Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 12:17 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> I was just there 3 minutes ago Rahul, and there is still as yet, no way to 
> follow that site to a get torrents page, and the site
>   

Patience.  The patch was just submitted sometime back and it takes time
to get it synced,  translations updated etc.   Of course, help is
welcome if anyone is interested. 

Rahul
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 May 2010, g wrote:
>Jud Craft wrote:
>> I'm sorry if I'm late to the party or this has been previously
>
>
>
>
>true to form.
>
>38 complaints about no link to torrents, of which only 1 poster, #26,
>provides a hot link in his post.
>
>
>for me, it is easy to find because i have both
>  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
>and
>  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins
>in my browser bookmarks.
>
>i guess i have a different concept of what bookmarks are for.
>
>
>yes, i agree that writer of page should have included such information,
>as well as op of this thread, but some people do not always think things
>thru as thoroughly as they should.
>
>
>why did i wait until now to post? i wanted to see how long this thread
>would get. :^D
>
>
>so who is 'calling kettle black'?
>
>not me, i just find it interesting how some poster think. myself included.
>
>
>have i pulled iso or upgraded my installation? hell no. i am waiting until
>noise level of problems and new bugs drops.

Which is generally being drowned out by the fussing about the poorly composed 
pages at the get fedora site.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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only if the folly of it escapes you.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 May 2010, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>On 05/27/2010 09:57 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> A...you poor thing.
>
>Ed,  stop being so patronizing.   It doesn't help the conversation.

Oh, sorry.  Heck, I was gonna pitch in and help by adding that link to XKCD 
with the worlds smallest violin.

>> As someone else pointed outthe "View full list of options for
>> getting Fedora ... " is
>> incomplete.  One option is a torrent and it isn't listed.  The very
>> least you can so is change the wording to "View some options for getting
>> Fedora...".
>
>If you follow the thread,  a patch has been posted to websites list with
>this change.
>
>Rahul

I was just there 3 minutes ago Rahul, and there is still as yet, no way to 
follow that site to a get torrents page, and the site, which is apparently 
composed for functionally blind folks, I mean whats with all the 64 & 96/128 
point fonts that waste 90% of the screens real estate, and there is still not 
a link to the torrents page.  No wonder m is bitching about screen real 
estate, that site would be completely worthless on an 800x600 screen.

But I forgot, we aren't suppose to patronize...

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Pascal Users:
To show respect for the 313th anniversary (tomorrow) of the
death of Blaise Pascal, your programs will be run at half speed.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 23:09 +0200, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>> I thought torrent was precisely invented for this kind of purpose. I
>> also held the opinion that torrent is by far the number one method of
>> getting Fedora, or any other Linux distro for that matter.
>
>It isn't. Not even amongst current Fedora users. In the survey we did
>that informed this design, only 19% used torrents to get Fedora:

I can speak for THIS user, and torrents are the only way I have pulled an iso 
in at least a year, maybe 18 months.

BWT, where _did_ you take this alleged survey?  I'm a user, and I don't 
recall being asked.

>http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/
>
Wordpress again. :(  Maybe that explains it.  I know of one site that is 
composed on wordpress, and it gets hacked weekly.  If not more often 
recently.  As in before he got done restoring it, it was hacked.

>> It offers
>> the most efficient downloading speed while keeping the main servers
>> off too much load. Also, Windows users shouldn't be underestimated for
>> their knowledge of using torrent.
>
>Honestly? I care about getting the ISO. I really don't care how
>efficiently I get it. Saving 5 minutes doesn't matter a whole lot to me.
>And for me, with my internet connection - which I understand is probably
>better than a lot of folks' connections - that is the main time
>difference.

:(  Thats a rather spoiled brat attitude IMO, the attitude of me, me!, me!.

If 25 more can complete the download via torrent because I seed the torrent 
for a day or three after I've pulled it, and by doing so I have reduced the 
overall load footprint by making a few others be able to get it from a closer 
site, then I am more than willing to donate the cycles to run it.  However, 
since there are at the moment 575 other seeders, my share ratio in 7.5 hours 
of seeding isn't to brag about.  There are about 2x the seeders that there 
are leechers (340) at the moment.

>> Removing the torrent from the download page is just a poor design
>> decision, IMHO.
>
>It's quite easy for you to say that not understanding all of the
>constraints and complications involved in the design. I would like to
>suggest that you either not say that if you don't know it to be true, or
>if you truly believe you are capable of making all of the difficult
>design decisions required to put together such a project that you join
>the Fedora design team and help out - if this is easy for you, we
>absolutely need your expertise.
>
>> People who get scared off by technical terminology on
>> a website offering a Linux operating system should probably be better
>> off using Windows or OS X anyway.
>
>Right, because Linux is only for 31337 newbies, and the middle school
>students I've been teaching Inkscape to have no right to download Fedora
>to use at home on their own - they are better off asking their parents
>to shell out thousands of dollars for Adobe products.

+100

>Man. Why do we even bother working on Linux, anyway? I mean, most people
>are better off not using it anyway. Why bother? Wow, you've really woken
>me up. I think I'll go drop by the Apple store this weekend.
>
>>  It doesn't make much sense to reduce
>> available choices and functionality of a website in order to fit to a
>> newbie frame of mind.
>
>I know people who are quite technically sophisticated and who have been
>using computers longer than I've been alive who don't know what torrent
>is nor care what it is. Just because someone doesn't know about the
>jargon that you know doesn't mean they are 'newbie' or even
>non-technical. It means they have other things in their life they know
>and care about besides operating systems.

I think I fit that category, 75, carved my first code for an RCA 1802 back in 
the 70's.  No assembler needed if the board had a 'monitor'.  As for other 
things, I fish a little as I've been told God doesn't charge you for the time 
you spend fishing when he checks ones allotted time here.

>> Following the logic of this kind of design, why does Fedora have a
>> download page at all? Anyone can use google, at least anyone who
>> aspires to try and install a whole operating system on a computer. Why
>> bother offering anything on the website explicitly? ;-)
>
>No, you're not following the logic correctly at all. Rather, you're
>taking my words and stretching them to absurd lengths. Please don't do
>that, it's pointless.

Actually. I've been getting some levity from them.  They are pointless to you 
maybe, but serve to well demo a lack of understanding of the real world that 
exists in the fedora users world, which is what this mailing list purports to 
be.  If it is no longer that, then I suggest a name change and yet another 
list be setup FOR the users.  That at least was the description when I signed 
up the first time about 12 years ago.  The list has been renamed and moved a 
few times of course, almost as if Red Hat is trying

Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:09 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
>>
>> Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> > There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
>> > [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
>> > planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on
>> > Fedora Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
>> > logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.
>>
>> But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
>> the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.
>
>Unfortunately, mailing lists aren't the best communication medium for
>sharing designs and getting feedback on them. It's pretty much a
>nightmare dealing with flames and trying to sift through hundreds of
>mails to get the few nuggets of useful feedback typically procured
>through a mailing list-based feedback process.
>
>I do think it would be hard to argue announcing and actively discussing
>the design on three separate Fedora mailing lists was not sufficient
>enough mailing list exposure!
>
OTOH, one must be subscribed to said lists in order to participate.  Those of 
us who have varied interests are generally subscribed to more mailing lists 
than we can handle by making timely, on topic and expert responses to the 
list we are on.  To demand that we subscribe to YAML just to participate in 
your often petty squabbles over the color themes etc, is to be blunt, asking 
for way too much.  My present folder count in kmail is 49, more than screen 
height

We assume there are intelligent people doing this, and at times methinks we 
assume too much.  So when you go live with a brand new page that seems poorly 
organized, there really should have been links to it made available on this 
list, say 2 weeks prior, so we could at least pull a screen shot. and fuss if 
it really is that bad.  Me, I googled for it, and hit the right page on the 
first try, but that was only because someone already suggested that was it.

>> The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
>> galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).
>
>I think you can agree with me that comparison is unfair as the designs
>were actively discussed across many public forums widely known to and
>read by Fedora contributors, as I already outlined for you. Please be
>reasonable.

But not the users forum/mailing list, so you are carrying this on in a 
relative vacuum in terms of the number of 'users' you are using.

IMO, that is no ones fault but your own...

>> > I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
>> > see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
>> > and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
>> > the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
>> > bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
>> > interested in helping, only complaining.
>>
>> If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
>> controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
>> either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
>> the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
>> hits something :-).
>
>As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
>required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
>cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
>actually obtaining Fedora. Furthermore, these methods have not been
>taken away, they have simply been de-listed from the main download
>pages. They still exist, and the folks who desire those alternative
>methods I should hope, being smart enough to understand how to install
>and run a torrent client, are also completely capable of Googling the
>extremely obvious links (e.g., torrent.fedoraproject.org) should they
>not already be aware of them.
>
>Your analogy is completely insufficient and ill-fitting for this
>scenario. A more accurate analogy to Ford removing the brakes from a car
>design would be Fedora removing the installer from the distro.

So is yours, from the users viewpoint.  Or is that not understandable?

>> Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
>> when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
>> is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
>> what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
>> you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
>> head them off.
>
>Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to
>contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If
>you're not going to contribute, don't be rude to those who did. No one
>is asking you to guess, I am just trying to let you know that you could
>have participated if you really cared to and pointe

Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 11:57 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
> I don't want this to be a "best effort" affair either.  Either he
> undertakes the job full time or not at all.  As part of the project I
> would also hope that he updates the list guidelines to indicate what
> words or phrases that we are not to use.  I can only assume that "BS"
> will be at the top of the list.
>   

Doing some work full time requires someone to pay me to do it.  I don't
see that happening.  Volunteer efforts are always going to be on a best
effort basis.  

Rahul

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Tom Horsley wrote:
>On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
>
>Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
>> [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
>> planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on Fedora
>> Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
>> logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.
>
>But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
>the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.
>
+10

>The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
>galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).

;-)
>
>> I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
>> see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
>> and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
>> the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
>> bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
>> interested in helping, only complaining.
>
>If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
>controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
>either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
>the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
>hits something :-).
>
>Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
>when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
>is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
>what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
>you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
>head them off.
>
+100

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Give me a fish and I will eat today.

Teach me to fish and I will eat forever.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Mike McCarty]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 05/27/2010 01:45 PM, Craig White wrote:
>> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 13:39 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>>   
>>> On 05/27/2010 01:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> 
 On 05/27/2010 10:58 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
   
   
> So, you are the list moderator? And who trashed anything?
> 
> 
 I don't see the need for being a list moderator to point this out but if
 you want me to play that role,  I can take that up. 

[...]

I'm beginning to remember what drove me away from participating
in this echo several years ago.

Too many egoes. Too much posturing. Too much bickering about off topic
nonsense.

Mike
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 11:45 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> So far, no other 'tone' has gotten anyones attention.  The website is a 
> disaster Rahul, you should admit it, and take steps to get it fixed if you 
> have that level of power.
>   

Everyone has that level of power if they have an interest in doing it.  
In fedora-websites list I have provided specific feedback on what could
be improved and forwarded some mails from this and will followup there.

> A bit OT for sure, but I noted some interesting statistics on that site.  KDE 
> is by far and away the choice of the downloaders.  Gnome a distant 2nd place. 
>  
> Very distant.  People do vote with their feet you know.
>   

Assuming you are referring to the spins site,  GNOME is not listed at
all in those stats.  Where are you getting your information from? 

Rahul
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 02:15:08 -0400,
  Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> So far, no other 'tone' has gotten anyones attention.  The website is a 
> disaster Rahul, you should admit it, and take steps to get it fixed if you 
> have that level of power.

I think that is an incorrect conclusion.

If people want to help they can do so by supplying constructive criticism
in an appropriate forum. (Which isn't the users list for web site design.)

I also find it very rude for people, who as far as I can tell, don't put much
work in towards making Fedora better, to make personal attacks on one of
the people near the top in the amount of work they put in to making Fedora
better.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 01:45 PM, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 13:39 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>   
>> On 05/27/2010 01:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05/27/2010 10:58 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
 So, you are the list moderator? And who trashed anything?
 
 
>>> I don't see the need for being a list moderator to point this out but if
>>> you want me to play that role,  I can take that up. 
>>>   
>>>   
>> Yes.  I want you to become the official list moderator and to point out
>> every instance of where folks are misbehaving.  Every time someone
>> insults someone or is sarcastic or where their tone is non-constructive
>> I want you to point it out.  OK?
>>
>> 
> 
> I think you are being sarcastic.
>
> Consider that Rahul is not American but rather he is from India and
> their culture is different and they tend to state what they think
> without nuance.
>
>   
No, I'm not being sarcastic in the least.  I want him to take up what he
has offered.   I feel he has set himself up as being the "the one" to
know when the tone and other things on this list out out of line.

I don't want this to be a "best effort" affair either.  Either he
undertakes the job full time or not at all.  As part of the project I
would also hope that he updates the list guidelines to indicate what
words or phrases that we are not to use.  I can only assume that "BS"
will be at the top of the list.





-- 
Man who falls in vat of molten optical glass makes spectacle of self. 葛
斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Re: root password prompts

[Mike McCarty]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 14:48 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>> AFAIK this is a function of 'sudo'. It asks you the first time and
>>> remembers for a few minutes after. I've never seen this behaviour
>> other
>>> than with sudo.
>> Umm, perhaps you mean su. The sudo command does not prompt
>> for the root password.
> 
> No, I mean sudo. In the default config it prompts for the user's
> password.

But the OP asked about "root password", not the user's password.

>> It doesn't "remember the password". It makes an entry in a log
>> with the epoch. When next invoked, sudo checks the latest entry,
>> and if less than a certain amount of time has elapsed, simply
>> goes on. If more than the time limit has elapsed, then it prompts,
>> and makes a new entry.
> 
> IOW it remembers it by logging it. How else would it do it except by
> recording it in a file?

I'm not interested in argumentation. It does not remember passwords,
period.

Mike
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 May 2010, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>On 05/27/2010 10:37 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> Climb down from your high horse for a moment and stop being so much a
>> word police and the defender of anyone with a fedoraproject.org email
>> address.  If I (or anyone else) can't use a simple "BS" without the fear
>> that someone is going to go on a pity party.
>
>There is simply no need for such a tone in the conversation. 

So far, no other 'tone' has gotten anyones attention.  The website is a 
disaster Rahul, you should admit it, and take steps to get it fixed if you 
have that level of power.

A bit OT for sure, but I noted some interesting statistics on that site.  KDE 
is by far and away the choice of the downloaders.  Gnome a distant 2nd place.  
Very distant.  People do vote with their feet you know.

>You can
>make your point without having to trash someone else's opinion.   I will
>continue to call it out when it happens regardless of the email address
>of the person.
>
>> IF you want to be constructive  instead of sarcastic   You could
>> have just noted that this change is coming.  You criticize me...but was
>> it necessary to write "If you follow the thread"?
>
>Just passing along the information.  No sarcasm intended.
>
>Rahul
>


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
You are not a fool just because you have done something foolish --
only if the folly of it escapes you.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 11:00 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 22:17 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
>> My objection was the resources to some of the
>> unconventional download methods were orphaned, as in _no_ fedora pages
>> were pointing to these entirely functional choices.
>
> Actually there is, though I doubt most people will see it. If you read
> the Installation Guide very carefully you'll find a reference to the
> torrent page and pointers on how to use BT. See
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Installation_Guide/ch-new-users.html
>  and look for section 2.1.1.2.
>
> Not nearly as useful as having it on the Get Fedora page, but it does
> exist.
>

Thanks for pointing that out Patrick. As I mentioned in my previous 
post, I probably didn't look long enough. :-p

BTW, the fedora documentation web page looks amazing! So far I haven't 
found any distribution with as detailed user documentation as Fedora in 
such an easy to find format. (Archlinux docs are actually very good, but 
probably a little technical at times. And the old Gentoo wikis used to 
be phenomenal before they lost all their data) :(

> poc
>

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 May 2010, g wrote:
>Jud Craft wrote:
>> I'm sorry if I'm late to the party or this has been previously
>
>
>
>
>true to form.
>
>38 complaints about no link to torrents, of which only 1 poster, #26,
>provides a hot link in his post.
>
>
>for me, it is easy to find because i have both
>  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
>and
>  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins
>in my browser bookmarks.
>
>i guess i have a different concept of what bookmarks are for.
>
>
>yes, i agree that writer of page should have included such information,
>as well as op of this thread, but some people do not always think things
>thru as thoroughly as they should.
>
>
>why did i wait until now to post? i wanted to see how long this thread
>would get. :^D
>
>
>so who is 'calling kettle black'?
>
>not me, i just find it interesting how some poster think. myself included.
>
>
>have i pulled iso or upgraded my installation? hell no. i am waiting until
>noise level of problems and new bugs drops.

Which is generally being drowned out by the fussing about the poorly composed 
pages at the get fedora site.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 May 2010, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>On 05/27/2010 09:57 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> A...you poor thing.
>
>Ed,  stop being so patronizing.   It doesn't help the conversation.

Oh, sorry.  Heck, I was gonna pitch in and help by adding that link to XKCD 
with the worlds smallest violin.

>> As someone else pointed outthe "View full list of options for
>> getting Fedora ... " is
>> incomplete.  One option is a torrent and it isn't listed.  The very
>> least you can so is change the wording to "View some options for getting
>> Fedora...".
>
>If you follow the thread,  a patch has been posted to websites list with
>this change.
>
>Rahul

I was just there 3 minutes ago Rahul, and there is still as yet, no way to 
follow that site to a get torrents page, and the site, which is apparently 
composed for functionally blind folks, I mean whats with all the 64 & 96/128 
point fonts that waste 90% of the screens real estate, and there is still not 
a link to the torrents page.  No wonder m is bitching about screen real 
estate, that site would be completely worthless on an 800x600 screen.

But I forgot, we aren't suppose to patronize...

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Pascal Users:
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 22:17 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> My objection was the resources to some of the 
> unconventional download methods were orphaned, as in _no_ fedora pages
> were pointing to these entirely functional choices.

Actually there is, though I doubt most people will see it. If you read
the Installation Guide very carefully you'll find a reference to the
torrent page and pointers on how to use BT. See
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Installation_Guide/ch-new-users.html
 and look for section 2.1.1.2.

Not nearly as useful as having it on the Get Fedora page, but it does
exist.

poc

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 23:09 +0200, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>> I thought torrent was precisely invented for this kind of purpose. I
>> also held the opinion that torrent is by far the number one method of
>> getting Fedora, or any other Linux distro for that matter.
>
>It isn't. Not even amongst current Fedora users. In the survey we did
>that informed this design, only 19% used torrents to get Fedora:

I can speak for THIS user, and torrents are the only way I have pulled an iso 
in at least a year, maybe 18 months.

BWT, where _did_ you take this alleged survey?  I'm a user, and I don't 
recall being asked.

>http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/
>
Wordpress again. :(  Maybe that explains it.  I know of one site that is 
composed on wordpress, and it gets hacked weekly.  If not more often 
recently.  As in before he got done restoring it, it was hacked.

>> It offers
>> the most efficient downloading speed while keeping the main servers
>> off too much load. Also, Windows users shouldn't be underestimated for
>> their knowledge of using torrent.
>
>Honestly? I care about getting the ISO. I really don't care how
>efficiently I get it. Saving 5 minutes doesn't matter a whole lot to me.
>And for me, with my internet connection - which I understand is probably
>better than a lot of folks' connections - that is the main time
>difference.

:(  Thats a rather spoiled brat attitude IMO, the attitude of me, me!, me!.

If 25 more can complete the download via torrent because I seed the torrent 
for a day or three after I've pulled it, and by doing so I have reduced the 
overall load footprint by making a few others be able to get it from a closer 
site, then I am more than willing to donate the cycles to run it.  However, 
since there are at the moment 575 other seeders, my share ratio in 7.5 hours 
of seeding isn't to brag about.  There are about 2x the seeders that there 
are leechers (340) at the moment.

>> Removing the torrent from the download page is just a poor design
>> decision, IMHO.
>
>It's quite easy for you to say that not understanding all of the
>constraints and complications involved in the design. I would like to
>suggest that you either not say that if you don't know it to be true, or
>if you truly believe you are capable of making all of the difficult
>design decisions required to put together such a project that you join
>the Fedora design team and help out - if this is easy for you, we
>absolutely need your expertise.
>
>> People who get scared off by technical terminology on
>> a website offering a Linux operating system should probably be better
>> off using Windows or OS X anyway.
>
>Right, because Linux is only for 31337 newbies, and the middle school
>students I've been teaching Inkscape to have no right to download Fedora
>to use at home on their own - they are better off asking their parents
>to shell out thousands of dollars for Adobe products.

+100

>Man. Why do we even bother working on Linux, anyway? I mean, most people
>are better off not using it anyway. Why bother? Wow, you've really woken
>me up. I think I'll go drop by the Apple store this weekend.
>
>>  It doesn't make much sense to reduce
>> available choices and functionality of a website in order to fit to a
>> newbie frame of mind.
>
>I know people who are quite technically sophisticated and who have been
>using computers longer than I've been alive who don't know what torrent
>is nor care what it is. Just because someone doesn't know about the
>jargon that you know doesn't mean they are 'newbie' or even
>non-technical. It means they have other things in their life they know
>and care about besides operating systems.

I think I fit that category, 75, carved my first code for an RCA 1802 back in 
the 70's.  No assembler needed if the board had a 'monitor'.  As for other 
things, I fish a little as I've been told God doesn't charge you for the time 
you spend fishing when he checks ones allotted time here.

>> Following the logic of this kind of design, why does Fedora have a
>> download page at all? Anyone can use google, at least anyone who
>> aspires to try and install a whole operating system on a computer. Why
>> bother offering anything on the website explicitly? ;-)
>
>No, you're not following the logic correctly at all. Rather, you're
>taking my words and stretching them to absurd lengths. Please don't do
>that, it's pointless.

Actually. I've been getting some levity from them.  They are pointless to you 
maybe, but serve to well demo a lack of understanding of the real world that 
exists in the fedora users world, which is what this mailing list purports to 
be.  If it is no longer that, then I suggest a name change and yet another 
list be setup FOR the users.  That at least was the description when I signed 
up the first time about 12 years ago.  The list has been renamed and moved a 
few times of course, almost as if Red Hat is trying

Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 13:39 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 05/27/2010 01:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > On 05/27/2010 10:58 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >   
> >> So, you are the list moderator? And who trashed anything?
> >> 
> > I don't see the need for being a list moderator to point this out but if
> > you want me to play that role,  I can take that up. 
> >   
> Yes.  I want you to become the official list moderator and to point out
> every instance of where folks are misbehaving.  Every time someone
> insults someone or is sarcastic or where their tone is non-constructive
> I want you to point it out.  OK?
> 

I think you are being sarcastic.

Consider that Rahul is not American but rather he is from India and
their culture is different and they tend to state what they think
without nuance.

Craig


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Re: root password prompts

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 10:41 PM, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 05:56 PM, Tom H wrote:
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Suvayu
>> Ali wrote:
>>> I believe what the OP is asking is the gui utility that remembers the
>>> authentication after a user enters the root password after the prompt by
>>> a gui dialogue.
>>
>> You're right. I was being stupid!
>>
>
> Happens to all of us from time to time. ;)
>
>>
>>> As far as I know this facility used to be offered by policykit and the
>>> way to set this was to use polkit-gnome-authorization. But that
>>> particular utility has been unavailable since Fedora 12.
>>
>> AFAIK the polkit gui was removed as of F12 and policies are now set up
>> by creating a pkla file in one of the subdirectories of
>> /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority.
>
> I thought the backend has always been the same, even with the polkit gui
> from F11?
>
> It was a very handy way to set things up and control the level of access
> I want to give to a regular user. After extensive searching I have been
> unable to find any proper justification for the removal.
>
> The closest I got was a thread on the desktop-list where the polkit
> developers responded to a query by a Fedora contributor with a, "It has
> been removed, not bringing it back again.". On a subsequent post by
> another contributor complaining about the obscurity of the man page
> explaining how to make the changes by hand (fiddling with the pkla
> files), was responded with a "submit a patch for the man page". I gave
> up on this ever since.
>

The said link, almost exactly as I remembered ... quite sad. :(


> When I have the time I would like to file an RFE on bugzilla about this.
>


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Re: root password prompts

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 05:56 PM, Tom H wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Suvayu Ali  
> wrote:
>> I believe what the OP is asking is the gui utility that remembers the
>> authentication after a user enters the root password after the prompt by
>> a gui dialogue.
>
> You're right. I was being stupid!
>

Happens to all of us from time to time. ;)

>
>> As far as I know this facility used to be offered by policykit and the
>> way to set this was to use polkit-gnome-authorization. But that
>> particular utility has been unavailable since Fedora 12.
>
> AFAIK the polkit gui was removed as of F12 and policies are now set up
> by creating a pkla file in one of the subdirectories of
> /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority.

I thought the backend has always been the same, even with the polkit gui 
from F11?

It was a very handy way to set things up and control the level of access 
I want to give to a regular user. After extensive searching I have been 
unable to find any proper justification for the removal.

The closest I got was a thread on the desktop-list where the polkit 
developers responded to a query by a Fedora contributor with a, "It has 
been removed, not bringing it back again.". On a subsequent post by 
another contributor complaining about the obscurity of the man page 
explaining how to make the changes by hand (fiddling with the pkla 
files), was responded with a "submit a patch for the man page". I gave 
up on this ever since.

When I have the time I would like to file an RFE on bugzilla about this.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 01:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 05/27/2010 10:58 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>   
>> So, you are the list moderator? And who trashed anything?
>> 
> I don't see the need for being a list moderator to point this out but if
> you want me to play that role,  I can take that up. 
>   
Yes.  I want you to become the official list moderator and to point out
every instance of where folks are misbehaving.  Every time someone
insults someone or is sarcastic or where their tone is non-constructive
I want you to point it out.  OK?

-- 
Think twice before speaking, but don't say "think think click click". 葛
斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 10:58 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> So, you are the list moderator? And who trashed anything?

I don't see the need for being a list moderator to point this out but if
you want me to play that role,  I can take that up. 

> For someone who is "on guard" for the tone of the conversation to not
> know that the pharse "If you follow..." can't be construed as sarcastic
> is not believable. 
>   

It was a simple statement of fact.   If you don't want to believe that, 
I can't help you. 

Rahul

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 01:11 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 05/27/2010 10:37 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>   
>> Climb down from your high horse for a moment and stop being so much a
>> word police and the defender of anyone with a fedoraproject.org email
>> address.  If I (or anyone else) can't use a simple "BS" without the fear
>> that someone is going to go on a pity party.
>>   
>> 
> There is simply no need for such a tone in the conversation.  You can
> make your point without having to trash someone else's opinion.   I will
> continue to call it out when it happens regardless of the email address
> of the person.
>   
So, you are the list moderator?   And who trashed anything?  
>   
>> IF you want to be constructive  instead of sarcastic   You could
>> have just noted that this change is coming.  You criticize me...but was
>> it necessary to write "If you follow the thread"?
>>   
>> 
> Just passing along the information.  No sarcasm intended.
>
>
>   
For someone who is "on guard" for the tone of the conversation to not
know that the pharse "If you follow..." can't be construed as sarcastic
is not believable. 

-- 
You can't have your cake and let your neighbor eat it too. -- Ayn Rand
葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 08:05 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 14:57 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
>> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:57 PM, � Duffy wrote:
>>> Where would someone get to the mirrors then? Oh just add one more link
>>> right? Okay. How about boot.fedoraproject.org or downloading a boot iso?
>>> Oh, just one or two more links. Okay. How about adding a link to KDE on
>>> the front page? Ooh, that's one more link. Okay. Oh, and someone else
>>> was complaining on a forum that I was reading yesterday that we don't
>>> have a link to download the LiveUSB creator. So we'll have to add a link
>>> for that, and a link for the instructions on how to use LiveUSB creator.
>>> Oh, but there's two versions of liveusb creator, one for Windows, one
>>> for *nix, okay then, I guess two links for that
>>>
>>> [ I could do this all day. ]
>>
>> I understand your concern and see the merit in keeping the default
>> get-fedora page simple, but I fail to see how that implies no page
>> linking to either of these pages. (or maybe I didn't look long enough)
>>
>> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
>> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins/
>>
>> The only way to get there is to use a search engine. Do you think that
>> is reasonable?
>
> You completely missed my point. Read it again. Or I can repeat it:
>
> "Just one more link" makes sense when there is "just one more link" that
> YOU want. How about everyone else's "just one more link"?
>

I think you misunderstood my statement. I understand your concern about 
adding one more link, because that can very easily escalate into many 
more "one more links". My objection was the resources to some of the 
unconventional download methods were orphaned, as in _no_ fedora pages 
were pointing to these entirely functional choices. An acceptable 
solution to me would be a tiny link in some corner pointing to a page 
with all the unconventional options.

I saw the patch you submitted and I feel that is a much better solution 
to what the web page looks like at the moment. With that patch I am a 
happy fedora member again. :) Thanks for acting on this promptly.

> ~m
>

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Re: Linking two files together

[NiftyFedora Mitch]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Rector, David  wrote:

>
> I have seen 'mmv' and 'lxsplit' and they all seem to do the same thing, 
> namely they want to physically copy the bytes in order to join two files 
> together.
>
> Is there any such utility in linux to perform such a hard link to join or 
> connect two files together without having to copy bytes?

Of interest file system data caching can make the problem of
copying files less than it might appear at first.  So... up to the
limitations of memory this is quicker than it might seem.

   # cat file1 file2 file3 > bigdatafile
   # yourapplication bigdatafile

In this case "yourapplication" will interact with data
blocks that are still 'live' in the system buffer
cache as a result of using cat to build the
big file.   Since the application must read the
bytes anything that preloads cache is not
a negative.

Since this laptop has 3GB of RAM I expect that
today lots of data cache is possible.   If the
data is big and busts cache then there are
other issues to consider.


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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 10:37 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
> Climb down from your high horse for a moment and stop being so much a
> word police and the defender of anyone with a fedoraproject.org email
> address.  If I (or anyone else) can't use a simple "BS" without the fear
> that someone is going to go on a pity party.
>   

There is simply no need for such a tone in the conversation.  You can
make your point without having to trash someone else's opinion.   I will
continue to call it out when it happens regardless of the email address
of the person.

> IF you want to be constructive  instead of sarcastic   You could
> have just noted that this change is coming.  You criticize me...but was
> it necessary to write "If you follow the thread"?
>   

Just passing along the information.  No sarcasm intended.

Rahul

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Re: [URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[g]

Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming) wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will keep 
> this very short.

already too long.

> Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General from 
> the Republic of Singapore?

not personally.

> I want to contact him but can't seem to find his email address or telephone
> number on the internet. Could you help me?

learn to use google.com in advanced mode.

   http://www.google.com/advanced_search

search # 1:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=harvard+law+school&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images


search # 2:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Francis+T.+Seow&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.harvard.edu%2F&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

check links shown.

-- 

peace out.

tc,hago.

g
.


in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/




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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 12:30 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 05/27/2010 09:57 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>   
>> A...you poor thing.
>>   
>> 
> Ed,  stop being so patronizing.   It doesn't help the conversation.
It doesn't help the conversation when a great percentage of the post I
responded to was full of pity statements and claims that somehow taking
issue with the design of the site means that I (folks) don't have
respect ... are unfair ... claiming superiority, etc.

Climb down from your high horse for a moment and stop being so much a
word police and the defender of anyone with a fedoraproject.org email
address.  If I (or anyone else) can't use a simple "BS" without the fear
that someone is going to go on a pity party.

>   
>
>   
>> As someone else pointed outthe "View full list of options for
>> getting Fedora ... " is
>> incomplete.  One option is a torrent and it isn't listed.  The very
>> least you can so is change the wording to "View some options for getting
>> Fedora...".
>>   
>> 
> If you follow the thread,  a patch has been posted to websites list with
> this change. 
>
>   

IF you want to be constructive  instead of sarcastic   You could
have just noted that this change is coming.  You criticize me...but was
it necessary to write "If you follow the thread"?

-- 
If God had wanted you to go around nude, He would have given you bigger
hands. 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Re: Firefox java plugin

[Chris Spike]

Hi Alejandro,

On 05/27/2010 04:53 AM, Alejandro Rodriguez Luna wrote:
> Hi all, i just installed F13 and downloaded java from sun, and installed
> on /opt, the problem is that i can't get the plugin for firefox work, i
> made a soft link from /opt/jre/plugins/i386/ libjavaplugin_oji.so to
> ~/.mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so and didn't work, I always had
> made the same procedure.

http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/install/jre/manual-plugin-install-linux.html

hth, Chris
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Re: Linking two files together

[NiftyFedora Mitch]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Rector, David  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have studied various filesystems, and am fairly familiar with how they are 
> structured. However, I am currently stuck on trying to do what seems like a 
> simple thing.
>
> I would like to join two files together without having to physically copy 
> bytes (i.e. I have vary large files, so I don't want to use 'cat'). It seems 
> to me that it should be possible to simply modify the file entry in the 
> filesystem such that the last inode of the first file points to the first 
> inode of the second file. I guess this is similar to a "hard link", but used 
> to join files rather than simply have another pointer to one file.
>
> I have seen 'mmv' and 'lxsplit' and they all seem to do the same thing, 
> namely they want to physically copy the bytes in order to join two files 
> together.
>
> Is there any such utility in linux to perform such a hard link to join or 
> connect two files together without having to copy bytes?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Dave Rector
> *:^)
> --

There is no way that this can work as you might expect.
Consider the end of a file.   If the allocation block is the
common 4K bytes then the file can end at one of
4096 different byte locations.   So even if the BLOCKS could
be joined the bytes cannot.

However in use the common way to deal with this is
to cat multiple files into a pipe and have the program
read the pipe (stream).  i.e

  # cat file1 file2 file3 | program

You  can  avoid the copy of bytes in the first file
and copy then append bytes from the second file
onto the first.

  # cat file2 >> file1

Programs can open a sequence of files
one after another.  Because of this there
is seldom a need to "append" files as
you seem to want.

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[URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)]

Hi,

First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will keep 
this very short.

Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General from 
the Republic of Singapore? I want to contact him but can't seem to find 
his email address or telephone number on the internet. Could you help me?

Thank you very much.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Teo En Ming
Hanyu Pinyin Name: Zhang Enming
Facebook: Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)
Mobile Phone (Starhub Pre-paid): +65-8369-2618
Singapore Citizen

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[g]

Jud Craft wrote:
> I'm sorry if I'm late to the party or this has been previously



true to form.

38 complaints about no link to torrents, of which only 1 poster, #26,
provides a hot link in his post.


for me, it is easy to find because i have both
  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
and
  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins
in my browser bookmarks.

i guess i have a different concept of what bookmarks are for.


yes, i agree that writer of page should have included such information,
as well as op of this thread, but some people do not always think things
thru as thoroughly as they should.


why did i wait until now to post? i wanted to see how long this thread
would get. :^D


so who is 'calling kettle black'?

not me, i just find it interesting how some poster think. myself included.


have i pulled iso or upgraded my installation? hell no. i am waiting until
noise level of problems and new bugs drops.


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peace out.

tc,hago.

g
.


in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
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'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/




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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 05/27/2010 09:57 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> A...you poor thing.
>   

Ed,  stop being so patronizing.   It doesn't help the conversation.  

> As someone else pointed outthe "View full list of options for
> getting Fedora ... " is
> incomplete.  One option is a torrent and it isn't listed.  The very
> least you can so is change the wording to "View some options for getting
> Fedora...".
>   

If you follow the thread,  a patch has been posted to websites list with
this change. 

Rahul

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Re: [URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)]

I must apologize. I keep sending out emails but I get very little 
replies. It looks like my email accounts may have been compromised and 
so I have to resort to this method.

Once again, very sorry.

Thank you very much.



On 05/27/2010 12:24 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> What does this have to do with Fedora?
>
> On 5/26/2010 9:03 PM, Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming) wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will keep
>> this very short.
>>
>> Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General from
>> the Republic of Singapore? I want to contact him but can't seem to find
>> his email address or telephone number on the internet. Could you help 
>> me?
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>> Mr. Teo En Ming
>> Hanyu Pinyin Name: Zhang Enming
>> Facebook: Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)
>> Mobile Phone (Starhub Pre-paid): +65-8369-2618
>> Singapore Citizen
>
>


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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 11:30 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 06:34 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:  
>   
>> That is pure BS. 
>> 
> No, it is not "pure BS." What a disrespectful thing to say!
>   
A...you poor thing.

> Fedora us supposed to lead, not follow. Copying other distros isn't what
> we do.
>   
Let's see how many distros follow this lead

I don't trust your informal surveys.  You had a sample size of 78.  You
have no choice of going to fedoraproject.org and going to the bittorrent
links as could be done previously.  How did you choose you
participants?  Did you ascertain the level of expertise of your
participants?

I can see there is no point in continuing trying to "discuss" this.  It
is quite clear you've decided you are beyond reproach.  IMHO, that is
why you took so much time with the "pity me" questions/statements. 

As someone else pointed outthe "View full list of options for
getting Fedora ... " is
incomplete.  One option is a torrent and it isn't listed.  The very
least you can so is change the wording to "View some options for getting
Fedora...".





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Re: [URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)]

Do you also know how I can contact all the justices of the Judicial 
Committee of the UK Privy Council and all the Lords of the UK House of 
Lords? According to the UK Parliament website, it says that many Peers 
do not have public email addresses.

Thank you very much.



On 05/27/2010 12:03 PM, Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will 
> keep this very short.
>
> Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General 
> from the Republic of Singapore? I want to contact him but can't seem 
> to find his email address or telephone number on the internet. Could 
> you help me?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Mr. Teo En Ming
> Hanyu Pinyin Name: Zhang Enming
> Facebook: Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)
> Mobile Phone (Starhub Pre-paid): +65-8369-2618
> Singapore Citizen
>


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Re: [URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[Paul Allen Newell]

What does this have to do with Fedora?

On 5/26/2010 9:03 PM, Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will keep
> this very short.
>
> Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General from
> the Republic of Singapore? I want to contact him but can't seem to find
> his email address or telephone number on the internet. Could you help me?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Mr. Teo En Ming
> Hanyu Pinyin Name: Zhang Enming
> Facebook: Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)
> Mobile Phone (Starhub Pre-paid): +65-8369-2618
> Singapore Citizen
>

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PYCURL ERROR 6 and slow tranfer rates

[Marcel Rieux]

New updates today and the PYCURL ERROR 6 comes back again.

It looks like this:

Total download size: 87 M
Is this ok [y/N]: y
Downloading Packages:
http://mirror.pnl.gov/fedora/linux/updates/12/x86_64/kdebase-4.4.3-2.fc12.1.x86_64.rpm:
[Errno 14] PYCURL ERROR 6 - ""
Trying other mirror.
http://mirror.liberty.edu/pub/fedora/linux/updates/12/x86_64/kdebase-4.4.3-2.fc12.1.x86_64.rpm:
[Errno 14] PYCURL ERROR 6 - ""
Trying other mirror.
(1/21):
kdebase-4.4.3-2.fc12.1.x86_64.rpm
| 3.5 MB 00:13
(2/21):
kdebase-libs-4.4.3-2.fc12.1.x86_64.rpm
| 265 kB 00:09
(3/21): kdebase-runtime-4.4.3-1.fc12.1.x86_64 (8%) 56%
[]  25 kB/s | 3.9 MB 02:07 ETA

(...)

(18/21): oxygen-icon-theme-4.4.3-1.fc12.noarc (76%) 13%
[-  ]  417 B/s | 2.9 MB770:33 ETA

And sometimes the transfer rate goes up tp 450kB/s for a few seconds. Then
down to a few hundred bytes again.
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[URGENT] Assistance Requested in Looking for Dr Francis T. Seow, Harvard Law School Research Fellow

[Mr. Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)]

Hi,

First, I would like to apologize for the out-of-topic post. I will keep 
this very short.

Does anybody know Dr. Francis T. Seow, the former Solicitor-General from 
the Republic of Singapore? I want to contact him but can't seem to find 
his email address or telephone number on the internet. Could you help me?

Thank you very much.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Teo En Ming
Hanyu Pinyin Name: Zhang Enming
Facebook: Teo En Ming (Zhang Enming)
Mobile Phone (Starhub Pre-paid): +65-8369-2618
Singapore Citizen
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Re: Linking two files together

[Cameron Simpson]

On 26May2010 17:06, Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
| On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 07:30 +1000, Cameron Simpson wrote:
| > Can you elaborate on why you want this as opposed to to a hard link?
| > i.e. what specific facility a hard link does _not_ give you that your
| > proposal would?
| 
| A hard link just gives a specific file an extra name. The OP wants a
| single name to refer to the concatenated contents of several files,
| without having to copy them.

Oh, that kind of "join".

I've actually got one of them right here, but it's barely at alpha stage
at present, hardly ready for others to burn their fingers with.
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but the water has moved on.
This page is not here.
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Re: mdraid & dmraid, Fedora 11 & Fedora 13

[Aram J. Agajanian]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 07:50:35 -0700
Joe Christy  wrote:
> 
> Vis-a-vis Aram J. Agajanian's note of 2010-05-25 20:22:
> > I have installed Fedora onto several computers with Intel BIOS RAID
> > arrays and have always partitioned similarly to the way that you
> > have described.  Anaconda has detected the BIOS RAID array and
> > generated the fstab correctly in F12 and F13.  I have never
> > used /etc/crypttab and always do fresh installs.
> 
>   Let me ask for a little clarification, please, Aram. Have you
> migrated such a machine from F11 to F12 (or even F13)? If so, did you
> wipe the physical volume and re-partition, or did you re-use the old
> partition scheme?

One computer with an Intel BIOS RAID array has maintained its
partitioning and most of its logical volumes since F8.  I have installed
F8, F9, F11, F12, and F13 on this computer.  I reserve two LVs for root
partitions and alternate between them.  The filesystems which mount
on /home and /opt/files were preserved when F12 was installed.  This is
the only experience that I have so far migrating filesystems from
dmraid to mdraid but there were no problems.  

This summer, I expect to install F13 on two computers with F11
currently installed and Intel BIOS RAID arrays.  I have used the same
partitioning scheme on these computers also.


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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 19:54 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:55 -0700
> Suvayu Ali wrote:
> 
> > I understand your concern and see the merit in keeping the default 
> > get-fedora page simple, but I fail to see how that implies no page 
> > linking to either of these pages. (or maybe I didn't look long enough)
> 
> I like the default page too, but the default page has a link on
> it with the text "View full list of options for getting Fedora ...",
> that page http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options isn't
> remotely close to a full list of options for getting fedora.

See, those aren't options for 'getting' Fedora, they are Fedora
options... see below...
> 
> No possible train of logic involving mythical average users can
> justify leaving download options off of a page claiming to be
> all the download options.

The wording is a little confusing - we offer way too many options. 

When you read 'download options', you think, 'methods of downloading.'
The way 'download options' was originally intended, however, was to
mean, 'different variations of Fedora' - options like Desktop,
Architecture, etc. Options for FEDORA, not how you were DOWNLOADING it.

Fair enough, part of the patch I put together for the site rewords the
text to say, "View more Fedora options" rather than "View full list of
options for getting Fedora." You can see the patch and a screenshot
here:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-May/008043.html

> And while this thread is talking about the response of average
> users to the download page, what about the average users who
> want to try fedora for the first time and are disgusted to
> discover that fedora apparently doesn't have any mirrors or
> torrent support.

I don't think those users are really in the majority to be quite honest:

http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/

Less than 1/3 for sure... 

>  After all the page claims to be "full list of
> options". Why would I go do searches for things not mentioned
> on the page that already claims to be everything?

I agree the wording is confusing, I hope the change mentioned above
helps address the issue.

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 19:58 -0300, Andre Costa wrote:


> First of all: I do appreciate all the effort in making the download
> page easier to newbies, and I recognize a lot of thought has been
> spent in doing so. However, it doesn't mean the result can't be
> improved, even if the improvements will only be perceived by a portion
> of the audience.
> 

Absolutely. We could certainly do without the hateful and unfair
commentary, though.

Please see
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-May/008043.html -
I made a lot of adjustments based on the user feedback we've gotten over
the past couple of days. There's a screenshot in there that shows some
of the changes.

> I agree with Alan that it wouldn't hurt to have this extra link at the
> bottom of the page, I don't think this would distract newbies
> considering they should be attracted to the big blue "Download Now!"
> button in the middle of the screen =) I must say I also spent a couple
> of minutes going back and forth trying to find a link to the torrents
> (... sure, I could have Googled right away -- which I ended up doing
> after visiting the "Formats" page for the 3rd time ;-))

That's exactly what the design revision has done. The archives link has
been swapped out with one general, 'Alternative download methods' link
that points to get-fedora-all, which has been supplemented with the
archives link.

~m


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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 06:34 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:  
> That is pure BS. 

No, it is not "pure BS." What a disrespectful thing to say!

> If people don't know what a bittorrent is or a jigdo they will ignore
> it...

How do you know this? Have you performed usability tests of interfaces
with technical jargon users were unfamiliar with and gauged their
reactions? 

> as long as you don't make those the primary download methods.  As
> to those that know what they are...if those methods are available they
> should have a place in the "Get Fedora" page.  They should not have to
> hunt it down just because they are "intelligent".
> 
> http://software.opensuse.org/112/en   has a direct link to bittorrent
> http://www2.mandriva.com/downloads/  has an obvious link to bittorent
> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download has "Alternative
> Downloads" that simply leads you to bittorrent.
> http://www.debian.org/distrib/ has a direct link to bottorrent
> http://www.slackware.com/getslack/  has a direct link to bittorrent
> http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=59  has a direct link to a torrent
> 
> I could go on.

Fedora us supposed to lead, not follow. Copying other distros isn't what
we do.

> By your logic...anyone with knowledge of a torrent would go to the "get
> fedora" page, find there is no torrent for fedora and choose a different
> distro and everyone that visited the pages above would flock to fedora
> when they encountered the dreaded "bittorrent" links.

No. By my logic (and actually, I know having talked to many users who
used torrent as a method to download Fedora) not all torrent users grab
the torrent link for Fedora from the Fedora website. I have talked to
several torrent users in the past couple of days who told me they either
went directly to torrents.fedoraproject.org (sometimes via google,
sometimes via a link in a forum or IRC) or accessed the torrent via a
torrent tracker site.

> If you spent half as much time designing a decent download page as
> you've spent defending a poor decision you wouldn't be hearing grief.

I don't understand. Why don't you have any respect for the folks putting
together Fedora? Why do you have to be disrespectful to me? What does
making these terribly sarcastic and unfair comments get you? Do you
think you're superior to me? Do you think talking to me like this really
makes you better than me?

Do you realize how much work was put into the design? Do you have any
idea how many hours were spent on it?

http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/how-do-you-get-fedora/
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-result-discussion/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-27
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00042.html
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009/Mockups/Get.fpo

I think it would take you at least twice as long just to review that
material than I've spent on this thread.

~m



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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 15:05 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> >> That would have at least kept me (and probably many others) from
> >> scanning the page over and over again for ten minutes looking for what
> >> I just knew must be there.
> >
> > No, it wouldn't.
> 
> Yes, it would. 

No. You completely snipped out the part you were supposed to read. Go
back and read it. The point I was making is that statement would never
be on the page. As phrased it would have taken up way too much real
estate. Too much real estate? Yes. Go back and read.

> Apparently, a class of users looking to update their Fedora
> installations by a heretofore encouraged and commonly available path
> are not, in fact, customers from the perspective of the
> Every-Way-To-Get-Fedora web page. Good information, that. I'll make a
> note of it.

That's a very interesting conclusion given the very large, 'Need to
upgrade Fedora?' section on the very first download page. 

> I'm unlikely to be following many developer-oriented lists, in any
> case. Like I said, I'm just a user.

Is Fedora Weekly News developer oriented? Planet Fedora? Really?

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 23:09 +0200, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> I thought torrent was precisely invented for this kind of purpose. I
> also held the opinion that torrent is by far the number one method of
> getting Fedora, or any other Linux distro for that matter. 

It isn't. Not even amongst current Fedora users. In the survey we did
that informed this design, only 19% used torrents to get Fedora:

http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/

> It offers
> the most efficient downloading speed while keeping the main servers
> off too much load. Also, Windows users shouldn't be underestimated for
> their knowledge of using torrent.

Honestly? I care about getting the ISO. I really don't care how
efficiently I get it. Saving 5 minutes doesn't matter a whole lot to me.
And for me, with my internet connection - which I understand is probably
better than a lot of folks' connections - that is the main time
difference.

> Removing the torrent from the download page is just a poor design
> decision, IMHO. 

It's quite easy for you to say that not understanding all of the
constraints and complications involved in the design. I would like to
suggest that you either not say that if you don't know it to be true, or
if you truly believe you are capable of making all of the difficult
design decisions required to put together such a project that you join
the Fedora design team and help out - if this is easy for you, we
absolutely need your expertise.

> People who get scared off by technical terminology on
> a website offering a Linux operating system should probably be better
> off using Windows or OS X anyway.

Right, because Linux is only for 31337 newbies, and the middle school
students I've been teaching Inkscape to have no right to download Fedora
to use at home on their own - they are better off asking their parents
to shell out thousands of dollars for Adobe products.

Man. Why do we even bother working on Linux, anyway? I mean, most people
are better off not using it anyway. Why bother? Wow, you've really woken
me up. I think I'll go drop by the Apple store this weekend. 

>  It doesn't make much sense to reduce
> available choices and functionality of a website in order to fit to a
> newbie frame of mind.

I know people who are quite technically sophisticated and who have been
using computers longer than I've been alive who don't know what torrent
is nor care what it is. Just because someone doesn't know about the
jargon that you know doesn't mean they are 'newbie' or even
non-technical. It means they have other things in their life they know
and care about besides operating systems.

> Following the logic of this kind of design, why does Fedora have a
> download page at all? Anyone can use google, at least anyone who
> aspires to try and install a whole operating system on a computer. Why
> bother offering anything on the website explicitly? ;-)

No, you're not following the logic correctly at all. Rather, you're
taking my words and stretching them to absurd lengths. Please don't do
that, it's pointless.

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 14:57 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:57 PM, � Duffy wrote:
> > Where would someone get to the mirrors then? Oh just add one more link
> > right? Okay. How about boot.fedoraproject.org or downloading a boot iso?
> > Oh, just one or two more links. Okay. How about adding a link to KDE on
> > the front page? Ooh, that's one more link. Okay. Oh, and someone else
> > was complaining on a forum that I was reading yesterday that we don't
> > have a link to download the LiveUSB creator. So we'll have to add a link
> > for that, and a link for the instructions on how to use LiveUSB creator.
> > Oh, but there's two versions of liveusb creator, one for Windows, one
> > for *nix, okay then, I guess two links for that
> >
> > [ I could do this all day. ]
> 
> I understand your concern and see the merit in keeping the default 
> get-fedora page simple, but I fail to see how that implies no page 
> linking to either of these pages. (or maybe I didn't look long enough)
> 
> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins/
> 
> The only way to get there is to use a search engine. Do you think that 
> is reasonable?

You completely missed my point. Read it again. Or I can repeat it:

"Just one more link" makes sense when there is "just one more link" that
YOU want. How about everyone else's "just one more link"?

~m

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Re: Firefox java plugin

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 10:53 AM, Alejandro Rodriguez Luna wrote:
> Hi all, i just installed F13 and downloaded java from sun, and
> installed on /opt, the problem is that i can't get the plugin for
> firefox work, i made a soft link from /opt/jre/plugins/i386/
> libjavaplugin_oji.so to ~/.mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so and
> didn't work, I always had made the same procedure.
>
> any advise?
> --
> Alejandro Rodriguez Luna
> MSN: el_alexl...@yahoo.com.mx
> --
>
>
>   
Go to the sun java site and read the installation instructions.  The
method/link you are creating is no longer the right way to do it.

-- 
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with an axe. 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Fedora 13 + nvidia + kde

[slamp slamp]

I had a problem logging into KDE after an upgrade from Fedora 12. I
have akmod-nvidia installed. To fix the login issue I had to remove
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1 as I was seeing ksmserver: symbol lookup error:
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1 in my xessions log file.

anyone know a better fix? the nvidia driver provides its own
libGL.so.1. not sure how to get KDE to use that instead of the one
provided by mesa-libgl.
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Re: Linking two files together

[john wendel]

On 05/26/2010 10:16 AM, Rector, David wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have studied various filesystems, and am fairly familiar with how they are 
> structured. However, I am currently stuck on trying to do what seems like a 
> simple thing.
>
> I would like to join two files together without having to physically copy 
> bytes (i.e. I have vary large files, so I don't want to use 'cat'). It seems 
> to me that it should be possible to simply modify the file entry in the 
> filesystem such that the last inode of the first file points to the first 
> inode of the second file. I guess this is similar to a "hard link", but used 
> to join files rather than simply have another pointer to one file.
>
> I have seen 'mmv' and 'lxsplit' and they all seem to do the same thing, 
> namely they want to physically copy the bytes in order to join two files 
> together.
>
> Is there any such utility in linux to perform such a hard link to join or 
> connect two files together without having to copy bytes?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Dave Rector
> *:^)


You could create a shared library that replaces the libc versions of 
"open", "read", "write", "seek", "lseek", "close", ... (whatever your 
app needs). It would open multiple files, but return a single file 
handle to the caller. It would need to track the "virtual" file pointer 
by examining each read, write, seek call and switch "real" files as 
required. Not trivial, but also not rocket science. Just handling 
sequential reads is pretty simple. Full file handling semantics would be 
a pain.

Regards,

John

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Firefox java plugin

[Alejandro Rodriguez Luna]

Hi all, i just installed F13 and downloaded java from sun, and installed on 
/opt, the problem is that i can't get the plugin for firefox work, i made a 
soft link from /opt/jre/plugins/i386/ libjavaplugin_oji.so to 
~/.mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so and didn't work, I always had made the 
same procedure.

any advise?
--

Alejandro Rodriguez Luna

MSN: el_alexl...@yahoo.com.mx

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Re: Fedora 13 Installation frustrations

[Kam Leo]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Leslie S Satenstein
 wrote:
>
> I had to let you know how I passed a night of no sleep to install Fedora13.
>
> My Configuration.
> disk hd0,  XP on 1st half,  Fedora12 on second.
> Disk hd1  W7 on 1st half,  storage (fat32) on second half
>
> CPU memory 4 gigs, ATI video card, and Intel e7300 dual core cpu. DVD Burner, 
> etc.
>
> I decided to wipe clean the F12 installation, or shall we say that the last 
> set of updates prior to Fedora 13 decided that for me --- Gnome errors 
> gallore, making F13 installation imperative
>
> Try 1
> I used wgetc -c  link to F13-64bit to download.  I burned the DVD and in 
> bootking from the DVD, the disk check utility indicated an error. -- Scrap 
> the DVD and the downloaded file.
>
> Try2,
> Same as Try1, except that it was a new wgetc -c and a new burned DVD.  Again 
> errors reported.
>
> Try 3,  Forget Wgetc as the F13 image on the host must probably be damaged.  
> I used bit-torrent to download and burn the DVD.  The DVD passed the test, no 
> errors.
>
> Step 2 (start the installlation, tell Anaconda to reuse the linux space on 
> hd0, I asked for customize now, selected what I wanted, and also chose to 
> include two repros
> update fedora64 and Fedora64 (not the exact names). I started at 10pm, it was 
> now 1am, and there were 2500 or so files to install.  I went away after it 
> started, and when I returned at 2am,  it had crashed with a "Unable to 
> install Samba" error.
>
> Step 3,  restart, select graphics mode only, select customize later, and did 
> not include the extra repros.  Result, Anaconda missed including the XP 
> system on hd0, but pointed to HD1 and the W7 system.     Back to modify 
> grub.conf  to match the F12 values.
>
> At this time, it was 4am in the morning, I shutdown to catch some sleep and 
> left for work at 8:30am.   Fedora13 is installed, but incomplete for my 
> needs. Today I catch up.
>
> Leslie
> PS total time 6 hrs, from 10 pm to 4am.

Tips for your next installation:

A) DVD may be still usable despite errors.

Try a network install by pressing TAB and entering "linux askmethod"
at the prompt.

B) Cut out time wasting installs.

1. Do a minimal install.
2. Reboot
3. Enable additional repositories
4. Install additional packages

That will cut down on churn; i.e. installing obsolete packages from
installation source and immediately upgrading those stale packages
upon reboot.

By the way, total elapsed time to upgrade my AMD 1.8G Hz Sempron was
12 hours (1734 upgrade packages from DVD and 950 yum updates after
rebooting.)
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F12 to F13 upgrade doesn't update grub.conf

[Athmane Madjoudj]

Hello

I have updated my laptop from F12 to F13 using the DVD upgrade method,

after the installation my laptop can't boot because the fedora installer 
have not updated grub.conf so i rebooted to rescue mode and i have 
updated grub.conf manually, now the system boot with kernel version 
2.6.33.3-85.fc13.i686 but again when i have updated the kernel using yum 
the package kernel-2.6.33.4-95.fc13 has been installed but grub.conf 
didn't get updated.

any suggestions ?


Best regards


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Re: root password prompts

[Tom H]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Suvayu Ali  wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 02:27 PM, Tom H wrote:
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Tom Horsley  wrote:
>>> I have seen claims on this list that the root password is
>>> remembered for a small amount of time so you don't keep
>>> getting asked. That has never worked for me, but I assumed
>>> it was just because I was running a non-standard session
>>> and was missing something.
>>>
>>> Today I was running system-config-printer to install all
>>> the various printers around here at work on a freshly
>>> installed fedora 13 system running as a brand new user
>>> in a standard gnome session.
>>>
>>> I get three or four root password prompts for each
>>> separate printer install.
>>>
>>> Where is this mythical setting to make it
>>> remember the password?
>>
>> I have never seen "su" remember a password but "sudo" does. You can
>> set the time-period for which the password is remembered with
>> "timestamp_timeout" in "/etc/sudoers". The default might vary from
>> distribution to distribution.


> I believe what the OP is asking is the gui utility that remembers the
> authentication after a user enters the root password after the prompt by
> a gui dialogue.

You're right. I was being stupid!


> As far as I know this facility used to be offered by policykit and the
> way to set this was to use polkit-gnome-authorization. But that
> particular utility has been unavailable since Fedora 12.

AFAIK the polkit gui was removed as of F12 and policies are now set up
by creating a pkla file in one of the subdirectories of
/var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority.
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Re: root password prompts

[Genes MailLists]

On 05/26/2010 06:17 PM, Suvayu Ali wrote:

> In short you are better off configuring sudo and calling 
> system-config-printer from the terminal like this,
> 
> $ sudo system-config-printer
> 

Sort of begs the question why the GUI does not use sudo ... let the gui
do what it does best .. goo-eee .. and leave the sudo'ing to sudo ???

Or is that how it worked ?
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:55 -0700
Suvayu Ali wrote:

> I understand your concern and see the merit in keeping the default 
> get-fedora page simple, but I fail to see how that implies no page 
> linking to either of these pages. (or maybe I didn't look long enough)

I like the default page too, but the default page has a link on
it with the text "View full list of options for getting Fedora ...",
that page http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options isn't
remotely close to a full list of options for getting fedora.

No possible train of logic involving mythical average users can
justify leaving download options off of a page claiming to be
all the download options.

And while this thread is talking about the response of average
users to the download page, what about the average users who
want to try fedora for the first time and are disgusted to
discover that fedora apparently doesn't have any mirrors or
torrent support. After all the page claims to be "full list of
options". Why would I go do searches for things not mentioned
on the page that already claims to be everything?
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Re: root password prompts

[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 15:17:41 -0700
Suvayu Ali wrote:

> In short you are better off configuring sudo and calling 
> system-config-printer from the terminal like this,
> 
> $ sudo system-config-printer

Yes, running this stuff as root usually works (except
for the brief period of time where the code refused to authorize
root to run as root :-), but I was just trying out the
"normal" interface to see if it worked as I'd been told.
I guess it doesn't.

The system-config-printer case seems to be the most insane
with separate root prompts showing up at several stages
of the printer definition process.

This, of course, brings up the whole "login as root"
controversy, since it isn't at all obvious what the
heck the names of the programs are which are associated
with menu items, so it is far simpler to login as root
in order to run these things without getting
prompted over and over.

Those in "the know" can grep in the /usr/share/applications
directory or just ls /usr/bin/system-config-* and make
good guesses, but it takes a while to stumble across
that info.
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RE: F12->F13 DVD Upgrade fails

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:33 -0500, Styma, Robert E (Robert) wrote:
> 
> > However nothing in that directory is labelled as an .iso image file. The
> > README talks about "boot.iso" but there is no such file on the entire
> > DVD (I verified with "find").
> 
> You can find a copy of the boot.iso here, or at whatever mirror you prefer.
> 
> http://mirrors.kernel.org/fedora/releases/13/Fedora/i386/os/images/boot.iso

Thanks. It's extremely interesting that this directory (in fact the
x86_64 version) is the same as the images directory on the DVD, except
for the existence of the boot.iso file.

poc

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Roger]

Regarding the below comment
I've used Red Hat and now Fedora for many years. I, too, wouldn't join 
another list just to comment.
Google 'get fedora' provided a link, so far so good.

I found the Fedora site was 'ok',  graphisc seem very pixelated, look 
and feel are unrepresentative of Fedora quality.
The main things, Download and more info,  were there.
Roger




On 05/27/2010 02:25 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 05/26/2010 09:51 PM, Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 17:24 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Voice your opinion on the websites[1] list.
>>>
>>> [1] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not joining that list to say one thing:
>>
>> The new "Get Fedora" site blows.  I couldn't easily find anything I was
>> looking for.  What a jumbled mess.
>>
>> It was easier to use before.
>>
>>  
> I am afraid that is not is a useful comment.  It doesn't say anything
> specific.  If the goal is to provide feedback to help improve the
> design,  it requires a mutual discussion rather than just shouting
> something rude from the roof tops.
>
> Rahul
>

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 17:24:09 -0400,
  Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> >
> >I do think it would be hard to argue announcing and actively discussing
> >the design on three separate Fedora mailing lists was not sufficient
> >enough mailing list exposure!
> >
> OTOH, one must be subscribed to said lists in order to participate.  Those of 
> us who have varied interests are generally subscribed to more mailing lists 
> than we can handle by making timely, on topic and expert responses to the 
> list we are on.  To demand that we subscribe to YAML just to participate in 
> your often petty squabbles over the color themes etc, is to be blunt, asking 
> for way too much.  My present folder count in kmail is 49, more than screen 
> height

That depends on what level of participation you want. If you want to be
actively involved before something is revealed to the public at large
it makes very much sense to be subscribed to the list where that part of
Fedora is worked on.

If you want to provide suggestions or other feedback after the fact, then
it is appropriate to provide thoughtful comment to track or bugzilla
tickets (as appropriate for the specific team) with that feedback. That
feedback can then be incorporated when doing the design for the next
iteration. Or if your interest level has increased perhaps consider subscribing
to the list for a limited period of time to discuss your ideas with the team.
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Re: How does F13 work with nvidia hardware ?

[Richard Allen]

On 05/26/2010 03:57 PM, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> I run the proprietary, closed source nvidia driver in F12.  What happens
> when I upgrade to F13 ?

At first glance things work just fine for me on my laptop.   The laptop has
a Quadro FX1500M chip.
However, when using GL apps things get a bit strange.   mplayer -vo gl (or
-vo gl2) just wont work for me.
vlc runs and plays things but sometimes I have green lines popping up in the
movie here and there.

Still...   It's a HUGE improvement from previous versions.

I still have to test my ID titles (Wolf, Quake, Doom) and then C&C Tiberium
wars and RA3 under wine ;)   If it passes those tests, I'm sticking with the
Open Source drivers


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   --  Solaris 7 Certified Systems and Network Administrator.
Bell Labs Unix --  Reach out and grep someone.
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Andre Costa]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 17:42, Alan Evans  wrote:

> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> > On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:22 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> >> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> >> > The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the design.
> >> > The assumption was that if someone understands how to use bittorrent,
> >> > jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable of making use of a
> >> > search engine to find them.
> >>
> >> I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could* use
> >> a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that didn't
> >> deliberately exclude them.
> >
> > How about the silent group of folks who looked at the old Fedora get
> > page, had no clue what half of the jargon on the page went, and then
> > browsed away to look at another distro or worse just stuck with Windows
> > or OS X?
>
> You seem to think that the only alternative to completely excluding
> the more technical options is to scatter incomprehensible jargon all
> over the page. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.
>
> How about something like this at the bottom of the page?:
>
> "Users looking for the Torrent downloads should go [link]here[/link].
> If you don't know what a Torrent is then it's not what you want."
>
> That would have at least kept me (and probably many others) from
> scanning the page over and over again for ten minutes looking for what
> I just knew must be there.
>
> -Alan
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>

First of all: I do appreciate all the effort in making the download page
easier to newbies, and I recognize a lot of thought has been spent in doing
so. However, it doesn't mean the result can't be improved, even if the
improvements will only be perceived by a portion of the audience.

I agree with Alan that it wouldn't hurt to have this extra link at the
bottom of the page, I don't think this would distract newbies considering
they should be attracted to the big blue "Download Now!" button in the
middle of the screen =) I must say I also spent a couple of minutes going
back and forth trying to find a link to the torrents (... sure, I could have
Googled right away -- which I ended up doing after visiting the "Formats"
page for the 3rd time ;-))

Just my $0.02.

Regards,

Andre
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Re: Fedora 12, Xorg, and Apex Outlook KVM, - can't nail resolution

[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 16:07:22 -0500
Styma, Robert E (Robert) wrote:

> My desire now is to find the detected EDID and hardcode it as a kernel 
> parameter as was suggested when the thread first started.

The /var/log/Xorg.0.log file usually has detected EDID info, so
you might find what you need there when the monitor is directly
connected. Or perhaps if you add debug options to the X server
you can bump up the verbosity of the log if the one you get
now doesn't have enough (might be easier to boot runlevel 3 and
use startx to pass extra options to server).
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Fedora 13 Installation frustrations

[Leslie S Satenstein]

I had to let you know how I passed a night of no sleep to install Fedora13.

My Configuration.
disk hd0,  XP on 1st half,  Fedora12 on second.  
Disk hd1  W7 on 1st half,  storage (fat32) on second half

CPU memory 4 gigs, ATI video card, and Intel e7300 dual core cpu. DVD Burner, 
etc.

I decided to wipe clean the F12 installation, or shall we say that the last set 
of updates prior to Fedora 13 decided that for me --- Gnome errors gallore, 
making F13 installation imperative

Try 1
I used wgetc -c  link to F13-64bit to download.  I burned the DVD and in 
bootking from the DVD, the disk check utility indicated an error. -- Scrap the 
DVD and the downloaded file.

Try2,
Same as Try1, except that it was a new wgetc -c and a new burned DVD.  Again 
errors reported.

Try 3,  Forget Wgetc as the F13 image on the host must probably be damaged.  I 
used bit-torrent to download and burn the DVD.  The DVD passed the test, no 
errors.

Step 2 (start the installlation, tell Anaconda to reuse the linux space on hd0, 
I asked for customize now, selected what I wanted, and also chose to include 
two repros
update fedora64 and Fedora64 (not the exact names). I started at 10pm, it was 
now 1am, and there were 2500 or so files to install.  I went away after it 
started, and when I returned at 2am,  it had crashed with a "Unable to install 
Samba" error. 

Step 3,  restart, select graphics mode only, select customize later, and did 
not include the extra repros.  Result, Anaconda missed including the XP system 
on hd0, but pointed to HD1 and the W7 system.     Back to modify grub.conf  to 
match the F12 values.

At this time, it was 4am in the morning, I shutdown to catch some sleep and 
left for work at 8:30am.   Fedora13 is installed, but incomplete for my needs. 
Today I catch up.

Leslie
PS total time 6 hrs, from 10 pm to 4am.  
 

 
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Ed Greshko]

On 05/27/2010 04:58 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:42 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
>   
>> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:31 PM, � Duffy wrote:
>> 
>>> As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
>>> required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
>>> cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
>>> actually obtaining Fedora.
>>>   
>> Jigdo, maybe but calling torrents as a niche method is probably incorrect.
>> 
> That is why I said, "in some cases."
>
> Adding a direct link to torrents is costly because there's enough users
> who do not know what a torrent is that you have to then also create and
> somehow fit or work in an explanation of what they are and potentially
> link to a tutorial that explains how to use them...
>
>   
That is pure BS. 

If people don't know what a bittorrent is or a jigdo they will ignore
it...as long as you don't make those the primary download methods.  As
to those that know what they are...if those methods are available they
should have a place in the "Get Fedora" page.  They should not have to
hunt it down just because they are "intelligent".

http://software.opensuse.org/112/en   has a direct link to bittorrent
http://www2.mandriva.com/downloads/  has an obvious link to bittorent
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download has "Alternative
Downloads" that simply leads you to bittorrent.
http://www.debian.org/distrib/ has a direct link to bottorrent
http://www.slackware.com/getslack/  has a direct link to bittorrent
http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=59  has a direct link to a torrent

I could go on.

By your logic...anyone with knowledge of a torrent would go to the "get
fedora" page, find there is no torrent for fedora and choose a different
distro and everyone that visited the pages above would flock to fedora
when they encountered the dreaded "bittorrent" links.

If you spent half as much time designing a decent download page as
you've spent defending a poor decision you wouldn't be hearing grief.




-- 
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poor to protect them from each other. 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段



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Re: root password prompts

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 02:27 PM, Tom H wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Tom Horsley  wrote:
>> I have seen claims on this list that the root password is
>> remembered for a small amount of time so you don't keep
>> getting asked. That has never worked for me, but I assumed
>> it was just because I was running a non-standard session
>> and was missing something.
>>
>> Today I was running system-config-printer to install all
>> the various printers around here at work on a freshly
>> installed fedora 13 system running as a brand new user
>> in a standard gnome session.
>>
>> I get three or four root password prompts for each
>> separate printer install.
>>
>> Where is this mythical setting to make it
>> remember the password?
>
> I have never seen "su" remember a password but "sudo" does. You can
> set the time-period for which the password is remembered with
> "timestamp_timeout" in "/etc/sudoers". The default might vary from
> distribution to distribution.

I believe what the OP is asking is the gui utility that remembers the 
authentication after a user enters the root password after the prompt by 
a gui dialogue.

As far as I know this facility used to be offered by policykit and the 
way to set this was to use polkit-gnome-authorization. But that 
particular utility has been unavailable since Fedora 12.

In short you are better off configuring sudo and calling 
system-config-printer from the terminal like this,

$ sudo system-config-printer

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 21:55 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> I am afraid that is not is a useful comment.  It doesn't say anything
> specific.  If the goal is to provide feedback to help improve the
> design,  it requires a mutual discussion rather than just shouting
> something rude from the roof tops.

Ya, I know.  My comment was ass, but it's true!  Also, I was in a rush
when I wrote it, so it would have been better to just wait until I
wasn't.  Live and learn...

My issue with the new design is essentially that I could not figure out
where to grab the torrents from, or how to download the checksum files,
or how to grab individual CD ISOs, orI was lost for 5 minutes before
I even figured out how to download the x86_64 DVD image!

The new design will definitely make it easier for newbies to find Fedora
CD images.

I just need a link to the torrents and checksums.

Regards,

Ranbir

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Alan Evans]

2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
>> That would have at least kept me (and probably many others) from
>> scanning the page over and over again for ten minutes looking for what
>> I just knew must be there.
>
> No, it wouldn't.

Yes, it would. I would have found the link that I was expecting to be
on the page after following the link that said, and I'm quoting, "View
full list of options for getting Fedora ..." Not a very full list,
after all. Notwithstanding that there are many other options that
other people may have been searching for, my statement was completely
true.

For my part, I'm just a user. I merely stated what I was expecting and
how my expectations were not met. You can take that any way you like,
and apparently you've chosen to take offence that a user would expect
something that you didn't deliver. I wish I could say I'm sorry, but
I'm more perplexed.

Whatever.

I thought that the fedoraproject.org web site was geared toward users.
Your screed tells me that fedoraproject.org is actually geared toward
Windows and Mac users who want to try Fedora. Current users such as
myself are expected to already know that we should just go eat
Google-cake. Certainly, fedoraproject.org is not where we should be
going for answers.

Apparently, a class of users looking to update their Fedora
installations by a heretofore encouraged and commonly available path
are not, in fact, customers from the perspective of the
Every-Way-To-Get-Fedora web page. Good information, that. I'll make a
note of it.

I'm unlikely to be following many developer-oriented lists, in any
case. Like I said, I'm just a user.

-Alan
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Re: Linking two files together

[Robert Nichols]

On 05/26/2010 01:41 PM, Rector, David wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for the tip. I think there may be something here I can use.
>
> However, I am not as familiar with pipes and streams as I would like
> to be.
>
> Is it possible to use cat so the multiple files will pipe to something
> that my app can open. E.g. my apps don't operate on the standard input
> stream, they need to open the file, then scan back and forth within the file.

Yes.  You can use:

cat file1 file2 file3 | my_app /dev/stdin

or:

my_app <(cat file1 file2 file3)

In the latter case, the argument actually passed to my_app is of
the form "/dev/fd/63".  bash sets up the pipe on an arbitrary
file descriptor and passes the corresponding /dev/fd/* argument.

In either case, caveats about seeking in a pipe apply.

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 Do NOT delete it.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:57 PM, � Duffy wrote:
> Where would someone get to the mirrors then? Oh just add one more link
> right? Okay. How about boot.fedoraproject.org or downloading a boot iso?
> Oh, just one or two more links. Okay. How about adding a link to KDE on
> the front page? Ooh, that's one more link. Okay. Oh, and someone else
> was complaining on a forum that I was reading yesterday that we don't
> have a link to download the LiveUSB creator. So we'll have to add a link
> for that, and a link for the instructions on how to use LiveUSB creator.
> Oh, but there's two versions of liveusb creator, one for Windows, one
> for *nix, okay then, I guess two links for that
>
> [ I could do this all day. ]

I understand your concern and see the merit in keeping the default 
get-fedora page simple, but I fail to see how that implies no page 
linking to either of these pages. (or maybe I didn't look long enough)

http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/
http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/spins/

The only way to get there is to use a search engine. Do you think that 
is reasonable?

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Re: Fedora 12, Xorg, and Apex Outlook KVM, - can't nail resolution

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 16:07:22 -0500,
  "Styma, Robert E (Robert)"  wrote:
> 
> My desire now is to find the detected EDID and hardcode it as a kernel 
> parameter as was suggested when the thread first started.

A hex version of the EDID should be recorded in /var/log/Xorg.0.log when you
boot with the monitor connected directly. I don't know whether or not that
format is useful for supplying as a kernel option.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Suvayu Ali
 wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:31 PM, � Duffy wrote:
>> As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
>> required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
>> cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
>> actually obtaining Fedora.
>
> Jigdo, maybe but calling torrents as a niche method is probably incorrect.

I thought torrent was precisely invented for this kind of purpose. I
also held the opinion that torrent is by far the number one method of
getting Fedora, or any other Linux distro for that matter. It offers
the most efficient downloading speed while keeping the main servers
off too much load. Also, Windows users shouldn't be underestimated for
their knowledge of using torrent.

Removing the torrent from the download page is just a poor design
decision, IMHO. People who get scared off by technical terminology on
a website offering a Linux operating system should probably be better
off using Windows or OS X anyway. It doesn't make much sense to reduce
available choices and functionality of a website in order to fit to a
newbie frame of mind.

Following the logic of this kind of design, why does Fedora have a
download page at all? Anyone can use google, at least anyone who
aspires to try and install a whole operating system on a computer. Why
bother offering anything on the website explicitly? ;-)

:-)
Marko
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Re: root password prompts

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:59 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
> >> and makes a new entry.
> > 
> > IOW it remembers it by logging it. How else would it do it except by
> > recording it in a file?
> > 
> > poc
> > 
> 
>   It is an suid program - it doesn't need a password unless the policy
> chooses to ask for one.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I meant by "it" in the above is not
the password itself (which of course it doesn't record, that would be
insane) but the fact that the user authenticated at a certain time.

poc

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:45 -0400, Carroll Grigsby wrote:
> I'm reminded of Monty Python's Cheese Shop skit, with you playing the
> role of the shopkeeper.

Sure, in that:

- We must have just about as many particular versions of Fedora to
download as there are varieties of cheese...

- Most folks who eat cheese (around these parts, at least) know cheddar,
mozzarella, swiss, parmesean, monterrey jack, and American and that's
about it. The majority of cheese varieties are simply not widely known.
[1]

- You shouldn't need to be a cheese connoisseur or need to take a class
in being one to eat a piece of cheese nor should you be a system
administrator or technical whiz to be able to download and enjoy Fedora.

Hopefully it doesn't relate in the

- 'i'm going to shoot you in the head' comment

- 'senseless waste of human life' comment


~m

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cheeses

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> OTOH, one must be subscribed to said lists in order to participate. 

That's right! If you want to participate in Fedora, you need to
subscribe to the mailing lists where projects are happening!

>  Those of 
> us who have varied interests are generally subscribed to more mailing lists 
> than we can handle by making timely, on topic and expert responses to the 
> list we are on.  To demand that we subscribe to YAML just to participate in 
> your often petty squabbles over the color themes etc, is to be blunt, asking 
> for way too much.  My present folder count in kmail is 49, more than screen 
> height

I'm subscribed to some 100+ open source mailing lists. I understand what
you're saying, but I do not understand how that impacts the fact that 3
mailing lists were involved in the design discussion. What do you
propose I should have done? Send the designs to every single Fedora
list? Do you see how that is not feasible nor sustainable?

> We assume there are intelligent people doing this, and at times methinks we 
> assume too much. 

Thanks! Underhanded barbs about my intelligence rock! I'm so excited
right now, I can't wait to read the rest of your email! What new and
exciting insults might it bring?

>  So when you go live with a brand new page that seems poorly 
> organized,

Thank you for using the word "seems" there.

>  there really should have been links to it made available on this 
> list, say 2 weeks prior,

2 weeks prior is too late. String freeze. There's a lot of folks who use
Fedora who don't speak English.

>  so we could at least pull a screen shot. and fuss if 
> it really is that bad.  Me, I googled for it, and hit the right page on the 
> first try, but that was only because someone already suggested that was it.
> 
> >> The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
> >> galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).
> >
> >I think you can agree with me that comparison is unfair as the designs
> >were actively discussed across many public forums widely known to and
> >read by Fedora contributors, as I already outlined for you. Please be
> >reasonable.
> 
> But not the users forum/mailing list, so you are carrying this on in a 
> relative vacuum in terms of the number of 'users' you are using.

I'm sorry, but Fedora Planet is not a vacuum. Nor is Fedora Weekly News.
Are folks on this list really unaware of those forums?
> 
> IMO, that is no ones fault but your own...

Huh?

> >> > I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
> >> > see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
> >> > and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
> >> > the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
> >> > bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
> >> > interested in helping, only complaining.
> >>
> >> If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
> >> controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
> >> either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
> >> the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
> >> hits something :-).
> >
> >As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
> >required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
> >cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
> >actually obtaining Fedora. Furthermore, these methods have not been
> >taken away, they have simply been de-listed from the main download
> >pages. They still exist, and the folks who desire those alternative
> >methods I should hope, being smart enough to understand how to install
> >and run a torrent client, are also completely capable of Googling the
> >extremely obvious links (e.g., torrent.fedoraproject.org) should they
> >not already be aware of them.
> >
> >Your analogy is completely insufficient and ill-fitting for this
> >scenario. A more accurate analogy to Ford removing the brakes from a car
> >design would be Fedora removing the installer from the distro.
> 
> So is yours, from the users viewpoint.  Or is that not understandable?

I didn't make an analogy.

What user? Many, many different types of users use Fedora for different
things in different ways. Please don't assume everyone is like you or
that Fedora only caters to users like you.
> 
> >> Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
> >> when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
> >> is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
> >> what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
> >> you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
> >> head them off.
> >
> >Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to
> >contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If
> >you're not go

RE: F12->F13 DVD Upgrade fails

[Styma, Robert E (Robert)]

 

> However nothing in that directory is labelled as an .iso image file. The
> README talks about "boot.iso" but there is no such file on the entire
> DVD (I verified with "find").

You can find a copy of the boot.iso here, or at whatever mirror you prefer.

http://mirrors.kernel.org/fedora/releases/13/Fedora/i386/os/images/boot.iso

Bob S.
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Re: Linking two files together

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 07:30 +1000, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> Can you elaborate on why you want this as opposed to to a hard link?
> i.e. what specific facility a hard link does _not_ give you that your
> proposal would?

A hard link just gives a specific file an extra name. The OP wants a
single name to refer to the concatenated contents of several files,
without having to copy them.

poc

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Re: Linking two files together

[Cameron Simpson]

On 26May2010 10:16, Rector, David  wrote:
| I have studied various filesystems, and am fairly familiar with how they are 
structured. However, I am currently stuck on trying to do what seems like a 
simple thing.
| 
| I would like to join two files together without having to physically copy 
bytes (i.e. I have vary large files, so I don't want to use 'cat'). It seems to 
me that it should be possible to simply modify the file entry in the filesystem 
such that the last inode of the first file points to the first inode of the 
second file. I guess this is similar to a "hard link", but used to join files 
rather than simply have another pointer to one file.

Can you elaborate on why you want this as opposed to to a hard link?
i.e. what specific facility a hard link does _not_ give you that your
proposal would?

It looks like you're asking for something that would behave from the
outside just like a hard link but not be one on the inside.
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that someday I can give the "Thermonuclear Protection" a little thermonuclear
testing.- Phillip J. Birmingham 
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RE: Fedora 12, Xorg, and Apex Outlook KVM, - can't nail resolution

[Styma, Robert E (Robert)]

> 
> > It appears that Xorg has gotten so good at protecting me from myself that
> > when it comes up with the wrong answer, I am just stuck.  Maybe a different
> > 8 port KVM might produce better results, but I am not ready to buy another.

> It would be nice if old hardware was handled better, 
> but risking destroying
> hardware doesn't seem like a good solution.

> I have been using xorg.conf files to handle my old monitors that don't do
> EDID. This isn't a good solution, but once you get them set up you don't
> need to mess with any more.

I agree with you in principle.  However, my monitor is not that old, it is
Mitsubishi 21" CRT and it is detected just fine when I plug it right into
the computer.  When I run it through the KVM switch, something gets lost and
The monitor is not detected correctly.  If I plug the monitor indirectly, 
boot the machine, and then put the cables back in the KVM, it is fine until
the next reboot.  I have tried various tricks to capture the Xorg.conf file
>From the direct plug in and then put them back.  There were also various
options suggested for FC12 to disable some of the monitor scanning, but
they were ineffective.

My desire now is to find the detected EDID and hardcode it as a kernel 
parameter as was suggested when the thread first started.

PS. I do appreciate your time Bruno.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[David Boles]

On 5/26/2010 4:22 PM, Alan Evans wrote:
> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
>> The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the design.
>> The assumption was that if someone understands how to use bittorrent,
>> jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable of making use of a
>> search engine to find them.
> 
> I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could* use
> a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that didn't
> deliberately exclude them.
> 
>> Unsurprisingly, the first links for each
>> 'fedora torrent', 'fedora mirrors', and 'fedora jigdo' on Google direct
>> you to the correct location. However, for those users who don't
>> understand what those things are and don't need them, the new design is
>> a vast improvement in preventing them from having to navigate around a
>> cluttered grid of links full of complicated jargon in order to get
>> Fedora. A search engine would not be of any use in solving their
>> problem.
> 
> I'm sure that I'm not the only one who wasted a considerable amount of
> time looking for options that, although quite reasonably expected to
> be, simply weren't there. The fact that a search engine is available
> doesn't imply that it's my first choice, especially when I think I
> know where to find my answers without it.



You did not see this? A *Whole* Page* of torrent links for deltaiso
downloads?

http://marc.info/?l=fedora-test-list&m=127473883718662&w=2


-- 


  David



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Re: root password prompts

[Tom H]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Tom Horsley  wrote:
> I have seen claims on this list that the root password is
> remembered for a small amount of time so you don't keep
> getting asked. That has never worked for me, but I assumed
> it was just because I was running a non-standard session
> and was missing something.
>
> Today I was running system-config-printer to install all
> the various printers around here at work on a freshly
> installed fedora 13 system running as a brand new user
> in a standard gnome session.
>
> I get three or four root password prompts for each
> separate printer install.
>
> Where is this mythical setting to make it
> remember the password?

I have never seen "su" remember a password but "sudo" does. You can
set the time-period for which the password is remembered with
"timestamp_timeout" in "/etc/sudoers". The default might vary from
distribution to distribution.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:09 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
>>
>> Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> > There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
>> > [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
>> > planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on
>> > Fedora Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
>> > logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.
>>
>> But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
>> the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.
>
>Unfortunately, mailing lists aren't the best communication medium for
>sharing designs and getting feedback on them. It's pretty much a
>nightmare dealing with flames and trying to sift through hundreds of
>mails to get the few nuggets of useful feedback typically procured
>through a mailing list-based feedback process.
>
>I do think it would be hard to argue announcing and actively discussing
>the design on three separate Fedora mailing lists was not sufficient
>enough mailing list exposure!
>
OTOH, one must be subscribed to said lists in order to participate.  Those of 
us who have varied interests are generally subscribed to more mailing lists 
than we can handle by making timely, on topic and expert responses to the 
list we are on.  To demand that we subscribe to YAML just to participate in 
your often petty squabbles over the color themes etc, is to be blunt, asking 
for way too much.  My present folder count in kmail is 49, more than screen 
height

We assume there are intelligent people doing this, and at times methinks we 
assume too much.  So when you go live with a brand new page that seems poorly 
organized, there really should have been links to it made available on this 
list, say 2 weeks prior, so we could at least pull a screen shot. and fuss if 
it really is that bad.  Me, I googled for it, and hit the right page on the 
first try, but that was only because someone already suggested that was it.

>> The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
>> galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).
>
>I think you can agree with me that comparison is unfair as the designs
>were actively discussed across many public forums widely known to and
>read by Fedora contributors, as I already outlined for you. Please be
>reasonable.

But not the users forum/mailing list, so you are carrying this on in a 
relative vacuum in terms of the number of 'users' you are using.

IMO, that is no ones fault but your own...

>> > I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
>> > see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
>> > and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
>> > the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
>> > bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
>> > interested in helping, only complaining.
>>
>> If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
>> controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
>> either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
>> the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
>> hits something :-).
>
>As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
>required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
>cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
>actually obtaining Fedora. Furthermore, these methods have not been
>taken away, they have simply been de-listed from the main download
>pages. They still exist, and the folks who desire those alternative
>methods I should hope, being smart enough to understand how to install
>and run a torrent client, are also completely capable of Googling the
>extremely obvious links (e.g., torrent.fedoraproject.org) should they
>not already be aware of them.
>
>Your analogy is completely insufficient and ill-fitting for this
>scenario. A more accurate analogy to Ford removing the brakes from a car
>design would be Fedora removing the installer from the distro.

So is yours, from the users viewpoint.  Or is that not understandable?

>> Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
>> when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
>> is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
>> what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
>> you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
>> head them off.
>
>Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to
>contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If
>you're not going to contribute, don't be rude to those who did. No one
>is asking you to guess, I am just trying to let you know that you could
>have participated if you really cared to and pointe

Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Tom Horsley wrote:
>On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
>
>Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
>> [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
>> planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on Fedora
>> Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
>> logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.
>
>But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
>the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.
>
+10

>The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
>galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).

;-)
>
>> I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
>> see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
>> and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
>> the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
>> bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
>> interested in helping, only complaining.
>
>If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
>controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
>either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
>the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
>hits something :-).
>
>Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
>when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
>is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
>what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
>you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
>head them off.
>
+100

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: root password prompts

[Genes MailLists]

>> and makes a new entry.
> 
> IOW it remembers it by logging it. How else would it do it except by
> recording it in a file?
> 
> poc
> 

  It is an suid program - it doesn't need a password unless the policy
chooses to ask for one.
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:42 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:31 PM, � Duffy wrote:
> > As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
> > required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
> > cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
> > actually obtaining Fedora.
> 
> Jigdo, maybe but calling torrents as a niche method is probably incorrect.

That is why I said, "in some cases."

Adding a direct link to torrents is costly because there's enough users
who do not know what a torrent is that you have to then also create and
somehow fit or work in an explanation of what they are and potentially
link to a tutorial that explains how to use them...

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:42 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> You seem to think that the only alternative to completely excluding
> the more technical options is to scatter incomprehensible jargon all
> over the page. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.

I came to this conclusion after going through some 40-odd mockups of the
current page trying ot prevent it from looking like either a grid of
links (which is what the get-fedora-all page is, BTW) or a page full of
incomprehensible jargon, yes.

You are most certainly more than welcome to try your hand at mixing up
the design if you feel you can do better! All the source files to the
mockups are available and they were made with Inkscape which is included
in Fedora.

The devil is certainly in the details though. There's a lot of problems
to be solved in the pages, the least of which is slapping on a torrent
link. Adding one link causes reverberating effects on the entirety of
the page, and most certainly does not scale. If I added 'just one more
link' to that page, for every 'just one more link' page the websites
team has gotten, we would be back to a page that is a confusing grid of
links.

Seriously. You've gotta trust me on this, if you don't want to spend the
time it takes to read through all of the design documents and mailing
list threads and history of the design. 

> How about something like this at the bottom of the page?:
> 
> "Users looking for the Torrent downloads should go [link]here[/link].
> If you don't know what a Torrent is then it's not what you want."

Where would someone get to the mirrors then? Oh just add one more link
right? Okay. How about boot.fedoraproject.org or downloading a boot iso?
Oh, just one or two more links. Okay. How about adding a link to KDE on
the front page? Ooh, that's one more link. Okay. Oh, and someone else
was complaining on a forum that I was reading yesterday that we don't
have a link to download the LiveUSB creator. So we'll have to add a link
for that, and a link for the instructions on how to use LiveUSB creator.
Oh, but there's two versions of liveusb creator, one for Windows, one
for *nix, okay then, I guess two links for that

[ I could do this all day. ]
> 
> That would have at least kept me (and probably many others) from
> scanning the page over and over again for ten minutes looking for what
> I just knew must be there.

No, it wouldn't. Do you know why? Because there are tens if not hundreds
of thousands of people who go to that page, and they aren't all looking
for the same thing. Maybe you and 300 other people were looking for a
torrent link. But maybe 10,000 people were just looking to simply
download the default live image. Not to mention the other thousands of
people who were probably looking for other specific things [ x86 |
x86_64 | ppc | sparc | arm | gnome | kde | lxde | xfce | $NAME spin |
$LOCATION mirror | torrent | cds | dvd | live | boot img | ... ... ...

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Carroll Grigsby]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 16:32:35 -0400
Máirín Duffy  wrote:

> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:22 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> > 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> > > The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the
> > > design. The assumption was that if someone understands how to use
> > > bittorrent, jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable
> > > of making use of a search engine to find them.
> > 
> > I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could*
> > use a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that
> > didn't deliberately exclude them.
> 
> How about the silent group of folks who looked at the old Fedora get
> page, had no clue what half of the jargon on the page went, and then
> browsed away to look at another distro or worse just stuck with
> Windows or OS X?
> 
> ~m
> 

I'm reminded of Monty Python's Cheese Shop skit, with you playing the
role of the shopkeeper.

-- cmg
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Suvayu Ali]

On Wednesday 26 May 2010 01:31 PM, � Duffy wrote:
> As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
> required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
> cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
> actually obtaining Fedora.

Jigdo, maybe but calling torrents as a niche method is probably incorrect.

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Alan Evans]

2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:22 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
>> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
>> > The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the design.
>> > The assumption was that if someone understands how to use bittorrent,
>> > jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable of making use of a
>> > search engine to find them.
>>
>> I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could* use
>> a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that didn't
>> deliberately exclude them.
>
> How about the silent group of folks who looked at the old Fedora get
> page, had no clue what half of the jargon on the page went, and then
> browsed away to look at another distro or worse just stuck with Windows
> or OS X?

You seem to think that the only alternative to completely excluding
the more technical options is to scatter incomprehensible jargon all
over the page. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.

How about something like this at the bottom of the page?:

"Users looking for the Torrent downloads should go [link]here[/link].
If you don't know what a Torrent is then it's not what you want."

That would have at least kept me (and probably many others) from
scanning the page over and over again for ten minutes looking for what
I just knew must be there.

-Alan
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Re: usbmuxd

[Tom London]

> Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:48:49 -0500
> From: Steven Stern 
> Subject: usbmuxd
> To: Community support for Fedora users 
> Message-ID: <4bfd5f01.1070...@sterndata.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>
> Right after the upgrade, F13 saw my iPhone and offered to open Rhythmbox
> or Nautilus.
>
> Following subsequent upgrades, it just ignores the phone entirely
> although it sees it appear on the USB bus.
>
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: new high speed USB device
> using ehci_hcd and address 5
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: New USB device found,
> idVendor=05ac, idProduct=1292
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: New USB device strings:
> Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: Product: iPhone
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: Manufacturer: Apple Inc.
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk kernel: usb 1-8.1: SerialNumber:
> 989afbf01f7d933072b63d00d0fb5c87544cad64
> May 26 12:37:35 sds-desk usbmuxd[2500]: [0] Dropping privileges failed,
> check if user 'usbmux' exists!
>
> So, as root, I just typed "usbmuxd" and now Fedora sees the iPhone.  It
> appears that usbmuxd is misconfigured so it fails to start unless
> started as root.
>
> --
> -- Steve
>
Sounds like: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=593494

Suggest you jump on that .

tom
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[David Boles]

On 5/26/2010 4:31 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:



Máirín

> Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to
> contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If
> you're not going to contribute, don't be rude to those who did. No one
> is asking you to guess, I am just trying to let you know that you could
> have participated if you really cared to and pointed out your concern
> much earlier. It's all done out in the open!
> 
> I can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess what users are going to
> think of the designs I create to help improve things for them, but I can
> most certainly post those designs to multiple mailing lists, blogs, and
> other public community discussions forums to gather as much feedback as
> I can from them. And I do.


T followed the work for most of the many months and I think that the
pages are clear, well laid out, and easy to follow.

I have spent more time reading this thread than it took me to hunt for
and find the information that you are being accused of hiding.  :-)

So here is a 'thank you' for what I consider a job well done.
-- 


  David



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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 13:22 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> 2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> > The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the design.
> > The assumption was that if someone understands how to use bittorrent,
> > jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable of making use of a
> > search engine to find them.
> 
> I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could* use
> a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that didn't
> deliberately exclude them.

How about the silent group of folks who looked at the old Fedora get
page, had no clue what half of the jargon on the page went, and then
browsed away to look at another distro or worse just stuck with Windows
or OS X?

~m

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:09 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
> Máirín Duffy wrote:
> 
> > There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
> > [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
> > planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on Fedora
> > Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
> > logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.
> 
> But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
> the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.

Unfortunately, mailing lists aren't the best communication medium for
sharing designs and getting feedback on them. It's pretty much a
nightmare dealing with flames and trying to sift through hundreds of
mails to get the few nuggets of useful feedback typically procured
through a mailing list-based feedback process.

I do think it would be hard to argue announcing and actively discussing
the design on three separate Fedora mailing lists was not sufficient
enough mailing list exposure! 

> The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
> galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).

I think you can agree with me that comparison is unfair as the designs
were actively discussed across many public forums widely known to and
read by Fedora contributors, as I already outlined for you. Please be
reasonable.
> 
> > I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
> > see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
> > and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
> > the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
> > bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
> > interested in helping, only complaining.
> 
> If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
> controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
> either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
> the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
> hits something :-).

As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not
required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some
cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for
actually obtaining Fedora. Furthermore, these methods have not been
taken away, they have simply been de-listed from the main download
pages. They still exist, and the folks who desire those alternative
methods I should hope, being smart enough to understand how to install
and run a torrent client, are also completely capable of Googling the
extremely obvious links (e.g., torrent.fedoraproject.org) should they
not already be aware of them.

Your analogy is completely insufficient and ill-fitting for this
scenario. A more accurate analogy to Ford removing the brakes from a car
design would be Fedora removing the installer from the distro.

> Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
> when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
> is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
> what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
> you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
> head them off.

Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to
contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If
you're not going to contribute, don't be rude to those who did. No one
is asking you to guess, I am just trying to let you know that you could
have participated if you really cared to and pointed out your concern
much earlier. It's all done out in the open!

I can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess what users are going to
think of the designs I create to help improve things for them, but I can
most certainly post those designs to multiple mailing lists, blogs, and
other public community discussions forums to gather as much feedback as
I can from them. And I do.

~m

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Re: root password prompts

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 14:48 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > AFAIK this is a function of 'sudo'. It asks you the first time and
> > remembers for a few minutes after. I've never seen this behaviour
> other
> > than with sudo.
> 
> Umm, perhaps you mean su. The sudo command does not prompt
> for the root password.

No, I mean sudo. In the default config it prompts for the user's
password.

> It doesn't "remember the password". It makes an entry in a log
> with the epoch. When next invoked, sudo checks the latest entry,
> and if less than a certain amount of time has elapsed, simply
> goes on. If more than the time limit has elapsed, then it prompts,
> and makes a new entry.

IOW it remembers it by logging it. How else would it do it except by
recording it in a file?

poc

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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Alan Evans]

2010/5/26 Máirín Duffy :
> The links you referenced were removed quite explicitly in the design.
> The assumption was that if someone understands how to use bittorrent,
> jigdo, and mirror lists, they are more than capable of making use of a
> search engine to find them.

I hope that this thread is a demonstration that folks who *could* use
a search engine may have been well-served by a page design that didn't
deliberately exclude them.

> Unsurprisingly, the first links for each
> 'fedora torrent', 'fedora mirrors', and 'fedora jigdo' on Google direct
> you to the correct location. However, for those users who don't
> understand what those things are and don't need them, the new design is
> a vast improvement in preventing them from having to navigate around a
> cluttered grid of links full of complicated jargon in order to get
> Fedora. A search engine would not be of any use in solving their
> problem.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one who wasted a considerable amount of
time looking for options that, although quite reasonably expected to
be, simply weren't there. The fact that a search engine is available
doesn't imply that it's my first choice, especially when I think I
know where to find my answers without it.

-Alan
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Re: root password prompts

[Mike McCarty]

Mike McCarty wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 14:39 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> Where is this mythical setting to make it
>>> remember the password?
>> AFAIK this is a function of 'sudo'. It asks you the first time and
>> remembers for a few minutes after. I've never seen this behaviour other
>> than with sudo.
> 
> Umm, perhaps you mean su. The sudo command does not prompt
> for the root password.

I guess this is too brief. The sudo command does not prompt
for the root password. The su command may prompt for the
root password, and always does if it ever does, unless being
invoked by root. The sudo command does make entries in a log
which it checks, and if it prompts for the user password (not
root, even if root invokes it) then it does not do so if
invoked again by the same user within a certain time period.

I hope that isn't too confusing. I'm sure man su and man sudo
will help untangle it all.

Mike
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Rocket Fedora 13 media artwork

[Valent Turkovic]

http://fcoremix.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/rockets-artwork-for-fedora-13-media/

I remixed some Fedora graphics to create new CD/DVD labels.

Hope you enjoy them,
Cheers!

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Re: Linux vs. Vision Tek Radeon HD3650

[Michael Hennebry]

On Tue, 25 May 2010, suvayu ali wrote:


On 25 May 2010 09:03, Brian A. Seklecki  wrote:

I don't see anything with a remotely similar name.
Does that mean that linux does not support any card remotely like it?


soundwave:/home/bseklecki$ grep HD /var/log/Xorg.0.log|grep 3650
       ATI Radeon HD 3600 Series, ATI Radeon HD 3650 AGP,
       ATI Radeon HD 3600 PRO, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650,


Clearly the radeonhd(4) man page needs to be updated.



AFAIK Radeohd has been abandoned. You should switch to radeon.


The bottom line is that I can replace my
video card and expect the new one to work.

Thanks much.

--
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
"SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then."   --   John Woods-- 
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Re: Regarding Get Fedora page

[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400
Máirín Duffy wrote:

> There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora
> [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog
> planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on Fedora
> Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list,
> logistics mailing list, and design mailing list.

But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where
the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out.

The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the
galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-).

> I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can
> see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive
> and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where
> the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have
> bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really
> interested in helping, only complaining.

If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned
controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that
either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove
the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it
hits something :-).

Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available
when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams
is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess
what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so
you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and
head them off.
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