Re: Fedora Users responsibility to Developers [scratch] Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Fri, 2011-09-30 at 08:56 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote: > I wish I had any evidence that developers listen to the suggestions you > want to send them. I have seen no such evidence. I would assume most of > the people on this list are well aware of the difficulty of programming > secure and "foolproof" programs. Although "foolproof" programs don't > exist. bugzilla The package owner has to look at the bug report at some point, even if he chooses to do nothing about it... that's sort of evidence in its own way. But eventually it has to be cleared. A good bugzilla report almost always is acted on. You can't 'foolproof' or 'idiot proof' anything - idiots always improve their tactics. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Fedora Users responsibility to Developers [scratch] Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 20:15 -0700, jdow wrote:
> 1) Respect
>
> Writing software is not the slam dunk simple thing most people seem to
> think it to be based on their whining and carping. Please respect the
> effort. Dive in and try something simple yourself. A most interesting
> language is 2 year old child. Try to program one to make his room neat
> before he goes to bed. Discover you cannot leave out steps despite it
> being Such An Obvious Thing To Do "why do I have to spell it out?"
>
> 2) Accurate, clear, concise bug reports to help with debugging
>
> "It doesn't work!" "It's crap!" "It a piece of !"
>
> Those do not help one bit.
>
> "If I do X followed by Y and Z the program throws a seg fault with this
> data set and this stack back trace." That can REALLY help. Even the first
> part helps without the stack back trace.
>
> "If I do A followed by B followed by C it seems to give me the wrong
> results, the file I was trying to copy appears in the wrong directory
> with a full path name of "/foo/bar/baz/brokenfile" instead of something
> like "/home/foo/bar/baz/brokenfile"." That can really help, too.
>
> Tell the developer what is wrong, how to create the problem, and any
> other symptoms noticed. And please do it without invective.
>
> Open Source developers work for less than peanuts, in most cases. Even
> when paid for it developers still need some ego stroking. Show your
> appreciation for their time taken by exercising item 1 on this list.
>
> 3) Clear and concise enhancement requests
>
> "ThwibblePwik is pretty good and would be better if you allowed the user
> to reorder, add to, and redefine its menu selection under the Farbling
> header." You're not telling the developer it's a piece of crap that
> could only be saved by a complete rewrite and by damnit it better be
> done tomorrow. You're suggesting an honest improvement, in an item 1
> respectful fashion.
>
> 4) Help
>
> "The documentation for Pwizzle sucks!" turns the developer off completely.
> Furthermore darned few developers can document for users at all well. (If
> you find one please let me know. {^_-}) That statement declares you have
> found at least one serious deficiency. You don't have to be a genius to
> look through, say the TigerVNC (what documentation?) support list, and
> collect the details that seem to leave users lost and write the fine
> manual rather than decry its absence. If you can't help write the manual
> at least try to be polite and probably less snarky than my sideways
> comment about TigerVNC above. Encourage somebody to take up the cause and
> produce the document. Help him find errors. Do some good.
>
> 5) When a problem you defined is fixed, offer up some thanks. Normally that
> would be the only coin you could offer the developers. That makes it really
> valuable. If you can care enough to contribute, I suspect you can find a
> way to drop a coin or two on the project to help finance the development or
> even a simple developer's party at a convention.
>
> 6) I am sure the Fedora developers could flesh this out with many more
> turn-offs that lead to poor enthusiasm and poorly developed programs.
> Listen to them, and other developers, when one of us decides, "I've
> listened to enough stinky stuff. I've had enough. I'm outa here."
>
> {^_^}
I wish I had any evidence that developers listen to the suggestions you
want to send them. I have seen no such evidence. I would assume most of
the people on this list are well aware of the difficulty of programming
secure and "foolproof" programs. Although "foolproof" programs don't
exist.
--
===
RELATIVES!!
===
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net
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Fedora Users responsibility to Developers [scratch] Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
1) Respect
Writing software is not the slam dunk simple thing most people seem to
think it to be based on their whining and carping. Please respect the
effort. Dive in and try something simple yourself. A most interesting
language is 2 year old child. Try to program one to make his room neat
before he goes to bed. Discover you cannot leave out steps despite it
being Such An Obvious Thing To Do "why do I have to spell it out?"
2) Accurate, clear, concise bug reports to help with debugging
"It doesn't work!" "It's crap!" "It a piece of !"
Those do not help one bit.
"If I do X followed by Y and Z the program throws a seg fault with this
data set and this stack back trace." That can REALLY help. Even the first
part helps without the stack back trace.
"If I do A followed by B followed by C it seems to give me the wrong
results, the file I was trying to copy appears in the wrong directory
with a full path name of "/foo/bar/baz/brokenfile" instead of something
like "/home/foo/bar/baz/brokenfile"." That can really help, too.
Tell the developer what is wrong, how to create the problem, and any
other symptoms noticed. And please do it without invective.
Open Source developers work for less than peanuts, in most cases. Even
when paid for it developers still need some ego stroking. Show your
appreciation for their time taken by exercising item 1 on this list.
3) Clear and concise enhancement requests
"ThwibblePwik is pretty good and would be better if you allowed the user
to reorder, add to, and redefine its menu selection under the Farbling
header." You're not telling the developer it's a piece of crap that
could only be saved by a complete rewrite and by damnit it better be
done tomorrow. You're suggesting an honest improvement, in an item 1
respectful fashion.
4) Help
"The documentation for Pwizzle sucks!" turns the developer off completely.
Furthermore darned few developers can document for users at all well. (If
you find one please let me know. {^_-}) That statement declares you have
found at least one serious deficiency. You don't have to be a genius to
look through, say the TigerVNC (what documentation?) support list, and
collect the details that seem to leave users lost and write the fine
manual rather than decry its absence. If you can't help write the manual
at least try to be polite and probably less snarky than my sideways
comment about TigerVNC above. Encourage somebody to take up the cause and
produce the document. Help him find errors. Do some good.
5) When a problem you defined is fixed, offer up some thanks. Normally that
would be the only coin you could offer the developers. That makes it really
valuable. If you can care enough to contribute, I suspect you can find a
way to drop a coin or two on the project to help finance the development or
even a simple developer's party at a convention.
6) I am sure the Fedora developers could flesh this out with many more
turn-offs that lead to poor enthusiasm and poorly developed programs.
Listen to them, and other developers, when one of us decides, "I've
listened to enough stinky stuff. I've had enough. I'm outa here."
{^_^}
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Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 18:08 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/29/2011 12:27 PM, Craig White wrote: > > On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 10:46 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > >>> I vaguely recall the mantra... it's not a bug if it's not in bugzilla - > >>> does that not apply any more? > >> > >> Huh? > > > > are you that new to RH and Linux? > > No. I've been here for a long time. Longer than almost everyone > else, as it happens. Your question seemed to be a non sequitur: AFAIK > the complaints about missing buttons etc are indeed in Bugzilla. So I > don't know why you made that point. check with Bill Nottingham then. If it ain't in bugzilla then it's not a bug. That's always been the active theory. I can't imagine that this has actually changed. Griping on the users list is nothing more than griping on the users list. It's not a bugizlla entry. There's little hope that anything will actually occur from griping on the users list other than introducing a lot of noise, chatter and negativity. If you feel that griping on the users list has a constructive purpose, then so be it. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/30/2011 07:55 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > These repetitions exist because each party perceives "the other > side" not to listen, react, show insight, understand, etc. We can understand each other and still genuinely have a difference of opinion and approach. If you are around in the free software world, you learn to appreciate the diversity of perspectives. You can't win a argument by repeating yourself endlessly. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 19:03 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 29.09.2011 19:00, schrieb Joe Zeff: > > On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: > >> I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various > >> users lists. > > > > They don't want to know what users think of their work? > > many developers are not interested in their users and are using > "it's free and i do what i want" as answers because they write > the stuff for their own needs without thinking what damage they > do with their "technical perfect solutions if the things are > finished somewhere in time" and do not give any thoughts about > the question if their current work is in a public useable state sort of - yes Why on earth would I want to spend my time doing something other than what I want to do with my time? To make you happy? Don't be delusional. Your declaration of 'usable' is clearly argumentative. If the software clearly doesn't work, it is either fixed or dropped from distribution. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 10:00 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: > > I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various > > users lists. > > They don't want to know what users think of their work? Presuming that we are talking about the general developer and not specifically GNOME... Most of the developers abandoned the main 'users' lists for all the Linux distributions years ago. There's really little purpose to get sucked into the negativity that seems to prevail by a small percentage of the posters. They read bugzilla reports. They participate on the developers list. For the most part, I think they know what people are saying. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/30/2011 03:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 09/30/2011 01:04 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > >> >> i answered to "As a contributor, one real problem for me is the >> amount of noise one has to filter through to get any meaningful >> feedback" which came from a contributor which did NOT understand >> why so many complaints are coming > > As a contributor for a very long time, I understand just fine but I am > afraid you repeating your own opinions all the time without any real > discussions or understanding of the other perspectives isn't really > helping the discussions in any way. Rahul, don't you realize that what you say applies mutually? These repetitions exist because each party perceives "the other side" not to listen, react, show insight, understand, etc. ... in other words, because the issues behind these complaints/conflicts are not being addressed, but being "postponed", "sit out", "played down" in one or the other way. It's like in real life, people will continue to protest, demonstrate until a problem is resolved or things escalate in one or the other way. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/30/2011 01:04 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > i answered to "As a contributor, one real problem for me is the > amount of noise one has to filter through to get any meaningful > feedback" which came from a contributor which did NOT understand > why so many complaints are coming As a contributor for a very long time, I understand just fine but I am afraid you repeating your own opinions all the time without any real discussions or understanding of the other perspectives isn't really helping the discussions in any way. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Am 29.09.2011 21:29, schrieb Olav Vitters: > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 07:09:39PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote: >> maybe developers should spent some thougts in which state they replace >> working >> solutions with often really good ideas that are not ready for endusers > > Suggest also not telling again and again what other people should do as long as other people decide in what state software comes to me i suggest whatever i want > Also, I understood most arguments many messages ago as long i have not answered to you it does not matter what you understodd to you i answered to "As a contributor, one real problem for me is the amount of noise one has to filter through to get any meaningful feedback" which came from a contributor which did NOT understand why so many complaints are coming if i do not want complaints i have to learn WHY they are coming not the complaints are the problem, they are only the reaction of problems introduced before signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 07:09:39PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote: > maybe developers should spent some thougts in which state they replace working > solutions with often really good ideas that are not ready for endusers Suggest also not telling again and again what other people should do. Also, I understood most arguments many messages ago. -- Regards, Olav -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Am 29.09.2011 19:03, schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > On 09/29/2011 10:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: >> On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: >>> I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various >>> users lists. >> >> They don't want to know what users think of their work? > > As a contributor, one real problem for me is the amount of noise one has > to filter through to get any meaningful feedback. If one wants to read > through all the mails and forum discussions etc, no new development will > happen maybe developers should spent some thougts in which state they replace working solutions with often really good ideas that are not ready for endusers after making replacements doing the job of the existing solutions really well AND bring new improvements they users can see their wouldn't be so much complaints the whole time giving me a replacement which have a POTENTIAL to make things really better over the long but have weakness in what is currently used does not help me why? because i lose working things and hear only about improvements in the future this can satifsy only users with a passion to play with their system without having really work to do with it signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Am 29.09.2011 19:00, schrieb Joe Zeff: > On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: >> I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various >> users lists. > > They don't want to know what users think of their work? many developers are not interested in their users and are using "it's free and i do what i want" as answers because they write the stuff for their own needs without thinking what damage they do with their "technical perfect solutions if the things are finished somewhere in time" and do not give any thoughts about the question if their current work is in a public useable state signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 29 September 2011 06:04, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > This discussion and others before have made it obvious that Gnome is a > Cathedral governed by the absolute devine powers of its bishops and popes. > If you must keep repeating this then please spell divine correctly, it is beginning to get annoying. -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 12:27 PM, Craig White wrote: > On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 10:46 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >> On 09/29/2011 02:02 AM, Craig White wrote: >>> On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 15:15 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >> I think you're missing the point. A major goal of any leading-edge distro is to get feedback from users on new features. In other words, getting negative feedback from users isn't a bug, it's a feature. >>> >>> sure - but let's not confuse excessive vocalizations by 15 people or so >>> to represent a significant percentage. >> >> We don't have any real way to figure out how representative complaints >> are. We can only act on what we hear: the squeaky wheel is the one >> that gets the grease, as ever. > > I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various > users lists. I don't know why you think that. I don't know that few developers monitor the various users lists, either. >>> I vaguely recall the mantra... it's not a bug if it's not in bugzilla - >>> does that not apply any more? >> >> Huh? > > are you that new to RH and Linux? No. I've been here for a long time. Longer than almost everyone else, as it happens. Your question seemed to be a non sequitur: AFAIK the complaints about missing buttons etc are indeed in Bugzilla. So I don't know why you made that point. >>> Then of course, there's feedback appropriateness... perhaps you should >>> earmark a bugzilla page, a wiki page or a forum page for sound off >>> because the same people griping about the same things over and over >>> again on the mail list really denigrates the usefulness of the mail >>> list. >> >> You and I don't get to decide how other people complain. They're free >> to complain in any way they want. If they think they're being ignored >> in one forum they'll find another. All that we can decide is how we >> respond to their complaints. > > OK - respond I respond to complaints about the stuff *I* work on, as I said just a few messages ago. I don't work on GNOME. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 10:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: >> I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various >> users lists. > > They don't want to know what users think of their work? As a contributor, one real problem for me is the amount of noise one has to filter through to get any meaningful feedback. If one wants to read through all the mails and forum discussions etc, no new development will happen. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 04:27 AM, Craig White wrote: > I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various > users lists. They don't want to know what users think of their work? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thursday 29 September 2011 17:06:16 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 09/29/2011 05:02 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, > > you depend on libgnome. > > > > And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very > > happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my > > dreams. > > libgnome is a deprecated library and there is ongoing effort within the > GTK project with a number of Red Hat developers involved consolidating > code into GTK. So you can expect this to happen over time > > https://live.gnome.org/ProjectRidley Wow, that's great news! :-) Thanks for the link! Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 05:02 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, you > depend on libgnome. > > And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very > happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my dreams. libgnome is a deprecated library and there is ongoing effort within the GTK project with a number of Red Hat developers involved consolidating code into GTK. So you can expect this to happen over time https://live.gnome.org/ProjectRidley Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 03:52:26PM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > > > The challenge then is to upgrade the Gnome 2 code to use the newer > > > > libraries. > > > > > > Which is essentially impossible without *a* *lot* of coding. IIUC, this > > > is why Gnome3 has been rewritten from scratch, instead of repairing old > > > Gnome2 code. > > > > Nobody ever said software development was easy or without challenges. > > My original statement was in response to what Terry Barnaby asked --- why > doesn't someone repackage the old Gnome2 and make it available in Fedora? And > my response was that it is not just up to rebuilding srpms, because that code > will conflict with current Fedora. Right, and I agree it's not just a repackage-and-ship process. > My whole point is that it takes way more work than just doing a rebuild, and > therefore is not feasible. What's not feasible? It's not _easy_, and is going to require some committed developers to work on it. But's hardly impossible: it's just going to take someone to GSD. > > > IOW, nobody will make this happen. > > > > Then I think Kubler-Ross says you should accept things and move on. > > Oh, I have absolutely no problem accepting the new-and-shiny Gnome3. :-) I'm > a > happy KDE user since RedHat 6.2 days, and after the whole KDE4.0 bitching by > some number of people on this list some time ago, it's a certain satisfaction > to see the same thing happening to Gnome-lovers now. Some of those people > have > been advocating Gnome as being much better than KDE back in the time of > havoc, > and now the same thing is happening to them... ;-) > > I just wonder if the same thing will happen to XFCE and LXDE in the future. > I'd love to see the reaction of the people then! ;-) I'm of the same mind there. I was a KDE user for a long time and was glad to have my boat rocked when 4 was released. After the initial learning curve was overcome I was right back where I wanted to be with getting my work done, which is the whole point of the computer in the first place. > > > So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, > > > you depend on libgnome. > > > > > > And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very > > > happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my > > > dreams. ;-) > > > > Okay, then. So in the above 4 cases (not reall "a lot") I would say the > > challenge is to keep them in sync with the newer (or older) libgnome. > > Perhaps provide a compatibility layer? > > I think it would be much wiser to abstract out the UI part of those packages > to make them compatible with Qt as well as GTK, and otherwise to remove any > DE > dependence. Providing a compatibility layer or keeping them in sync with > libgnome would be patching up a wrong solution to the problem, not to mention > the wasted coding effort. Well, a compatibility layer would be the foundation for abstracting out the desktop GUI dependencies, isn't it? Once there's a layer that lets the Gnome2-dependent apps talk to Gnome3, then it can be modified to work with other GUI libraries, right? -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgp8IfyyF84l9.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thursday 29 September 2011 14:55:32 Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:32:58PM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > > > Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of > > > > the fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to > > > > "rebuild and release" it. Gnome 2 and 3 use different versions of > > > > the same set of libraries, and cannot coexist on the same system > > > > easily. > > > > > > The challenge then is to upgrade the Gnome 2 code to use the newer > > > libraries. > > > > Which is essentially impossible without *a* *lot* of coding. IIUC, this > > is why Gnome3 has been rewritten from scratch, instead of repairing old > > Gnome2 code. > > Nobody ever said software development was easy or without challenges. My original statement was in response to what Terry Barnaby asked --- why doesn't someone repackage the old Gnome2 and make it available in Fedora? And my response was that it is not just up to rebuilding srpms, because that code will conflict with current Fedora. My whole point is that it takes way more work than just doing a rebuild, and therefore is not feasible. > > IOW, nobody will make this happen. > > Then I think Kubler-Ross says you should accept things and move on. Oh, I have absolutely no problem accepting the new-and-shiny Gnome3. :-) I'm a happy KDE user since RedHat 6.2 days, and after the whole KDE4.0 bitching by some number of people on this list some time ago, it's a certain satisfaction to see the same thing happening to Gnome-lovers now. Some of those people have been advocating Gnome as being much better than KDE back in the time of havoc, and now the same thing is happening to them... ;-) I just wonder if the same thing will happen to XFCE and LXDE in the future. I'd love to see the reaction of the people then! ;-) > > So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, > > you depend on libgnome. > > > > And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very > > happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my > > dreams. ;-) > > Okay, then. So in the above 4 cases (not reall "a lot") I would say the > challenge is to keep them in sync with the newer (or older) libgnome. > Perhaps provide a compatibility layer? I think it would be much wiser to abstract out the UI part of those packages to make them compatible with Qt as well as GTK, and otherwise to remove any DE dependence. Providing a compatibility layer or keeping them in sync with libgnome would be patching up a wrong solution to the problem, not to mention the wasted coding effort. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:32:58PM +0100, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > > Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of the > > > fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to "rebuild and > > > release" it. Gnome 2 and 3 use different versions of the same set of > > > libraries, and cannot coexist on the same system easily. > > > > The challenge then is to upgrade the Gnome 2 code to use the newer > > libraries. > > Which is essentially impossible without *a* *lot* of coding. IIUC, this is > why > Gnome3 has been rewritten from scratch, instead of repairing old Gnome2 code. Nobody ever said software development was easy or without challenges. > IOW, nobody will make this happen. Then I think Kubler-Ross says you should accept things and move on. > > > And Fedora > > > has a lot of Gnome3 dependencies, even if you do not install Gnome3 > > > itself. > > > > Such as? > > Well, I'm still on F14 on this machine, but I doubt there is a serious > difference in F15... Anyway, there is no need to look too much: > > # yum remove libgnome > [snip lots of irrelevant stuff] > Removing: > libgnome > Removing for dependencies: > krb5-auth-dialog > policycoreutils-gui > system-config-lvm > system-config-network > > The above is on a F14 machine installed from a Live KDE spin (or maybe I > dragged it in later when realizing I don't have the above stuff...). > > So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, you > depend on libgnome. > > And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very > happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my dreams. > ;-) Okay, then. So in the above 4 cases (not reall "a lot") I would say the challenge is to keep them in sync with the newer (or older) libgnome. Perhaps provide a compatibility layer? -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpZecdQI1szf.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 10:46 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/29/2011 02:02 AM, Craig White wrote: > > On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 15:15 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > > >> I think you're missing the point. A major goal of any leading-edge > >> distro is to get feedback from users on new features. In other words, > >> getting negative feedback from users isn't a bug, it's a feature. > > > > sure - but let's not confuse excessive vocalizations by 15 people or so > > to represent a significant percentage. > > We don't have any real way to figure out how representative complaints > are. We can only act on what we hear: the squeaky wheel is the one > that gets the grease, as ever. I think you are now understanding why few developers monitor the various users lists. > > > I vaguely recall the mantra... it's not a bug if it's not in bugzilla - > > does that not apply any more? > > Huh? are you that new to RH and Linux? > > > Then of course, there's feedback appropriateness... perhaps you should > > earmark a bugzilla page, a wiki page or a forum page for sound off > > because the same people griping about the same things over and over > > again on the mail list really denigrates the usefulness of the mail > > list. > > You and I don't get to decide how other people complain. They're free > to complain in any way they want. If they think they're being ignored > in one forum they'll find another. All that we can decide is how we > respond to their complaints. OK - respond Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 11:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > * How to get rid of gdm and what to replace it with? > Gdm had always been a major nuissance, which had never worked > flawlessly, so I am inclined to use switching to xfce as an oportunty to > get rid of it, as well. > I switched to KDM a while back - works fine for me just put it in to /etc/sysconfig/desktop DISPLAYMANAGER="KDE" gene/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wednesday 28 September 2011 13:48:09 Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 08:26:27AM +0200, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Terry Barnaby wrote: > > > But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > > > someone, who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for > > > F15 (with a different package name) ? > > > > Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of the > > fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to "rebuild and > > release" it. Gnome 2 and 3 use different versions of the same set of > > libraries, and cannot coexist on the same system easily. > > The challenge then is to upgrade the Gnome 2 code to use the newer > libraries. Which is essentially impossible without *a* *lot* of coding. IIUC, this is why Gnome3 has been rewritten from scratch, instead of repairing old Gnome2 code. IOW, nobody will make this happen. > > And Fedora > > has a lot of Gnome3 dependencies, even if you do not install Gnome3 > > itself. > > Such as? Well, I'm still on F14 on this machine, but I doubt there is a serious difference in F15... Anyway, there is no need to look too much: # yum remove libgnome [snip lots of irrelevant stuff] Removing: libgnome Removing for dependencies: krb5-auth-dialog policycoreutils-gui system-config-lvm system-config-network The above is on a F14 machine installed from a Live KDE spin (or maybe I dragged it in later when realizing I don't have the above stuff...). So if you want a GUI for Kerberos, SELinux, LVM or network management, you depend on libgnome. And if those packages do not depend on Gnome in F15 or F16, I'll be very happily surprised. Having a gnome-free install of Fedora is one of my dreams. ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 13:15 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > All I want to know is > > When will the 4th thread start, replete with the same characters, the > same opinions and the same everything? I think that comes with GNOME 4 - this is only GNOME 3 > I wish there were a way to predict the Subject so I could pre-block it. > :-) :-) :-) yum install evolution-clairvoyance-plugin (oops, I see you are using TB... ) Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 02:02 AM, Craig White wrote: > On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 15:15 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >> I think you're missing the point. A major goal of any leading-edge >> distro is to get feedback from users on new features. In other words, >> getting negative feedback from users isn't a bug, it's a feature. > > sure - but let's not confuse excessive vocalizations by 15 people or so > to represent a significant percentage. We don't have any real way to figure out how representative complaints are. We can only act on what we hear: the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease, as ever. > I vaguely recall the mantra... it's not a bug if it's not in bugzilla - > does that not apply any more? Huh? > Then of course, there's feedback appropriateness... perhaps you should > earmark a bugzilla page, a wiki page or a forum page for sound off > because the same people griping about the same things over and over > again on the mail list really denigrates the usefulness of the mail > list. You and I don't get to decide how other people complain. They're free to complain in any way they want. If they think they're being ignored in one forum they'll find another. All that we can decide is how we respond to their complaints. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
All I want to know is When will the 4th thread start, replete with the same characters, the same opinions and the same everything? I wish there were a way to predict the Subject so I could pre-block it. :-) :-) :-) (The position of this comment should in no way infer any opinion or bias of previous comments or commentators.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 03:06 AM, Craig White wrote: > On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:12 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> On 09/28/2011 01:37 PM, Craig White wrote: >> >>> Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, >>> still under development should probably be using something stable like >>> RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other >>> than Fedora. >> Pardon, I had not intended to furtherly extend this thread, but now you >> provoking it. >> >> "Prepared for new SW" doesn't mean to swallow all mash being presented >> and to uncritically welcome everything new as "brilliant novelty", but >> also to make up personal opinions on such SW and to influence the system >> as part of the evolutionary process which has made Linux up to date. >> >> That said, I do not swallow the Gnome folks' claim to have implemented a >> "revolutionary new approach". IMO, their works, when thinking about them >> benevolently, at best is an early stage of a case study, which still has >> to prove its viability. > > indeed it's early in the process of GNOME 3 Ever heard about projects gone crazy, being ruined by predominating parties or leaders having lost contact to their users? History is full of such stories. > ever heard of release early and often? Yes. Applicable when it comes to gradual development. Only apply applicable for redesigns of a system's key components, when the new design can be installed in parallel. > ever read the Cathedral and the Bazaar? This discussion and others before have made it obvious that Gnome is a Cathedral governed by the absolute devine powers of its bishops and popes. > Maybe GNOME 3 will be a dismal failure or maybe it will be the the cat's > meow but likely it will end up being something in between and certain > not to be loved by everyone. It won't be a failure, because the driving forces behind it will not allow it to fail. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/29/2011 03:29 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:26:44 +0200 > Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >> On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote: >> >>> yum groupinstall "XFCE" >>> set your desktop at gdm Remark: I am still using F14 as regular OS, however I have F15 testing installations (not in regular use) on 2 testing machines. >> - EFAIL screensaver > > --verbose? 1) On machine #1, xscreensaver never "blackens" the screen, but continues infinitely. It tried to tweak its settings, but no success so far. 2) On machine #1 (a netbook with intel GPU), after many hours (could be either 12 or 24 hrs) of xscreensaver activity, the machines "deep freezes" (no local nor remote login possible, Alt-F doesn't react) - Of course, this issue could be caused by something else, but fact is it only happens when xscreensaver is active. On machine #2 (a ca 10 years old PIII w/ a ca. 6 years old nvidia GPU), xscreensaver dumps core after some time. My wild guess would be issues with GL, because Gnome3 crashes immediately and Gnome3/fallback also crashes after some hours. F14/Gnome2 had worked flawlessly. > Hopefully you aren't trying to use gnome-screensaver. > xscreensaver should work fine. It's xscreensaver. >> - EFAIL set desktop background > > Works fine here. OK, I will try to recheck - May-be I missed something or may-be something has changed. >> - EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing) > > That issue affects gnome-terminal, and yes, there's a fix in testing. > Xfce Terminal works fine and always has. ;) After ca. 10 years of using Gnome, I so far prefer using gnome-terminal and am trying to stay with nautilus w/ xfce :) >> - Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop. > > There's been some reports of this. I have been unable to isolate it. > Somehow the window manager crashes on logout and the session gets saved > without it. There's an upstream bug open on it... more information > welcome. OK. I also can't reproduce it deterministically. Two other issues, I haven't mentioned yet: * xfce's interaction with NetworkManager. The NM configuration I was using under F14/Gnome2 and F15/Gnome3 did not work with F15/xfce. I had to change it to get it working with xfce. * How to get rid of gdm and what to replace it with? Gdm had always been a major nuissance, which had never worked flawlessly, so I am inclined to use switching to xfce as an oportunty to get rid of it, as well. >>> End of problem >> >> Start of new problems ;) > > Sadly, all software has issues. ;) Inevitably ;) Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:26:44 +0200 Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > > > yum groupinstall "XFCE" > > set your desktop at gdm > > - EFAIL screensaver --verbose? Hopefully you aren't trying to use gnome-screensaver. xscreensaver should work fine. > - EFAIL set desktop background Works fine here. > - EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing) That issue affects gnome-terminal, and yes, there's a fix in testing. Xfce Terminal works fine and always has. ;) > - Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop. There's been some reports of this. I have been unable to isolate it. Somehow the window manager crashes on logout and the session gets saved without it. There's an upstream bug open on it... more information welcome. > > End of problem > > Start of new problems ;) Sadly, all software has issues. ;) kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 16:26 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > > > yum groupinstall "XFCE" > > set your desktop at gdm > > - EFAIL screensaver > - EFAIL set desktop background > - EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing) > - Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop. > > > End of problem > > Start of new problems ;) hopefully you made bug reports Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:12 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/28/2011 01:37 PM, Craig White wrote: > > > Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, > > still under development should probably be using something stable like > > RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other > > than Fedora. > Pardon, I had not intended to furtherly extend this thread, but now you > provoking it. > > "Prepared for new SW" doesn't mean to swallow all mash being presented > and to uncritically welcome everything new as "brilliant novelty", but > also to make up personal opinions on such SW and to influence the system > as part of the evolutionary process which has made Linux up to date. > > That said, I do not swallow the Gnome folks' claim to have implemented a > "revolutionary new approach". IMO, their works, when thinking about them > benevolently, at best is an early stage of a case study, which still has > to prove its viability. indeed it's early in the process of GNOME 3 ever heard of release early and often? ever read the Cathedral and the Bazaar? Maybe GNOME 3 will be a dismal failure or maybe it will be the the cat's meow but likely it will end up being something in between and certain not to be loved by everyone. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 15:15 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/28/2011 12:37 PM, Craig White wrote: > > On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 11:39 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > >> No, but I think the controversy around GNOME 3 is of a different order > >> from what we've seen before. This is not just the usual bunch of > >> complaints. > > > > because you say so? > > > > seems to me exactly the same type of complaints when KDE 4 was released > > Perhaps so, but I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this. seems about the same to me but I don't have an Applause-O-Meter > > Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, > > still under development should probably be using something stable like > > I think you're missing the point. A major goal of any leading-edge > distro is to get feedback from users on new features. In other words, > getting negative feedback from users isn't a bug, it's a feature. sure - but let's not confuse excessive vocalizations by 15 people or so to represent a significant percentage. I vaguely recall the mantra... it's not a bug if it's not in bugzilla - does that not apply any more? > > > RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other > > than Fedora. If you are committed to using Fedora, you are committed to > > using it warts and all with the expectation that you are helping to > > drive the open source universe forward. > > If Fedora (and free software in general) is to improve then we need > feedback from users. That's how it has always worked, and how it's > supposed to work. We need people to complain when Fedora does things > they don't like. We actively solicit feedback, and we welcome it, > even if we don't like it. It's still quite unfinished and probably will be unfinished for some time - perhaps won't have a finished quality until well into F16 cycle. Then of course, there's feedback appropriateness... perhaps you should earmark a bugzilla page, a wiki page or a forum page for sound off because the same people griping about the same things over and over again on the mail list really denigrates the usefulness of the mail list. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Am 27.09.2011 23:30, schrieb Terry Barnaby: > I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. > But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > someone, > who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > different package name) ? because this is a lttile naive and has no future what problem do you think is a "simple rebuild" solving? "someone" can not maintain a whole desktop over the long signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 17:05 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Most people who complain about Gnome3 don't like its look'n'feel > and/or are missing certain functionalities, but like the Gnome2 > look'n'feel and/or certain functionalities. Or don't have the hardware to support its heavy baggage. I've never used KDE, beyond having a look and see, because I don't like how it works, *and* it's always been too much of a CPU load. Now, the same can be said about Gnome. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 05:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/28/2011 02:43 PM, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > >On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:34PM +0100, Terry Barnaby wrote: > >>I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. > >>But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > >>someone, > >>who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > >>different package name) ? > > IMO, that's a misperception: Most people who complain about Gnome3 > don't like its look'n'feel and/or are missing certain > functionalities, but like the Gnome2 look'n'feel and/or certain > functionalities. > That's entirely different from forking Gnome2. > > It's xfce's similarity to Gnome2, which makes xfce applicable as a > resort to them. > > >That's the open source way. Don't like Gnome 3? Then fork and maintain > >Gnome 2 and build a new project around it. If there are enough people > >who support such a move then a community will form around it. > > Alternatively, the Gnome folks finally start listening to their > users and bring back the old look'n'feel and at least some its > functionalties. And since the possibility of that happening is next to zero, we're back to "fork and support" for Gnome 2. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpYIoMwLGGZY.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 02:43 PM, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:34PM +0100, Terry Barnaby wrote: >> I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. >> But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't >> someone, >> who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a >> different package name) ? IMO, that's a misperception: Most people who complain about Gnome3 don't like its look'n'feel and/or are missing certain functionalities, but like the Gnome2 look'n'feel and/or certain functionalities. That's entirely different from forking Gnome2. It's xfce's similarity to Gnome2, which makes xfce applicable as a resort to them. > That's the open source way. Don't like Gnome 3? Then fork and maintain > Gnome 2 and build a new project around it. If there are enough people > who support such a move then a community will form around it. Alternatively, the Gnome folks finally start listening to their users and bring back the old look'n'feel and at least some its functionalties. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > yum groupinstall "XFCE" > set your desktop at gdm - EFAIL screensaver - EFAIL set desktop background - EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing) - Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop. > End of problem Start of new problems ;) Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 09:02:30AM -0400, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote: > amazingly freeing. Likewise, you can turn on focus follows mouse, but > if you do you will likely become frustrated with the experience. I have Focus-follows-mouse is just very bugyy in F15. It behaves better in 3.2 (F16), and hopefully it'll work nicely in 3.4. -- Regards, Olav -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 12:37 PM, Craig White wrote: > On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 11:39 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >> On 09/28/2011 11:12 AM, Craig White wrote: >>> Just look at the feedback on the new Macintosh OS X Lion or Windows 8 >>> preview... there is a lot of griping about the changes to the UI. It's >>> certain that regardless of the OS, changes to the UI will always raise a >>> bunch of complaints and the more drastic the changes, the louder the >>> complaints. That's not really surprising. >> >> No, but I think the controversy around GNOME 3 is of a different order >> from what we've seen before. This is not just the usual bunch of >> complaints. > > because you say so? > > seems to me exactly the same type of complaints when KDE 4 was released Perhaps so, but I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this. >> When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet >> to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem >> has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading >> developer who represents the views of many developers.) > > and Linux has a point of view that is entirely his own and certainly > valid for him. Why would you assert that his views represent anything > other than his views? Heck, he's typically involved in disagreement even > with kernel development and the kernel license so what's new here? This sort of feedback from any active developer shouldn't be ignored. Maintaining developer mindshare is important for Fedora. > Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, > still under development should probably be using something stable like I think you're missing the point. A major goal of any leading-edge distro is to get feedback from users on new features. In other words, getting negative feedback from users isn't a bug, it's a feature. > RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other > than Fedora. If you are committed to using Fedora, you are committed to > using it warts and all with the expectation that you are helping to > drive the open source universe forward. If Fedora (and free software in general) is to improve then we need feedback from users. That's how it has always worked, and how it's supposed to work. We need people to complain when Fedora does things they don't like. We actively solicit feedback, and we welcome it, even if we don't like it. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08:55PM +0900, Misha Shnurapet wrote: > 28.09.2011, 21:43, "Darryl L. Pierce" : > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:34PM +0100, Terry Barnaby wrote: > > > >> I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. > >> But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > >> someone, > >> who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > >> different package name) ? > > > > +1 > > > > That's the open source way. Don't like Gnome 3? Then fork and maintain > > Gnome 2 and build a new project around it. If there are enough people > > who support such a move then a community will form around it. > > The GNOME 3 issue is outside Fedora big time. Right, I wasn't suggesting that Fedora take on this task. That's why I said "a community will form around it ", referring to the Gnome 2 maintenance effort. > Inside Fedora there's choice should a user decide not to adhere to the course > of the GNOME Project. Yep: KDE, LXCE, etc. > The only responsibility out there is for timely bugfixes, because the most > annoying bugs often mean no alternative. > > I'm a proud user of GNOME 3 and Fedora and I will continue to use these > together. As am I. I love the interface and find myself enjoying it as I work. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpaXzIqfJbhQ.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
28.09.2011, 21:43, "Darryl L. Pierce" : > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:34PM +0100, Terry Barnaby wrote: > >> I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. >> But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't >> someone, >> who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a >> different package name) ? > > +1 > > That's the open source way. Don't like Gnome 3? Then fork and maintain > Gnome 2 and build a new project around it. If there are enough people > who support such a move then a community will form around it. The GNOME 3 issue is outside Fedora big time. Inside Fedora there's choice should a user decide not to adhere to the course of the GNOME Project. The only responsibility out there is for timely bugfixes, because the most annoying bugs often mean no alternative. I'm a proud user of GNOME 3 and Fedora and I will continue to use these together. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
> Open source is GREAT, but developers must remember > that the cost (time and $) to move from one version to another > is very low Most of the Gnome developers probably are not Fedora users anyway, and why should they care which distro people use ? Similarly from a commercial perspective 'what's the business case ?' As to distro switching - yes it isn't hard, and the desktop switching option in Fedora is even easier. yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm End of problem Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 05:55 AM, Misha Shnurapet wrote: > It is known that Red Hat makes money from RHEL. RHEL releases are > mostly snapshot Fedora. And for the community to be willing to > contribute to Fedora, it must receive something back. Specifically, > a free desktop operating system that they like (or, which is better, > adore). When people are not happy, they stop contributing. As a data point: I came to Fedora, and love it, in large part *because* of Gnome Shell. There were other reasons as well, and my appreciation for Gnome Shell is partially in contrast to Unity, but Gnome 3 with its shell got me using Fedora. I quite enjoy the experience, and am now contributing to the OCaml-related packages. I've also been recommending Fedora to people who aren't happy with Ubuntu's direction. I'm just one person, but the the reaction to F15 isn't entirely disillusionment. It's gained one user and now packager here. - Michael -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 08:32 AM, Wade Hampton wrote: > Additional data points that might add to the flames: > > 1) I have a co-worker new to Linux. He tried F15 and hated it, > then went back to F14. I believe WinXP/Vista/7 users > trying Linux for the first time ARE confused by F15/Gnome3. > > 2) Other friends/co-workers have moved to Ubuntu for their > desktop and only use RHEL/CentOS for servers (No Fedora). > > 3) It took me hours to get my F15 laptop sane including > finding obscure settings to turn on the minimize in > windows, and a working printer configuration application. > I have largely stayed out of these conversations, but I would just like to interject that I have had exactly the opposite experience. I love Gnome 3 and would be frustrated if I had to go back to anything like Gnome 2 or any other environment I have used before. I will be the first to admit that things are not complete yet, but I really feel that people who are complaining about any sort of design issues are missing the point. The basic user interactions baked into Gnome 3 tend to be much easier for me and a lot of complaints I see come from users actively fighting to use the interface in a way that it was not intended. For instance, there really is no need to minimize a window with Gnome 3. I know it sounds condescending to say that, and you can feel free to feel insulted by me, the Gnome devs and God herself if you want, but once I got the hang of it, never having to manage minimized windows was amazingly freeing. Likewise, you can turn on focus follows mouse, but if you do you will likely become frustrated with the experience. I have used focus follows mouse for over 20 years prior to Gnome 3, and it was one of the thing that made using X based desktops a joy for me, but I've been running for about 1 month with click to focus and I don't miss focus follows mouse one bit. Gnome 3 might really irritate you, or might be specifically bad for your particular use cases, and I completely understand if you want to continue with the desktop metaphors that have served you well in the past, but that does not mean it will be a general failure. Sure, there is a bit of a learning curve, and I installed it on my machines to get the hang of it before putting it on anything that anyone else will use, but it only takes about 15 minutes to run through the changes with someone sitting in front of the computer for them to get the hang of it. That being said, I share your pain on the printer setup, and I really hope that gets easier. Woogie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 08:26:27AM +0200, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Terry Barnaby wrote: > > But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > > someone, > > who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > > different package name) ? > > Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of the > fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to "rebuild and > release" it. Gnome 2 and 3 use different versions of the same set of > libraries, and cannot coexist on the same system easily. The challenge then is to upgrade the Gnome 2 code to use the newer libraries. > And Fedora > has a lot of Gnome3 dependencies, even if you do not install Gnome3 > itself. Such as? > So the old Gnome2 needs to be heavily patched at the source > code level, if it is to interoperate with the rest of the distro. This > is much more complicated than just rebuilding srpms. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpg89h0zhyfs.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30:34PM +0100, Terry Barnaby wrote: > I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. > But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > someone, > who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > different package name) ? +1 That's the open source way. Don't like Gnome 3? Then fork and maintain Gnome 2 and build a new project around it. If there are enough people who support such a move then a community will form around it. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpsxkDyTWEsl.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:13:39PM +0930, Tim wrote: > On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 11:47 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > > Given how small the market is for tablets (compared to the server > > business) I would find such a statement highly questionable. > > If Red Hat is still primarily concerned with the server market, then > Gnome3 makes even less sense. I can't speak to the RHEL side of the house WRT desktop environments. I don't know what the plans are around Gnome 3 and future RHEL releases based on Fedora 15+. Though I would say that I would find it odd for servers to have graphical desktops on which the admins depend. Admins for RHEL systems tend to be the command line type. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgpcx5XucNWFi.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
[snip long rants] The "customers" of Fedora are the users. If you irritate or frustrate your users, especially if the cost is $0 to move to something else, you WILL lose market share and hence mind share. Additional data points that might add to the flames: 1) I have a co-worker new to Linux. He tried F15 and hated it, then went back to F14. I believe WinXP/Vista/7 users trying Linux for the first time ARE confused by F15/Gnome3. 2) Other friends/co-workers have moved to Ubuntu for their desktop and only use RHEL/CentOS for servers (No Fedora). 3) It took me hours to get my F15 laptop sane including finding obscure settings to turn on the minimize in windows, and a working printer configuration application. These are the reasons why only one of my Linux-based laptops/netbooks/desktops is F15 and the rest are F14 or Ubuntu. I hope to try Fedora 16 alpha soon. I hope that most of the major objections to Gnome 3 in F15 have been addressed and that developers have listened to the complaints. I plan to remain a loyal Fedora user as I have used RHL & Fedora since about RHL 2 or 3 circa 1995 (and Slackware before that). Open source is GREAT, but developers must remember that the cost (time and $) to move from one version to another is very low Cheers, -- Wade Hampton -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 01:37 PM, Craig White wrote: > Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, > still under development should probably be using something stable like > RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other > than Fedora. Pardon, I had not intended to furtherly extend this thread, but now you provoking it. "Prepared for new SW" doesn't mean to swallow all mash being presented and to uncritically welcome everything new as "brilliant novelty", but also to make up personal opinions on such SW and to influence the system as part of the evolutionary process which has made Linux up to date. That said, I do not swallow the Gnome folks' claim to have implemented a "revolutionary new approach". IMO, their works, when thinking about them benevolently, at best is an early stage of a case study, which still has to prove its viability. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
28.09.2011, 20:46, "Craig White" : > Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, > still under development should probably be using something stable like > RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other > than Fedora. Just for your information: 1. all unfixed bugs gracefully land in RHEL; 2. complaints indicate attention actually being drawn. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 02:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: >> But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't >> someone, >> who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a >> different package name) ? > > Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of the > fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to "rebuild and > release" it. A usable fork of gnome2 will NEVER happen. People who think it will have no idea of the size of the gnome project and related gtk-based projects. Are they going to set up new source code repos? A new bugzilla? New translation teams? A new release team? A new set of core developers actually adding new code? Will other gtk-based projects (like my serial terminal program, moserial) release gtk2 and gtk3 variants? However, gnome-shell is heavily customizable through extensions. If people want a gnome2-ish experience, they would be better off writing extensions to mimic the gnome2 experience. Some already exist, of course. I personally like gnome-shell. I can only conclude that people who don't are bad people. People who kill kittens. Shame on you! - Mike -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 11:39 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/28/2011 11:12 AM, Craig White wrote: > > Just look at the feedback on the new Macintosh OS X Lion or Windows 8 > > preview... there is a lot of griping about the changes to the UI. It's > > certain that regardless of the OS, changes to the UI will always raise a > > bunch of complaints and the more drastic the changes, the louder the > > complaints. That's not really surprising. > > No, but I think the controversy around GNOME 3 is of a different order > from what we've seen before. This is not just the usual bunch of > complaints. because you say so? seems to me exactly the same type of complaints when KDE 4 was released > When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet > to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem > has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading > developer who represents the views of many developers.) and Linux has a point of view that is entirely his own and certainly valid for him. Why would you assert that his views represent anything other than his views? Heck, he's typically involved in disagreement even with kernel development and the kernel license so what's new here? I believe that the adage states... to make an omelet, one has to break some eggs. Those who are unwilling or unprepared to use leading edge software, still under development should probably be using something stable like RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Ubuntu LTS, Debian or something other than Fedora. If you are committed to using Fedora, you are committed to using it warts and all with the expectation that you are helping to drive the open source universe forward. If you are content with the way things are now... Fedora is likely the wrong choice for you. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:50:36AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
> On 09/28/2011 11:47 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:39:51AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
> >
> >> When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet
> >> to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem
> >> has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading
> >> developer who represents the views of many developers.)
> >
> > Who cares about Linus Torvalds opinion on anything except kernels
> > and the structure of Linux.
>
> I think the answer to that question is in the parentheses above.
My neighbour is a leading Ubuntu 11.04 user who represents the views
of many Ubuntu users {^!^}
Alexander
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Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
It is known that Red Hat makes money from RHEL. RHEL releases are mostly snapshot Fedora. And for the community to be willing to contribute to Fedora, it must receive something back. Specifically, a free desktop operating system that they like (or, which is better, adore). When people are not happy, they stop contributing. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 11:47 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote: > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:39:51AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > >> When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet >> to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem >> has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading >> developer who represents the views of many developers.) > > Who cares about Linus Torvalds opinion on anything except kernels > and the structure of Linux. I think the answer to that question is in the parentheses above. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:39:51AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet > to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem > has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading > developer who represents the views of many developers.) Who cares about Linus Torvalds opinion on anything except kernels and the structure of Linux. Alexander -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:39:51AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > No, but I think the controversy around GNOME 3 is of a different order > from what we've seen before. This is not just the usual bunch of > complaints. I've seen the same during KDE 4.0 and GNOME 2.0. -- Regards, Olav -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 03:12:15AM -0700, Craig White wrote: > No problem with your English whatsoever. > > The only problem that I have is with the logic that the fate of GNOME > represents the fate of Open Source or Linux - it doesn't. > > Just look at the feedback on the new Macintosh OS X Lion or Windows 8 > preview... there is a lot of griping about the changes to the UI. It's > certain that regardless of the OS, changes to the UI will always raise a > bunch of complaints and the more drastic the changes, the louder the > complaints. That's not really surprising. > > People who appreciate open source should love the bold, fresh ideas that > GNOME 3 represents, even if they don't actually intend to use it. It > aspires to encompass the computer regardless of form factor. It dares to > innovate. It spreads the umbrella of implementation that protects it > from those who believe they can patent virtually everything by providing > evidence of prior art. It demonstrates that the innovation doesn't only > emanate from Cupertino (though some of us knew that) or Redmond > (puhlease). > > But to get to your point that 'GNOME has abandoned GNOME 2 and put > distributions in an awkward position' - perhaps you are confused. Let's > just stay on topic, Fedora. Fedora is very clear on this... Fedora's > core value is to implement new versions as early as reasonable to help > drive the development and provide valuable feedback. GNOME 2 is done and > if a sufficient number of people want to maintain it for security > issues, it can continue on as it always has. But Fedora is giving us a > glimpse of the future by implementing the leading edge now... that is > and has always been the core value of Fedora. There's no awkwardness or > confusion there. Hear hear ! Alexander -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 11:12 AM, Craig White wrote: > Just look at the feedback on the new Macintosh OS X Lion or Windows 8 > preview... there is a lot of griping about the changes to the UI. It's > certain that regardless of the OS, changes to the UI will always raise a > bunch of complaints and the more drastic the changes, the louder the > complaints. That's not really surprising. No, but I think the controversy around GNOME 3 is of a different order from what we've seen before. This is not just the usual bunch of complaints. When Linus Torvalds says "I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3" the problem has to be taken seriously. (It's not just Linus, but he's a leading developer who represents the views of many developers.) Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 04:58 +0200, Kernel Guardian wrote: > After nearly 25 years of life with Unices, almost 20 years with Linux, > nowadays I'm pretty confused about future of Linux. > Allow me to elaborate a bit. > I'm convinced that the Kernel will survive and be better in the long > term future. RedHat and IBM as biggest contributors within it and > Linus as maintainer (leader, mogul ... ) give me faith in the future > of Linux. GNU fits well on the top of kernel. That is a rock solid > base for every Linux distribution. > Last 7 years all of my desktops, laptops, servers are locked down on > RHEL and derivatives and Fedora. I saw many changes, bad and good > ones. But last one, with fairly unfinished, not even close to, so > called Beta release, Gnome 3 DE is the worst what is happened. > On the other hand, I like the new look, many promising features, ...etc. > So, what is bad? > The bad thing is attitude of Gnome (developers, promoters, project > leaders) toward end users. They decide to abandon Gnome 2 and put > distribution maintainers in awkward position. Maintainers must use > (buggy, unfinished, untested) Gnome 3 if they want to use Gnome DE in > their distribution. Breaking compatibility at API level with previous > version put application developers in unenviable position. This is > almost unacceptable! ( because of that I understand Ubuntu leaders ) > >From that point of view I wonder on whose payroll are these gentlemen? > This is not good way to promote OpenSource way of life, I'm presume. > I will agree with opinions that DE need some changes, fresh ideas. > Frankly, I don't see anything new that does not exists in other OS/DE > combination. It is good to have DE for mobile devices, tablets > etc. But that could be a related project with main Gnome, isn't it? I > use laptop only when I'm out of office. Desktop with 2 monitors is my > main workplace. ( someone would say "he is old-fashioned guy" ). No > one can convince me that all Gnome developers use only laptops. I > would like to see their workplaces. > I was shocked when I read the response of one of the Gnome developers > in a discussion about maximise/minimise buttons. I paraphrase the > answer: "we where not able to model use cases for them, because each > user uses them in different ways" ? (I'd rather not comment this) GNOME developers have pretty much always developed in their own vacuum so this is hardly new. Whether people agreed or disagreed with their choices was never really important to them. That said, it's important to note that on the subject of UI, it's clear that there really isn't just one way and it makes sense to me that the project works within their own vision and delivers without getting bogged down by the expectations of many people who will disagree among themselves about how things should be done. There is no one way, There are many choices for a DE and GNOME is but only one of them. The future of Linux doesn't hinge on GNOME and at best, GNOME's new direction can only help push the boundaries of where/how Linux is used. > At the end, using of Free Software is liberty/freedom of choice. There > are many opportunities: KDE, XFCE, LXDE They have been created as > response from people who thought differently. This is a waste of > energy, time, resources, even money. As an old elephant, I could > recall the story about end of XFree86 project. I don't think the XFree86 is actually relevant here but the project is still going. KDE, XFCE and others have been around for quite some time and while you might call it a waste of energy, time and resources, it's a clear indication that UI is not monolithic and competing methods/concepts are valid and quite useful and represent real choice to Linux users. They type of choice that you don't get and will never get from one of the proprietary OS vendors. The one thing that could kill off Linux (or at least the Desktop version) would be to have a single UI that in an attempt to be all things to all people actually pleases no one at all. > This is not the way how we can attract more young people who will > use/make/change OpenSource software. Monumental leap of a conclusion with no evidence to support it. > Regardless of all these current events about Gnome, I will continue to > teach my students about importance of OpenSource, FSF, and freedom of > choice. I think you are missing an important point about Open Source... The freedom to innovate involves the freedom to develop as you see fit. The reason much of the open source software exists is because someone has an itch and he writes the software to scratch it. When he gets other people to join in, they decide on their common goals for the project and develop towards those goals. If others decide to take it in a new direction, they 'fork' the software. There's no great mystery and the GNOME project is working entirely as open source software models should operate. > P
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/28/2011 03:58 AM, Kernel Guardian wrote: > At the end, using of Free Software is liberty/freedom of choice. There > are many opportunities: KDE, XFCE, LXDE They have been created as > response from people who thought differently. This is a waste of > energy, time, resources, even money. No it's not. Different projects have different design goals. It's an essential part of the free software ecology. I want a choice; this is one of the benefits of free software. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 28/09/11 13:23, Phil Savoie wrote: > On 09/27/2011 08:58 PM, Kernel Guardian wrote: >> After nearly 25 years of life with Unices, almost 20 years with Linux, >> nowadays I'm pretty confused about future of Linux. >> Allow me to elaborate a bit. >> I'm convinced that the Kernel will survive and be better in the long >> term future. RedHat and IBM as biggest contributors within it and >> Linus as maintainer (leader, mogul ... ) give me faith in the future >> of Linux. GNU fits well on the top of kernel. That is a rock solid >> base for every Linux distribution. >> Last 7 years all of my desktops, laptops, servers are locked down on >> RHEL and derivatives and Fedora. I saw many changes, bad and good >> ones. But last one, with fairly unfinished, not even close to, so >> called Beta release, Gnome 3 DE is the worst what is happened. >> On the other hand, I like the new look, many promising features, ...etc. >> So, what is bad? >> The bad thing is attitude of Gnome (developers, promoters, project >> leaders) toward end users. They decide to abandon Gnome 2 and put >> distribution maintainers in awkward position. Maintainers must use >> (buggy, unfinished, untested) Gnome 3 if they want to use Gnome DE in >> their distribution. Breaking compatibility at API level with previous >> version put application developers in unenviable position. This is >> almost unacceptable! ( because of that I understand Ubuntu leaders ) >> > From that point of view I wonder on whose payroll are these gentlemen? >> This is not good way to promote OpenSource way of life, I'm presume. >> I will agree with opinions that DE need some changes, fresh ideas. >> Frankly, I don't see anything new that does not exists in other OS/DE >> combination. It is good to have DE for mobile devices, tablets >> etc. But that could be a related project with main Gnome, isn't it? I >> use laptop only when I'm out of office. Desktop with 2 monitors is my >> main workplace. ( someone would say "he is old-fashioned guy" ). No >> one can convince me that all Gnome developers use only laptops. I >> would like to see their workplaces. >> I was shocked when I read the response of one of the Gnome developers >> in a discussion about maximise/minimise buttons. I paraphrase the >> answer: "we where not able to model use cases for them, because each >> user uses them in different ways" ? (I'd rather not comment this) >> >> At the end, using of Free Software is liberty/freedom of choice. There >> are many opportunities: KDE, XFCE, LXDE They have been created as >> response from people who thought differently. This is a waste of >> energy, time, resources, even money. As an old elephant, I could >> recall the story about end of XFree86 project. >> >> This is not the way how we can attract more young people who will >> use/make/change OpenSource software. >> Regardless of all these current events about Gnome, I will continue to >> teach my students about importance of OpenSource, FSF, and freedom of >> choice. >> >> P.S. I like to excuse myself about my English in front of linguistic purists >> :) > Very, very well said. Kudos to you!! > > Phil Well said, thank you Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Terry Barnaby wrote: > But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't > someone, > who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a > different package name) ? Apparently it is already being done (sorry, forgot the new name of the fork). However, AFAIK, it is far from straightforward to "rebuild and release" it. Gnome 2 and 3 use different versions of the same set of libraries, and cannot coexist on the same system easily. And Fedora has a lot of Gnome3 dependencies, even if you do not install Gnome3 itself. So the old Gnome2 needs to be heavily patched at the source code level, if it is to interoperate with the rest of the distro. This is much more complicated than just rebuilding srpms. HTH, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 08:58 PM, Kernel Guardian wrote: > After nearly 25 years of life with Unices, almost 20 years with Linux, > nowadays I'm pretty confused about future of Linux. > Allow me to elaborate a bit. > I'm convinced that the Kernel will survive and be better in the long > term future. RedHat and IBM as biggest contributors within it and > Linus as maintainer (leader, mogul ... ) give me faith in the future > of Linux. GNU fits well on the top of kernel. That is a rock solid > base for every Linux distribution. > Last 7 years all of my desktops, laptops, servers are locked down on > RHEL and derivatives and Fedora. I saw many changes, bad and good > ones. But last one, with fairly unfinished, not even close to, so > called Beta release, Gnome 3 DE is the worst what is happened. > On the other hand, I like the new look, many promising features, ...etc. > So, what is bad? > The bad thing is attitude of Gnome (developers, promoters, project > leaders) toward end users. They decide to abandon Gnome 2 and put > distribution maintainers in awkward position. Maintainers must use > (buggy, unfinished, untested) Gnome 3 if they want to use Gnome DE in > their distribution. Breaking compatibility at API level with previous > version put application developers in unenviable position. This is > almost unacceptable! ( because of that I understand Ubuntu leaders ) >>From that point of view I wonder on whose payroll are these gentlemen? > This is not good way to promote OpenSource way of life, I'm presume. > I will agree with opinions that DE need some changes, fresh ideas. > Frankly, I don't see anything new that does not exists in other OS/DE > combination. It is good to have DE for mobile devices, tablets > etc. But that could be a related project with main Gnome, isn't it? I > use laptop only when I'm out of office. Desktop with 2 monitors is my > main workplace. ( someone would say "he is old-fashioned guy" ). No > one can convince me that all Gnome developers use only laptops. I > would like to see their workplaces. > I was shocked when I read the response of one of the Gnome developers > in a discussion about maximise/minimise buttons. I paraphrase the > answer: "we where not able to model use cases for them, because each > user uses them in different ways" ? (I'd rather not comment this) > > At the end, using of Free Software is liberty/freedom of choice. There > are many opportunities: KDE, XFCE, LXDE They have been created as > response from people who thought differently. This is a waste of > energy, time, resources, even money. As an old elephant, I could > recall the story about end of XFree86 project. > > This is not the way how we can attract more young people who will > use/make/change OpenSource software. > Regardless of all these current events about Gnome, I will continue to > teach my students about importance of OpenSource, FSF, and freedom of > choice. > > P.S. I like to excuse myself about my English in front of linguistic purists > :) Very, very well said. Kudos to you!! Phil -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
After nearly 25 years of life with Unices, almost 20 years with Linux, nowadays I'm pretty confused about future of Linux. Allow me to elaborate a bit. I'm convinced that the Kernel will survive and be better in the long term future. RedHat and IBM as biggest contributors within it and Linus as maintainer (leader, mogul ... ) give me faith in the future of Linux. GNU fits well on the top of kernel. That is a rock solid base for every Linux distribution. Last 7 years all of my desktops, laptops, servers are locked down on RHEL and derivatives and Fedora. I saw many changes, bad and good ones. But last one, with fairly unfinished, not even close to, so called Beta release, Gnome 3 DE is the worst what is happened. On the other hand, I like the new look, many promising features, ...etc. So, what is bad? The bad thing is attitude of Gnome (developers, promoters, project leaders) toward end users. They decide to abandon Gnome 2 and put distribution maintainers in awkward position. Maintainers must use (buggy, unfinished, untested) Gnome 3 if they want to use Gnome DE in their distribution. Breaking compatibility at API level with previous version put application developers in unenviable position. This is almost unacceptable! ( because of that I understand Ubuntu leaders ) >From that point of view I wonder on whose payroll are these gentlemen? This is not good way to promote OpenSource way of life, I'm presume. I will agree with opinions that DE need some changes, fresh ideas. Frankly, I don't see anything new that does not exists in other OS/DE combination. It is good to have DE for mobile devices, tablets etc. But that could be a related project with main Gnome, isn't it? I use laptop only when I'm out of office. Desktop with 2 monitors is my main workplace. ( someone would say "he is old-fashioned guy" ). No one can convince me that all Gnome developers use only laptops. I would like to see their workplaces. I was shocked when I read the response of one of the Gnome developers in a discussion about maximise/minimise buttons. I paraphrase the answer: "we where not able to model use cases for them, because each user uses them in different ways" ? (I'd rather not comment this) At the end, using of Free Software is liberty/freedom of choice. There are many opportunities: KDE, XFCE, LXDE They have been created as response from people who thought differently. This is a waste of energy, time, resources, even money. As an old elephant, I could recall the story about end of XFree86 project. This is not the way how we can attract more young people who will use/make/change OpenSource software. Regardless of all these current events about Gnome, I will continue to teach my students about importance of OpenSource, FSF, and freedom of choice. P.S. I like to excuse myself about my English in front of linguistic purists :) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 15:37 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former > users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their > "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? Sounds like they've been facebooking... :-\ (I got tired of my old friends, so I got new ones.) -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 11:47 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote: > Given how small the market is for tablets (compared to the server > business) I would find such a statement highly questionable. If Red Hat is still primarily concerned with the server market, then Gnome3 makes even less sense. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 02:00 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > On 27 September 2011 10:59, Andrew Haley wrote: >> On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: > >>> Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to >>> use, preferring a simpler desktop. >> >> Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the >> actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. > > Yes, the KDE spin has been around for a long time and I see there are > now XFCE and LXDE spins. > >> >> GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a >> uniformly great reception either. GNOME 3 is still in its first >> release, and it'll be interesting to see how it develops. >> > > 3.2 is out "September/October 2011" > (http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.0/#rnlookingforward) > while the "new features and enhancements" listed don't resemble the > problems people have had we might hope some of the issues will have > been addressed. > I don't use Gnome myself, mainly KDE. But its seems like a lot of people would like Gnome2 back. Why doesn't someone, who has a problem with it just rebuild and release Gnome2 for F15 (with a different package name) ? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
> On 09/27/2011 08:00 AM, Ian Malone wrote: >> On 27 September 2011 14:37, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? >> Can't really say this until we've been through a few iterations of >> Gnome 3 in the wild. >> Ok - then in the meantime can we make a Gnome-3 the fedora-tablet spin (or whatever you want to call it) and change the default DE to KDE or XFCE? How do we go about exploring making that happen for F17 (seems too late for F16 - or is it?) Is this a FESCO thing? A vote thing .. what? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 08:00 AM, Ian Malone wrote: > On 27 September 2011 14:37, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >> > Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former >> > users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their >> > "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? >> > > Can't really say this until we've been through a few iterations of > Gnome 3 in the wild. > True. It is, however, the impression many of us have gotten from their past performance. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 06:37 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Like others said before, in comparison to Gnome2, xfce looks like lego > and is a step backward, but it at least is not as unusable as Gnome3. > > To me, using xfce so far is the bitter pill to swallow and the only > viable alternative to avoid having to switch the distro. And for me, it took only a short time to get XFCE looking almost exactly like Gnome 2 and working even better. I love it and even if the Gnome devs introduced an option to make Gnome 3 look and work the way I want I'd never go back because XFCE is so much more responsive and isn't as resource intensive. YMMV, of course, but I, at least, am glad I made the change. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 05:43 PM, Nalin Dahyabhai wrote: > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 05:34:25PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> Yes, RHAT is Red Hat's stock exchange short cut. > > Not for a few years now. It's been RHT since late in 2006. OK, I stay corrected. What you say matches what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RHAT tells ;) Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 05:34:25PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/27/2011 05:00 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > > On 27 September 2011 14:37, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > >> Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former > >> users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their > >> "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? > >> > > > > Can't really say this until we've been through a few iterations of > > Gnome 3 in the wild. > > Well, ... you might be more patient than I am :) > > >> Or, provided many Gnome devs are on RHAT's payrole, because RHAT has a > >> secret "grant masterplan" to turn Fedora and later on RHEL into a > >> tablet/phone OS? > >> > > > > If "RHAT" is "RedHat" then you mean the company whose main business is > > Linux as a server OS? > Yes, RHAT is Red Hat's stock exchange short cut. Actually, it's RHT. > > That'd make lots of sense I'm sure. > > What I said, of course, was wild speculation - It's the only explanation > I can find for this "GUI-mockup case study" and "market acceptance" > study, I feel RHAT is using Gnome3 on Fedora for. Well, as an employee at Red Hat, I can say that if that's the case, this is first I've ever heard. Given how small the market is for tablets (compared to the server business) I would find such a statement highly questionable. And since there's no path from tablet to server it would make very little sense to do this. All in all, I would say you should question your own "wild speculation" before asserting them. -- Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc. Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ pgp4SRXoaPeXV.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 05:34:25PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Yes, RHAT is Red Hat's stock exchange short cut. Not for a few years now. It's been RHT since late in 2006. Cheers, Nalin -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 05:00 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > On 27 September 2011 14:37, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >> Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former >> users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their >> "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? >> > > Can't really say this until we've been through a few iterations of > Gnome 3 in the wild. Well, ... you might be more patient than I am :) >> Or, provided many Gnome devs are on RHAT's payrole, because RHAT has a >> secret "grant masterplan" to turn Fedora and later on RHEL into a >> tablet/phone OS? >> > > If "RHAT" is "RedHat" then you mean the company whose main business is > Linux as a server OS? Yes, RHAT is Red Hat's stock exchange short cut. > That'd make lots of sense I'm sure. What I said, of course, was wild speculation - It's the only explanation I can find for this "GUI-mockup case study" and "market acceptance" study, I feel RHAT is using Gnome3 on Fedora for. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 27 September 2011 14:37, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former > users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their > "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? > Can't really say this until we've been through a few iterations of Gnome 3 in the wild. > Or, provided many Gnome devs are on RHAT's payrole, because RHAT has a > secret "grant masterplan" to turn Fedora and later on RHEL into a > tablet/phone OS? > If "RHAT" is "RedHat" then you mean the company whose main business is Linux as a server OS? That'd make lots of sense I'm sure. -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 06:19 -0700, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote: > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > > This distro has more than one DE. > > Perhaps it would be productive if you posted explicit, detailed > instructions for changing the desktop environment in Fedora, or if > there are already instructions online, researched which page is best > then posted the link here. EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS Let us say you want to install XFCE If you run: yum grouplist you will see there is a group called: XFCE Software Development So you can run: yum groupinstall XFCE after the installation at the point that you are logging in after you enter your username, you will see a window of choices below the passwd enter field. By default in might say: Gnome Changing the field to choose XFCE and you will be logged in to XFCE. >From then on until you change it you will be logged on to XFCE every time you login. You may find other DE options are already on the list. They can be chosen at the time you install F15. > > I use Fedora on my workstation and Ubuntu 11.04 on my laptop. I > really, really hated Ubuntu Unity when I first installed 11.04, but I > am getting used to it. The main problem I had was that I could not > find anything in the menus, but it's all in there somewhere. It's a > matter of getting used to it. > > I don't have an opinion on the current Fedora, as my workstation is > packed in a storage shed until I can get a U-Haul truck to move it to > my new home. > > > > -- > Don Quixote de la Mancha > quix...@dulcineatech.com > >Custom Software Development for the iPhone and Mac OS X >http://www.dulcineatech.com/custom-software-development/ -- === Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need more. -- Addison H. Hallock === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 03:09 PM, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/27/2011 12:01 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> On 09/27/2011 11:59 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: >>> On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: >> Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them >> free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers >> have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. >> >> However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of >> identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users >> of RedHat Enterprise . >> >> This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora >> software listening to its users but what is clear is the current >> situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora >> user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no >> evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of >> the strange direction that RedHat is taking. > This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? > Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to use, preferring a simpler desktop. >>> >>> Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the >>> actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. >> >> As long as Fedora ship a "first release", as you prefer to call it, as >> "default DE", people will identify and set equal "Fedora" with "Gnome3". > > They're wrong. A DE is just a thin skin over an OS, as we all know. > I'm a developer of Fedora software, and the DE has nothing to do with > me. No disagreement - My position is similar. I think Fedora basically is an excellent distro, unfortunately its default DE is unusable to me. > No matter how much I listen to people's complaints about GNOME, > nothing is going to happen. Please elaborate. Because the Gnome devs are preferring not to listen to their former users' complaints and prefer to furtherly isolate themselves in their "devine ivory cathedral's tower"? Or, provided many Gnome devs are on RHAT's payrole, because RHAT has a secret "grant masterplan" to turn Fedora and later on RHEL into a tablet/phone OS? My view: The Gnome devs chose to kill their former user-base, i.e. also Fedora's user-base. Therefore it would be consequent for Fedora's management to reconsider if Gnome can any longer be Fedora's default DE. > All I can do is point out to people that > XFCE might be more to their taste. Like others said before, in comparison to Gnome2, xfce looks like lego and is a step backward, but it at least is not as unusable as Gnome3. To me, using xfce so far is the bitter pill to swallow and the only viable alternative to avoid having to switch the distro. >> I find this very relatable and therefore find "throwing Fedora and >> Gnome3 into one big bowl" to be not without justification. > > It is entirely without justification. I disagree - Fedora and Gnome are closely connected. >>This new new-user-base likely is (mostly) satisfied, but many of these >> distros' "old long term supporters and users" simply feel their so far >> choosen distro's DE doesn't suite their needs anymore. > > This distro has more than one DE. Right, but which? People had reasons to use Gnome2, now they are being forced to switch to GUI/DEs they never wanted. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > This distro has more than one DE. Perhaps it would be productive if you posted explicit, detailed instructions for changing the desktop environment in Fedora, or if there are already instructions online, researched which page is best then posted the link here. I use Fedora on my workstation and Ubuntu 11.04 on my laptop. I really, really hated Ubuntu Unity when I first installed 11.04, but I am getting used to it. The main problem I had was that I could not find anything in the menus, but it's all in there somewhere. It's a matter of getting used to it. I don't have an opinion on the current Fedora, as my workstation is packed in a storage shed until I can get a U-Haul truck to move it to my new home. -- Don Quixote de la Mancha quix...@dulcineatech.com Custom Software Development for the iPhone and Mac OS X http://www.dulcineatech.com/custom-software-development/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 12:01 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 09/27/2011 11:59 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: >> On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: >>> On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them > free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers > have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. > > However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of > identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users > of RedHat Enterprise . > > This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora > software listening to its users but what is clear is the current > situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora > user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no > evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of > the strange direction that RedHat is taking. This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? >>> Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to >>> use, preferring a simpler desktop. >> >> Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the >> actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. > > As long as Fedora ship a "first release", as you prefer to call it, as > "default DE", people will identify and set equal "Fedora" with "Gnome3". They're wrong. A DE is just a thin skin over an OS, as we all know. I'm a developer of Fedora software, and the DE has nothing to do with me. No matter how much I listen to people's complaints about GNOME, nothing is going to happen. All I can do is point out to people that XFCE might be more to their taste. > I find this very relatable and therefore find "throwing Fedora and > Gnome3 into one big bowl" to be not without justification. It is entirely without justification. > This new new-user-base likely is (mostly) satisfied, but many of these > distros' "old long term supporters and users" simply feel their so far > choosen distro's DE doesn't suite their needs anymore. This distro has more than one DE. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 27 September 2011 10:59, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: >> Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to >> use, preferring a simpler desktop. > > Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the > actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. Yes, the KDE spin has been around for a long time and I see there are now XFCE and LXDE spins. > > GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a > uniformly great reception either. GNOME 3 is still in its first > release, and it'll be interesting to see how it develops. > 3.2 is out "September/October 2011" (http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.0/#rnlookingforward) while the "new features and enhancements" listed don't resemble the problems people have had we might hope some of the issues will have been addressed. -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 13:01 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 09/27/2011 11:59 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
> >
> > GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a
> > uniformly great reception either.
> Agreed. As I see it, both Ubuntu and Fedora's managements seem to be
> addicted to the same "GUI/DE cult".
>
> They both seem to be missing that both "Gnome 3" and "Unity" are
> aiming at a user-base, which is entirely different from the
> corresponding distributions' user-bases.
>
> This new new-user-base likely is (mostly) satisfied, but many of these
> distros' "old long term supporters and users" simply feel their so far
> choosen distro's DE doesn't suite their needs anymore.
Ignoring that this thread originated from a irrelevant sentiment...
Being the default user interface for Fedora, GNOME is in the face of
most users and thus it's hardly surprising that when GNOME made vast
changes to their UI, there was a reaction.
Those who are familiar with the open source development process are no
doubt familiar with the 'Cathedral and the Bazaar' [1] and recognize the
importance to bring in many users into the development process as early
as practically possible.
Those who are familiar with the Fedora Project's stated 'Core
Values' [2] understand that Fedora 'first' is all about the Cathedral
and the Bazaar process.
This discussion of 'user base' {new, old} - while it might somehow
satisfy your need to delineate the reactions really misses the point
that in order to advance the software, it needs more people using it and
reporting back in a useful, responsible way. These 'old' users as you
classify them should understand that if GNOME decides to do a vast
re-write of their project, that Fedora is going to include it.
[1] http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora
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Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/27/2011 11:59 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: >> On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: >>> On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users of RedHat Enterprise . This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora software listening to its users but what is clear is the current situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of the strange direction that RedHat is taking. >>> This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? >>> >> Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to >> use, preferring a simpler desktop. > > Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the > actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. As long as Fedora ship a "first release", as you prefer to call it, as "default DE", people will identify and set equal "Fedora" with "Gnome3". I find this very relatable and therefore find "throwing Fedora and Gnome3 into one big bowl" to be not without justification. >> This resulted in a discussion touching on the developers responsibility >> to users, if any. >> Ubuntu and Fedora 14 offers the choice of new or classic. > > Not to mention KDE and XFCE. > > GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a > uniformly great reception either. Agreed. As I see it, both Ubuntu and Fedora's managements seem to be addicted to the same "GUI/DE cult". They both seem to be missing that both "Gnome 3" and "Unity" are aiming at a user-base, which is entirely different from the corresponding distributions' user-bases. This new new-user-base likely is (mostly) satisfied, but many of these distros' "old long term supporters and users" simply feel their so far choosen distro's DE doesn't suite their needs anymore. Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
snip > > Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the > actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. > snip > > Not to mention KDE and XFCE. > > GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a > uniformly great reception either. GNOME 3 is still in its first > release, and it'll be interesting to see how it develops. > > Andrew. I remember the problems with the migration from KDE 3 -> 4, being a long time KDE user. Anyway, I persevered with KDE 4, and after about 6 to 12 months things improved. That may just be that I became more familiar with KDE 4, as much as any fixes and updates. Whatever, I suspect the same will happen with Gnome 3, frustrating as that may be. Meanwhile I wish those that persevere with Gnome 3 all the best. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/26/2011 11:59 PM, Roger wrote: > On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: >> On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: >>> Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them >>> free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers >>> have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. >>> >>> However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of >>> identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users >>> of RedHat Enterprise . >>> >>> This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora >>> software listening to its users but what is clear is the current >>> situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora >>> user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no >>> evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of >>> the strange direction that RedHat is taking. >> This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? >> > Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to > use, preferring a simpler desktop. Ahh, this is all about GNOME 3. It's very unfair to describe the actions/attitude of GNOME developers at that of all Fedora developers. > This resulted in a discussion touching on the developers responsibility > to users, if any. > Ubuntu and Fedora 14 offers the choice of new or classic. Not to mention KDE and XFCE. GNOME 3 is, to say the least, controversial. Ubuntu Unity hasn't had a uniformly great reception either. GNOME 3 is still in its first release, and it'll be interesting to see how it develops. Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: >> Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them >> free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers >> have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. >> >> However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of >> identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users >> of RedHat Enterprise . >> >> This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora >> software listening to its users but what is clear is the current >> situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora >> user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no >> evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of >> the strange direction that RedHat is taking. > This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? > > Andrew. > Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and possibly difficult to use, preferring a simpler desktop. This resulted in a discussion touching on the developers responsibility to users, if any. Ubuntu and Fedora 14 offers the choice of new or classic. Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 26/09/11 19:38, Andrew Haley wrote: > On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: >> Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them >> free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers >> have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. >> >> However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of >> identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users >> of RedHat Enterprise . >> >> This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora >> software listening to its users but what is clear is the current >> situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora >> user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no >> evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of >> the strange direction that RedHat is taking. > This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? > > Andrew. > Some say that the new Fedora GUI is unhelpful and difficult to use, preferring a simpler desktop. This resulted in a discussion touching on the developers responsibility to users, if any. Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/22/2011 02:15 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them > free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers > have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. > > However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of > identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users > of RedHat Enterprise . > > This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora > software listening to its users but what is clear is the current > situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora > user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no > evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of > the strange direction that RedHat is taking. This is all too vague for me to understand. What are you talking about? Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/25/2011 04:17 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 09/24/2011 11:43 AM, 夜神 岩男 wrote: >> Things are as they should be because things are as they are. > > This is going way, way off topic, but that could be used as a > justification for never changing anything. Or for changing everything. "Everything" encompasses process, including the process of change -- which is the aspect I find most relevant here. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/24/2011 11:43 AM, 夜神 岩男 wrote: > Things are as they should be because things are as they are. This is going way, way off topic, but that could be used as a justification for never changing anything. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/24/2011 07:36 AM, charles zeitler wrote: > Do what thou wilt > shall be the whole of the Law. > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: >> Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them >> free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers >> have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. >> === >> Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: stuff > > yes, such an argument _can_ be made. > > otoh, if the family of Fedora contributors were _only_ > building for themselves, i suspect they would quickly > lose interest. thus, there is an implied incentive to > consider (& encourage!) feedback/feedforward. "encourage" != "enforce" A fiscal relationship changes the picture, hence RedHat, Inc. Things are as they should be because things are as they are. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them > free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers > have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. > === > Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net yes, such an argument _can_ be made. otoh, if the family of Fedora contributors were _only_ building for themselves, i suspect they would quickly lose interest. thus, there is an implied incentive to consider (& encourage!) feedback/feedforward. charles zeitler -- Love is the law, love under will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On 09/22/2011 06:45 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them > free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers > have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. > > However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of > identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users > of RedHat Enterprise . > > This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora > software listening to its users but what is clear is the current > situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora > user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no > evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of > the strange direction that RedHat is taking. You are breaking a thread and starting a new one without a reference to what you are talking about. This makes it difficult to follow the context.I don't think it is possible for any one individual to speak on behalf of the entire Fedora user base. So I wouldn't even bother trying.Having said, I suspect that the large majority of Fedora contributors who are volunteers may not even care about what Red Hat Enterprise Linux needs are. That is upto Red Hat to handle. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 08:15 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote: > Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them > free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers > have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. > > However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of > identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying > users of RedHat Enterprise . There's little point in having a user base of testers (which Fedora users are, by the very nature of what Fedora is - rapidly changing, never stable, trying things out before it ends up in Red Hat Linux, no matter how many people say "it's not a 'testbed' distro"), if you don't pay any attention to what they say about it. That means not only bug reports about errors, but also usability issues (bad interfaces, burdensome design, lack of features, et cetera). -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Developers responsibillity to Fedora Users
Alan Cox is exactly right that the users of Fedora products get them free and one can make a strong case that therefore Fedora developers have no responsibility to listen to user's complaints. However, the Fedora users provide a service to the ReHat company of identifying bugs that otherwise would show up to annoy the paying users of RedHat Enterprise . This is probably a weak argument to support the developers of Fedora software listening to its users but what is clear is the current situation leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the current Fedora user-base. Clearly developers can ignore our complaints, but I have no evidence that the paying Enterprise customers will be more tolerant of the strange direction that RedHat is taking. -- === timesharing, n: An access method whereby one computer abuses many people. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
