Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Fri, 2011-12-09 at 02:36 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 09.12.2011 01:50, schrieb Craig White: > > I manage a lot of networks and always use LDAP for user base and > > typically (but not always) use NFS and for that matter, NFS automounts. > > as said - you are knowing only your small world and will not realize > that there other usecases than yours I am not interested in your abusive comments - I am now asking for the 3rd time - please do not respond to my postings. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
Am 09.12.2011 01:50, schrieb Craig White: > I manage a lot of networks and always use LDAP for user base and > typically (but not always) use NFS and for that matter, NFS automounts. as said - you are knowing only your small world and will not realize that there other usecases than yours signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 15:50 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Or, you can be a bit wiser and not use Fedora in a production environment to > begin with. actually untrue... I have used Fedora at a non-profit that I worked with. Maintained our own repository, installed originally from kickstart and updated/upgraded in place. Wasn't too hard and definitely gave the users the latest/best desktop/ui that Linux had to offer (of course I used KDM/KDE ;-) Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 14:39 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 07.12.2011 07:50, schrieb Craig White: > > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > > at 500 instead of 1000? > > because people usually migrate their whole systems from one hardware > to the next and if you have a lot of users and existing files > with permissions it is unuseable to have "freddy" 3 times with > uid 500 and 1 time with uid 1000 > > migrate whole system = dd the disk to the next hardware > migrate whole system = install F9 and stay currently with F15 > > did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and > users and used rsync / nfs? I manage a lot of networks and always use LDAP for user base and typically (but not always) use NFS and for that matter, NFS automounts. Please don't respond to my postings. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 14:41 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 07.12.2011 09:29, schrieb Craig White: > > On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:27 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: > >> On 12/06/2011 10:50 PM, Craig White wrote: > >>> out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > >>> at 500 instead of 1000? > >>> > >> > >> Because I've had this system running since F8 and have three different > >> users right now. Keeping the numbers the way they are is much simpler > >> than trying to get all three of them changed over. You do understand > >> the KISS principle, don't you? > > > > You really should not be so condescending... it was uncalled for. > > > > Are you suggesting that it's easier to do a kickstart just to create > > users with specific uidNumbers rather than just 'chown joe:joe /home/joe > > -R' ? > > YOU are suggesting that you know only your small world with > one computer and 1-3 users where all data lives in /home/ > because you never saw environments with multiple users and > shared data-structures you can't place in /home and if you > work on more than one computer where one starts with 500 > and the other starts with 1000 your chown does not > help you in any way you are without question the most irritating person I have ever seen on this list and that's quite a statement. I would prefer that you not respond to my postings, ever. I ALWAYS use LDAP and so my users always have the same uidNumber on every system. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
> Umm, AFAIK RHEL explicitly doesn't support upgrades across major releases. > And > they wouldn't dare changing the UID lower limit between point releases, IMHO. Thats really irrelevant. Do you think a large business has a 'flag day' and upgrades RHEL x to RHEL x + 1 globally that day ??? > The thing is --- you need to do that "some nontrivial amount of work" when > upgrading the OS in both cases (Fedora and RHEL). It's just that with RHEL > you > do that kind of work once every 5-7 years, while with Fedora you do it every > 6 > months. I've not usually had to do much. Now and then it gets exciting. For the most part I've just used yum upgrade to move between versions then fixed up any oddments. Preupgrade is getting better but I'd still take a backup first because its failure cases are sometimes horrible, Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/07/2011 02:10 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: > then if "cat /etc/fedora-release" is 16. It is, after a distro-sync, although before the last reboot yum still claimed it was 14. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On 12/07/2011 06:20 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > And what do you think,*why* did Fedora decide to raise the limit on UID's in > this release? Actually, I think it happened in F15 in an attempt to bring Fedora back into line with most other distros. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
Am 08.12.2011 03:20, schrieb Marko Vojinovic: > Sure, if you know what you are doing, you are welcome to do it. But it may > just happen that future Fedora releases prove you wrong later on. Fedora is a > fast-moving target, and you can never be sure in which direction it is going > to go in a year or more. since RHEL is based on fedora you will get this changes there also, only later >> because using stoneold software like RHEL is not a option here > > What, you are missing the latest Gnome3.2 on your production servers? :-) no , PHP 5.3 / MySQL 5.5 / Dovecot 2.0.16 / Postfix 2.8 PHP 5.4 as soon as it is stabilized because if your are hosting hundrets of domains where all your software is inhouse-developed it is easy to upgrade and benefit of new features instead wait 5 years > More seriously, I agree that sometimes there is a legitimate need for the > latest software in production, but those cases are exceptional rather than > typical. typical for what? look at current web-development and tell me again you are right to use 5 years old software in this business-class >>> And yes, that's exactly what I mean --- *work* --- create and execute a >>> script to chown across all disks on all machines, update/modify all >>> /etc/passwd and /etc/group to reflect the UID+500 change on all systems >> >> for exactly what reason? >> because anybody thought it has to be changed? > > And what do you think, *why* did Fedora decide to raise the limit on UID's in > this release? Is it not reasonable to assume that they have a plan to > actually > *use* more than 500 system-reserved UID's in some future release? My guess is > that in a couple more Fedora releases there will be *no* *choice* but to > raise > the UID limit. Consequently, hoping that you can get away with current UID's > in the long term, while upgrading through Fedora releases, is not very wise > IMHO. what is not very wise? not change the uids for nonsense on 20 production servers running since years becasue MAYBE somewhere in time it COULD be necessary? what does this bother me NOW? > It's great if you can do that. But there are also other usecases, where > serious downtime may be necessary. then you did prepare the upgrades wrong >>> rebooting of all servers (maybe simultaneously) >> >> hopefully you are not responsible for production environment > > Hopefully you are aware that Fedora 16 has gone through at least four kernel > versions already, since it first came out (might be even more, I didn't count > too carefully). so what? > And please don't tell me that you don't need to run the latest kernel on > production systems where the latest software is an absolute must-have. I know > that in some cases you can get away with that, but again it's an exceptional > rather than a typical usecase. "hopefully you are not responsible for production environment" was meant to "maybe simultaneously" because NOBODY restarts all his servers at the same time because if something goes wrong you are on the road to hell und if you have a netwrok with nameservers/dhcp and such nice components you must be totally crazy restart the whole infrastructure at the same time signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
Am 08.12.2011 02:40, schrieb Marko Vojinovic: > On Wednesday 07 December 2011 20:19:31 Alan Cox wrote: did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and users and used rsync / nfs? >>> >>> Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you >>> have a server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and >>> you have the >> >> Why not (rsync btw translates names fine) > > Because Fedora has a fast lifecycle, and introduces major system changes in > every version. Ok, sure, you certainly *can* maintain Fedora machines in a > production environment, but it typically involves more work than using a LTS > distro like RHEL. That was the point I was trying to make. yes, that it for what you get paied as administrator >>> whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be >>> prepared to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora >>> machines. >> >> And presumably RHEL in future. > > Umm, AFAIK RHEL explicitly doesn't support upgrades across major releases. Umm Fedora does not recommend upgrade via yum and i did it some hundrets of times since FC5 until now > The thing is --- you need to do that "some nontrivial amount of work" when > upgrading the OS in both cases (Fedora and RHEL). It's just that with RHEL > you > do that kind of work once every 5-7 years, while with Fedora you do it every > 6 > months. well, and if you are a company which develops web-based systems and hosting them on your own infrastructure you bave to wait 5-7 years for major upgrades of php/mysql which is quite impossible in this business and if you start include third-party repos to get newer versions you lose the support - this 7 years support is for people relying on crappy apllications which permanently break if anything on the system is changed but not if your business is IT-centred because 5-7 years in the IT is a very very long time signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Wednesday 07 December 2011 23:48:58 Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 07.12.2011 16:50, schrieb Marko Vojinovic: > > On Wednesday 07 December 2011 14:39:45 Reindl Harald wrote: > >> did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and > >> users and used rsync / nfs? > > > > Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you > > have a server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and > > you have the whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then > > you'd better be prepared to do some nontrivial amount of work when > > upgrading the Fedora machines. > > becuase it works perfectly if you know hat you are doing Sure, if you know what you are doing, you are welcome to do it. But it may just happen that future Fedora releases prove you wrong later on. Fedora is a fast-moving target, and you can never be sure in which direction it is going to go in a year or more. > because using stoneold software like RHEL is not a option here What, you are missing the latest Gnome3.2 on your production servers? :-) More seriously, I agree that sometimes there is a legitimate need for the latest software in production, but those cases are exceptional rather than typical. > > And yes, that's exactly what I mean --- *work* --- create and execute a > > script to chown across all disks on all machines, update/modify all > > /etc/passwd and /etc/group to reflect the UID+500 change on all systems > > for exactly what reason? > because anybody thought it has to be changed? And what do you think, *why* did Fedora decide to raise the limit on UID's in this release? Is it not reasonable to assume that they have a plan to actually *use* more than 500 system-reserved UID's in some future release? My guess is that in a couple more Fedora releases there will be *no* *choice* but to raise the UID limit. Consequently, hoping that you can get away with current UID's in the long term, while upgrading through Fedora releases, is not very wise IMHO. > > It will require some downtime > > what is this? downtime? > > this weekend i did a upgrade from F14 to F15 on all our servers > and the downtime was exactly 30 seconds for the reboot and the > upgrade per machine takes between 5 and 7 minutes (maximum stripped > down installations on each server and good hardware) It's great if you can do that. But there are also other usecases, where serious downtime may be necessary. > > rebooting of all servers (maybe simultaneously) > > hopefully you are not responsible for production environment Hopefully you are aware that Fedora 16 has gone through at least four kernel versions already, since it first came out (might be even more, I didn't count too carefully). And please don't tell me that you don't need to run the latest kernel on production systems where the latest software is an absolute must-have. I know that in some cases you can get away with that, but again it's an exceptional rather than a typical usecase. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Wednesday 07 December 2011 20:19:31 Alan Cox wrote: > > > did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and > > > users and used rsync / nfs? > > > > Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you > > have a server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and > > you have the > > Why not (rsync btw translates names fine) Because Fedora has a fast lifecycle, and introduces major system changes in every version. Ok, sure, you certainly *can* maintain Fedora machines in a production environment, but it typically involves more work than using a LTS distro like RHEL. That was the point I was trying to make. > > whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be > > prepared to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora > > machines. > > And presumably RHEL in future. Umm, AFAIK RHEL explicitly doesn't support upgrades across major releases. And they wouldn't dare changing the UID lower limit between point releases, IMHO. The thing is --- you need to do that "some nontrivial amount of work" when upgrading the OS in both cases (Fedora and RHEL). It's just that with RHEL you do that kind of work once every 5-7 years, while with Fedora you do it every 6 months. > Remind me never to hire you as a consultant 8) :-) Don't worry, I have no plans on going back to anything IT related professionally. Computers are consuming quite enough of my time already as just a hobby... Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 07/12/11 18:35, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/07/2011 12:39 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: >> yum distro-sync >> it may bring in all, >> that has been borked as a result of the stall. > > It wants to downgrade me to F14, even though it "knows" the version is > F16. If I use --releasever=16, it fails because of broken dependencies. >My next step, of course, is to add --skip-broken and see what happens. then if "cat /etc/fedora-release" is 16. then yum update --skip-broken may indeed help I would encourage it as permanent in /etc/yum.conf with "skip_broken=1" then it may indeed pull in the mssing updates. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/07/2011 12:29 AM, Craig White wrote: > You really should not be so condescending... it was uncalled for. > Don't take offense where none was offered. I simply stated the fact that I've got several years worth of files and history to protect. > Are you suggesting that it's easier to do a kickstart just to create > users with specific uidNumbers rather than just 'chown joe:joe /home/joe > -R' ? No. First of all, I have the anaconda.ks to build on and second, I'll have to learn how to add the details about the users (plural) to it. Part of my wanting to do that is to make sure I end up with all the programs I had before, except that I'm going to delete the part about installing Gnome, and let it just bring in the dependencies for XFCE. And, of course, it's a learning experience. I may be 62, but there's no reason not to keep learning. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
Am 07.12.2011 16:50, schrieb Marko Vojinovic: > On Wednesday 07 December 2011 14:39:45 Reindl Harald wrote: >> Am 07.12.2011 07:50, schrieb Craig White: >>> out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting >>> at 500 instead of 1000? >> >> because people usually migrate their whole systems from one hardware >> to the next and if you have a lot of users and existing files >> with permissions it is unuseable to have "freddy" 3 times with >> uid 500 and 1 time with uid 1000 >> >> migrate whole system = dd the disk to the next hardware >> migrate whole system = install F9 and stay currently with F15 >> >> did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and >> users and used rsync / nfs? > > Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you have > a > server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and you have the > whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be > prepared > to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora machines. becuase it works perfectly if you know hat you are doing because using stoneold software like RHEL is not a option here > And yes, that's exactly what I mean --- *work* --- create and execute a > script > to chown across all disks on all machines, update/modify all /etc/passwd and > /etc/group to reflect the UID+500 change on all systems for exactly what reason? because anybody thought it has to be changed? > It will require some downtime what is this? downtime? this weekend i did a upgrade from F14 to F15 on all our servers and the downtime was exactly 30 seconds for the reboot and the upgrade per machine takes between 5 and 7 minutes (maximum stripped down installations on each server and good hardware) before you try to tell me that this is impossible try to understand that there are people which really know what they are doing which are preparing their upgrades, have local cache-repos, local repos filled with a local build-ebironment and overriding each fedora-package if there is one single reason (as example remove this uneccaptable restarts of services while yum-update) > rebooting of all servers (maybe simultaneously) hopefully you are not responsible for production environment > a couple of days to setup-test-execute, and a couple of weeks > to be around cleaning up anything that your scripts failed to handle > properly. > That's the job description of a "computer administrator" my job as administrator is to make updares as less invasive as possible and since the will be not often new setups in my lifetime because in a full virztualized environment you have a goldenmaster and my physical setups are going with dd/ssh from one hardware to the next the question is easy what is less invasive than what you would doing signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On 12/07/2011 07:50 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: > Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you have a > server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and you have the > whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be prepared > to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora machines. And, of course, as I've already explained, the change in UserID is only one of several reasons for me to try kickstart, making this whole argument theoretical only. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
> > did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and > > users and used rsync / nfs? > > Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you have > a > server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and you have the Why not (rsync btw translates names fine) > whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be > prepared > to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora machines. And presumably RHEL in future. > your backup infrastructure, and make sure that you have a contigency plan to > remap users back and forth in case you need to recover anything from an older > backup... Etc... Remind me never to hire you as a consultant 8) I would suggest the simpler approach is to "man nfsidmap" -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
On Wednesday 07 December 2011 14:39:45 Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 07.12.2011 07:50, schrieb Craig White: > > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > > at 500 instead of 1000? > > because people usually migrate their whole systems from one hardware > to the next and if you have a lot of users and existing files > with permissions it is unuseable to have "freddy" 3 times with > uid 500 and 1 time with uid 1000 > > migrate whole system = dd the disk to the next hardware > migrate whole system = install F9 and stay currently with F15 > > did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and > users and used rsync / nfs? Why would you even consider using Fedora in such an environment? If you have a server farm with shared users and use rsync/nfs/whatever, and you have the whole thing (or a part of it) running on Fedora, then you'd better be prepared to do some nontrivial amount of work when upgrading the Fedora machines. And yes, that's exactly what I mean --- *work* --- create and execute a script to chown across all disks on all machines, update/modify all /etc/passwd and /etc/group to reflect the UID+500 change on all systems, and if you happen to have more than 500 users to begin with, make sure that you chown the files starting from the highest UID's first, since otherwise you might mix up the files from user 500 with user 1000. Then you do a complete reimplementation of your backup infrastructure, and make sure that you have a contigency plan to remap users back and forth in case you need to recover anything from an older backup... Etc... It will require some downtime, rebooting of all servers (maybe simultaneously), a couple of days to setup-test-execute, and a couple of weeks to be around cleaning up anything that your scripts failed to handle properly. That's the job description of a "computer administrator". Or, you can be a bit wiser and not use Fedora in a production environment to begin with. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/07/2011 12:39 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: > yum distro-sync > it may bring in all, > that has been borked as a result of the stall. It wants to downgrade me to F14, even though it "knows" the version is F16. If I use --releasever=16, it fails because of broken dependencies. My next step, of course, is to add --skip-broken and see what happens. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/07/2011 12:42 AM, Frank Murphy wrote: > That's the beauty, and no anaconda per say. > You do get to customize the partitions. > Which has alway allowed me to keep /home. *Shrug!* I like having it customized from the start, but YMMV. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
Am 07.12.2011 09:29, schrieb Craig White: > On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:27 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: >> On 12/06/2011 10:50 PM, Craig White wrote: >>> out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting >>> at 500 instead of 1000? >>> >> >> Because I've had this system running since F8 and have three different >> users right now. Keeping the numbers the way they are is much simpler >> than trying to get all three of them changed over. You do understand >> the KISS principle, don't you? > > You really should not be so condescending... it was uncalled for. > > Are you suggesting that it's easier to do a kickstart just to create > users with specific uidNumbers rather than just 'chown joe:joe /home/joe > -R' ? YOU are suggesting that you know only your small world with one computer and 1-3 users where all data lives in /home/ because you never saw environments with multiple users and shared data-structures you can't place in /home and if you work on more than one computer where one starts with 500 and the other starts with 1000 your chown does not help you in any way signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure -> people maintain > 1 computer
Am 07.12.2011 07:50, schrieb Craig White: > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > at 500 instead of 1000? because people usually migrate their whole systems from one hardware to the next and if you have a lot of users and existing files with permissions it is unuseable to have "freddy" 3 times with uid 500 and 1 time with uid 1000 migrate whole system = dd the disk to the next hardware migrate whole system = install F9 and stay currently with F15 did you ever work in an environment with a lot of servers and users and used rsync / nfs? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
Craig White writes: On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:27 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/06/2011 10:50 PM, Craig White wrote: > > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > > at 500 instead of 1000? > > > > Because I've had this system running since F8 and have three different > users right now. Keeping the numbers the way they are is much simpler > than trying to get all three of them changed over. You do understand > the KISS principle, don't you? You really should not be so condescending... it was uncalled for. Are you suggesting that it's easier to do a kickstart just to create users with specific uidNumbers rather than just 'chown joe:joe /home/joe -R' ? Don't forget -h. pgp2vd63qsge0.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:50:57 -0800 Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/06/2011 06:24 PM, Mark C. Allman wrote: > > What argument are you passing to grub2-install? /dev/root? > > Does /dev/root exist? From what I've read and had to do the argument to > > grub2-install is something like /dev/sda. > > I used this: > > grub2-install /dev/sda > > After it failed, I tried this: > > grub2-install --force /dev/sda > > Both gave the same error, but when I boot, the Grub menu claims to be > from 1.99 so maybe it worked. Weirder and weirder - I'm out of suggestions at this point. It sounds like your rpm database thinks FC16 packages are installed but FC14 ones actually are. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 06/12/11 18:47, Joe Zeff wrote: > Last night, I used preupgrade to prepare my desktop for upgrade from F14 > to F16 and started the process at bed time. This morning, it was hung > while upgrading SELinux targeted policy. Use the DVD > troubleshoot, and rescue the stalled F16. one you chroot /mnt/sysimage use: yum distro-sync it may bring in all, that has been borked as a result of the stall. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 07/12/11 08:10, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/06/2011 11:59 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: >> I've noticed with the dvd that you can go back and forth, >> trying to work out needed deps. > > In my experience, with the DVD (or the set of CDs) you pick what you > want and it resolves the dependencies for you without even needing to be > on-line. Not with F16, it will ask you to go back and pick, on a fresh install at least. The nice thing about the LiveCD is that you don't have to > spend any time customizing before install; the bad thing is that you > can't customize before install even if you want to. That's the beauty, and no anaconda per say. You do get to customize the partitions. Which has alway allowed me to keep /home. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 11:59 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: > I've noticed with the dvd that you can go back and forth, > trying to work out needed deps. In my experience, with the DVD (or the set of CDs) you pick what you want and it resolves the dependencies for you without even needing to be on-line. The nice thing about the LiveCD is that you don't have to spend any time customizing before install; the bad thing is that you can't customize before install even if you want to. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:27 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/06/2011 10:50 PM, Craig White wrote: > > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > > at 500 instead of 1000? > > > > Because I've had this system running since F8 and have three different > users right now. Keeping the numbers the way they are is much simpler > than trying to get all three of them changed over. You do understand > the KISS principle, don't you? You really should not be so condescending... it was uncalled for. Are you suggesting that it's easier to do a kickstart just to create users with specific uidNumbers rather than just 'chown joe:joe /home/joe -R' ? 3 users? If so, then we have decidedly different notions of keeping things simple. > > I don't think that the Live CD isn't going to be friendly to keeping > > your /home partition. > > Of course it isn't, which is why I'd never, under any circumstances > consider installing from a LiveCD. Back when I didn't have a DVD drive, > I'd get all six CDs and burn them just so that I could properly > customize my installs or have everything available for an upgrade. I use USB flash disks for this. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 10:50 PM, Craig White wrote: > out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting > at 500 instead of 1000? > Because I've had this system running since F8 and have three different users right now. Keeping the numbers the way they are is much simpler than trying to get all three of them changed over. You do understand the KISS principle, don't you? > I don't think that the Live CD isn't going to be friendly to keeping > your /home partition. Of course it isn't, which is why I'd never, under any circumstances consider installing from a LiveCD. Back when I didn't have a DVD drive, I'd get all six CDs and burn them just so that I could properly customize my installs or have everything available for an upgrade. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 07/12/11 00:18, Joe Zeff wrote: > You misunderstand. I'm not asking why I should reinstall, but why use > the LiveCD instead of the DVD. I've noticed with the dvd that you can go back and forth, trying to work out needed deps. With the livecd, at least you have a working box. Though not supported. Yum update has never let me down. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of fedoraproject.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 16:18 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 12/06/2011 03:33 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > > Don't mean to toot my horn, but even myself, who usually has pretty good > > luck salvaging bricked upgrades, had to admin defeat with one of my > > patients, this time, nuke it from high orbit, and reinstall it, after > > the F16 upgrade made an utter mash of it. > > You misunderstand. I'm not asking why I should reinstall, but why use > the LiveCD instead of the DVD. I'd always rather take a few minutes to > customize my install ahead of time because it saves hours of downloading > and installing things later. And, as I already have a separate /home, > I'd need a kickstart file to make it start UserIDs at 500 instead of > 1000. Nuke, pave, reinstall may be better than fixing, but for somebody > like me, it's not the simplest thing in the world. out of curiosity, what is the requirement for having uidNumbers starting at 500 instead of 1000? I don't think that the Live CD isn't going to be friendly to keeping your /home partition. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
Joe Zeff zeff.us> writes: > > On 12/06/2011 03:15 PM, JB wrote: > > That's why I suggested a clean start. > > Yes, I understand all of that, at least as well as you do. (Hint: I > started using computers in 1968, and Linux in 1998.) You still haven't > even tried to address the one question I keep asking: WHY DO YOU WANT ME > TO USE A LIVE CD INSTEAD OF THE DVD? > > Sorry for shouting, but I'm really trying to get your attention to focus > on the question I'm asking instead of the one you want to answer. In the context of installing a fresh F16 I mentioned live cd as an example, at which time I was not even aware of your insistence on using dvd and kickstart. You do what fits you. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 06:24 PM, Mark C. Allman wrote: > What argument are you passing to grub2-install? /dev/root? > Does /dev/root exist? From what I've read and had to do the argument to > grub2-install is something like /dev/sda. I used this: grub2-install /dev/sda After it failed, I tried this: grub2-install --force /dev/sda Both gave the same error, but when I boot, the Grub menu claims to be from 1.99 so maybe it worked. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 16:29 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/06/2011 03:15 PM, JB wrote:
> > That's why I suggested a clean start.
>
> Yes, I understand all of that, at least as well as you do. (Hint: I
> started using computers in 1968, and Linux in 1998.) You still haven't
> even tried to address the one question I keep asking: WHY DO YOU WANT ME
> TO USE A LIVE CD INSTEAD OF THE DVD?
>
> Sorry for shouting, but I'm really trying to get your attention to focus
> on the question I'm asking instead of the one you want to answer.
Reboot using a rescue disk (DVD, live CD, net install, who the bleep
cares which). I haven't upgraded using any disk since maybe Fedora 10.
If I recall correctly the rescue process tries to find your file
systems. Does it succeed? It sounds like it should.
When you get to a command prompt in rescue mode can you
"chroot /mnt/sysimage" or wherever the rescue disk mounts your existing
file system at? Does it look like everything is still there?
What argument are you passing to grub2-install? /dev/root?
Does /dev/root exist? From what I've read and had to do the argument to
grub2-install is something like /dev/sda. What is/are the disk
device(s) in /dev? Which device that you see has the MBR? If you run
grub2-install on the proper device, e.g., /dev/sda, what happens?
If grub2-install worked then before you reboot disable selinux
("SELINUX=disabled" in /etc/selinux/config, I think). Reboot and see
what happens. If you can boot up OK then re-enable selinux. What
happens? Does your graphic environment (KDE, Gnome, whatever) still
work?
I upgraded using yum. I also had to run grub2-mkconfig in addition to
grub2-install. Took a little digging around to figure out that I needed
to do that also. When I first rebooted I just got the "Grub>" prompt.
--
Mark C. Allman, PMP, CSM
Allman Professional Consulting, Inc., www.allmanpc.com
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Re: Major upgrade failure
Joe Zeff writes: On 12/06/2011 12:39 PM, JB wrote: > I think you should download and burn F16 live-cd (XFCE I guess is safest for > you) and start with a clean install. Why? Wouldn't it be even better to create a kickstart file so that all of my installed programs come back and I can use my current /home partition, then use the DVD to get everything at once? (Naturally, I'd leave Gnome out of the kickstart file so that I only get what's needed.) Granted, you may be right about the fresh start, but I can't see bothering with a liveCD when I'd need to spend days, maybe, reinstalling what I actually need. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses. F16 turned out to be one of "those" releases. Don't mean to toot my horn, but even myself, who usually has pretty good luck salvaging bricked upgrades, had to admin defeat with one of my patients, this time, nuke it from high orbit, and reinstall it, after the F16 upgrade made an utter mash of it. Wasted an entire friggin weekend on that one machine, and I'm still pissed about it. Just declare defeat, pull your files off, and reinstall. And, what Alan said: use native partitions, and avoid LVM like the plague. If you have two hard drives, carve them into RAID-1 twins. Counter-intuitively, this actually makes it easier to avoid reinstalling, the next time someone proclaims that /boot, or the MBR, isn't big enough any more (but only as long as LVM is nowhere to be seen). pgpCD5Mq0t4Y9.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 03:15 PM, JB wrote: > That's why I suggested a clean start. Yes, I understand all of that, at least as well as you do. (Hint: I started using computers in 1968, and Linux in 1998.) You still haven't even tried to address the one question I keep asking: WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO USE A LIVE CD INSTEAD OF THE DVD? Sorry for shouting, but I'm really trying to get your attention to focus on the question I'm asking instead of the one you want to answer. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 03:33 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Don't mean to toot my horn, but even myself, who usually has pretty good > luck salvaging bricked upgrades, had to admin defeat with one of my > patients, this time, nuke it from high orbit, and reinstall it, after > the F16 upgrade made an utter mash of it. You misunderstand. I'm not asking why I should reinstall, but why use the LiveCD instead of the DVD. I'd always rather take a few minutes to customize my install ahead of time because it saves hours of downloading and installing things later. And, as I already have a separate /home, I'd need a kickstart file to make it start UserIDs at 500 instead of 1000. Nuke, pave, reinstall may be better than fixing, but for somebody like me, it's not the simplest thing in the world. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
Joe Zeff zeff.us> writes: > > On 12/06/2011 12:39 PM, JB wrote: > > I think you should download and burn F16 live-cd (XFCE I guess is safest for > > you) and start with a clean install. > > Why? Wouldn't it be even better to create a kickstart file so that all > of my installed programs come back and I can use my current /home > partition, then use the DVD to get everything at once? (Naturally, I'd > leave Gnome out of the kickstart file so that I only get what's needed.) > Granted, you may be right about the fresh start, but I can't see > bothering with a liveCD when I'd need to spend days, maybe, reinstalling > what I actually need. You see, the problem is that sometimes (often ?) your upgrade, in your case I believe via preupgrade, takes effect up to a release state only, which may be buggy (in this case I am sure it is, as I installed F16 fresh from live cd and systemd sys init showed errors, and as you should know it starts a lot of services: lvm, raid, networking, etc). This may be made worse by any F14/F16 packages conflicts/dups/problems, selinux issues, driver issues, etc. So, afterwards the very first step you have to make is to get access to your F16 system in order to perform 'yum update' to get your system (among others systemd) fixed with post-release updates (which are sometimes 0-day updates that did not make into a release cd or dvd or preupgrade). It is obvious that if you can not do that, you are stuck (catch-22). That's why I suggested a clean start. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
On 12/06/2011 12:39 PM, JB wrote: > I think you should download and burn F16 live-cd (XFCE I guess is safest for > you) and start with a clean install. Why? Wouldn't it be even better to create a kickstart file so that all of my installed programs come back and I can use my current /home partition, then use the DVD to get everything at once? (Naturally, I'd leave Gnome out of the kickstart file so that I only get what's needed.) Granted, you may be right about the fresh start, but I can't see bothering with a liveCD when I'd need to spend days, maybe, reinstalling what I actually need. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
Joe Zeff zeff.us> writes: > ... > I now have two crippled computers, > one that can't boot into the newest kernel and one that can't properly > boot except into CLI mode. People, I really, really need some help! I think you should download and burn F16 live-cd (XFCE I guess is safest for you) and start with a clean install. F14 is a non-systemd system and F16 is a systemd system, so it can be tricky; on top of that you have a graphics card driver problem (perhaps nvidia or other). Save whatever personal data (but not any config files) you can and want to a separate partition or elsewhere (cd-rw, for example). Why fight if you can start fresh ? In this upgrade path it is preferable. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Major upgrade failure
> I managed to get into F16 recovery mode and tried to run grub2-install, > but it failed, saying that it couldn't stat /dev/root. I ran telinit 3, > which worked and logged in as root. Alas, I still can't run > grub2-install, but on reboot it says that I'm using Grub 1.99, so I > guess that's OK. > > Normally, I could at least ssh in from my laptop, but it's not accepting > connections so I can't even do that. I now have two crippled computers, > one that can't boot into the newest kernel and one that can't properly > boot except into CLI mode. People, I really, really need some help! /dev/root should be a symlink to your root device so if you have the typical broken Fedora detaults you'll have something like /dev/mapper/vg_pointless-lv_root/ and your /dev/root would be a symlink to /dev/dm-0 (the device mapper device for the first logical volume) One of the other reasons I detest the Fedora obsession with lvm and initrds is this kind of thing - all this extra crap makes recovery hard and fragile. Anyway I would try putting in a /dev/dm-0 link by hand (or appropriate one for your root fs). See if that is enough to get it to work out what is going on. The other thing if the link seems to exist or is behaving oddly might be to setenforce 0 first in case the partial selinux labelling broke it ? Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Major upgrade failure
Last night, I used preupgrade to prepare my desktop for upgrade from F14 to F16 and started the process at bed time. This morning, it was hung while upgrading SELinux targeted policy. I used the reset button and tried again. This time, it seemed to work, but when it restarted, it failed to go into graphics mode properly and hung again. I tried to start it in the last good F14 kernel, as I need to do on my laptop, but that failed. I managed to get into F16 recovery mode and tried to run grub2-install, but it failed, saying that it couldn't stat /dev/root. I ran telinit 3, which worked and logged in as root. Alas, I still can't run grub2-install, but on reboot it says that I'm using Grub 1.99, so I guess that's OK. Normally, I could at least ssh in from my laptop, but it's not accepting connections so I can't even do that. I now have two crippled computers, one that can't boot into the newest kernel and one that can't properly boot except into CLI mode. People, I really, really need some help! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
