Re: SeLinux, should I disable it?
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > Please note that the OP gave no evidence or reasons to back up his > assertion that SELinux's design is faulty. See back you said it faulty! >Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence Correct phrase. > and, until it's offered, this is just Argument By > Assertion and can be dismissed as FUD. No idea. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innovation.. -C Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: SeLinux, should I disable it?
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 11:29 AM, JB wrote: > SELinux is a dangerous software, by its faulty design, and thus more so > in the context of security, which is supposed to provide. It is faulty or not I don't know, but at least, I can say that it should dangerous software. Why don't there is an option like, if you wish you can enable SELinux, might be other distros having (I don't have idea). -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innovation.. -C Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
SeLinux, should I disable it?
Hi, After I install F14 (KDE), how should I disable SeLinux? Because more of the time it gives alerts and it is highly technical in nature to understand the SeLinux (for a normal person, not from computers). -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innovation.. -C Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
using checksum file in windows
Hi, As most of the people say, I have downloaded the F14 ultimately but in using torrent in Windows. The folder contains two files- i) Fedora-14-i686-Live-KDE.iso ii) Fedora-14-i686-Live-KDE-CHECKSUM .iso would be burned and then installed replacing F11, but what should I do of the second checksum file (having no extension), in windows (my hard disk is dual booted) am I required to run this, if yes how? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innovation.. -C Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: which is more user friendly--KDE or GNOME
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: > IMHO, if you are new to both, try both and decide for yourself. > Chances are you will settle on one. Then, as times goes by, changes > will be made to whatever one you pick and you'll think of switching to > the other. > But no matter which one you go with, you will never be 100% happy. Kind > of like picking a significant other. :-) On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:25 AM, Juan R. de Silva wrote: > I'm GNOME follower. And I hate KDE. In fact I hated it from my first try > and I hate it even more with all its candy changes in KDE 4. And believe > me, I've even tried hard to force myself into it. In fact I still have > openSUSE KDE installed on my multidistro system and from time to time I > do use it. But... I just cannot stand it. :-) > Why? I do not know... At last there are a lot of people that love it and > that say: "I hate it",- about GNOME. Well if so many people like KDE that > means they find it real good. > So, you see, it IS personal. It's like asking around which beer is > better, Pale Ale or Porter. Just taste both yourself and choose one you > like better. So I would go for both one by one and see. First, say most of the people say, KDE would be easier (for those who are novices in Linux), so install that first. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innovation.. -C Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: which is more user friendly--KDE or GNOME
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Temlakos wrote: > I suspect that the answer depends solely on whether you come to Linux > from Mac or Windows. > GNOME <-> Mac > KDE <-> Windows > The handling of user-switching in KDE told the tale. In GNOME, all you > get is a "New Login" option in a menu. As for switching among sessions? > Well, that's what comes of not knowing how to do that on a Mac. > KDE handles that exactly the same way that Windows does. It even has > some of the same button designs. > I imagine that the two desktops will each appeal to different groups of > users that come to Linux from different GUI families. Now it is very clear that I should go for KDE as I have come from Windows. Your reply is really very clear and understandable. Thanks. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia Making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's innocation.. -Charles Mingus -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: which is more user friendly--KDE or GNOME
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:19 PM, nathan forbes wrote: > True, this is bound to turn into a flame-war... > It's all just personal preference anyway. If you wanna know about a DE or > WM, just try it out, and then you know yourself... True for you because you are from IT field but not I am. I have to use the more user friendly one. If they both have different utilities, I would go for each one individually! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
which is more user friendly--KDE or GNOME
Hi, A very basic thing I would like to ask if KDE is more user friendly then GNOME desktop? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: problem with fc11 vlc player
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Michael Miles wrote: > Why in the world you would want to put old non supported software on a > computer is just beyond me and probably most people that read these posts. Not old but once I am familiar with one, I don't want to change it to learn something new, might be becoz I am not from the IT field. I like Fedora but once installed, was trying to see the things in one version only! But if I install F14, would it be okay for my hardware which is not cutting edge? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: problem with fc11 vlc player
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 2:47 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: Right now, the latest version is F14 and the only two versions supported > are 13 and 14. If you aren't interested in upgrading your OS every six > to nine months, Fedora probably isn't the right distro for you but if > you like the idea (as I do) of living on the bleeding edge and helping > find out if the newest version of some package is "ready for prime > time," by all means, use Fedora. The choice is yours and yours alone, > which is one of the many things I like about Linux in general. Another important thing I have is that like you are suggesting for Fedora or Ubuntu but that the newest cutting edge technology could be installed in the older hardware assuming that the hardware has minimal composition, like, only 2 gb ram, hard disk and speaker, with keyboard and a non-usb mouse. In this hardware too we can install any cutting edge OS like fedora or it really depends on the hardware that if it would accept a particular distro or not! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: problem with fc11 vlc player
On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > F11 is not supported anymore, but you may be able to find the F11 packages > on the net. > > For example: > > > http://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/releases/11/Everything/i386/os/repoview/index.html > F11 is no more supported but if I am having Fedora 11, means if any problem comes, what should I do, should it be mandatory to upgrade? Further could you please let me know how to install VLC media player as that package is available in the link you gave. Should I use F11 or not? Or should I upgrade as I am not from the IT field but liked Fedora so installed but want something stable so that only could be learned. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
problem with fc11 vlc player
I am trying to install the VLC media player as per the link: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-fedora.html where the option of Fedora 11 is there but after I implement the command: [root@localhost ~]# rpm -ivh http://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/rpmfusion-free-release-stable.noarch.rpm It shows me the following error: Retrieving http://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/rpmfusion-free-release-stable.noarch.rpm warning: /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.Thiu5y: Header V3 RSA/SHA256 signature: NOKEY, key ID 16ca1a56 error: Failed dependencies: system-release >= 12 is needed by rpmfusion-free-release-12-3.noarch but while installing rpm fusion, saying error! Many people are using the older versions too, like FC9, or FC10 and I am using FC11, but then how could be installed the VLC media player? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
clearing history
Like in Windows XP, we can clear the history of the temp files by using the following commands in the run window:- %temp% temp prefetch and then deleting all the trash files. Similarly, if we want to clear the history of these files (if are created) in Fedora, how can we do? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: java problem
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Erik P. Olsen wrote: That doesn't necessarily prove it's a fedora problem. I have for example a > java > problem (both Sun's and IcedTea) with loging on to a certain home page > through > firefox and it works fine with Google Chrome. But as it is a part of Fedora too, (not necessarily proven as by you), we should see if it could be resolved or not rather with a different discussion. Isn't it true? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: java problem
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > > We can use either Sun java or the open JDK, but the problem is in Sun > java > > installation and when you try to play online chess at the said websites. > > Well, that's hardly a Fedora bug, is it? > I don't know if it is but when I do the same in Windows XP or Vista, there comes no problem and no error message of java which is coming in Fedora! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: java problem
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Peter Larsen < plar...@famlarsen.homelinux.com> wrote: I wonder what problem is preventing you from simply: yum install > @java ?? openjdk/icedtea works fine. > We can use either Sun java or the open JDK, but the problem is in Sun java installation and when you try to play online chess at the said websites. Open JDK gets installed but some websites makes use of only Sun java, as their docs say! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: confused for booting security
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Tim wrote:
Options for stanzas are read from within them, top to bottom. In this
> case, the first one sets the password, the second line halts further
> processing until the password is entered. Once entered, it would
> process the next two commands.
>
* *I did actually as follows:
#boot=/dev/sda
{.
..}
password --md5
hiddenmenu
title Fedora (the latest kernel)
password --md5
lock
.
title Fedora (previous kernel)
password --md5
lock
.
title WinXP
password --md5
lock
...
Here actually I have to press first 'p' in any case to select any OS and
then after entering the main common password (encrypted PC password). As
password --md5 line is coming in each section, so again I have to type that
encrypted password (different from the previous PC password) and then I come
to login screen. Though I have use password --md5 command separately in each
titles section, but if I omit, I need to enter the password once just after
pressing 'p', which has become mandatory for the above case, even if to
select is WinXP.
--
Regards,
Parshwa Murdia
--
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Re: java problem
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: Have you tried the three suggestions on the page? > Yes I tried. But one is solely for Windows, I cleared the cache and reinstalled too with the same method I wrote. But that page is not verifying and further I was unable to use the it, e.g, when I try to play chess at either of the site: http://www.pogo.com/games/chess http://games.yahoo.com/ch -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
java problem
hi, I have installed the java (by searching at the net) and just did as directed. As follows: [u...@localhost ~]$usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/java java /opt/jre1.6.0_20/bin/java 2 [u...@localhost ~]$su -c '/sbin/ldconfig' Then I downloaded jre-6u23-linux-i586.bin from the page: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html Now did as follows: [r...@localhost ~]# cd /opt (after becoming root) [r...@localhost ~]# sh /home/user/Download/jre-6u23-linux-i586.bin [r...@localhost ~]# ln -s /opt/jre1.6.0_23/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so [r...@localhost ~]# gedit /etc/profile.d/java.sh In the above file, copied the following two lines: export JAVA_HOME=/opt/jre1.6.0_23 export PATH=$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH then, [r...@localhost ~]# source /etc/profile.d/java.sh [r...@localhost ~]# /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/java java /opt/jre1.6.0_23/bin/java 2 [r...@localhost ~]# /usr/sbin/alternatives --config java Entered the value of 2 (indication of choice second) [r...@localhost ~]# /usr/sbin/alternatives --display java [r...@localhost ~]# reboot But the problem is that it is not showing any picture or verification that java has been installed: http://www.java.com/en/download/help/testvm.xml (This link is not verifying that java has been installed). -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: confused for booting security
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Tim wrote: #boot=/dev/sda > default=0 > timeout=5 > splashimage=(hd0,1)/grub/splash.xpm.gz > password --md5 $supercalifragilistic. > > title Fedora (2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686) >lock >root (hd0,1) >kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 ro > root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 quiet >initrd /initrd-2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686.img > > title Fedora (2.6.27.24-78.2.53.fc9.i686) >lock >root (hd0,1) >kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.27.24-78.2.53.fc9.i686 ro > root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 quiet >initrd /initrd-2.6.27.24-78.2.53.fc9.i686.img > > title Memtest86+ (2.11) >root (hd0,1) >kernel --type=netbsd /elf-memtest86+-2.11 > Okay you have kept the password line at the top, so in the boot sequence one has to enter that password for the first two titles (for two Fedora kernels) but for the last title (here Memtest86+), there is not encrypted password. If we want to use the same password for this too, we can insert the 'lock' command just after the line title Memtest86+ (2.11) so that the same encrypted password would be required for this to boot. But if a different password is required, we should enter it above the line title Memtest86+ (2.11) so that it looks: password --md5 $differentpassword title Memtest86+ (2.11) lock root (hd0,1) kernel --type=netbsd /elf-memtest86+-2.11 so that while editing grub through remote place, it is at all not possible without entering the password because the password --md5 line is above the title line. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
confused for booting security
hi, As someone earlier let me know about the encrypting of passwords, I did the following: after becoming the root, used the command: md5crypt to get the encrypted string of passwords for using in /boot/grub/grub.conf This is the password which is NOT the password of the user who logs-in. But while rebooting, while entering this password (when prompted in the black screen), if I press Ecs, I come to the choices of OS and at that time, if press 'e', it says me to edit through the grub, but then I press 'd' to remove the following two lines (which are just below the name of the OS in the /boot/grub/grub.conf file):- password --md5 $1$X58Kw/$v71Qlprzt8f4U9uOu46nk0 lock and after that I press 'b' to boot without entering the encrypted password during the booting time. If this is the case, anyone can press 'e' and then remove those two line and then 'b' to boot without ever entering the encrypted passwords, then what would be the purpose of encrypting that? It would be okay for trespassers too! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:02 PM, William Case wrote: I would just like to add an observation. I have been a member of this > Fedora Users site for 5 years. I have noticed that at some point after > the release of a new version of Fedora a long OT thread develops. > Usually after 6 weeks to 2 months after the release. It kind of signals > that there are no major problems remaining with the release and that > instead of Bugs and Support, a little community building is going on. I > look forward to such a long OT thread after each release. > > Often the threads are started by Trolls and everybody jumps in even if > they know better. In this case, the OP's question although somewhat OT > prompted positive and interesting feed back that let some of us get a > better feel for who people behind posts are, who heretofore were just > recognizable names. > > As I say, I always look forward to the 'every thing is ok with this > release' thread. > > -- > Regards Bill Yes, I also think that it was useful about knowing the programing concept, which even Fedora uses. Fedora itself is made of a program, in fact everything working on a computer! I got useful suggestions and things which are always compatible with Fedora. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Agreed. > > I'd also like to add that this entire thread seems to me to be > off-topic. There are plenty of forums for discussing programming and > programming languages, but this is list is for discussion of Fedora and > as far as I can see not a single message in the thread has any direct > relevance to Fedora, or to Linux, or to operating systems in general. > > If the topic was "which languages are well-supported in Fedora", or even > "what is the most appropriate language for systems programming in Linux" > I wouldn't think twice about it, but the original question was so > general in scope that at first I thought it had to be a troll. After > all, what better way to start a fight among computistas than by asking > about languages? Luckily it hasn't turned out that way, but it still > seems to me entirely out of place here. > > If you disagree, consider a thread starting "what is the best computer?" > > I held off saying this in hopes that the thread would just die a natural > death, and I'm hoping this comment doesn't serve to prolong it any > further, but I felt it had to be said. > > poc But it is really strange that you are claiming this now when almost I got all the suggestion from many members! I hope and guess you might have not checked at that time when I asked the query!! But all of sudden when almost I got many useful doubts cleared, you are alarming this! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Tim wrote: Tim: > >> Not quite, here it is: > >> http://i55.tinypic.com/2whp10j.jpg > > > Parshwa Murdia: > > Great. > > Did you actually read the card? > > > -- > [...@localhost ~]$ > I first saw that and then tries, ultimately could not. Seems great as how wonderful the technology has become! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: Especially when they either top post or quote the entire message, > including large quantities of text that has nothing to do with their reply. > Really. But some reason is there and you know about it being a programing query. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:07 AM, Hugh Caley wrote: May I suggest that people do not use this forum as a type of chat client? > Replies of "Yes." and "Great." are not useful to a public discussion and > make for really huge archive lists and digests. > > Hugh > Correct Hugh, but I hope you would be going through my first basic query and for that I got suggestions, for which I am replying and not for anything else. People here are discussing programing experience, of course Fedora offers the platform for doing that, but the confusion amongst many languages is common to great build! Think of the time you initiated learning or watching out about the programing. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Tim wrote: Hot quite, here it is: > http://i55.tinypic.com/2whp10j.jpg Great. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:46 AM, James McKenzie wrote: Again, more books that I have read. I had or have their Javascript for > Programmers book. Not needed for a good course on programming. > However, their C++ book is great. > > Their C book is a mixed bag in the current edition, but I had a prior > edition and it was very good. It is available from Amazon, but is very > expensive (USD 46). > > James McKenzie Yes, but I got the link to that book of K&R. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Tim wrote: I wonder if kids will build their own MP3 players, the way we built a > crystal radio set? ;-) > > -- > [...@localhost ~]$ > Future only could tell that. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Marvin Kosmal wrote: Punch Card > > > > Hollerith code > > > hehe > > Marvin > ! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:13 AM, Tim wrote: And I still have my book for the SDK-85 to prove it... And my pocket > fold-out cheat-sheet for the CPU OP codes ;-) > > Breadboarding our own CPU, RAM, I/O, etc. > > Mind you, when it comes to compiling OP codes in your head, then > punching hex into a bouncy keypad, I really wouldn't want to have to > program anything more than the codes required to operate a washing > machine or microwave oven. > > Before that, I had toyed with BASIC. But it was so useless (at least > the simpler implementations you found on personal computers, back then), > that you soon give up on trying to do anything good with it. > > > > > > > Tim runs through the room waving a punch card! Cool. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:22 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: There are C++ implementations where C++ is processed to C but the > language it self can have a compiler that does not use C. Oh. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: As someone who taught about programming languages for 30 years I can tell > you it would be pretty hard to go from C++ to Lisp or > scheme without some serious coaching. You might be correct but why I said because of C++ having zillion of options and its learning too takes much time as when you compare with Python or other. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:11 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: Most people who think they understand C++ will be humbled by listening > to its developer explain how it can be used. > Really! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:08 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: I don't agree. No beginning programmer ( I mean one who has never > programmed before) will learn C from K&R. Or at least I this it will be > very difficult. Might be! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:05 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: Unless Java has changed a lot, how to you explain to a beginning > programmer the contortions you have to go through to do I/O in Java? > That's why I think Java is not a beginners programing language. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:39 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: There's also a copy of that story at FOLDOC. The first computer I ever > programmed was an IBM 1620, Mod 2, with 20,000 individually addressable > BCD digits, already obsolete in the late '60s when I first encountered > it. We started out with machine language, eventually graduating to > Assembler and FORTRAN II. I have fond memories of using an IBM 024 and > found the concept of "cardimages" intuitive. Now, of course, people > find it hard to wrap their minds around the idea even after you explain > it. BTW, both Dan and Jerry also cut their teeth on the 1620. > One thing I have seen is that everyone has at some stage of his life used or learned Fortran in any way, that I saw for sure. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Matthew Saltzman wrote: Bah. Real Programmers don't use FORTRAN, either! > > > http://johnreece.com/wordpress/2006/07/10/real-programmers-dont-use-fortran-either/ > > (I was but a tyke in those days, but my dad worked for Royal around the > time this legend takes place. He used to have publicity fliers for > these machines lying around in his den that I poked through. I don't > think he knew Mel. My programming days began with PDP-8s and S/370s, > FORTRAN and PL/I. And IBM 024 keypunch program cards.) > > -- >Matthew Saltzman This is also nice. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: If you can't do what's needed in FORTRAN, you can't do it. Back in the > early '80s, I was working with Dan Alderson at JPL. We were doing work > with structures and pointer arithmetic, in FORTRAN77 because it was a > subroutine and function package to be used in other FORTRAN programs so > we couldn't use Dan's favorite language, PL/1. Those of you who think > you can't do things like that in FORTRAN would do well to ponder the > fact that Jerry Pournelle has called Dan "the sane genius." > :) -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Rick Stevens wrote: I was on the ANSI C committee for a brief time when C was being spec'd > out back in the late '70s and early '80s. Our company was an early > adopter of Whitesmiths' C on Vaxen and PDP-11s. PJ Plaugher of > Whitesmiths was the first secretary of the committee. > > > PJ had an interesting take on things. I remember that Whitesmiths > version of the now-standard "atexit()" function was called "onexit()". > When reading the man page, the prototypes for the arguments were really > mucked up. In the "Bugs" section of the manpage, he said, "...the type > definitions defy description and are still wrong." Also, forgetting > the terminating null in the source string used with their "cpystr()" > (now "strcpy()") function was deemed "mildly perilous." > > > Technically C++ grew out of AT&T Bell Labs' Cfront, which was an OOP > pre-processor for C. The combination of C and Cfront was often referred > to as "C with classes". > > When C++ was first being codified formally it was called "Incremental > C". Since "++" is the C increment operator, the name sort of fell out > serendipitously. First it was cute, then the lightbulb went on with > "Hey, that's a GREAT name for it!" I remember discussions as to whether > a follow-on language would be called "D" or "P" (since the roots of C > are based on the old BCPL language). > > C# is Microsoft's implementation of C++ with some extensions (mostly the > ".NET" crud). It is more-or-less compatible to ANSI C++, but not > completely. Microsoft seems to have a horrible aversion to using > industry standards (ADS is a subset of LDAP, for example, but they'll > never say so). > > Q: How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? > A: None. They redefine darkness as the standard. > > Now, looking at things such as Java...does anyone else remember a rather > noble but failed experiment called "UCSD P-System Pascal", championed by > Nicklaus Wirth in the '80s? Same idea, compile to some bizarre, byte- > code version of the source and have a target-specific interpreter to > act as a virtual machine to execute the byte-code. So Java certainly > isn't revolutionary, or even a very new idea. > > Perhaps P-Systems' failure was due to not having gobs of memory or fast > processors to implement the virtual machine at that time and that Sun > Microsystems wasn't behind it as they were with Java. > > Anyway, that's my contribution to the discussion. > > (donning my flak jacket and flame-retardant suit for the inevitable > missiles that will be hurled in my direction) > -- > - Rick Stevens Nice, you also seem to have nice experience. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Matt Smith wrote: I have to disagree, if utilized properly managing memory, optimizing > the cache, etc is very possible with c++ and can absolutely work well > in a high performance environment You must have worked with C++ in a high performance environment. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Jussi Lehtola < jussileht...@fedoraproject.org> wrote: Traditionally high performance computing programs have been written in > Fortran, then some C, but nowadays many of the new codes are C++, > simply because OOP makes it a *lot* faster to develop a bug-free code.. > A lot of people still use Fortran (>= 90) for new codes as well, > though.. > -- > Jussi Lehtola > Oh I see. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: Basically, C++ is not going to work well in a high performance computing > environment. Templates and inheritance have their place. In essence C++ > and other OOP models should be designed. While that goes for all code, a > poorly designed C++ system could certainly have issues. But, I don't > want to get into the benefits of any one language. I've had to work with > classes that were not properly designed to where I had to write a base > class and take the existing class and inherit from the new base so that > the existing code would work. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Great. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:37 PM, les wrote: VERY well said. Thank you Jerry! > > Regards, > Les H > Yes. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:36 PM, les wrote: I also must be showing my age ;-:) (showing the toothless, dentureless > smile) > You must be highly experienced! > The largest code I ever personally developed was just over 40,000 lines. > > > Regards, > Les H > And you use the word 'just' here, wow! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:35 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: I also don't like to get into discussions about what is > the best language. But you only told all this about C++!! > -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: A properly optimized simple C++ program should be able to perform as well > as C. -- > Jerry Feldman > Simply say, C++ is the daughter of C which has become more advanced. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: Since I cowrote the Alpha assembler for Windows NT and Tru64 Unix. Most > of the RISC chips had a large number of general purpose registers. The > trick is to use them effectively. You can easily use one as a base > register and one as an index register. Octal and Hex are just shorthand > notations for expressing binary. In the early days of computing things > were not standardized. For instance, the DEC PGP-8 was a 12-bit machine. > Octal was much more convenient for PDP-8s. Systems based on the byte > generally use hex. I would expect that some of the new processors have > some form of virtualization manager. Can you see Intel chips with a > VMWare supervisor and AMD chips with a Microsoft Hyper V. > Guess, it is inside the 'Assembly language' talk! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:09 PM, les wrote: Since C++ is a preprocessor to C, how does it run circles around C? > Just asking. > > Regards, > Les H > Absolutely no idea dude! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:01 PM, les wrote: But as I recall, the alpha had some vector extensions and bytecoding > extensions that enabled faster indexing, which is why it ran faster with > indexed arrays ;-) > > And as to representation, if you go to assembly language the choice of > octal or hex is often based upon the instruction declination of the > processor. For example the 8080 was octal, because the first 2 bits had > a specific segmentation of the instruction set, the next three could > choose a register or memory and the final three would make a choice > based upon the other two groups. > > In the 6800 and later motorola processors, the representation was hex, > reflecting a broader register base and larger instruction flexibility. > > Now that we have 64 bit processors, and multiple cores, the next step > will be a supervisor for the cores and then a new partitioning of the > instruction word, and I expect a new notation, probably 64 base of some > kind, because it will reflect the new reality of the core processors and > their inherent capabilities. > > Regards, > Les H 'Inside a program talk'! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: "C Programming: A Modern Approach" by King as it was a simpler book. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > I guess the better could be the same by K&R! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: > Top down design, procedures, arrays, pointers, etc. Other object oriented > programming. Techniques, algorithms,..., etc. Those were the good old days > :) Now there is java, looks like C++ but there is no , > , ..., There was no way to get user input, but then they put it in > there :(, It supposed runs on more platforms than the others(C++, C, pascal, > basic, cobol, fortran, ..., etc) > > > Java has the equivalent buried in packages. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > No idea! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:48 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: There is considerable more overhead in compiling a C++ program. I would > probably guess that FORTRAN would win. Another issue is optimization. > Optimization can make major differences. On some RISC platforms we not > only used compiler optimization, but also took the output from the > compiler and based upon some of the hardware latency specifications, > would reorder the resultant code. Today, many CPUs do this automatically. > In any case when writing any code, state your goals ahead of time. I > tend to like to write my code with an emphasis on readability and > correctness. Once the code is working, I can run a performance analysis > to see the places in the code things are slowing down. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > 'Inside a program talk'! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote: int max 32768 > int min -32768 > > Need to use long declarations, I remember this 14-15 years ago :) > > It was fun! But wanted to finish school so I stopped taking comp. science > classes. Now it is Java, my nephew knows it, but does not want to teach > me:( > > Top down design, procedures, arrays, pointers, etc. Other object oriented > programming. Techniques, algorithms,..., etc. Those were the good old days > :) Now there is java, looks like C++ but there is no , > , ..., There was no way to get user input, but then they put it in > there :(, It supposed runs on more platforms than the others(C++, C, pascal, > basic, cobol, fortran, ..., etc) > > But it now has Oracle in charge of it :(, what will happen to it? > > Regards, > > Antonio Too much languages! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:50 PM, David Liguori wrote: I don't know about the Fortran or Java (which is not, > strictly speaking, a "compiled" language). > Oh I see. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Colin Paul Adams wrote: But not design-by-contract. So Eiffel should be the default. > -- > Colin Adams > The person who is engaged with a programing language for years or who has spent years in some particular or one programing language cannot say other to go for anything other from that, that I understand because he is familiar with the usage of that particular language he is asserting. However, Colin, please don't take it on you but I observed the fact in general! Even one suggested me to go for Forth (http://forth.org/), I heard for the first time in my life. I know there may be various reasons for that. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:37 PM, David Liguori wrote: But higher-level languages like C and Fortran ultimately produce a stream of > ones and > zeros that correspond to these instructions, source and target > registers, and data. > Any language (whatever be it is), I think finally is processed in the same way as is C or Fortran, though that is a different thing if some language is already written in C! > Then, for an amusing read which may or may not tell you anything about > how a computer works, try Douglas Hofstadter's "Goedel, Escher, Bach: an > Eternal Golden Braid". > It is the name of the book? > The books by Deitel and Deitel probably have everything you need to know. > But what is the name of the book? Is it something like 'Programing in C' (e.g., one excellent book by K&R)! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Michael Hennebry < henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote: The *default* should be python even for object-oriented stuff. > Python allows polymorphism and operator overloading. > There are important differences: > In python, one cannot declare the type of a variable or member: > Type is acquired by assignment. > def and class statements assign functions and classes to variables. > They do not preclude reassignment. > This could prevent an error message when > one would prefer that to the result. > > Flexibility can be slow. > C++ and java with their fixed types will usually be faster. > > The availablilty of useful additives is another > reason for not necessarily using the default. > > -- > Michael > You can say this because you might be knowing both the languages. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: Books like K&R second edition are written in a more understandable format. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > I agree. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:26 PM, William Case wrote: > There is always a reason why things are done the way they are. > > -- > Regards Bill Correct. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:25 PM, James Mckenzie wrote: Wikipedia has an article on the ANSI C standards. > > James McKenzie > Wikipedia is the father of articles, it would be having articles on all the things! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Matt Smith wrote: I suggested it for that reason, you can use c++ very easily as if it > was C and this allows for a much easier transition in the future. C++ > can be anything from super easy to super hard. There are many texts > that teach it on a basic level which is not much different than C. > Yes, I understand your point Smith that from C++, you can go to any language of the world. But truly and frankly speaking to you, I would say that personally I have more attraction at Python simply becoz of its easiest structure but I would not deny that C++ would be the most vast language. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: Once you have a firm grasp of the concepts of programming, you can move on > to things like OOP. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > That is the real thing! Whatever be the language, the computer process is one to process that!! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: Basically, my company's product is written almost entirely in C++ and > after having been around C++ for a while, IMHO, it happens to be > reasonably well written and structured. In contrast I have been involved > with some C++ that was essentially C with a few C++ isms. I like C++, > but not as a person's first computer language. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Yes, but Python could be that first language. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 8:01 PM, James Mckenzie wrote: It is the 'bible' for programming in C and discusses everything in the > language. You can also find the ANSI/ISO standards as well on the Internet > (for free). > Can you give me the link for it in internet. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 7:58 PM, James Mckenzie wrote: I'll stick with my original recommendation of learning Java for OOP. C++ > requires recompliation for each and every platform you want to run a program > on. The concept of 'this' is also encorporated in Java as well as any OO > programming language. > > James McKenzie I guess you are or have been working on Java and I know no programing language is bad. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:08 PM, n2xssvv.g02gfr12930 < n2xssvv.g02gfr12...@ntlworld.com> wrote: I agree with it being easier to migrate from C++, rather than to C++. > Unfortunately C++ probably has a longer learning curve than most other > programming languages. But the choice of programming language should > really be decided by the type of applications you intend to create, and > the target platforms. Especially if you're starting from scratch and > wish to create any application in a reasonable time period. > > Regards > > cpp4ever > Correct. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Matt Smith wrote: Can we please get c++ involved in the discussion, it runs circles > around C on all levels.. > Ok. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 6:30 AM, James McKenzie wrote: Not legally, anywhere. However, the Second Edition is available from > Amazon and other book retailers. It is not very expensive. It would > cost me more to mail you the extra copy I have to you than it would be > to buy it (even in the United States.) > > James McKenzie Some truly told, "majority of the most useful technology is free now a days". But I was aware of only open source, but now include that book too, if it is really of very low cost, :)-. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:45 PM, James Mckenzie wrote: Used this book when I took a programming class at the University of > Maryland, Seoul, Korea in the mid 1990s. Yes, it is a very good book on how > to properly write and code programs. I'll have to keep in it mind when > talking to a certain programmer. > > James McKenzie > Cool. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 6:30 AM, James McKenzie wrote: Sure, how to get this book? Is it available online somewhere? > Not legally, anywhere. However, the Second Edition is available from > Amazon and other book retailers. It is not very expensive. It would > cost me more to mail you the extra copy I have to you than it would be > to buy it (even in the United States.) > > James McKenzie Some truly told, "majority of the most useful technology is free now a days". But I was aware of only open source, but now include that book too, if it is really of very low cost, :)-. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 2:42 AM, William Case wrote: I don't think you can get it legitimately online -- I have the hard > cover text. It maybe available online now. Google "The C Programming > Language" by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie. It is sold > everywhere that sells computer books. It is not expensive -- not like > other computer text books. > > The 'C' language does not deal directly with the Internet. It is more > basic. Much of the higher level code used for the internet is or was > originally written in 'C' in order to get the computer to accept and > transmit data, to build internet packets and to adhere to traffic > protocols. > > Actually, computers don't use '1' and '0's. The '1' and '0's are just > textual representations of High Voltage and Low Voltage which is what > the machine really uses. It is a handy representation because binary > math (two digit athematic) gives the same results as the combining of > deferent sets of high voltages and low voltages. > > -- > Regards Bill > Yes, sure Bill, I guess that you too are a great computer guy who might be knowing almost all the facts related with the computer, if I am not wrong. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote: I learned C from K&R, from the tutorial that was included with Unix, and > the fact that I was told I had to maintain the Unix CShell. Fortunately > at the time I knew a number of languages including IBM 360/370, > AutoCoder, Burroughs, PDP-8, PDP-11, and Raytheon PTS1200/PTS100 > assembly. My real learning experience was looking at the code generated > by COBOL. You can see how some compilers generate the code, but you can > also see how some decisions you make at the high level language affect > the actual code. I was taught that looping through an array by using > pointers was much faster than subscripting through the same array. BUT, > when working with the compiler group on Tru65 Unix I found that > subscripting was actually much faster when using an optimizing compiler > because the compiler must dereference every pointer, but when > subscripting, it can keep the array base in a register. I had some old C > code that I used to first test that pointers are better than > subscripting, and I then tested that in the Tru64 compiler on the Alpha, > and subscripted loops were faster. > > Basically, the first rule I always use is to write code clearly and > concisely. Remember that someone (you or someone else) may have to debug > it. If you need to make the code work faster, then is the time to > analyze, and we have some really neat tools like graphical profilers > that can point out bottlenecks, and many times these surprise even the > most experienced programmers. > > Basically, the CPU generally does a few things. While there are major > differences, between CISC and RISC, you load an address into a register, > perform some operation on that register, such as add, subtract, > multiply, divide, or, not, and, and a few more. Then you save the > contents into memory. Of course there are branch and conditional branch > where you go to a different part of the code based upon a true or false > condition. To really understand computer logic, an interesting approach > is to build a computer using plugboard parts. Remember, everything in a > computer is binary not decimal, not octal (3 bit representation of > binary), not hexadecimal (4 bit representation). > > -- > Jerry Feldman > This is much related with Assembly language. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:46 PM, William Case wrote: I am not a programmer, but I wanted the answer you seem to want. How > does the damn thing work? More explicitly: > > How does human understandable information get converted by a machine > into electrical data; then store it; may or may not, transform, compare, > and/or relocate the data; and then re-present the data as information > meaningful to humans? > > I found the answer in "The C Programming Language" by Brian W. Kernighan > and Dennis M. Ritchie. This book is such a basic that it is often > referred to just as K&R. If you try to simply use this book as a > tutorial for the C language it is too difficult. Almost every sentence > contains a new concept. But K&R and 'C' are closest to the metal. It's > description and particularly its appendices are used by programmers > mainly as a reference. It really is a text on how to best write code so > that the compiler can use your 'C' code by translating it into machine > language. It is also, therefore, basic instructions for compiler writers > on how they have writer their compilers. > Sure, how to get this book? Is it available online somewhere? > A big however! I found that when I took my time, and worked each new > concept through, with liberal use of google and some tutorial sites, > with some contemplation on my part, with some reference to the the basic > electrical properties of transistors, capacitors, Direct Current and > crystals, I was able to come to a fairly complete (or at least useful) > understanding of how my computer worked and what the text instructions > that I was imputing were doing. > > In addition, I spent a couple of afternoons exploring assembly language > and the IS-32 instruction set. Looking at how compilers work, and how > they translate your text code into machine code (the '1' and '0's you > mentioned) from libraries makes the need for precise instructions (text > syntax) clear and less of a burden. > > I found that by using K&R as a course outline rather than a final all > knowing, all teaching, tutorial book I was able to drill to the bottom > of everything that was happening inside my computer. > That technology is really amazing that whatever in your heart comes, you enter it through keyboard and in a string of '0's and '1's it is read by the processor which then takes the proper action, finally it comes into the wire from where your internet connection is coming (into the form of EM wave of proper frequency, amplitude & time) and then it is further processed! It's really amazing. > If you, like me, look for those Eureka! moments in life, you will find > exploring the capabilities of your computer through the 'C' language is > a wonderful voyage of discovery. The ingenuity and creativity over the > last 50 years that has gone into making the metal, the electricity, and > the programming of a computer is truly a marvel. > Yes, I agree and wonder. > If this is the kind of approach that you are interested in respond to > this post, and I will give you some hints and tricks about uncovering > the programming process. Please do that, I would love that. It is a fact that I get less time to do this all but I would, as it is of interest and a really cool. > If I happen to steer you wrong, I am sure > there are lots of people on this list who will jump in with corrections. > > -- > Regards Bill > Yes, but I don't think so if it is wrong. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Michael Hennebry < henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote: Then the sequence is python, C, assembly. > Python will let you actually write code. > It has a clean syntax that encourages code legibility. > C is much closer to the metal. > The primary python virtual machine is written C. > Operating systems are mostly written in C and assembly. > Assembly is writing for the metal. > > Other posters have mentioned perl and system administration. > Python has made inroads, but perl has a major head start. > That head start includes additives suited to system administration. > System maintenance probably means learning perl to deal with existing code. > I've not learned perl. > > -- > Michael > Oh yes, the correct sequence. But I think (suggestions and reading) the clear and the plain syntax is of Python is you compare it with Perl. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: The bottom line is that data structures really define how you write > code. Back in my (ugh) COBOL days, I was told that the bubble sort was > the best sort. At that time I didn't know much about data structures, > and even if I did, COBOL is a terrible language for implementing good > data structures. Later, while working on Unix, C, and > Run-Time-Libraries, the knowledge of data structures was crucial. > There are many other things that are important in production code, such > as trying to use as many standard elements, and not reinventing the wheel. > But the initial thing is to learn and understand the basic building > blocks, such as what is a variable, what is a constant. But, without > taking a formal programming course, you should be able to get this in > most online tutorials. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Oh I see. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:45 PM, James Mckenzie wrote: Used this book when I took a programming class at the University of > Maryland, Seoul, Korea in the mid 1990s. Yes, it is a very good book on how > to properly write and code programs. I'll have to keep in it mind when > talking to a certain programmer. > > James McKenzie > Cool. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: This is an excellent book. We used it when I took the data structures > course for my masters degree. In retrospect, I would have preferred > Knuth, but this was and is a great book to learn data structures. At the > time, Pascal was hot, and as I mentioned before it is a good language to > teach these concepts. But, it would drive me crazy at work when I would > see a C program written by a Pascal programmer :-). Actually, Knuth is > the Bible, and Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs is the prayer book. > > Another issue for the OP is where you want to use the skills you learn. > If you learn Python, but want to write code for the Android, then maybe > Java might be the way to go. But, simply to learn a programming > language^< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_%2B_Data_Structures_%3D_Programs#cite_note-0 > > > , Python is relatively easy and well documented. If you are going to be > a system admin person then scripting languages such as Perl, CShell, and > BASH scripts might be useful. > > I have taught C at a local University, and one group of people learned > very well and another group really hated it. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Nice. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Bob Marcan wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_%2B_Data_Structures_%3D_Programs > > BR, Bob Nice book Bob. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: A very simple query
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Tim wrote: A good book, not just one reprinting the man page without further > explanation, > can help with this. > > Reading about, and learning, the *concept* is something that a good book is > still useful for. > > There are plenty of things where following a dumb how-to recipe isn't > really a good idea. DNS and mail serving are two of them. > > -- > [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r Correct, I agree that the basic concepts remain the same. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Patrick Kobly wrote: Most assuredly not. But learning with languages that assist in > developing a conceptual model for programming and then extend to a > fuller model appeals to brand new programmers. > > PK For sure, C and Python serve the matter. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:43 PM, William Case wrote: Parshwa, Two basic questions: 1) Do you want to use programming as a way > to understand the inner workings of your computer? Or, 2) Do you want to > acquire a programming language primarily to have the most used/useful > programming skills in order to write a program? (at least useful to > you). Both these objectives may be intertwined, but which is your > primary goal now? Different goals, different programs. > > -- > Regards Bill > The primary interest for which the latest software technology has lured me much is to know about how I can efficiently write the code (despite of my job of other field) but simultaneously I would be pleased if the same piece of code and its generation becomes the reason of knowing how exactly the world of communications is working! That much of the knowledge I am having that the entire world is working on '0' and '1' as everything is going to convert to it and then to electromagnetic signal (for communications) but the only thing to know at first is how to write the code. Secondary things (at later stage) would be that how that program is getting converted into a sting of '0' and '1' which only the computer understands and transmits through wire (as an EM wave). So at times, and it is the high time, that despite of the fact I get very less time, this technology has become a driving force for me that it makes me to think how a code is working? -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: I agree. The important part of computer programming (and I have been a > programmer for 45 years) is that you understand the basic concepts as > well as data structures initially. Okay. Really cool to know that you are programmer for 45 years! Such a long period! > A language like C can get you in trouble very fast. IMHO, Pascal was a > decent language to learn some of > these concepts. IMHO, Python is an excellent first language in that it > behaves as a regular computer language, and also supports object > orientation. Yes, Python is good. > But, you need to learn what a variable is, what integers, > floats, characters, and strings are. These are the basics, but if you do > not understand how integers work using twos complement arithmetic, your > programs might fail and you may not know why. Okay > Additionally, you need to know the basic structures, like stacks (where in > C and C++ your > automatic variables reside) and arrays. I personally don't like Perl as > a language to create applications, but I find it very useful for > scripting. As Parshwa intimates, pointers is an advanced topic and > requires a lot of understanding, and is not a good concept to start on. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Yes, because I saw the book and Pointers was mentioned at the end of the book before which it covers a lot of, a lot of useful stuff, which takes time to be grasped! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote: I agree. The important part of computer programming (and I have been a > programmer for 45 years) is that you understand the basic concepts as > well as data structures initially. Okay. Really cool to know that you are programmer for 45 years! Such a long period! > A language like C can get you in trouble very fast. IMHO, Pascal was a > decent language to learn some of > these concepts. IMHO, Python is an excellent first language in that it > behaves as a regular computer language, and also supports object > orientation. Yes, Python is good. > But, you need to learn what a variable is, what integers, > floats, characters, and strings are. These are the basics, but if you do > not understand how integers work using twos complement arithmetic, your > programs might fail and you may not know why. Okay. > Additionally, you need to know the basic structures, like stacks (where in > C and C++ your > automatic variables reside) and arrays. I personally don't like Perl as > a language to create applications, but I find it very useful for > scripting. As Parshwa intimates, pointers is an advanced topic and > requires a lot of understanding, and is not a good concept to start on. > > -- > Jerry Feldman > Yes, because I saw the book and Pointers was mentioned at the end of the book before which it covers a lot of, a lot of useful stuff, which takes time to be grasped! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: A very simple query
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: I also suggest that, if possible, you take that book back and get a refund > because it is, as I said, several years out of date. > The shop keepers are not fool that they take back anything they sell year back! It would better be there but not used! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: A very simple query
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Robert Myers wrote: Information about Linux gets out of date so fast that I have taken to > adding 2008 OR 2009 OR 2010 to all my Google queries about Linux. The > problem is not confined to Fedora. > > Robert. Oh I see. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: A very simple query
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Robert G. (Doc) Savage wrote:
You will be far better off to download and install the current Fedora
> 14. Then browse http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ for documentation. Use
> that documentation to learn as you go. You'll learn that most Fedora
> utilities and applications have brief on-line manuals ("man pages").
> Join a Linux User's Group (LUG). In 6-12 months you should learn enough
> to install and use Fedora by yourself.
>
> Again, welcome.
>
> --Doc Savage
>
The book I book earlier ( when I didn't know the fact of online usage and
manuals and still is with me). But the book is of Fedora 10 and I assume
(NOT SURE) that almost all the major things would remain same, in case if
ever I read that.
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Parshwa Murdia
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Re: A very simple query
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Robert G. (Doc) Savage wrote:
Parshwa,
>
> Welcome to the fast-paced, ever-evolving world of Fedora. As you are
> about to discover, Fedora doesn't really lend itself to hard copy books
> for learning. If someone takes the trouble to write documentation
> suitable for a book, submits it to a publisher, goes through a couple of
> rounds of editing, proofs, and so on, almost a year will have passed. By
> the time that book appears on store shelves, two newer major versions of
> Fedora will have been released.
>
> You will be far better off to download and install the current Fedora
> 14. Then browse http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ for documentation. Use
> that documentation to learn as you go. You'll learn that most Fedora
> utilities and applications have brief on-line manuals ("man pages").
> Join a Linux User's Group (LUG). In 6-12 months you should learn enough
> to install and use Fedora by yourself.
>
> Again, welcome.
>
> --Doc Savage
>
Thanks man. But in fact, I was already having the system with partly
installed Fedora 11 and earlier I had some problems which I discussed too
but the main thing is that I get less time to work on Fedora (which is apart
from my job) but still I like this world of Fedora, yes always evolving!
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Parshwa Murdia
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Re: A very simple query
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Hiisi wrote: I don't think this is a serious argument for using EOL system. You're > strongly recommended to try F14. The book (at least most of it) will > apply to a newer system. > Regarding to your original question: there is release notes for every > Fedora release. For F11 you can read it here: > http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/11/html/Release_Notes/index.html > HTH > Hiisi > Okay, I see. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: A very simple query
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Hiisi wrote: su, 2010-12-19 kello 15:44 +0530, Parshwa Murdia kirjoitti: > > Hi, > > > > Here is a very simple query, please could one elaborate the main > > points of alterations between the Fedora Core 10 and Fedora Core 11, > > as I am going to install Fedora 10 (due to some reasons), I am having > > 2 GB of RAM and 100 GB Hard disk space. > > Could you please name these reasons? > -- > I am having the only book of Fedora Core 10 to learn and the book is: 'Fedora 10 and Red Hat Enterprise Linux Bible', by 'Christopher Negus' and 'Eric Foster-Johnson'. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
A very simple query
Hi, Here is a very simple query, please could one elaborate the main points of alterations between the Fedora Core 10 and Fedora Core 11, as I am going to install Fedora 10 (due to some reasons), I am having 2 GB of RAM and 100 GB Hard disk space. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote: Being out to lunch is goodI prefer good food myself. I could not > agree more emphatically with your points > > Ranjan:-) And the opinions are the self generated feelings, as according to the self experiences and situations! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:15 AM, les wrote: I see a lot of complaints about pointers in all these messages, telling > this novice to avoid them. But the fact is that all languages rely on > pointers. Even the beloved scripting languages so many tout, cannot > exist without pointers. > > The fact is that all data in the computer resides in memory or on disk > or some other file system. Every file system depends on pointers. If > you look for example (using one of the oldest and free forms that is > easily accessible) FAT 16, The base structure starts with the location > 0, which is a pointer to a data store describing the disk. In turn, > from that you find pointers to the partition table. From that you find > pointers to the FAT table itself, and to the data. From the fat table > you get an array of indexed pointers to data segments which are pointers > to boundaries of data blocks, and from the partition table you get a > description of the sector layout, the retrieval blocking and other > information about the structure, which allow you to decode the FAT table > and extract the data. > > The beloved object oriented folks have pointers built in, that are used > to access the procedures that affect the objects. The objects are in > fact structures, which are created in blocks and again pointers are used > to reference that information. When you use an array, that is an > indexed offset from a pointer. > > Someone said pointers break the typing. That is not true, if you do not > break pointer typing to begin with. That is a pointer can be typed, and > moreover someone who uses an integer for a pointer is voiding type > control in his program. > > No knowing pointers means not having any clue to how the underlying > structure works and leads to weak programming. > > I strongly encourage every beginning programmer to learn pointers, > pointer usage and pointer math to understand some of the mechanisms that > make programs break. A programmer who doesn't understand the strengths > and weaknesses of pointers is like a plumber who doesn't know how pipes > work and what makes a manifold. He can hack around, but he cannot > diagnose when plumbing makes noises, doesn't flow correctly or even > backflows. > > That is my opinion. Maybe I am out to lunch, but has anyone seen any > language that didn't access memory? > > Regards, > Les H That's nice, but starting with the pointers is not good, I guess and hope as to learn pointeers, the things prior to pointers should be well grasped and someone told me, e.g., arrays and loops. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Depends on how you mean this. > > "C" is not the "best programming language", but it's a good choice as means > to learn. > > Ralf > Yeah, that's what i meant a good choice! -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Cameron Simpson wrote: I would strongly recommend Python over C for learning to program. > > The syntax is very clean and clear (unlike Perl, which is visually very > noisy); it is nearly like writing out and English language description > of your code and watching it run. > > There are no fiddly memory management things (unlike C, where strings > are fixed length memory arrays, and there are many pitfalls). > > The documentation is pretty good (see docs.python.org). > > Of course later you will want to learn other things to do particular > things or just to use other paradigms. > > I would not recommend Perl for learning. And I used to write a lot of Perl. > > I do suggest you learn a little about the UNIX shell (bash, ksh, sh, > zsh; all dialects of the core scripting language "sh"); being able to > write simple pipelines and shell control structures (for loops, file > patterns etc) is very useful. > > Cheers, > -- > Cameron Simpson So Python is really good and I was not wrong! But people suggested me C are not wrong as C is more close to the metal and the machine, that is for sure. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 2:25 AM, James Mckenzie wrote: > Thank you for the pointer. This will go on the low priority 'to do' list. > Probably, after having grasped the basics. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michael Hennebry < henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote: I'd go with python as the default language for anything > that doesn't require speed or access to the metal. > For a beginner, python has the bonus that > indentation is part of the syntax. > > For speed, one can use C, fortran, java, C++ or assembly. > For access to the metal, one can use C, C++ or assembly. > With the right kind of linker tricks, I suspect one could also use fortran. > > At my current job, I program in C and assembly for AVRs. > My first program here was in python. > It replaced a venerable perl program. > The venerable wouldn't run after a perl interpreter update. > > Defaults aside, the choice of language can be strongly > influenced by the additives available. > Some of my current python code uses > a serial IO library and a GUI library. > Without them, I might have chosen differently. > Perl is noted for having lots of additives available. > > -- > Michael > Yes, C is a rich and old language but Python is not that bad, but I know perl is replacing that. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 2:00 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote: C is one of the richest languages ever, and was at the time of the first > standard (I was GE's rep to X3J11), and recent additions have made it even > more > powerful. > I like C for systems work, although I use a lot more bash than I used to. > > -- > Bill Davidsen > Yes, C is more close to the machine (meta;, as someone quoted earlier) and is the fundamental language. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:47 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
You can buy them on Amazon. I like the SAMS "Learn {something} in 24 hours"
> books, they expect an hour a day for 24 days, not read until your head
> explodes.
>
> --
> Bill Davidsen
>
But I would prefer to a book store at first.
--
Regards,
Parshwa Murdia
--
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Re: About programing, a general question
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote: The first thing you need to understand is that a programming language is a > *tool*, and after four decades of programming I can tell you that choosing > the > right tool makes the job vastly easier. C is great for operating systems > and > tools and has good data types, perl is an example of a language without > types, > and can do strings and light networking stuff quite well. In general > assembler > is so seldom used that other than (maybe) device drivers, device drivers, > test > software, and similar you can skip it. > > Beware learning one "best" language, if you only have a hammer everything > has to > be a nail. Currently I think C++ is most likely to have fanboys who think > it > does everything, but there are lots of others, and when someone says > "there's a > trick for that," it often means the language doesn't provide an obvious > tool to > do what you want. > > Since you asked, one language: perl, three: add C and javascript. Read some > FORTRAN and COBOL programs to see how they work, you don't need to write > for > them. I never found Ada to be the best tool for anything, although I wrote > about > 5k lines of it one year because a contract required it. Who better than a > political science major with an MBA to pick programming languages? > > Good luck. > > -- > Bill Davidsen > Thanks Bill, I think C/C++ as according to you. -- Regards, Parshwa Murdia -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
