Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Fred Smith]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:59:43AM +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 2020-06-08 07:45, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> > On 6/7/20 2:52 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >> On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:07 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> >>> An inode is the chunk of metadata in the filesystem that describes a
> >>> file.  You could think of it simply as a directory entry, but it's more
> >>> complicated than that.
> >>
> >> Sorry to be That Guy, but an inode is definitely not a directory entry,
> >> it's something a directory entry points to.
> >
> > *I* know what an inode is but I was trying to give a non-technical user a 
> > simpler idea of it since he really doesn't need the details.  I also pretty 
> > clearly said it wasn't really a directory entry.  My first description was 
> > correct and then I gave a simpler concept that was good enough.
> 
> I knew what you meant.  :-)
> 
> Sometimes I feel it is unfortunate that the term "directory" is used when a 
> "folder" would seem better
> in some cases.

they were called directories long before Apple (or was it MS?) decided
to "simplify" it by calling them folders.


-- 
 Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
 heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
-- Matthew 7:21 (niv) -
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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-06-08 07:45, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 6/7/20 2:52 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:07 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
>>> An inode is the chunk of metadata in the filesystem that describes a
>>> file.  You could think of it simply as a directory entry, but it's more
>>> complicated than that.
>>
>> Sorry to be That Guy, but an inode is definitely not a directory entry,
>> it's something a directory entry points to.
>
> *I* know what an inode is but I was trying to give a non-technical user a 
> simpler idea of it since he really doesn't need the details.  I also pretty 
> clearly said it wasn't really a directory entry.  My first description was 
> correct and then I gave a simpler concept that was good enough.

I knew what you meant.  :-)

Sometimes I feel it is unfortunate that the term "directory" is used when a 
"folder" would seem better
in some cases.

When you walk into a building you see a sign on the wall with a list of 
companies and what floor they
can be found on.  That sign is often called a "directory" and an "entry" on the 
directory indicates where the
company is located.

From that point of view an inode is an entry in a "directory" (inode table) 
with pointers (and other info) to
where a file or "folder" can be found in storage.

-- 
The key to getting good answers is to ask good questions.
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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 6/7/20 2:52 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:07 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:

An inode is the chunk of metadata in the filesystem that describes a
file.  You could think of it simply as a directory entry, but it's more
complicated than that.


Sorry to be That Guy, but an inode is definitely not a directory entry,
it's something a directory entry points to.


*I* know what an inode is but I was trying to give a non-technical user 
a simpler idea of it since he really doesn't need the details.  I also 
pretty clearly said it wasn't really a directory entry.  My first 
description was correct and then I gave a simpler concept that was good 
enough.

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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:07 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> An inode is the chunk of metadata in the filesystem that describes a 
> file.  You could think of it simply as a directory entry, but it's more 
> complicated than that.

Sorry to be That Guy, but an inode is definitely not a directory entry,
it's something a directory entry points to.

poc
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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 6/7/20 10:42 AM, Beartooth wrote:


On a System76 PC several years old, running F32 fully updated (not
Ubuntu), I see the following:

$ df -h
FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
devtmpfs  7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev
tmpfs 7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 7.8G  1.6M  7.8G   1% /run
/dev/mapper/fedora-root49G   16G   31G  35% /
tmpfs 7.8G   60K  7.8G   1% /tmp
/dev/mapper/fedora-home52G   20G   30G  40% /home
/dev/sda1 976M  252M  658M  28% /boot
/dev/mapper/backup_vg-backup  1.8T  174M  1.7T   1% /.snapshots
tmpfs 1.6G   60K  1.6G   1% /run/user/65536
bash-5.0$

Going into the GUI, right clicking and choosing priorities, I see:


What gui?  Right-clicking on what?


  Link to block device (inode/blockdevice)


Yes, it's a block device.


So I searched inode, but got over my head in no time. Searching
snapshot was a little more comprehensible, but using what I think it told
me would demand knowledge I lack. I also tried blockdevice, and that
*really* got me into a jungle of jargon.


An inode is the chunk of metadata in the filesystem that describes a 
file.  You could think of it simply as a directory entry, but it's more 
complicated than that.  A block device is storage that accesses data in 
chunks.  For example, hard drives can only access data in chunks of 512 
bytes.  You can't directly access a specific byte.



I'm wondering whether *any* file on an old machine could be so big
as a terabyte, let alone two. If not, what if anything is df -h telling
me about this machine as compared to my others? Anything about speed or
storage?


It's not a file.  It appears to be an lvm volume, kind of like a 
partition.  It's mounted at /.snapshot, so what does "ls -a /.snapshot" 
show you?



I also have a still broader question. Instead of keeping each
machine, as heretofore, as nearly in sync with the others, actually as
close a copy of the others, might it be reasonably safe to keep one for
constant use and the others as supporting specialists of some sort.


That's completely up to you and what you want to use it for.


To figure out what's going on with that storage, run the following four 
commands and copy their output:

vgs
lvs
fdisk -l
lsblk -t
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Re: Installing new SSD drive

[Matti Pulkkinen]

John Mellor kirjoitti 7.6.2020 klo 15.09:

Just out of interest, why do you care about wear from using swap?
What I was trying to get across is just the opposite. To quote myself 
from my previous email, "I really would not worry about putting swap on 
an SSD".


--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Beartooth]

On Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:58:57 -0700, Mike Wright wrote:

> The file is probably sparse, i.e. it is only as large as the usage
> which, at the moment, is 174M.  Enough snapshots and it could eventually
> grow to a max of 1.8T.
 
OK, even I should know, but if I do I don't remember: how, other 
than by df -h, do I get a machine to tell me its capacity? If the file 
*could* grow to 1.8T, is that some kind of software limit, or does it 
imply that the machine actually has at least 1.8T?
-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I know little (precious little!) of where up is.
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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[Samuel Sieb]

On 6/7/20 11:33 AM, Bob Goodwin wrote:
Interesting. I remember that gparted had exfat greyed out and at that 
time vfat32 looked like the best option and I used that, However I later 
simply used mkfs -t vfat.


The stick I had was a new 64 GB and originally showed 64 in my Thunar 
file manager display, now after doming what I did Thunar dis[lays it  as 
62G. I have since now dnf installed exfat-utils as you suggest so it 
should be usable when next I do that.


You can use fat32 for a larger partition than 32GB by using a larger 
cluster size.  That's ok if you're storing large files, but smaller 
files waste a lot of space.  The filesystem metadata takes some space, 
so that's why the filesystem available space will be less than the full 
size.


At one point recently I was trying to use a flash drive between Windows, 
Mac, and Fedora and I was having a lot of trouble formatting it with 
exfat so everything could read it.  I did eventually succeed, but I 
can't remember what the solution was.

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Re: Hourly Error Message of Unknown Provenance

[Samuel Sieb]

On 6/7/20 10:31 AM, R. G. Newbury wrote:
It was apparently something to do with selinux. I usually disable 
selinux as the first or second thing I do to a new install. I forgot to 
do that.


That should never be necessary.

A quick edit to /etc/selinux/config and a reboot solved removed the 
annoyance. (I cannot say 'solved the problem as I have no idea what the 
actual problem was: this was the 'sledge-hammer for walnuts' resolution.)


Now how you deciphered that that was where the error came from is just 
further evidence that far too much of system management is arcane magic: 
  Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
indistinguishable from magic.


Oddly 1) I was running as root... so *who/what* was the 'unauthorized 
sender'? and


That sounds like a likely cause right there.  Why are you doing that?
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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[Bob Goodwin]

On 2020-06-07 10:33, George N. White III wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 at 04:00, Samuel Sieb > wrote:



FAT32 is the usual portable filesystem.


FAT32 is the current usual but "future *has been*" portable
filesystem.    FAT32 doesn't allocate partial blocks, so a
direct copy of some linux directory often results in a very
large loss of free space on FAT32.  FAT32 limits you to
files under 4GB, and partitions under 32GB.   You can
create a FAT32 filesystem with smaller allocation units,
but that probably reduces the partition size limit and
many not be supported on some devices.

When moving files between linux and other systems I generally use
archives to preserve ownership and permissions, while avoiding
small file allocation problems.    The way forward is exFAT:

https://fossbytes.com/linux-5-7-microsofts-exfat-driver-code/


TL;DNR:

exFAT is a patented Microsoft filesystem that is widely used for
with removable storage on portable devices.  Microsoft released
a snapshop of the code under GPL2 in 2019.

exFAT has total filesystem size and file size limits far beyond what
most users require, and has been supported on Windows and macOS
for years.  Support for exFAT was added to the linux 5.4 kernel and
Samsung (which has exFAT for androids device) has contributed
improvements that were accepted for 5.7.

Fedora 31 and 32 don't have exFAT in the kernel:

% grep EXFAT /boot/config-`uname -r`
# CONFIG_STAGING_EXFAT_FS is not set


For now, there is a FUSE implementation in Fedora:
    % sudo dnf install exfat-utils fuse-exfat

I generally format memory sticks/cards with Windows in
case fuse-exfat does something that other devices don't
handle.  There are many 3rd party implementations;
most are only tested against Windows.

--
George N. White III

°
Interesting. I remember that gparted had exfat greyed out and at that 
time vfat32 looked like the best option and I used that, However I later 
simply used mkfs -t vfat.


The stick I had was a new 64 GB and originally showed 64 in my Thunar 
file manager display, now after doming what I did Thunar dis[lays it  as 
62G. I have since now dnf installed exfat-utils as you suggest so it 
should be usable when next I do that.


I have gained some information from this exercise and my daughter was 
able to use the flash drive with her Mac computer to install her 
embroidery program in the sewing machine, showed me the resulting art 
work ten thousand stitches later. Amazing what it does ...


Thanks to all for the help,   Bob


--
Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA
http://www.qrz.com/db/W2BOD
FEDORA-32/64bit LINUX XFCE Fastmail POP3
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Re: What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Mike Wright]

On 6/7/20 10:42 AM, Beartooth wrote:


On a System76 PC several years old, running F32 fully updated (not
Ubuntu), I see the following:

$ df -h
FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
devtmpfs  7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev
tmpfs 7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 7.8G  1.6M  7.8G   1% /run
/dev/mapper/fedora-root49G   16G   31G  35% /
tmpfs 7.8G   60K  7.8G   1% /tmp
/dev/mapper/fedora-home52G   20G   30G  40% /home
/dev/sda1 976M  252M  658M  28% /boot
/dev/mapper/backup_vg-backup  1.8T  174M  1.7T   1% /.snapshots
tmpfs 1.6G   60K  1.6G   1% /run/user/65536
bash-5.0$

Going into the GUI, right clicking and choosing priorities, I see:

  Link to block device (inode/blockdevice)

So I searched inode, but got over my head in no time. Searching
snapshot was a little more comprehensible, but using what I think it told
me would demand knowledge I lack. I also tried blockdevice, and that
*really* got me into a jungle of jargon.

I'm wondering whether *any* file on an old machine could be so big
as a terabyte, let alone two. If not, what if anything is df -h telling
me about this machine as compared to my others? Anything about speed or
storage?


The file is probably sparse, i.e. it is only as large as the usage 
which, at the moment, is 174M.  Enough snapshots and it could eventually 
grow to a max of 1.8T.




I also have a still broader question. Instead of keeping each
machine, as heretofore, as nearly in sync with the others, actually as
close a copy of the others, might it be reasonably safe to keep one for
constant use and the others as supporting specialists of some sort.

Advice? Comments?



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What is backup_vg-backup? Can it be so big?

[Beartooth]

On a System76 PC several years old, running F32 fully updated (not 
Ubuntu), I see the following:

$ df -h
FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
devtmpfs  7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev
tmpfs 7.8G 0  7.8G   0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 7.8G  1.6M  7.8G   1% /run
/dev/mapper/fedora-root49G   16G   31G  35% /
tmpfs 7.8G   60K  7.8G   1% /tmp
/dev/mapper/fedora-home52G   20G   30G  40% /home
/dev/sda1 976M  252M  658M  28% /boot
/dev/mapper/backup_vg-backup  1.8T  174M  1.7T   1% /.snapshots
tmpfs 1.6G   60K  1.6G   1% /run/user/65536
bash-5.0$ 

Going into the GUI, right clicking and choosing priorities, I see:

 Link to block device (inode/blockdevice)

So I searched inode, but got over my head in no time. Searching 
snapshot was a little more comprehensible, but using what I think it told 
me would demand knowledge I lack. I also tried blockdevice, and that 
*really* got me into a jungle of jargon.

I'm wondering whether *any* file on an old machine could be so big 
as a terabyte, let alone two. If not, what if anything is df -h telling 
me about this machine as compared to my others? Anything about speed or 
storage?

I also have a still broader question. Instead of keeping each 
machine, as heretofore, as nearly in sync with the others, actually as 
close a copy of the others, might it be reasonably safe to keep one for 
constant use and the others as supporting specialists of some sort.

Advice? Comments?

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Not Quite Clueless Linux Power User
I have precious (very precious) little idea where up is.
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Re: Hourly Error Message of Unknown Provenance

[R. G. Newbury]

On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 10:30:04 -0600 Jerry James  wrote

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 9:54 PM R. G. Newbury  wrote:
> Brand new Fedora 32 KDE spin installation. Seems to work nicely, except:
>
> I have an error notification popping up, every hour, in the bottom right
> corner of the screen:
>
> Plasma Desktop Workspace (and the minutes since the message was posted,
> or the time, hourly of a previous message)
> Update Error
> Sender is not authorized to send message.

That sounds like a dbus error.  Have you seen any indication of an
SELinux denial?  If not, run "journalctl -x" in a terminal and search
for "Sender is not authorized to send message".  Does it appear?  If
so, what are the lines immediately above and below that?
*

It was apparently something to do with selinux. I usually disable 
selinux as the first or second thing I do to a new install. I forgot to 
do that.
A quick edit to /etc/selinux/config and a reboot solved removed the 
annoyance. (I cannot say 'solved the problem as I have no idea what the 
actual problem was: this was the 'sledge-hammer for walnuts' resolution.)


Now how you deciphered that that was where the error came from is just 
further evidence that far too much of system management is arcane magic: 
 Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
indistinguishable from magic.


Oddly 1) I was running as root... so *who/what* was the 'unauthorized 
sender'? and

2) Journalctl showed NOTHING about errors.

Thanks for the help Jerry







 R. Geoffrey Newbury
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system-config-kickstart

[Gordon Messmer]

I don't need to use system-config-kickstart very often, but I do tend to 
recommend it to colleagues who are starting out automating setup 
processes.  I've just noticed for the first time that the package is no 
longer available, because it was never ported to Python 3/GTK 3:


https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/system-config-kickstart

The retirement message indicates that users should use Anaconda instead, 
and while I see that you can install anaconda-gui, I don't see a way to 
use it to create a kickstart file on a running system.  Am I missing 
something, or is the installation process now the only program that 
creates a kickstart file from scratch?

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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[George N. White III]

On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 at 04:00, Samuel Sieb  wrote:

>
> FAT32 is the usual portable filesystem.
>

FAT32 is the current usual but "future *has been*" portable
filesystem.FAT32 doesn't allocate partial blocks, so a
direct copy of some linux directory often results in a very
large loss of free space on FAT32.  FAT32 limits you to
files under 4GB, and partitions under 32GB.   You can
create a FAT32 filesystem with smaller allocation units,
but that probably reduces the partition size limit and
many not be supported on some devices.

When moving files between linux and other systems I generally use
archives to preserve ownership and permissions, while avoiding
small file allocation problems.The way forward is exFAT:

https://fossbytes.com/linux-5-7-microsofts-exfat-driver-code/


TL;DNR:

exFAT is a patented Microsoft filesystem that is widely used for
with removable storage on portable devices.   Microsoft released
a snapshop of the code under GPL2 in 2019.

exFAT has total filesystem size and file size limits far beyond what
most users require, and has been supported on Windows and macOS
for years.  Support for exFAT was added to the linux 5.4 kernel and
Samsung (which has exFAT for androids device) has contributed
improvements that were accepted for 5.7.

Fedora 31 and 32 don't have exFAT in the kernel:

% grep EXFAT /boot/config-`uname -r`
# CONFIG_STAGING_EXFAT_FS is not set


For now, there is a FUSE implementation in Fedora:
% sudo dnf install exfat-utils fuse-exfat

I generally format memory sticks/cards with Windows in
case fuse-exfat does something that other devices don't
handle.  There are many 3rd party implementations;
most are only tested against Windows.

-- 
George N. White III
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Re: Installing new SSD drive

[John Mellor]

On 2020-06-06 12:28 p.m., Matti Pulkkinen wrote:

Sam Varshavchik kirjoitti 6.6.2020 klo 17.37:
I've got rust here that's been spinning for ~12 years in my basement, 
24x7, and I expect it to spin for a while longer.


I can't quite come to terms with the idea of storage with a suicide 
clock, ticking away.


It's likely that, sometime in the next year, I wll be replacing that 
hardware, but if that happens, the hardware will retire on my 
schedule, instead of losing its own blue smoke, by itself.


All hardware fails eventually, and in that sense all hardware has a 
suicide clock, as you put it. However, I have been using one of the 
early model SSDs for almost ten years now, and I will probably 
continue to use it for a good while yet. As for the drive I mentioned 
earlier, a TBW rating of 100 TB is, in practical perspective, very high.


Since we were talking about the effects of swap, let's say you have a 
four GB swap partition or file on your SSD with a TBW rating of 100 
TB. Let's come up with a pretty extreme example and say your computer 
swaps a ton and writes that partition full, twice every day. Assuming 
writes to other partitions are relatively normal, say around four 
gigabytes per day on average, this gives the drive an expected 
lifespan of about two decades by my count. Given that, I really would 
not worry about putting swap on an SSD. In consumer-grade hardware 
under normal use, I would expect the electronics to rot before the TBW 
comes up.


Just out of interest, why do you care about wear from using swap?  Its a 
lot cheaper and makes a much faster machine to add RAM up to the max, 
and for most machines, swap will become essentially unused.  That way, 
unless you are running a disk-intense datacenter, the life of an SSD 
will outlast both the machine and you.  Or is the machine so overloaded 
that you need more than max RAM?


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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[Bob Goodwin]

On 2020-06-07 03:00, Samuel Sieb wrote:


Media writer might just be dumping the iso onto the drive.  In that 
case it's read-only because the iso filesystem is read-only. You need 
to reformat it to be able to write.


I prefer to use the cli tool livecd-iso-to-disk which unpacks the iso 
and creates a bootable drive with a FAT file system.  It also allows 
using overlays and separate home directory, but it's also not as 
simple as media writer.


Also what file system should I use from the selection offered by 
gparted?  Today I tried "vfat32". Later changed that to "vfat" with 
mkfs, but I'm never sure what I should use. Whatever, it should work 
in Fedora and my daughter's Mac portable, as well as the digital 
audiobook player which is probably expecting Windows stuff.

°
I appreciate the good, clear answers to both questions.  Thank you, Sam,

Bob


FAT32 is the usual portable filesystem.
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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[Tim via users]

Bob Goodwin:
>> Also what file system should I use from the selection offered by
>> gparted?  Today I tried "vfat32". Later changed that to "vfat"
>> with mkfs, but I'm never sure what I should use.


Samuel Sieb:
> FAT32 is the usual portable filesystem.

Don't you still get file size limits with FAT32?
 
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Re: Media writer/USB Flash -

[Samuel Sieb]

On 6/6/20 5:06 PM, Bob Goodwin wrote:



On 2020-06-06 18:27, Samuel Sieb wrote:


I'm not sure what you mean by "read-only files".  But you should be 
able to use any partition editor to delete whatever partitions are 
there and create new ones.  gparted, gnome-disks, fdisk, etc.

__

°
If I use media-writer and then need to reuse the stick to put an audio 
book on it for my digital audio player I have to clear it with fdisk or 
Gparted before I can save to it in the terminal. I guess I would really 
like to not have that read only flag set when I put the iso file on one. 
Perhaps I should be using something other than media-writer?


Media writer might just be dumping the iso onto the drive.  In that case 
it's read-only because the iso filesystem is read-only.  You need to 
reformat it to be able to write.


I prefer to use the cli tool livecd-iso-to-disk which unpacks the iso 
and creates a bootable drive with a FAT file system.  It also allows 
using overlays and separate home directory, but it's also not as simple 
as media writer.


Also what file system should I use from the selection offered by 
gparted?  Today I tried "vfat32". Later changed that to "vfat" with 
mkfs, but I'm never sure what I should use. Whatever, it should work in 
Fedora and my daughter's Mac portable, as well as the digital audiobook 
player which is probably expecting Windows stuff.


FAT32 is the usual portable filesystem.
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