Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Tim via users]

On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> relevant.

Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?

And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
needed?  It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
implemented.

This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
start again" is just incompetence.  And you'll find several OS projects
that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
never actually coming to any fruition because of it.

Don't let those people near the kernel code.

-- 
 
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC 2020 x86_64
 
Boilerplate:  All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
 
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Tom Seewald]

> So, outside of classic Unix/Linux /etc/resolv.conf... most software does
> not treat a list of multiple DNS servers as explicitly "primary" and
> "secondary" (and so on).  

Both network manager and systemd-resolved ostensibly support ordering of DNS 
servers. I'm not sure why you have decided to attempt to lecture me on this. 
It's apparent that you do not think this is a problem at all.

> As for logging... this is something that has the potential to bounce
> around a bunch under some conditions, so I don't think logging it is a
> great idea (can easily cause log spam).

Being silent about switching DNS is not friendly towards the user or admin, 
rate limiting of messages could also be done if this is happening many times 
per minute and log spam is a concern.
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Tom Seewald  said:
> Yeah I'm not very happy that systemd-resolved seemingly does this silently 
> and that I have to just restart the service for it to try again. My server is 
> just a consumer router running OpenWRT which uses Dnsmasq.

So, outside of classic Unix/Linux /etc/resolv.conf... most software does
not treat a list of multiple DNS servers as explicitly "primary" and
"secondary" (and so on).  Some software will start with the first, then
at any error or timeout (which can happen due to errors up the recursive
line, not necessarily with the server itself), go to the second, and
continue using it until there's an error/timeout, when it'll go to the
third (and so on until it starts back at the top).

Some software sends to multiple servers at first and then watches which
one is faster and uses it for a while, checking all again periodically.

Some software rotates through the list for each request.

And really... almost all of these behaviors work out better in practice
than the classic resolv.conf behavior of each program having its own
query list, trying the first server with lots of retries and timeouts,
then the second, etc.  That behavior means that whenever the first
server is down, all kinds of stuff times out, and keeps timing out
because each thing starts a new process (which starts with the first
server again).

A local cache or even basic resolver to manage queries is better
behavior, and what other OSes have used for years.  I'm not a fan of how
systemd-resolved does some things, but having something like that is
long overdue.

As for logging... this is something that has the potential to bounce
around a bunch under some conditions, so I don't think logging it is a
great idea (can easily cause log spam).
-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Tom Seewald]

I could just disable it, but given that systemd-resolved is now a default of 
Fedora I thought I'd bring this up as this is having a negative impact on my 
experience with Fedora 33.
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Sam Varshavchik]

George N. White III writes:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer- 
Abandonware>It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix


I'm subscribed to the x.org mailing list. It's getting a steady trickle of  
mailing list traffic, and, from the looks of it, prompt replies from  
maintainers and/or contributors.


X.org is a mature, stable product. Barring a completely new version of X11  
popping out somewhere, and new hardware coming out, there's really not much  
to do with it.





pgpH8s0pJHGx2.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Tom Horsley]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 20:30:31 -
Tom Seewald wrote:

> Yeah I'm not very happy that systemd-resolved seemingly does this silently 
> and that I have to just restart the service for it to try again.

You could just disable that service, then systemd wouldn't try to
cache dns. There are about a dozen different DNS caching layers
in things already (which I discovered when desperately trying to
flush bad DNS info on a system once).
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Tom Seewald]

Yeah I'm not very happy that systemd-resolved seemingly does this silently and 
that I have to just restart the service for it to try again. My server is just 
a consumer router running OpenWRT which uses Dnsmasq.
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[stan via users]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:46:00 -0300
"George N. White III"  wrote:
 
> One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> relevant.

What this means is that there were 30+ years of corner cases handled in
the code.  Those won't be handled in Wayland for a long time, if ever.
When Wayland has its own stack of such corner cases, it will then be
bloated and unmaintainable, and the cycle will start again with a new
piece of software.

If X runs on a single user system with no internet facing services,
security exploits are probably not a breaker.  It will be the change in
the abis and apis as the underlying system evolves that will break it.
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Re: An "arp ... pub" replacement?

[ITwrx]

On 10/26/20 12:02 PM, Steve Hill wrote:
> However, I'm finding that for managed routers, ISPs are increasingly
> unwilling to set up custom routing. 

but can they not put the router into bridge mode and let your fw handle
it from there?
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Joe Zeff]

On 10/26/20 10:10 AM, Matti Pulkkinen wrote:
But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change around 
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more 
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to 
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the 
most minimal security updates.


And more and more of us will be forced to use Gnome whether we want to 
or not because it's the only thing that works with Wayland.

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An "arp ... pub" replacement?

[Steve Hill]

I'm looking for advice on best practice for setting up a Fedora / CentOS 
firewall in the following situation:


LAN (10.0.0.0/24)
   |
   |
   | (10.0.0.1)
   Firewall
   | (198.51.100.2/27)
   |
   | (198.51.100.1/27)
 ISP's Router
   |
   |
   |
Internet


In addition to 198.51.100.1 and 192.51.100.2, the ISP is providing 28 
extra public IPs (192.51.100.3-30), and I want to the firewall to be 
able to DNAT those IPs to internal machines, which means it needs to 
answer ARP for them.


The router is routing all of the public IPs directly to its internal 
NIC.  In an ideal world, we'd just reconfigure the router so that the 
IPs are routed via the firewall rather than being directly connected. 
However, I'm finding that for managed routers, ISPs are increasingly 
unwilling to set up custom routing.



The available options seem to be:

1. Add aliases for all of the addresses onto the internet NIC of the 
firewall.  You used to be able to create an 
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0-range0 file with the address 
range in it and have the network scripts automatically add the aliases. 
Unfortunately NetworkManager no longer seems to support this.  Also this 
feels quite messy because you end up with a lot of addresses attached to 
the NIC, and strictly speaking those addresses don't really belong to 
the firewall since they are intended to be forwarded through to internal 
machines.


2. Route 198.51.100.0/27 to a dummy NIC and enable proxy ARP on the 
internet NIC.  Proxy ARP is a fairly blunt tool and will cause the 
firewall to answer ARP for any address, not just that subnet.


3. The only thing the firewall actually needs to do with these addresses 
is answer ARP requests for them.  It used to be possible to use the arp 
command to set this up with something like:

  arp -i eth0 -Ds 198.51.100.0 eth0 netmask 255.255.255.24 pub
This method is documented in TLDP, but the arp command is long 
deprecated in favour of "ip neigh" which doesn't appear to support doing 
this.



Can anyone advise whether any "best practice" for this kind of setup exists?

Thanks.


--
- Steve
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Re: Add repo?

[Beartooth]

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 13:47:41 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 17:40:08 - (UTC)
> Beartooth wrote:
> 
>>  I've just discovered that dnf on one of my machines (a Thinkpad,
>> but I've forgotten where it keeps its model number) is lacking
>> rpmfusion;
>> and I can't seem to figure out how to add it. How do I do it?
> 
> Follow the instructions on rpmfusion web page?
> 
> https://rpmfusion.org/Configuration

Well, at least I knew it must be obvious (except to me). Many 
thanks!

I did the CLI, then noticed there was more, and did 

> RPM Fusion repositories also provide a lot of complement packages, it's 
> often difficult to remember which is the exact name of each complement 
> package. One can easily remember using the package group that the 
> repository extends.

> The following command will install the complements multimedia 
> packages needed by gstreamer enabled applications:

> sudo dnf groupupdate multimedia --setop="install_weak_deps=False" --
> exclude=PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin

I hope that was right. (I didn't add the next CLI offering, 
because I keep my browsers set not to do sound. Nor did I try any of the 
"tainted". Tom, or somebody, please let me know if those decisions were 
bad. TIA!)
-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I know little (precious little!) of where up is.
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Matti Pulkkinen]

Matti Pulkkinen kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 18.10:
But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change around 
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more 
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to 
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the 
most minimal security updates.




Oops, sorry about that. I accidentally sent this before meaning to, but 
I think you get the idea anyway, even with the poor grammar.



--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Matti Pulkkinen]

Tom Horsley kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 16.03:

On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:42:09 +0200
Matti Pulkkinen wrote:


Sad if true.


Nah, look at it this way: If it is abandoned, it won't be
getting scads of gratuitous changes for no reason like
everything else in linux gets all the time :-).


But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change around 
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more 
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to 
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the 
most minimal security updates.



--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
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firewalld

[Michael J. Baars]

Hi,

I'm writing a client and server program for cluster computation. I noticed that 
nmap sees a specific port as open on Fedora Server and as filtered on Fedora
Workstation when the server is running and sees this port as closed on Fedora 
Server and as filtered on Fedora Workstation when the server is not running.

While looking into the firewalld configuration I found that Fedora Workstation 
and Fedora Server have one major difference their configuration files:

  
  

After removing these specific lines from 
/etc/firewalld/zones/FedoraWorkstation.xml, using firewall-cmd, the ports are 
still accessible by the client and server
program.

Can someone please tell me how to close these ports on Fedora Workstation? And 
why does nmap report the ports as filtered on Fedora Workstation and as
open/close on Fedora Server?

Best regards,
Mischa.


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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Tom Horsley]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:42:09 +0200
Matti Pulkkinen wrote:

> Sad if true.

Nah, look at it this way: If it is abandoned, it won't be
getting scads of gratuitous changes for no reason like
everything else in linux gets all the time :-).

The last time I checked, I couldn't do things like map
buttons on my trackball to enable drag lock on wayland.

Maybe if I bought a kensington expert mouse trackball
for some wayland developers they would figure out how
utterly impossible it is to use without drag lock :-).
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Re: X Org Server is abandonware

[Matti Pulkkinen]

George N. White III kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 13.46:
It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix 


... > Wayland has been around for a while and still many
drivers (Wacom professional drawing tablets) require X (and don't work 
with X-Wayland).





Sad if true. I happen to use a Wacom tablet, and as far as I know, one 
still cannot do a screen capture with OBS. I need both of these to work 
before I can switch to Wayland.



--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
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X Org Server is abandonware

[George N. White III]

It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix


"The last major release of the X.Org Server was in May 2018 but don't
expect the long-awaited X.Org Server 1.21
 to
actually be released anytime soon.

This should hardly be surprising but a prominent Intel open-source
developer has conceded that the X.Org Server is pretty much "abandonware"
with Wayland being the future. This comes as X.Org Server development hits
a nearly two decade low
,
the X.Org Server is well off its six month release regiment in not seeing a
major release in over two years, and no one is stepping up to manage the
1.21 release."

One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
relevant.  It has been clear for some time that X Org was not getting much
attention, but Wayland has been around for a while and still many drivers
(Wacom professional drawing tablets) require X (and don't work with
X-Wayland).   An additional problem is that developers with decades of X11
experience are aging out.

The Phoronix post has 100's comments, so far I haven't seen them degenerate
to politics.


-- 
George N. White III
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Ed Greshko]

On 26/10/2020 18:09, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll be "that guy" again and point
out that F33 is as yet unreleased and any issues should be sent to the
Fedora Test list until it is released.


Well, since F33 is a GO for release on Tuesday the 27th, I think it is about 
time to spare
the horse.

---
The key to getting good answers is to ask good questions.
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boxes keyboard locking to VM

[Frederic Muller]

Hi!

Virtualbox doesn't seem to run anymore (or not without spending too much 
time troubleshooting). I've started a VM in GNOME Boxes but selected not 
to get the keyboard/mouse locked at one point. Now using the VM with the 
mouse is hell as the mouse seems to leave the screen before it reaches 
its sides.


I've been looking at how to lock it back again but didn't find anything. 
Does anyone know how to do that?


Thank you.

Fred

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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 02:30 +, Tom Seewald wrote:
> After upgrading to F33 I've noticed that sometimes my current DNS server 
> switches to 1.1.1.1 instead of my local DNS (192.168.1.1). This has happened 
> both immediately after system boot, and once after several hours of use. For 
> my connection in Network Manager, under IPv4, I have "192.168.1.1, 1.1.1.1" 
> in "Other DNS Servers". My understanding is that this should cause the system 
> to prefer 192.168.1.1, and historically it has always consistently used 
> 192.168.1.1 until the upgrade to F33. At first glace I don't see any relevant 
> messages in the system journal that indicate why it is falling back to 
> 1.1.1.1. The output of "resolvectl status" shows that 192.168.1.1 is listed 
> above 1.1.1.1 both when it is correctly using local dns and when it is 
> spuriously switching to 1.1.1.1.
> 
> My current workaround is to restart the resolved service, which causes it to 
> switch back to the correct DNS server, however this is clearly not ideal. 
> 
> Any ideas for fixing or troubleshooting this would be appreciated.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll be "that guy" again and point
out that F33 is as yet unreleased and any issues should be sent to the
Fedora Test list until it is released. To repeat: many testers do not
read the Users list and will not see your post.

poc
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Re: Strange gpg-agent processes with Fedora 32

[Richard Hughes]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 14:24, Jonathan Billings  wrote:
> I'm running f33beta, bu I have also seen these, they're owned by the
> packagekit systemd service (confirm by running 'cat /proc/2512/cgroup'
> in your example).

PackageKit doesn't use gpg itself, but it's highly likely libdnf is
doing something with GPG which PK does use.

Richard.
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Re: systemd-resolved switching DNS servers

[Ed Greshko]

On 26/10/2020 10:30, Tom Seewald wrote:

After upgrading to F33 I've noticed that sometimes my current DNS server switches to 1.1.1.1 instead of my 
local DNS (192.168.1.1). This has happened both immediately after system boot, and once after several hours 
of use. For my connection in Network Manager, under IPv4, I have "192.168.1.1, 1.1.1.1" in 
"Other DNS Servers". My understanding is that this should cause the system to prefer 192.168.1.1, 
and historically it has always consistently used 192.168.1.1 until the upgrade to F33. At first glace I don't 
see any relevant messages in the system journal that indicate why it is falling back to 1.1.1.1. The output 
of "resolvectl status" shows that 192.168.1.1 is listed above 1.1.1.1 both when it is correctly 
using local dns and when it is spuriously switching to 1.1.1.1.

My current workaround is to restart the resolved service, which causes it to 
switch back to the correct DNS server, however this is clearly not ideal.

Any ideas for fixing or troubleshooting this would be appreciated.




This would seem to indicate that at some time 192.168.1.1 failed to respond to 
a DNS request.

I replicated this by using a firewall on a DNS server to block request.

Prior to the block I see

  Current DNS Server: 192.168.1.142
 DNS Servers: 192.168.1.142
  192.168.1.1

After the block I see

  Current DNS Server: 192.168.1.1
 DNS Servers: 192.168.1.142
  192.168.1.1

I don't see any reports in the journal that a DNS request failed to 
192.168.1.142.

After removing the firewall block the Current DNS remains at 192.168.1.1.  I 
could not
find any configuration or settings that would have systemd-resolved reassess 
access to
the "primary" DNS server.

What type of server is your server at 192.168.1.1?

---
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