Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-22 Thread Stephen Morris

On 22/6/21 11:06, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 2021-06-21 4:29 p.m., Stephen Morris wrote:

On 20/6/21 02:22, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 21:44, Stephen Morris wrote:
My system has been upgraded from versions without ZRAM.  That is the 
reason my system has a defined swap

partition on disk.

I don't see the connection between Video Memory and swap.
As I understand it, because I'm not using a dedicated graphics card 
the video/graphics memory used by the vm is being sourced from real 
memory, and I assume as part of the memory allocation being given to 
the vm, hence would potentially increase the requirement for memory 
paging.


The system graphics card is irrelevant.  The VM display is virtual 
anyway, so I expect any memory used by the virtual graphics card comes 
from system RAM.


VirtualBox has a per-VM setting for its display and video memory. At 
least that is the case for VirtualBox running
as a host on linux.  I seem to recall you're using VirtualBox on HW 
running Windows?
I am running Virtualbox on a Windows 10 host as I am running on a 
raid 10 motherboard supplied raid environment and Fedora workstation 
won't install to raid (it can't see any devices), but having said 
that though, Windows 10 can't see any devices to install to, but the 
motherboard bios provides facilities to generate the necessary raid 
drivers to specify at windows install time, but unfortunately it 
doesn't generate linux drivers. The possible issue with video memory 
in virtualbox is the windows version of virtualbox only allows a 
maximum of 128MB to be allocated, which I think is no where near 
enough, hence the performance issues. This is also why I'm still 
using Vmware player, as it allows significantly more video memory 
allocation, and I was giving it 2GB of video memory, but with that I 
was getting performance issues (I was allocating 16GB of memory to 
the vm) and when I dropped the video memory allocation back to the 
recommended of 768MB performance improved.


You don't mention how much RAM the computer has, but 2GB of video 
memory for a VM seems extremely excessive.  Even the 768MB seems far 
beyond anything useful.  There's a reason virtualbox has a max of 128MB.
My system has 32GB of memory. I found that 768MB for the video memory 
(which is the recommended amount) was the optimal amount of memory for 
performance as decreasing the memory below that started producing 
performance issues in F34 as well, so I've left it as that.


regards,
Steve



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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 2021-06-21 4:29 p.m., Stephen Morris wrote:

On 20/6/21 02:22, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 21:44, Stephen Morris wrote:
My system has been upgraded from versions without ZRAM.  That is the 
reason my system has a defined swap

partition on disk.

I don't see the connection between Video Memory and swap.
As I understand it, because I'm not using a dedicated graphics card the 
video/graphics memory used by the vm is being sourced from real memory, 
and I assume as part of the memory allocation being given to the vm, 
hence would potentially increase the requirement for memory paging.


The system graphics card is irrelevant.  The VM display is virtual 
anyway, so I expect any memory used by the virtual graphics card comes 
from system RAM.


VirtualBox has a per-VM setting for its display and video memory. At 
least that is the case for VirtualBox running
as a host on linux.  I seem to recall you're using VirtualBox on HW 
running Windows?
I am running Virtualbox on a Windows 10 host as I am running on a raid 
10 motherboard supplied raid environment and Fedora workstation won't 
install to raid (it can't see any devices), but having said that though, 
Windows 10 can't see any devices to install to, but the motherboard bios 
provides facilities to generate the necessary raid drivers to specify at 
windows install time, but unfortunately it doesn't generate linux 
drivers. The possible issue with video memory in virtualbox is the 
windows version of virtualbox only allows a maximum of 128MB to be 
allocated, which I think is no where near enough, hence the performance 
issues. This is also why I'm still using Vmware player, as it allows 
significantly more video memory allocation, and I was giving it 2GB of 
video memory, but with that I was getting performance issues (I was 
allocating 16GB of memory to the vm) and when I dropped the video memory 
allocation back to the recommended of 768MB performance improved.


You don't mention how much RAM the computer has, but 2GB of video memory 
for a VM seems extremely excessive.  Even the 768MB seems far beyond 
anything useful.  There's a reason virtualbox has a max of 128MB.

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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Stephen Morris

On 20/6/21 02:22, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 21:44, Stephen Morris wrote:

On 19/6/21 15:31, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 12:45, Stephen Morris wrote:

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 
under a vm, that fedora does not have a swap specification in fstab 
anymore, but is using, in my case, and 8GB swap partition in 
/dev/zram0. Does this mean that if I create a swap partition of a 
bigger size and specify it in fstab it will be ignored?


Ignored?  No.  But not primary.  e.g.

[egreshko@meimei ~]$ swapon
NAME   TYPE   SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sda2  partition 16.9G   0B   -2
/dev/zram0 partition  4.7G   0B  100

So, it may or may not be used.


Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for 
determining the swap size based on the amount of memory available, 
is there any way to increase the size of /dev/zram0 so that there 
is more swap space available to the system?




I think

man zram-generator

will help in that.
Thanks Ed, I'll check that man data out. In my case with an auto 
storage configuration at F34 install time there isn't any swap entry 
in fstab or swap partition. I think I need to expand this in 
virtualbox as I think that virtualbox's lack of video memory is 
causing performance issues in F34.




My system has been upgraded from versions without ZRAM.  That is the 
reason my system has a defined swap

partition on disk.

I don't see the connection between Video Memory and swap.
As I understand it, because I'm not using a dedicated graphics card the 
video/graphics memory used by the vm is being sourced from real memory, 
and I assume as part of the memory allocation being given to the vm, 
hence would potentially increase the requirement for memory paging.


VirtualBox has a per-VM setting for its display and video memory. At 
least that is the case for VirtualBox running
as a host on linux.  I seem to recall you're using VirtualBox on HW 
running Windows?
I am running Virtualbox on a Windows 10 host as I am running on a raid 
10 motherboard supplied raid environment and Fedora workstation won't 
install to raid (it can't see any devices), but having said that though, 
Windows 10 can't see any devices to install to, but the motherboard bios 
provides facilities to generate the necessary raid drivers to specify at 
windows install time, but unfortunately it doesn't generate linux 
drivers. The possible issue with video memory in virtualbox is the 
windows version of virtualbox only allows a maximum of 128MB to be 
allocated, which I think is no where near enough, hence the performance 
issues. This is also why I'm still using Vmware player, as it allows 
significantly more video memory allocation, and I was giving it 2GB of 
video memory, but with that I was getting performance issues (I was 
allocating 16GB of memory to the vm) and when I dropped the video memory 
allocation back to the recommended of 768MB performance improved.


regards,
Steve

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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Chris Murphy
On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:25 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>
> On 2021-06-21 1:05 a.m., Bill Shirley wrote:
> > The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On 6/21/2021 3:41 AM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> >> On 6/20/21 7:25 PM, Bill Shirley wrote:
> >>> One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable
> >>> swap-on-zram:
> >>>touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
> >>> and define a swap partition in fstab.
> >>
> >> Why?
>
> I don't see how that's an answer to why you would disable zram.
> Especially when your later reply shows that you're not really even using
> the disk swap anyway.

Lots of folks don't realize that zram devices don't use any memory
(small amount of overhead based on the size of the zram device, and
driver; less than 0.1% of the zram device size), and that it's
dynamically allocated. But it's true that swap efficacy as a
percentage cannot be 100% like it is with disk or file based swap.
That it's so much faster makes up for the lower efficacy. By that I
mean, a 4 KiB page being swapped out to disk means you free 4 KiB RAM
and consume 4 KiB on disk. With zram based swap, it's still memory,
but it's compressed. So you free up 4 KiB uncompressed memory for
other things; and you consume ~2 KiB RAM for that compressed page in
the zram device. The efficacy is related to the compression ratio you
get, which is anywhere 2:1 to 3:1. So it's an efficacy of 50% to 75%.

For sure it's better than no swap which has an efficacy of 0% :) In
fact that's misleading because when a system can't evict dirty pages
at all, it's forced to do file page reclaim, i.e. libraries,
executables, configurations that exist as files on disk, can be
removed from memory via reclaim, because they're already on disk and
can just be read back in. But when under memory pressure, reclaim can
look a lot like swap thrashing and even compete with it. So some swap
is better, and also due to SSDs, we're probably better off with a
higher swappiness value, i.e. give equal weight to page out of
anonymous pages as reclaim.

But some workloads are different and you can actually get a kind of
in-memory swap thrashing same as on disk. It's so fast that it's
normally not a problem. Until it is. So we definitely want to keep an
eye on reports of folks having issues that sound like hangs or
lockups, any time the desktop becomes unresponsive we want to find out
what's going on

First thing to check in those cases is if the system is running
uresourced. It's only enabled by default on GNOME right now. But it's
considered safe to run as an opt in for other desktops, though we want
to keep an eye on possible regressions.

There is still more work to do in this area, in particular wiring up
the IO isolation. Any time there's memory pressure it'll quickly lead
to IO pressure: reclaim and swap.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Chris Murphy
On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 10:51 AM Barry Scott  wrote:
>
> The SSDs are a lot slower than compressing a page into RAM.
>
> There was extensive discussion on the Fedora Devel list when this change was 
> proposed.
>
> Personally I was convinced that this change is an improvement for any system 
> that is under
> memory pressure. I'm not going to try to recall the discussion as I may get 
> some details
> wrong.

At a high level, zram is a ram disk that has transparent compression.
You can format it with mkswap or any other file system, use it as a
block device.

But nuts and bolts memory management, reclaim, paging in and out, it's
quite complicated. There's work happening since kernel 5.8 to make
swap a lot more effective. And on going work to make mm and zswap do
the right thing. And zswap is a different thing altogether, it's a
front cache that uses a compressed memory pool as a cache for a
conventional swap file or partition. And it works on an least recently
used basis. So it has a way of determining what's stale and pushing
that out to disk, while keeping recent things in the (memory) cache.
In this case we don't have the concerns with priority inversions that
can happen when a particular sequence of events happens:

1. zram based swap has higher priority
2. conventional swap has lower priority
3. early workloads fill up zram with stale things not used again later
4. the general workload ends up using disk based swap

So this is not really any worse than before at this point except it is
consuming some memory, just to keep stale things available in case
they get used. And if they do get used, it'll be quite fast. That's
not obviously a bad thing, except it is taking a limited resource off
the table. That's atypical for desktop workloads. But you can imagine
that the more resources a system has the more variable the workload
can be, and you could see early swap fill up a zram device, and then
it can't be used again until the programs that created those anonymous
pages are quit, in the extreme case.

Anyway, how to optimize was the whole point of moving to zram based
swap. And it won't stop there. There is still more work happening to
get zswap cgroups aware. Neither zram nor zswap are at the moment so
for resource control purposes, we actually need a plain swap partition
or swap file, it can't even be on dm-crypt at the moment. And one of
the nice things about zram based swap is, it's volatile, so we have
less security concerns about questionable things ending up on
persistent storage that don't even go in a user's ~/home. Anything
could be evicted to swap.


> I switched it on in F33 and have for over a year seen no down side for my 
> work loads.
> My work loads are file+email server, firewall, KDE desktops, Kodi music 
> server.
>
> At my work once we get on to Centos 8 I'm planning to performance test with 
> zram swap.
> We have a work load that is very sensitive to disk I/O spikes and there is 
> some sad
> code that uses swap for 10s to 15s every 20mins of so that I want to make go 
> away.
> We have RAID-10 SSD where we see issues.

With centos 8 kernels you'd probably use zram based swap because it's
more mature in the older kernels. If you are able to use an elrepo
kernel you could try changing nothing else and see if the kernel 5.8+
changes help your workload all by themselves. And if not you could
look at either zram based swap or zswap.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 2021-06-21 1:05 a.m., Bill Shirley wrote:

The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM

Bill

On 6/21/2021 3:41 AM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 6/20/21 7:25 PM, Bill Shirley wrote:
One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable 
swap-on-zram:

   touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
and define a swap partition in fstab.


Why?


I don't see how that's an answer to why you would disable zram.
Especially when your later reply shows that you're not really even using 
the disk swap anyway.

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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Barry Scott
The SSDs are a lot slower than compressing a page into RAM.

There was extensive discussion on the Fedora Devel list when this change was 
proposed.

Personally I was convinced that this change is an improvement for any system 
that is under
memory pressure. I'm not going to try to recall the discussion as I may get 
some details
wrong.

I switched it on in F33 and have for over a year seen no down side for my work 
loads.
My work loads are file+email server, firewall, KDE desktops, Kodi music server.

At my work once we get on to Centos 8 I'm planning to performance test with 
zram swap.
We have a work load that is very sensitive to disk I/O spikes and there is some 
sad
code that uses swap for 10s to 15s every 20mins of so that I want to make go 
away.
We have RAID-10 SSD where we see issues.

Barry




> On 21 Jun 2021, at 09:05, Bill Shirley  wrote:
> 
> The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM
> 
> Bill
> 
> On 6/21/2021 3:41 AM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
>> On 6/20/21 7:25 PM, Bill Shirley wrote:
>>> One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable swap-on-zram:
>>>touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
>>> and define a swap partition in fstab.
>> 
>> Why?
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Bill Shirley

[0 07:20:34 root@yoda33 ~]$ swapon
NAME  TYPE SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sdc1 partition  64G 9.7M  300
/dev/sdd1 partition  64G 9.4M  300
[0 03:06:33 root@yoda33 ~]$ uptime
 03:08:30 up 23 days, 18:33,  2 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00

On 6/21/2021 4:18 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 21/06/2021 16:05, Bill Shirley wrote:

The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM


I suppose the follow-up question would be are you seeing the swap partition 
actually being used?

Does "swapon" show it has been used?



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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Ed Greshko

On 21/06/2021 16:05, Bill Shirley wrote:

The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM


I suppose the follow-up question would be are you seeing the swap partition 
actually being used?

Does "swapon" show it has been used?


--
Remind me to ignore comments which aren't germane to the thread.
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Bill Shirley

The server is running on Raid-1 SSDs with 64GB of RAM

Bill

On 6/21/2021 3:41 AM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 6/20/21 7:25 PM, Bill Shirley wrote:

One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable swap-on-zram:
   touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
and define a swap partition in fstab.


Why?
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-21 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 6/20/21 7:25 PM, Bill Shirley wrote:

One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable swap-on-zram:
   touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
and define a swap partition in fstab.


Why?
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-20 Thread Bill Shirley

One of the first things I did after installing F34 is disable swap-on-zram:
  touch /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf
and define a swap partition in fstab.

Bill

On 6/19/2021 12:45 AM, Stephen Morris wrote:

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 under a vm, that fedora does not have a swap specification in 
fstab anymore, but is using, in my case, and 8GB swap partition in /dev/zram0. Does this mean that if I create a swap 
partition of a bigger size and specify it in fstab it will be ignored?
    Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for determining the swap size based on the amount of memory 
available, is there any way to increase the size of /dev/zram0 so that there is more swap space available to the system?


regards,
Steve
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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-19 Thread Ed Greshko

On 19/06/2021 21:44, Stephen Morris wrote:

On 19/6/21 15:31, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 12:45, Stephen Morris wrote:

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 under a vm, 
that fedora does not have a swap specification in fstab anymore, but is using, 
in my case, and 8GB swap partition in /dev/zram0. Does this mean that if I 
create a swap partition of a bigger size and specify it in fstab it will be 
ignored?


Ignored?  No.  But not primary.  e.g.

[egreshko@meimei ~]$ swapon
NAME   TYPE   SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sda2  partition 16.9G   0B   -2
/dev/zram0 partition  4.7G   0B  100

So, it may or may not be used.



Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for determining the 
swap size based on the amount of memory available, is there any way to increase 
the size of /dev/zram0 so that there is more swap space available to the system?



I think

man zram-generator

will help in that.

Thanks Ed, I'll check that man data out. In my case with an auto storage 
configuration at F34 install time there isn't any swap entry in fstab or swap 
partition. I think I need to expand this in virtualbox as I think that 
virtualbox's lack of video memory is causing performance issues in F34.



My system has been upgraded from versions without ZRAM.  That is the reason my 
system has a defined swap
partition on disk.

I don't see the connection between Video Memory and swap.

VirtualBox has a per-VM setting for its display and video memory. At least that 
is the case for VirtualBox running
as a host on linux.  I seem to recall you're using VirtualBox on HW running 
Windows?

--
Remind me to ignore comments which aren't germane to the thread.

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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-19 Thread Stephen Morris

On 19/6/21 15:31, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 19/06/2021 12:45, Stephen Morris wrote:

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 
under a vm, that fedora does not have a swap specification in fstab 
anymore, but is using, in my case, and 8GB swap partition in 
/dev/zram0. Does this mean that if I create a swap partition of a 
bigger size and specify it in fstab it will be ignored?


Ignored?  No.  But not primary.  e.g.

[egreshko@meimei ~]$ swapon
NAME   TYPE   SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sda2  partition 16.9G   0B   -2
/dev/zram0 partition  4.7G   0B  100

So, it may or may not be used.


Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for 
determining the swap size based on the amount of memory available, is 
there any way to increase the size of /dev/zram0 so that there is 
more swap space available to the system?




I think

man zram-generator

will help in that.
Thanks Ed, I'll check that man data out. In my case with an auto storage 
configuration at F34 install time there isn't any swap entry in fstab or 
swap partition. I think I need to expand this in virtualbox as I think 
that virtualbox's lack of video memory is causing performance issues in F34.


regards,
Steve

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Re: No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-18 Thread Ed Greshko

On 19/06/2021 12:45, Stephen Morris wrote:

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 under a vm, 
that fedora does not have a swap specification in fstab anymore, but is using, 
in my case, and 8GB swap partition in /dev/zram0. Does this mean that if I 
create a swap partition of a bigger size and specify it in fstab it will be 
ignored?


Ignored?  No.  But not primary.  e.g.

[egreshko@meimei ~]$ swapon
NAME   TYPE   SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sda2  partition 16.9G   0B   -2
/dev/zram0 partition  4.7G   0B  100

So, it may or may not be used.



Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for determining the 
swap size based on the amount of memory available, is there any way to increase 
the size of /dev/zram0 so that there is more swap space available to the system?



I think

man zram-generator

will help in that.

--
Remind me to ignore comments which aren't germane to the thread.
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No Swap Allocation in FSTAB

2021-06-18 Thread Stephen Morris

Hi,
    I've noticed when trying remediate performance issues in F34 under 
a vm, that fedora does not have a swap specification in fstab anymore, 
but is using, in my case, and 8GB swap partition in /dev/zram0. Does 
this mean that if I create a swap partition of a bigger size and specify 
it in fstab it will be ignored?
    Alternatively, given the fedora is using it's own rules for 
determining the swap size based on the amount of memory available, is 
there any way to increase the size of /dev/zram0 so that there is more 
swap space available to the system?


regards,
Steve
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