or, at least, the larger the file, the more likely the 
problems are.

However, it is all very unclear, which is the main reason it is not 
officially recognized as a bug (or, perhaps, a series of bugs).

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604.421.7189 (Pacific time)
Writer of "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Bo Siltberg]

I too have that book on the reading list, it's been there for too long now..

As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

Otherwise I guess a document can be as large as it need to be and still be
manageable. There is for example a difference in need between a book
written from top to bottom and a large technical specification which is
updated here and there and that contains internal references back and
forth. It was quite some time since I evaluated the master document
function, maybe it has evolved now to handle navigation and references
better than in the past?


2016-09-08 16:51 GMT+02:00 Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster <
webmas...@krackedpress.com>:

>
> On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>
>> On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:
>>
> 
>
>> You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
>> and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
>> problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
>> completely satisfactory:
>>
>> http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/
>>
>> On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
>> of tables does increase the file size.
>>
>> Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.
>
> I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more
> than a fast look through.
>
> Thanks for your work on this book, as well.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:



You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
of tables does increase the file size.


Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.

I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more 
than a fast look through.


Thanks for your work on this book, as well.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Philip Jackson]

On 07/09/16 22:16, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
> For those of us who work with 30 or 40 pages in a document file, plus
> maybe some complex formatting options used, we may consider 40 pages as
> a large document, while others may consider documents need 100 or more
> pages to be a considered large one.
> 
> SO, is there any consensus on where is the line drawn for this document
> is a large one and this other is not?  Does anyone know any "official"
> reference about this?

FWIW on the 'large document' topic. I recently wrote a 'large' (ish ?)
document using LO Writer :

109 pages (US Letter size pages)
70 illustrations (.png format black and white)
21k words

The images were all linked rather than embedded because they too evolved
during the writing process and embedding gets the updates included.

Each image was anchored to paragraph (rather than character or page)
with 'NoWrap'.  I didn't 'mess' with the image frame styles except for
the captions.

Text was all formatted using styles I created to suit my needs.

During the writing / formatting process, the only difficulty I had from
time to time was adjusting the sizes of the images. I didn't find the
graphics position and size boxes in the right hand bar to be very reliable.

I kept the whole document as one single file and loading time was never
a problem. Whenever I added or modified an image, I used File > Reload
which was pretty rapid.

I had a TOC and general index in the file, developed with LO Writer tools.

I flattened all the image links prior to exporting to pdf. Overall the
LO Writer process was pretty good.

Philip


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Bruce Byfield]

On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:

>So I found out the hard way what Bruce Byfield wrote two years ago:
>http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s
>-Blog/The-mysteries-of-positioning-pictures-in-LibreOffice-OpenOffice
>
>And I noticed this bug report:
>https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=79234
>
>I find it sad that no action is taken because if you want to write a
>"larger" document with proper layout (with text wrapping), then Writer
>is not suitable.

You can still write long documents, but you have to adjust your design.

One thing that seems to help is to link your graphics rather than embed 
them, which keeps the file size down. 

If you have more concrete information, it couldn't hurt to add to the 
bug. However, the trouble is that only those doing documents with lots 
of images -- a definite minority -- are affected by the bug.

You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free) 
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this 
problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is 
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots 
of tables does increase the file size.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604.421.7189 (Pacific time)
Writer of "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 09/07/2016 07:40 PM, Wiebe van der Worp wrote:

On 07-09-16 22:16, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

I see the postings about the complexity of the documents, but I have not
seen any info about the size of the documents that are part of the
"writing large" statement.

Everyone should agree that the odt version of the "get starting guide"
or "using Writer", etc., would be a large and complex document. But how
many pages in the document would be considered as the low end for "large
document"?


It is probably a bit of a grey zone. The "get started guide" does not 
use wrapping and apparently wrapping is causing errors during 
repagination. That considered, the guide is large but not that complex 
to recalculate. In "small" documents text wrapping around objects 
doesn't cause problems. But as the document grows "large", the blanc 
(parts of) pages creep in, amongst others depending on the amount of 
included objects.



Yes, I have the same opinion about how a document can get as it grows.

I use to have "fun" trying to figure out why my pages would not keep its 
formatting when graphics are involved.  To be honest, editing someone 
else's document with "formatting styles" active is a much a problem when 
you find out the the original author tried to have "styles" within other 
styles, and manual formatting option as well. I tend to remove all 
"style options" he/she created and then replace simpler ones when the 
text editing was finished.


I started dividing larger documents [.odt and .doc] into smaller chunks 
AFTER I read an author's note by one my favorite SciFi/Fantasy author's 
- Piers Anthony.  It was one of his "notes" that lead me to OOo instead 
of MS Word, and the possibility of using a Linux system as my workhorse 
desktop and it could be my default OS.  I use Linux for  99.75% of my 
computer needs.  I rarely use my Windows boot partitions anymore.


Piers Anthony use to write up to 7 books a year, 20 or so years ago that 
is - using Star Office then OpenOffice.org.  Now in his 80's, he writes 
1 to 3 books a year.  I have almost all of his published books - with 
all that I could find that are no longer published and can only find as 
used books.


He wrote with each chapter having its own file.  Kept all of his typed 
notes in other files. He started writing macros to make his writing 
process easier for 20+/- years.  When I found LibreOffice back when the 
first version came out of the its release candidate, I started using it 
and then decided to send an email to Mr. Anthony about using LO instead 
of OOo.  I have had a few emails back from him [written by or dictated 
by him] since I found out that one of his daughters and myself share the 
same "brain condition".  Between the author's notes printed in the 
books, and then posted monthly on his web site, I learned a lot of 
"things" on how he wrote his books using a computer.  That, and a book 
editor who was my wife's college roommate and good friend for more than 
30 years, has helped me understand some of the ways to write and edit 
documents/books/etc.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Wiebe van der Worp]

On 07-09-16 22:16, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

I see the postings about the complexity of the documents, but I have not
seen any info about the size of the documents that are part of the
"writing large" statement.

Everyone should agree that the odt version of the "get starting guide"
or "using Writer", etc., would be a large and complex document.  But how
many pages in the document would be considered as the low end for "large
document"?


It is probably a bit of a grey zone. The "get started guide" does not 
use wrapping and apparently wrapping is causing errors during 
repagination. That considered, the guide is large but not that complex 
to recalculate. In "small" documents text wrapping around objects 
doesn't cause problems. But as the document grows "large", the blanc 
(parts of) pages creep in, amongst others depending on the amount of 
included objects.



On 09/06/2016 08:40 AM, wiebe wrote:



  * New document from default template
  * Change default style (a hate double enters)
  * Insert image, png, via menu, style left and right
  * Insert ASCII text, Lorem etc.
  * Make headings 1 and 2
  * Copy everything (dragging+ctrl) untill there are ~60 pages
  * Make page 1 with page break for title
  * Next page TOC



When I change evaluate levels of the TOC to 1, everything repagenates
fine.
Turning it back to a higher level, and everything becomes chaos. See
attached nabble file.


Tools > Update does not work. Work around: Close and open file. But
many of
my .odm files are not sensitive to this solution.


So I found out the hard way what Bruce Byfield wrote two years ago: 
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-mysteries-of-positioning-pictures-in-LibreOffice-OpenOffice


And I noticed this bug report: 
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=79234


I find it sad that no action is taken because if you want to write a 
"larger" document with proper layout (with text wrapping), then Writer 
is not suitable.


How about filing a bug report again? It is reproducible, affects all 
users, and it is a very old problem in the core of Writer.


As for solutions: today I've converted a sub-document, changing all 
anchors to "as character" and problems were solved, the document is a 
lot more responsive too. Downside: layout is not very nice and due to 
lacking of wrapping text around object, the number of pages becomes 
considerable larger.


In this document most images have blanc spaces on the left and the 
right. The table solution mentioned by Bruce is used, two images on one 
line using left and right aligned tab stops is used and to emulate 
wrapping, an image followed or preceded by a frame is used - and all 
anchored as character. So far it works again.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

This may sound "stupid", but I would like to know. . .

I see the postings about the complexity of the documents, but I have not 
seen any info about the size of the documents that are part of the 
"writing large" statement.


Everyone should agree that the odt version of the "get starting guide" 
or "using Writer", etc., would be a large and complex document.  But how 
many pages in the document would be considered as the low end for "large 
document"?


For the last 5+ years, I rarely write [or work on] any documents over 30 
or 40 pages.  I use to work with documents of 100 to 500 pages.  Most of 
those were broken up by chapter, or a range of chapters, to make the 
document easier to handle.  Sometimes, I did have to edit a single .doc 
file with over 300 pages - that included graphics/photos and other 
options that makes the document complex one, with no "formatting style 
option" available to use within the word processor or none used by the 
original document writer[s].


For those of us who work with 30 or 40 pages in a document file, plus 
maybe some complex formatting options used, we may consider 40 pages as 
a large document, while others may consider documents need 100 or more 
pages to be a considered large one.


SO, is there any consensus on where is the line drawn for this document 
is a large one and this other is not?  Does anyone know any "official" 
reference about this?


I know there are technical writing books that are still in use for 
college classes from "the early days of PCs" and even ones written 
before PCs came out.  Each time I went for a degree in the computer 
field, there was a "new standard" for writing documents [technical or 
otherwise], i.e. changes in proper footnotes formatting, that was 
required to use by writers to be taken as a "professional" in whatever 
field of study.  Before my office space, in a previous apartment, got 
flooded from a overflowing tub above me - I had 7 or 8 books that were  
the "newest standards" for writing "proper documents".  Each newer book 
showed the updated/new standards I had to learn for my new college 
classes for the next degree.


It has been years since I bought a new technical writing book. So, I do 
not know what the new standards are or what is considered a large 
document and not a "normal sized" one.





On 09/06/2016 08:40 AM, wiebe wrote:

On 05-09-16 20:10, Girvin Herr wrote:

What I was occasionally experiencing was
something similar to what you are seeing.  The tables would prematurely
advance to the next page before filling the current page, or continue on
the next page in other than the first section column, and blank pages
would appear which could not be edited (the cursor could not be put in
them), but were printed (negating the purpose of saving trees).

So in general things that are not text, such as TOC's, tables, frames and
pictures, that are anchored not as character can cause trouble when
repaginating.

I think it would help if some work arounds can be found, you have a
solution:


... I found the Tools -> Update -> Page Formatting option and
having nothing to lose, tried it.  I was pleasantly surprised that the
pages were reformatted correctly with no blank pages and the table flow
problems were corrected.

... as an example of such a work around. For me it does not work.


So I tried to create a pure document, trying to create the problems:

  * New document from default template
  * Change default style (a hate double enters)
  * Insert image, png, via menu, style left and right
  * Insert ASCII text, Lorem etc.
  * Make headings 1 and 2
  * Copy everything (dragging+ctrl) untill there are ~60 pages
  * Make page 1 with page break for title
  * Next page TOC

Everything works fine, no problems, but...

When I change evaluate levels of the TOC to 1, everything repagenates fine.
Turning it back to a higher level, and everything becomes chaos. See
attached nabble file.


Tools > Update does not work. Work around: Close and open file. But many of
my .odm files are not sensitive to this solution.





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