Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
> > Check the documentation for: > > > > hdparm --secure-erase > > > > and/or --security-erase-enhanced > > > > gene/ > > How do you feel about the sentence in the man page jusr before thewse > options are described thus: > These switches are DANGEROUS to experiment with, and might not work >with every kernel. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. I think they make sense - secure erase erases your disk contents, its indeed not something to play with ! dd isnt the right way to do it (in some cases like USB pen drives it may be your only choice) and for ATA SSD's its not just the wrong way its a very bad way to do it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Genes MailLists wrote: >> >> > > Check the documentation for: > > hdparm --secure-erase > > and/or --security-erase-enhanced > I have used these commands for a number of drives - it is the fastest way to really erase all data on a drive, and effectively end up with the equivalent of a factory fresh HD. The only catch is that depending on your bios/hardware you may need to hotplug the drive before you get it into an "unfrozen" state with regard to using those secure erase commands. However as Gene says you need to check the documentation - googling gets the information you need fairly quickly. -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 12:03 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote: > On 08/29/2011 08:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > > > > Am 30.08.2011 02:05, schrieb Chris Adams: > >> Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: > >>> If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as > >>> simple as that. > >> > >> Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? > > > > dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/your/device > > > > > > > > > > Check the documentation for: > > hdparm --secure-erase > > and/or --security-erase-enhanced > > gene/ How do you feel about the sentence in the man page jusr before thewse options are described thus: These switches are DANGEROUS to experiment with, and might not work with every kernel. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. -- === Of course power tools and alcohol don't mix. Everyone knows power tools aren't soluble in alcohol... -- Crazy Nigel === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/29/2011 08:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 30.08.2011 02:05, schrieb Chris Adams: >> Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: >>> If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as >>> simple as that. >> >> Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? > > dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/your/device > > > > Check the documentation for: hdparm --secure-erase and/or --security-erase-enhanced gene/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Am 30.08.2011 02:05, schrieb Chris Adams: > Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: >> If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as >> simple as that. > > Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/your/device signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 11:10 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:05:11 -0500 > Chris Adams wrote: > > > Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: > > > If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as > > > simple as that. > > > > Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? > > hdparm supports it. > > hdparm --security-erase NULL (or the password) /dev/whatever > > Note that it wipes the entire media not a partition... Oh, if only I'd known two weeks ago. I tried "wipe /dev/sdb" on a 1TB drive replaced under warranty and it took over a week to make one pass. It wanted to do four passes (six for enhanced security), but I had to give up and ship the drive. Great tip, thanks. > -- Matthew Saltzman Clemson University Mathematical Sciences mjs AT clemson DOT edu -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:05:11 -0500 Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: > > If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as > > simple as that. > > Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? hdparm supports it. hdparm --security-erase NULL (or the password) /dev/whatever Note that it wipes the entire media not a partition... -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 21:05, Chris Adams wrote: > > Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? this one is a boot diskette... who owns diskettes, still? http://www.linux-kurser.dk/secure_harddisk_eraser.html FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 21:05, Chris Adams wrote: > > Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? On Windows theres a GUI tool that´s open source... http://eraser.sourceforge.net it includes several data-erasing standards to choose from. For Linux there´s "wipe" but it shows it was last updated in 2004, so I wouldn´t be surprised it it was developed for 2.4 kernels.. http://wipe.sourceforge.net/ But perhaps you won´t get into dependencies hell... Here is another one more recent and with GUI... http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/content.php?312-Secure-Erase-With-bootable-CD-USB-Linux..-Point-and-Click-Method/view/2 FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Once upon a time, Alan Cox said: > If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as > simple as that. Is there a simple way to do that on Linux? -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Robert Marcano wrote: >>> For the record, is there a Format option available in the current F15, >>> when you right-click on a removable storage device? Just curious... >> >> No, for one thing there are no desktop icons in Gnome 3, and >> right-clicking its entry in the Nautilus sidebar only offers to open >> or safely remove it. >> > > Open Nautilus, Menu Go -> Computer, right click over the device. Thanks Robert, you're right. There is a "Format" option there. I didn't think to look in the "Go" menu. -- Bryce Hardy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
> This is just plain wrong. For modern hard drives (manufactured after > 1994), it is sufficient to overwrite the disk once, with any pattern you > desire. I'm not talking about floppy diskettes or core memory here, I'm No it is not, because of things like block sparing. > talking about hard disks. > Also, I would bet that the longer the data had not been re-written, the > less embeeded it is, not more embedded. Again, we're not talking about > core memory. > Google "Advisory No. LAA-006-2004" for NSA's statement on this. http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/522022mchaps.pdf is a process manual. It's not precisely defining such things. It's also a very boring manual but happy reading. > and some of the old hard disks, like the RM03s. But for modern hard > drives, a single overwrite pass makes it impossible to recover prior data > from that particular location. That is they key bit.. the drive is not in any way required to re-use the same locations for the data. Furthermore a drive is perfectly entitled to optimise some types of common access (eg it could remember zeroed blocks by list). For rotating media sparing and some other goings on actually mean you won't always hit the same block. Move from simple rotating media and it all gets much more complex with SSD, flash caches and the like. Whether it matters really depends upon how valuable the data is and who the bad guys are. You at the very least talking a recovery tools and custom firmware. A lot of the people who can do that can also turn up at your front door with a warrant and ask you politely for the information anyway. Because of all this the ATA standards define a secure erase command which instructions the drive to securely erase its contents. On most rotating media this does a data erase of all data sectors in a way the drive itself knows is ok. On flash it may be handled various ways and on a lot of flash drives it is *much* faster than blanking all the sectors (almost instantaneous in fact), at least as secure as blanking all the sectors and doesn't cause drive wear in the same way. If you want to erase your drive, issue a secure erase command. It's as simple as that. If you aren't fussed just overwrite the metadata, but that in itself doesn't make old files that hard to recover, at least on VFAT file systems. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/26/2011 01:46 PM, Bryce Hardy wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > >> For the record, is there a Format option available in the current F15, >> when you right-click on a removable storage device? Just curious... > > No, for one thing there are no desktop icons in Gnome 3, and > right-clicking its entry in the Nautilus sidebar only offers to open > or safely remove it. > Open Nautilus, Menu Go -> Computer, right click over the device. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
I think this has more or less been said, but I'll say it this way. Regarding the use of the term "format". The MSDOG format program actually did (and may still -- i'm not sure) do a "low-level format" (which is laying down tracks on a disk) on floppy diskettes. Earlier microcomputer operating systems like CPM also had programs called "format" which placed the tracks on media so the heads could find them and they could be used. In the '80s Sun Microsystems had an operating system called SunOS, later named Solaris. It came with a program called "format". Last I looked Solaris still has that program. Sun's "format" program creates and modifies the partition table. That's it. It does not format the media in the traditional sense (laying down tracks), nor in the MicroSoft sense (creating filesystems). There are actually a few additional features, but they neither format the media in the original sense, nor in the Windows sense. In UNIX type systems the mkfs program is used to create filesystems. It is analagous to windows "format" function. So that's three completely different definitions of the term "format". Which is why there is so much confusion. Which of the 3 are you talking about at the moment? We might as well blame Microsoft for this problem, even if it was Sun that started the mis-use of the term. les wrote: > Formatting a disk simply redoes the partition table and zeroes the > segment pointers. It doesn't clean the disk platter. Deleting the file > means cleaning the segment pointer list for that file and marking the > directory entry as released. Note that once again the data is NOT > removed. Here we are, of course, talking about microsoft's definition of format. > When a disk is formatted, a casual user would find no directory entries > listed by the OS, and would assume that the disk is empty. Ditto for > deleting a file, if the file name disappears (marked unused) and the > segment list is nullified, the disk usage would be reduced in the count > of allocated segments, the file name is no longer reported by the file > system, and to the casual user the file is gone. > > Enter a requirement for security, and things are different. Using > recovery tools, those "deleted files" and "formatted disks" are still > full of data. And moreover, the file segments contain clues that will > allow the linkages to be recovered. Thus a formatted disk or a deleted > file can be recovered. To be secure means to remove all traces of the > file or to completely clean the disk. With today's disks containing > Terabytes of information, cleaning one can take forever. Agree down to here. >It takes > several varieties of writing to the disk to completely obliterate any > trace of the file data, to get the idea, just think of what the disk is > designed to do. It is designed to hold the magnetic fields for decades. > It will not give up that magnetization easily. Moreover, the longer the > data was in place, the more embedded it is into the disk coating, at > least until the coating begins to mechanically degrade. This is just plain wrong. For modern hard drives (manufactured after 1994), it is sufficient to overwrite the disk once, with any pattern you desire. I'm not talking about floppy diskettes or core memory here, I'm talking about hard disks. Also, I would bet that the longer the data had not been re-written, the less embeeded it is, not more embedded. Again, we're not talking about core memory. Google "Advisory No. LAA-006-2004" for NSA's statement on this. > Disk forensics will recover any formatted disks, and can recover files, > even after they have been overwritten a few times. Understanding this > is vital if you wish to provide security to yourself or your users. In > most circumstances, the only way to ensure the loss of all data on a > disk is to physically destroy the disk with fire or mechanical > shredding. Untrue wrt overwriting--at least for hard drives manufactured after 1994. Possibly true for floppy diskettes, especially the 5" or 8" ones and some of the old hard disks, like the RM03s. But for modern hard drives, a single overwrite pass makes it impossible to recover prior data from that particular location. That's not to say there aren't other ways to recover it--but not from the disk location that was overwritten. For example, some RAID levels can recover full disks of data after the removal and destruction of the disk. There are backup systems. Lots of other ways to recover data, but NOT from the locations that are overwritten. > Enter solid state media. The new flash products rely on physics for > storage. The data is permanently installed into what you could consider > electrically isolated canisters. To physically erase that data, a much > greater change in power is required, so the flash systems use a dc to dc > converter to produce a stronger voltage to overcome the storage a
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Once upon a time, Joe Zeff said: > On 08/29/2011 09:26 AM, les wrote: > > Enter solid state media. The new flash products rely on physics for > > storage. The data is permanently installed into what you could consider > > electrically isolated canisters. > > Isn't magnetism part of physics any more? Yeah, I was trying to figure out what kind of storage _doesn't_ rely on physics. Of course, if you consider any data "permanently" stored, you aren't using physics. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/29/2011 09:26 AM, les wrote: > Enter solid state media. The new flash products rely on physics for > storage. The data is permanently installed into what you could consider > electrically isolated canisters. Isn't magnetism part of physics any more? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 23:10 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote: > On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 14:30, Tim wrote: > > *Those* people are not the ones to pay attention to > > when trying to understand the computer. You are one of those people. > > Oh yes, I'm a complete fool. And ignorant. That's why I started using > computers at age 8 (a trs-80 model III) and why I learned 6509 > assembler, too. That's why I wrote about 500 articles about hardware > and software, because I don't know what formatting a removable drive > is. Gee, I thank the heavens that I ran into you to explain me what > formatting actually means... > > > You should be thankful that there are nitpickers correcting the mistakes > > that people make, and think, otherwise Linux would be the complete > > shambles that Windows is. > > Linux will continue to be the niche market OS if people like you have > your way. People who come from Windows will want to, gee, _format_ a > thumb drive either as fat16 or fat32, or ext4 why not, and they will > find no format command, just mkfs, which, gee, does what they want to > do. But is an 'alias' included? of course not. It's much better to > leave them guessing and asking 4000+ times on Linuxquestions "how do I > bloody format a flash drive"? > > http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=format+flash+drive+linux+site:linuxquestions.org&btnK=Google+Search&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.&fp=8611df39e77e29eb&biw=1360&bih=571 > > Four thousand results, I kid you not. On Linuxquestions alone. > > And not only that, God save them from entering this list, where some > will begin an argument about "formatting" not being actually > formatting, and that formatting does not erase the contents of the > drive. > > I despise arguments like yours, I really do. And I honestly believe > people like you prevent Linux from becoming mainstream. > > Hey look, IoMega and HP are language sinners too, they call formatting > something that, according to you, is not formatting!: > > http://www.iomega.com/support/manuals/zip2a/use_disks.html > "You can format your Zip disks to quickly erase all of the files on > the disk, change the format type (Mac or PC), or to repair a disk that > has developed errors." > > And look, HP too... > > HP USB storage Format Tool > http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-PCs-Deskpro-EVO/Help-with-HP-USB-Disk-Storage-Format-Tool/td-p/1126393 > > I guess you'll have to add the whole of the PC industry to your list > of evil doers. > Better start writing letters, quick... > > FC Ok, to a casual user, these statements have meaning, and the origin of that meaning is historical, and generally related to CP/M. But the reality of using a complex operating system and having the requirement to maintain ones own level of security with the system, means understanding at a low level what really happens. In FAT filesystems, the Partition table tracks segment usage, and tells you what size each segment is in blocks. A block is a unit of disk usage, and in most FAT systems is 512 bytes. A segment is some number of blocks, chosen to reasonably monitor the appropriate disk space. For FAT16 systems the numbers chosen limit the total partition size to 2Gbytes. For FAT 32 the size goes up a lot. I don't remember the total, and that number is not germane to the discussion anyway. Dynamically allocated file systems utilize INODES to manage the disk space and their space allocation is more dependent on the available file system, using less than 1% of the available space to control access to the remaining file system. A file entry in the root directory consists of the file name, and a pointer to the first segment tracker in the partition table. The location multiplied by the segment gives the relative location of the file starting segment. That segment consists of numerically sequential blocks of data, which may or may not be physically sequential which is controlled by the disk setup, and is determined by the access speed of the electronics compared to the mechanical access time of the data. Formatting a disk simply redoes the partition table and zeroes the segment pointers. It doesn't clean the disk platter. Deleting the file means cleaning the segment pointer list for that file and marking the directory entry as released. Note that once again the data is NOT removed. When a disk is formatted, a casual user would find no directory entries listed by the OS, and would assume that the disk is empty. Ditto for deleting a file, if the file name disappears (marked unused) and the segment list is nullified, the disk usage would be reduced in the count of allocated segments, the file name is no longer reported by the file system, and to the casual user the file is gone. Enter a requirement for security, and things are different. Using recovery tools, those "deleted files" and "formatted disks" are still full of data. And moreover, the file segments contain
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 15:37:23 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote: > > Remove and erase are synonyms. The people who argue that format does not > erase the files would have to argue that rm does not remove files. It doesn't really remove them, it unlinks them. (At least on ext file systems.) When the last reference to a file is removed, then the file gets is deleted. (Its space is made available for reuse.) You can actually still get copy of a file which has had all of its normal links removed, if a program has it open. /proc has a link to all open file descriptors for each process and you can use that to make a copy. (But not to relink.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 14:30, Tim wrote: > *Those* people are not the ones to pay attention to > when trying to understand the computer. You are one of those people. Oh yes, I'm a complete fool. And ignorant. That's why I started using computers at age 8 (a trs-80 model III) and why I learned 6509 assembler, too. That's why I wrote about 500 articles about hardware and software, because I don't know what formatting a removable drive is. Gee, I thank the heavens that I ran into you to explain me what formatting actually means... > You should be thankful that there are nitpickers correcting the mistakes > that people make, and think, otherwise Linux would be the complete > shambles that Windows is. Linux will continue to be the niche market OS if people like you have your way. People who come from Windows will want to, gee, _format_ a thumb drive either as fat16 or fat32, or ext4 why not, and they will find no format command, just mkfs, which, gee, does what they want to do. But is an 'alias' included? of course not. It's much better to leave them guessing and asking 4000+ times on Linuxquestions "how do I bloody format a flash drive"? http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=format+flash+drive+linux+site:linuxquestions.org&btnK=Google+Search&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.&fp=8611df39e77e29eb&biw=1360&bih=571 Four thousand results, I kid you not. On Linuxquestions alone. And not only that, God save them from entering this list, where some will begin an argument about "formatting" not being actually formatting, and that formatting does not erase the contents of the drive. I despise arguments like yours, I really do. And I honestly believe people like you prevent Linux from becoming mainstream. Hey look, IoMega and HP are language sinners too, they call formatting something that, according to you, is not formatting!: http://www.iomega.com/support/manuals/zip2a/use_disks.html "You can format your Zip disks to quickly erase all of the files on the disk, change the format type (Mac or PC), or to repair a disk that has developed errors." And look, HP too... HP USB storage Format Tool http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-PCs-Deskpro-EVO/Help-with-HP-USB-Disk-Storage-Format-Tool/td-p/1126393 I guess you'll have to add the whole of the PC industry to your list of evil doers. Better start writing letters, quick... FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/28/2011 10:41 AM, Tim wrote: >> It removes the file, or directory, from the directory*listing* (the >> list of what's on the disc). It doesn't actually remove the file (or >> directory). > > AIUI, it also frees up the inodes to be used again. A deleted file can > be recovered if *and only if* they haven't been reused. for filesystems that use inodes. charles zeitler -- Love is the law, love under will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 16:19 +0200, suvayu ali wrote: > On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > > But then what do we say the function of rm is. Does it erase the files > > that are its arguments. It also does not erase the file anymore than > > format does. > > The man page says: > > rm - remove files or directories > > I think you can call that accurate. :) > Remove and erase are synonyms. The people who argue that format does not erase the files would have to argue that rm does not remove files. So for them the man page would not be accurate. -- === He who hesitates is last. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/28/2011 10:41 AM, Tim wrote: > It removes the file, or directory, from the directory*listing* (the > list of what's on the disc). It doesn't actually remove the file (or > directory). AIUI, it also frees up the inodes to be used again. A deleted file can be recovered if *and only if* they haven't been reused. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 08:18 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote: > But then what do we say the function of rm is. Does it erase the files > that are its arguments. It also does not erase the file anymore than > format does. It removes the file, or directory, from the directory *listing* (the list of what's on the disc). It doesn't actually remove the file (or directory). The man page doesn't hide the fact that the file can be easily recovered. It even goes as far as to recommend a way around that, by using shred. And the man file for shred explicitly tells you that shred may no-longer be able to do what you want, because it relies of the file system working in a particular way (which it no-longer does). The whole point is don't muddy the waters by dumbing things down to accommodate fools. Formatting is formatting, not erasing; so call it formatting not erasing. Erasing is something else, an entirely different process, and managed in an entirely different way. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sat, 2011-08-27 at 12:02 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote: > Twisting the discussion to what words should mean is a futile exercise. Pot, kettle black. > Formatting a flash drive means what the gnome page says. Formatting a drive only means what formatting a drive *actually* does, not what people *think* it might mean. It's a fundamental issue that people using computers continue to fail to grasp. Computers do what they do, they're not a magic box that does what you think it does, while also doing what someone else (differently) thinks it does. > Let's do a poll on any street about what formatting a removable drive > means, in common usage of the expression. You can do a street poll on all sorts of subjects, and what you'll find is that there's an awful lot of fools out there, believing in utter nonsense. A lot of people have scant idea how their computer works, and what things do. *Those* people are not the ones to pay attention to when trying to understand the computer. You are one of those people. You should be thankful that there are nitpickers correcting the mistakes that people make, and think, otherwise Linux would be the complete shambles that Windows is. The one discussing what you think the word format should mean is you. Others are discussing what it actually means. There's a huge difference, and until you grasp the facts, you're going keep getting told that you've got it wrong. The facts won't change just because you don't, or won't, understand them. Regardless of what you, and a few others, *erroneously* believe. It's childlishly simple to get back files that disappeared thanks to formatting a drive. You're only highlighting your own ignorance to argue otherwise. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sat, 2011-08-27 at 15:54 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote: > On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 00:21 +0930, Tim wrote: > > > > Fernando Cassia: > > > I disagree. I think that is exactly what formatting means, laying > > out > > > a new file system, and erasing the contents in the process. > > > > You can think what you like, it doesn't make misconceptions true. > > > > And my comment was specifically about what I quoted, but... > > > > Formatting means preparing a file system, it doesn't *mean* erasing > > the > > contents. It's a side-effect that your files are seemingly erased, > > but > > they're not. They're still there. And easily recovered with the most > > rudimentary of effort. > It does mean erasing the files on the disk or other media. Now what dews > erasing mean. It means that any program whose purpose is to list files > on the media will find no files. That is what most people mean by > erasing. In windows the system, tells you that all the contents of the > file will be lost. That is erasing in normal parlance. > > You know a secret that you want us all to take note of. That the > contents of the files are not erased. Only the links that allow us to > find the files are removed. And if you are knowledgeable about the > structure of the file system you can recover those links and bring the > files back. > That is true but not generally useful. Or to put it another way it is > only useful to people panicing that a file seems to have disappeared. > > I also disagree with the statement: They're still there. And easily > recovered with the most rudimentary of effort. They are not easily > recovered and the process is not rudimentary. > -- > === > I've finally learned what "upward compatible" means. It means we get to > keep all our old mistakes. -- Dennie van Tassel > === > Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net > Actually I have used file recovery software. And while you may not think it is easy (it is not a trivial program to write is the meaning I think you inscribe to the process), running the program was quite simple, and it did recover my files. It took about 4 hours on a very large disk. But I just started the program and came back to find the disk recovered. To me, that is relatively easy. Regards, Les H -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: > But then what do we say the function of rm is. Does it erase the files > that are its arguments. It also does not erase the file anymore than > format does. The man page says: rm - remove files or directories I think you can call that accurate. :) -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 00:51 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 17:54, Aaron Konstam > wrote: > It does mean erasing the files on the disk or other media. Now > what does > erasing mean. It means that any program whose purpose is to > list files > on the media will find no files. That is what most people mean > by > erasing. In windows the system, tells you that all the > contents of the > file will be lost. That is erasing in normal parlance. > > I also disagree with the statement: They're still there. And > easily > recovered with the most rudimentary of effort. They are not > easily > recovered and the process is not rudimentary. > > +1+1+1 > > :)) > > FC Let us add another mini-fact. I don't mind adopting Alan Cox's suggestion to refer to the formatting process as formatting rather than erasing. But then what do we say the function of rm is. Does it erase the files that are its arguments. It also does not erase the file anymore than format does. -- === What this country needs is a good five cent nickel. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 17:54, Aaron Konstam wrote: > It does mean erasing the files on the disk or other media. Now what dews > erasing mean. It means that any program whose purpose is to list files > on the media will find no files. That is what most people mean by > erasing. In windows the system, tells you that all the contents of the > file will be lost. That is erasing in normal parlance. > > I also disagree with the statement: They're still there. And easily > recovered with the most rudimentary of effort. They are not easily > recovered and the process is not rudimentary. > +1+1+1 :)) FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 01:24, Tim wrote: >> To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" >> means... > > I disagree. I think that is exactly what formatting means, laying out > a new file system, and erasing the contents in the process. > > format d: on windows or > format d: /fs:jfs in os/2 > > Are the nitpickers on this thread going to change the definition of > formatting on the wikipedia, too? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_%28computing%29 maybe you should read this > > Or maybe you should go back in time and change all references to > ¨formatting¨ diskettes on AmigaOS, too?, and diskette boxes that > claimed "pre-formatted" > > FC charles zeitler -- Love is the law, love under will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 00:21 +0930, Tim wrote: > > Fernando Cassia: > > I disagree. I think that is exactly what formatting means, laying > out > > a new file system, and erasing the contents in the process. > > You can think what you like, it doesn't make misconceptions true. > > And my comment was specifically about what I quoted, but... > > Formatting means preparing a file system, it doesn't *mean* erasing > the > contents. It's a side-effect that your files are seemingly erased, > but > they're not. They're still there. And easily recovered with the most > rudimentary of effort. It does mean erasing the files on the disk or other media. Now what dews erasing mean. It means that any program whose purpose is to list files on the media will find no files. That is what most people mean by erasing. In windows the system, tells you that all the contents of the file will be lost. That is erasing in normal parlance. You know a secret that you want us all to take note of. That the contents of the files are not erased. Only the links that allow us to find the files are removed. And if you are knowledgeable about the structure of the file system you can recover those links and bring the files back. That is true but not generally useful. Or to put it another way it is only useful to people panicing that a file seems to have disappeared. I also disagree with the statement: They're still there. And easily recovered with the most rudimentary of effort. They are not easily recovered and the process is not rudimentary. -- === I've finally learned what "upward compatible" means. It means we get to keep all our old mistakes. -- Dennie van Tassel === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
> Nobody talked about secure-erasing files to prevent recovery by
> forensic means or undelete ("unformat") utilities, that issue was
> introduced into the discussion by nitpickers on this thread, who
> started arguments about what low-lever formating is, or what the
> format word should mean.
Well actually the nit picking is very very important here.
It's because 'writing all the sectors with zero' doesn't blank the media
that you don't want to pick a name that implies anything like that such
as 'erase', but want to use a term like 'format' which in the generic
sense does would avoid such confusion.
You could put secure erase on the menu too but its probably an obscure
option and best kept separate I would have thought.
So I don't actually think there is a problem.
Alan
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Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 12:05 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: > That isn't what the author wrote. No, but it's how I interpreted what he wrote. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 11:51, Tim wrote:
> With computing, deluding yourself that something actually means
> something else is an action that will come back to haunt you. Lying to
> other people is an action that may well cause someone serious problems.
Twisting the discussion to what words should mean is a futile exercise.
Formatting a flash drive means what the gnome page says. That is what
people want o do when they select "format" on any OS where the option
is labeled as such (amigaOS, Windows, OS/2).
Let's do a poll on any street about what formatting a removable drive
means, in common usage of the expression.
Nobody talked about secure-erasing files to prevent recovery by
forensic means or undelete ("unformat") utilities, that issue was
introduced into the discussion by nitpickers on this thread, who
started arguments about what low-lever formating is, or what the
format word should mean.
FC
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Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Tim: >> To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" >> means... Fernando Cassia: > I disagree. I think that is exactly what formatting means, laying out > a new file system, and erasing the contents in the process. You can think what you like, it doesn't make misconceptions true. And my comment was specifically about what I quoted, but... Formatting means preparing a file system, it doesn't *mean* erasing the contents. It's a side-effect that your files are seemingly erased, but they're not. They're still there. And easily recovered with the most rudimentary of effort. Only if you do a full format, writing zeroes to all sectors, will the drive contents be erased. Not erased against forensic recovery, though. But for a very long time, many different operating systems have only done quick formats, which just re-write the very beginning of a drive (or partition). Also, for quite some time, on various OSs, anybody attempting to do the long format hasn't actually done so, the drive has just gone through the motions, pretending. So, to be precise, and not lead anybody down the garden path: Formatting is about preparing a file system on a disc or partition. Quick formats simply re-do the master record, ignoring the file contents. Full formats *may* zero the drive, or may just chug along. Likewise with low level formats, which used to mean rewriting the medium at the lowest level (akin to ruling the lines onto a blank sheet of paper), but the drive often ignores the command. Erasing the contents on the media is an entirely different thing. It may be merely reclaiming the space for re-use, it may be secure destruction against someone else reading the content. It will depend on the type of erasure you do. With computing, deluding yourself that something actually means something else is an action that will come back to haunt you. Lying to other people is an action that may well cause someone serious problems. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 01:24, Tim wrote: > To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" > means... I disagree. I think that is exactly what formatting means, laying out a new file system, and erasing the contents in the process. format d: on windows or format d: /fs:jfs in os/2 Are the nitpickers on this thread going to change the definition of formatting on the wikipedia, too? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_%28computing%29 Or maybe you should go back in time and change all references to ¨formatting¨ diskettes on AmigaOS, too?, and diskette boxes that claimed "pre-formatted" FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 01:54 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: > On 08/27/2011 04:09 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> If you want to suggest a better wording, file a bug report and do >> that. That would be useful. > Should that be filed at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/ ? Or elsewhere? Yeah. That's the place Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 04:09 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > If you want to suggest a better wording, file a bug report and do > that. That would be useful. Should that be filed at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/ ? Or elsewhere? -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 12:35 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: > That isn't what the author wrote. If you want to suggest a better wording, file a bug report and do that. That would be useful. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 01:33 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: > On 08/26/2011 10:22 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: >> On 08/27/2011 12:24 PM, Tim wrote: >>> To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" >>> means... >> The other utterly funny thing is the very last paragraph. >> >> "Once the drive has been formatted, the files on it will have been >> completely removed, so you can't get them back. It is possible that >> special recovery software could retrieve the files, so formatting a disk >> is not a completely secure way of wiping a disk." >> >> The writer has managed to contradict themselves in the space of 2 >> sentences. >> > Yes and no. The average user won't have either the specialized software > needed for forensic data recovery nor the skills that Timothy McGee and > Abby Sciutto have in the use of those programs. Therefor, as far as the > average user is concerned, gone is gone. However, people with the > appropriate programs and skills can sometimes get things back. As it > happens, I know a man who used to earn his living doing exactly that, > although he retired a number of years ago. That isn't what the author wrote. -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/26/2011 10:22 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: > On 08/27/2011 12:24 PM, Tim wrote: >> To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" >> means... > > The other utterly funny thing is the very last paragraph. > > "Once the drive has been formatted, the files on it will have been > completely removed, so you can't get them back. It is possible that > special recovery software could retrieve the files, so formatting a disk > is not a completely secure way of wiping a disk." > > The writer has managed to contradict themselves in the space of 2 > sentences. > Yes and no. The average user won't have either the specialized software needed for forensic data recovery nor the skills that Timothy McGee and Abby Sciutto have in the use of those programs. Therefor, as far as the average user is concerned, gone is gone. However, people with the appropriate programs and skills can sometimes get things back. As it happens, I know a man who used to earn his living doing exactly that, although he retired a number of years ago. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 18:55, Alan Cox wrote: >> No another meaningless option that wouldn't actually do anything. >> >> If you want to blank a drive into a new file system format you just need >> to be sure to clean up any confusing superblocks and get the type right. >> For the same fs you will hit the metadata anyway. >> >> And if you want to blank a disk you need to issue a security erase >> command, not just overwrite the data. The latter does not do what you >> would always want on modern storage systems, particularly flash. >> >> Alan > > Yes "blank a drive" aka "formatting" it. > With the same file system it previously had. (fat32). as i understand it, formatting a drive doesn't necessarily overwrite the whole disk & blanking (erasing) it is too expensive for a default formatting. and Alan was perhaps too subtle- flash does funny things when you write to it. > > Doesn´t need to be a "full format", a "quick format" would do. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/302686 notice that in both cases, files are 'removed from the volume', not erased. > > So, I maintain my original comment... I think it should be possible > from the Gnome GUI to right click and select an option to "format" the > drive (who partitions a thumb drive?? 99.% are used in a > single-partition mode) this would be handy- but would probably be limited to vfat... > Hey, look here > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/disk-format.html.en > > "If you have a removable disk like a USB memory stick or an external > hard disk, you may wish to completely remove all of the files you have > on there. You can do this by formatting the disk - this deletes all of > the files on the disk and leaves it empty." delete- not erase. and certainly does not leave it empty- an empty drive has no format. > > Wow, plain English. No misconceptions about what formatting means. :) > > So let me rephrase my original post: on removable drives, shouldn´t > there be a "Format" option (or "wipe" if you wish) that invokes ´disk > utility´ with the right params to beggin formatting it?. with a prompt for the root password. > > FC > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > charles zeitler -- Love is the law, love under will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/27/2011 12:24 PM, Tim wrote: > To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" > means... The other utterly funny thing is the very last paragraph. "Once the drive has been formatted, the files on it will have been completely removed, so you can't get them back. It is possible that special recovery software could retrieve the files, so formatting a disk is not a completely secure way of wiping a disk." The writer has managed to contradict themselves in the space of 2 sentences. -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 20:07 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote: > Hey, look here > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/disk-format.html.en > > "If you have a removable disk like a USB memory stick or an external > hard disk, you may wish to completely remove all of the files you have > on there. You can do this by formatting the disk - this deletes all of > the files on the disk and leaves it empty." > > Wow, plain English. No misconceptions about what formatting means. :) To be pedantic, that's a complete misconception about what "formatting" means... -- Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 18:55, Alan Cox wrote: > No another meaningless option that wouldn't actually do anything. > > If you want to blank a drive into a new file system format you just need > to be sure to clean up any confusing superblocks and get the type right. > For the same fs you will hit the metadata anyway. > > And if you want to blank a disk you need to issue a security erase > command, not just overwrite the data. The latter does not do what you > would always want on modern storage systems, particularly flash. > > Alan Yes "blank a drive" aka "formatting" it. With the same file system it previously had. (fat32). Doesn´t need to be a "full format", a "quick format" would do. Let´s please not get into semantics here. If you say "reformat a removable drive" everybody knows what it means. It is not repartitioning, it is not low-level formating, it is not "secure" erasing all data so that no files can be recovered, it´s just, well, formatting... erasing its contents... like a "format e: /q" does in windows. Notice how all posts, are titled "formatting" http://linuxwave.blogspot.com/2007/06/how-to-format-your-flash-drive.html Even while in the end the tutorials tell to use mkfs... So, I maintain my original comment... I think it should be possible from the Gnome GUI to right click and select an option to "format" the drive (who partitions a thumb drive?? 99.% are used in a single-partition mode) Hey, look here http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/disk-format.html.en "If you have a removable disk like a USB memory stick or an external hard disk, you may wish to completely remove all of the files you have on there. You can do this by formatting the disk - this deletes all of the files on the disk and leaves it empty." Wow, plain English. No misconceptions about what formatting means. :) So let me rephrase my original post: on removable drives, shouldn´t there be a "Format" option (or "wipe" if you wish) that invokes ´disk utility´ with the right params to beggin formatting it?. FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
> No, the tool may be harder to find, but the need for it still exists. Most drivers cannot be 'reformatted' in the sense of putting back down address marks. They simply don't work like that any more. > You've obviously never had to reformat an IDE disk drive when power was > inexplicably lost during a write cycle and the write head wrote garbage > across some sectors that used to be properly formatted. This is a > function of how well the disk was designed and implemented. If you do > the same on a solid state device, you might write random data to a > random location, but that's about all. The actual blocks remain intact, > and don't ever need to be reformatted. Actually its a good deal more complicated in both cases. The disk is a storage system pretending to be a bunch of sectors on a bit of spinning glass and will manage such things internally along with the need to rewrite sectors now and then if adjacent sectors to the sides of it have been written a lot and other such magic. The fact it looks like a bunch of blocks on an ISA bus with some DMA glue added is simply layer upon layer of compatibility magic which really only gets broken in the mainstream for AHCI, and even then the disk pretends to be a 'disk' in the ancient sense as does flash. In the flash case a lot of management is needed for wear and because you cannot erase single sectors so need to do some quite complex block management. > > FAQ: How to format a Flash drive in Linux > > http://www.ehow.com/how_5092605_format-flash-drive-linux.html Which isn't actually formatting as such, it's merely updating the partition data and maybe writing some sectors. In the case of FAT that is going to involve writing the FAT and root directories so will do the job quite fine anyway as far as I can see. > > I'm not 100% sure now, but I believe even 1992's IBM OS/2 2.0 featured > > a "format" option on any drive object's pop-up menu > > Yes, another piece of software that was afraid to do something too > different from Windows but, Unix (and Linux) pre-dates Windows (at > least Windows 95) No another meaningless option that wouldn't actually do anything. If you want to blank a drive into a new file system format you just need to be sure to clean up any confusing superblocks and get the type right. For the same fs you will hit the metadata anyway. And if you want to blank a disk you need to issue a security erase command, not just overwrite the data. The latter does not do what you would always want on modern storage systems, particularly flash. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 17:08, Kevin J. Cummings wrote: >> I'm not 100% sure now, but I believe even 1992's IBM OS/2 2.0 featured >> a "format" option on any drive object's pop-up menu > > Yes, another piece of software that was afraid to do something too > different from Windows Oh, give me a break. You´ve obviously never heard of (much less used) the object oriented "Workplace Shell" (WPS) desktop. Neither Windows nor any Linux desktop ever came close to its OO-functionality. Thanks for the help with the formatting issue, anyway. FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/26/2011 01:26 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 14:05, Kevin J. Cummings > wrote: >> A pen drive does not need a low level format > > A pen drive is a "mass storage device" per USB specs. It doesn't > matter if the data is then stored magnetically on a spinning disk, on > flash memory, or hammered in wood by a robotic arm. Of course the drive has to be capable of reading what it wrote. B^) > "low level formatting" does not exist anymore on PCs since the advent > of the IDE interface, unless you use a manufacturer-provided service > utility. No, the tool may be harder to find, but the need for it still exists. You've obviously never had to reformat an IDE disk drive when power was inexplicably lost during a write cycle and the write head wrote garbage across some sectors that used to be properly formatted. This is a function of how well the disk was designed and implemented. If you do the same on a solid state device, you might write random data to a random location, but that's about all. The actual blocks remain intact, and don't ever need to be reformatted. > I'm perfectly aware of the difference between partitioning and > formatting. Formatting, as you well explain, is erasing the contents > of a partition by laying out a new filesystem... I do not agree with your "redefinition" of the term formatting. Perhaps its my history of writing formatting programs on CP/M and ZCPR back in the days of ST-506 disk drives, and 5.25" and 8" floppies. I wasn't sure what you actually understood given the nature of the question and your not wanting to use the proper tools to accomplish your end. If you question was solely why doesn't the UI provide the option, then you should file a BZ against the program in question. > The fact that a FAQ like the following needs to exist shows the > user-hostile nature of Linux in some instances... Yes, a user who > plugs a removable storage device might want to format it... S/he might want to change the file system on it, yes. S/he might want to change the partitioning of it, yes. Both are best done from the proper disk utilities. I have found that Disk Utility (in the System Tools menu) allows you to "format" the drive, if that's what you really want to do, but I rarely find the need to use it. Most people use pen drives as inter-machine data transport (what we used to call "sneaker net"), and require that it contain a file system that can be utilized on the least common denominator system (usually Windows). Personally, I feel that if you know enough about Linux to want to re-format a pen drive, you know enough about the proper tools required to do it. YMMV. > FAQ: How to format a Flash drive in Linux > http://www.ehow.com/how_5092605_format-flash-drive-linux.html > > ...and having to call GPartEd instead of showing a "format" option on > the object' s pop-up menu is just stupid. I don't want to edit > partitions, I want to do a quick format on the device to make 100% > sure any hidden auto-executable win32 code is erased. So, file a bugzilla request. It sounds like its functionality that used to be there and now isn't > I'm not 100% sure now, but I believe even 1992's IBM OS/2 2.0 featured > a "format" option on any drive object's pop-up menu Yes, another piece of software that was afraid to do something too different from Windows but, Unix (and Linux) pre-dates Windows (at least Windows 95) > FC -- Kevin J. Cummings kjch...@verizon.net cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 15:16, Bryce Hardy wrote: > No, for one thing there are no desktop icons in Gnome 3, and > right-clicking its entry in the Nautilus sidebar only offers to open > or safely remove it. I should file a RFE then... FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > For the record, is there a Format option available in the current F15, > when you right-click on a removable storage device? Just curious... No, for one thing there are no desktop icons in Gnome 3, and right-clicking its entry in the Nautilus sidebar only offers to open or safely remove it. -- Bryce Hardy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 14:05, Kevin J. Cummings wrote: > A pen drive does not need a low level format A pen drive is a "mass storage device" per USB specs. It doesn't matter if the data is then stored magnetically on a spinning disk, on flash memory, or hammered in wood by a robotic arm. "low level formatting" does not exist anymore on PCs since the advent of the IDE interface, unless you use a manufacturer-provided service utility. I'm perfectly aware of the difference between partitioning and formatting. Formatting, as you well explain, is erasing the contents of a partition by laying out a new filesystem... The fact that a FAQ like the following needs to exist shows the user-hostile nature of Linux in some instances... Yes, a user who plugs a removable storage device might want to format it... FAQ: How to format a Flash drive in Linux http://www.ehow.com/how_5092605_format-flash-drive-linux.html ...and having to call GPartEd instead of showing a "format" option on the object' s pop-up menu is just stupid. I don't want to edit partitions, I want to do a quick format on the device to make 100% sure any hidden auto-executable win32 code is erased. I'm not 100% sure now, but I believe even 1992's IBM OS/2 2.0 featured a "format" option on any drive object's pop-up menu FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On 08/26/2011 12:49 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 13:31, Bryce Hardy wrote: >> As a workaround, use Gnome Disk Utility, (search yum for >> gnome-disk-utility if not already installed.) Hopefully it's available >> for F10, I wouldn't know for sure. Hope this helps. > > Thanks Bryce! > > For the record, is there a Format option available in the current F15, > when you right-click on a removable storage device? Just curious... I would guess that it would depend on your definition of "format". Linux does not have a program called "format". What most people think of of "format" is actually a combination of other programs, most notibly laying down a file system (and not formatting the drive). A pen drive does not need a low level format (the program which lays down tracks and sectors on a floppy or hard disk drive). The pen drive is more akin to system memory where the storage "locations" are already done in hardware. For the most part, a pen drive is just a sequence of logical blocks of some default size. [Remember, that pen drives have a finite limitation on the number of writes that will succeed before the drive starts to "fail".] You can choose to partition your pen drive, or not. fdisk (or any of the so called XXXdisk programs) can write a partition table to your pen drive so that you can have multiple partitions if you so desire. Most pen drives come already "formatted" with a VFAT or NTFS file system already on the drive. But this is really just a file system laid down on the physical media. (Some come with a partition table, some don't.) If you require a different file system, you should use the mkXXfs programs to write out the type of file system you want on the drive. Most of these functions can be done from the disk utility programs which probably got installed in your installation (unless you did a minimal installation). I hope this was useful. > FC -- Kevin J. Cummings kjch...@verizon.net cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 13:31, Bryce Hardy wrote: > As a workaround, use Gnome Disk Utility, (search yum for > gnome-disk-utility if not already installed.) Hopefully it's available > for F10, I wouldn't know for sure. Hope this helps. Thanks Bryce! For the record, is there a Format option available in the current F15, when you right-click on a removable storage device? Just curious... FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Brain fart: no format option on a pen drive pop-up menu?
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: > I know I can probaly just format it from Bash, but I'm curious of what > is the expected way to initiate a drive format from the Gnome GUI > > I'm using an ancient system with Fedora 10 here... uname -a > 2.6.27.41-170.2.117.fc10.i686 #1 SMP Thu Dec 10 11:00:29 EST 2009 > i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux As a workaround, use Gnome Disk Utility, (search yum for gnome-disk-utility if not already installed.) Hopefully it's available for F10, I wouldn't know for sure. Hope this helps. -- Bryce Hardy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
