Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Bill Davidsen]

Tony Nelson wrote:
> On 10-02-08 10:20:42, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> Alan Cox wrote:
 Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in
 Fedora unless you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take 
 he respected cdrecord name and put wodim in its place. This seems 
 to me as ethical as selling replica Rolex watches, the user get 
 something other than what they expect.
 
>>> In which case please remmeber to do the following
>>>
>>> mv ssh openssh
>>> mv sshd opensshd
>>> mv cp gnucp
>>> mv ls gnuls 
>>>
>>> etc..
>>>   
>> Do you feel that any of these accept the commands of the original and 
>> are incapable of correctly producing the desired result?
>>
>> Neither do I.
>>
>> But wodim can not claim that behavior, and so should be called by its 
>> own name (and only that name, although I've used a few other names,
>> too, after wasting media).
> 
> Cdrecord cannot legally be distributed by anyone, due to license 
> problems.  Contact the author and complain.  Be aware that he is
> a difficult person who thinks he is as good a lawyer as he is a 
> sysadmin.
> 
I seem to have failed to make the point, I'm not asking anyone to distribute 
cdrecord, just to stop distributing a partially broken program of the same 
name. 
Or linking that program to cdrecord, or in any way providing a non-functional 
program which fails on Blu-ray, and is unreliable at best on SVCD and DVD-DL.

-- 
Bill Davidsen 
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Frantisek Hanzlik]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Bill Davidsen wrote:
>>> Just to be clear, I am not complaining that real cdrecord is not included,
>>> I'm complaining that something else which works differently is called
>>> cdrecord, and if I forget to put in the real thing I wind up with f___ing
>>> $3 Blu-Ray coasters! I don't care if it is compatible at the command line
>>> level, just that it is compatible at the "works correctly" level.
>>
>> Don't use wodim for Blu-Ray (nor DVDs), use growisofs, that's what it's for.
>> http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/
>>
>> K3b only ever uses cdrecord or wodim for CDs. For DVDs, and in the latest
>> beta version which adds Blu-Ray support, for Blu-Ray, it uses growisofs
>> instead. It does that for a reason.
>>
> Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in Fedora unless
> you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take the respected cdrecord name
> and put wodim in its place. This seems to me as ethical as selling replica 
> Rolex
> watches, the user get something other than what they expect.
>
> Real cdrecord seems to work correctly for Blu-Ray, and user would be far 
> better
> served by not having any cdrecord in a Fedora system at all, and letting
> rpmfusion provide the real thing.
>
> I would not be unhappy without cdrecord, I can supply it. Having a program
> pretending to be cdrecord which doesn't do Blu-Ray and seems not to do SVCD (I
> only tried a few, the files worked with real cdrecord) correctly. No, not much
> demand for SVCD.

I fully agree with You, and I interpellate too for relegation of real
cdrecord on rpmfusion. With actual excuse I have many problems, as well
as many peoples in my neighbourhood.

Franta
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Tony Nelson]

On 10-02-08 10:20:42, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Alan Cox wrote:
> >> Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in
> >> Fedora unless you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take 
> >> he respected cdrecord name and put wodim in its place. This seems 
> >> to me as ethical as selling replica Rolex watches, the user get 
> >> something other than what they expect.
> >> 
> >
> > In which case please remmeber to do the following
> >
> > mv ssh openssh
> > mv sshd opensshd
> > mv cp gnucp
> > mv ls gnuls 
> >
> > etc..
> >   
> 
> Do you feel that any of these accept the commands of the original and 
> are incapable of correctly producing the desired result?
> 
> Neither do I.
> 
> But wodim can not claim that behavior, and so should be called by its 
> own name (and only that name, although I've used a few other names,
> too, after wasting media).

Cdrecord cannot legally be distributed by anyone, due to license 
problems.  Contact the author and complain.  Be aware that he is
a difficult person who thinks he is as good a lawyer as he is a 
sysadmin.

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  '  
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Alan Cox]

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:20:42 -0500
Bill Davidsen  wrote:

> Alan Cox wrote:
> >> Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in Fedora 
> >> unless 
> >> you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take the respected cdrecord 
> >> name 
> >> and put wodim in its place. This seems to me as ethical as selling replica 
> >> Rolex 
> >> watches, the user get something other than what they expect.
> >> 
> >
> > In which case please remmeber to do the following
> >
> > mv ssh openssh
> > mv sshd opensshd
> > mv cp gnucp
> > mv ls gnuls 
> >
> > etc..
> >   
> 
> Do you feel that any of these accept the commands of the original and 
> are incapable of correctly producing the desired result?

There are certainly cases that is true for almost any command. There have
been many times where ssh and openssh were not fully compatible.

An even more classic example is "sendmail" where multiple commands that
are not sendmail claim to be that on many systems and provide interface
compatibility. This to the point that standards now recognize it as an
interface naming not just an application.

Alan
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Bill Davidsen]

Alan Cox wrote:
>> Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in Fedora 
>> unless 
>> you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take the respected cdrecord 
>> name 
>> and put wodim in its place. This seems to me as ethical as selling replica 
>> Rolex 
>> watches, the user get something other than what they expect.
>> 
>
> In which case please remmeber to do the following
>
> mv ssh openssh
> mv sshd opensshd
> mv cp gnucp
> mv ls gnuls 
>
> etc..
>   

Do you feel that any of these accept the commands of the original and 
are incapable of correctly producing the desired result?

Neither do I.

But wodim can not claim that behavior, and so should be called by its 
own name (and only that name, although I've used a few other names, too, 
after wasting media).

-- 
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  "We can't solve today's problems by using the same thinking we
   used in creating them." - Einstein

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Alan Cox]

> Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in Fedora 
> unless 
> you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take the respected cdrecord 
> name 
> and put wodim in its place. This seems to me as ethical as selling replica 
> Rolex 
> watches, the user get something other than what they expect.

In which case please remmeber to do the following

mv ssh openssh
mv sshd opensshd
mv cp gnucp
mv ls gnuls 

etc..

Alan
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Bill Davidsen]

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> Just to be clear, I am not complaining that real cdrecord is not included,
>> I'm complaining that something else which works differently is called
>> cdrecord, and if I forget to put in the real thing I wind up with f___ing
>> $3 Blu-Ray coasters! I don't care if it is compatible at the command line
>> level, just that it is compatible at the "works correctly" level.
> 
> Don't use wodim for Blu-Ray (nor DVDs), use growisofs, that's what it's for.
> http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/
> 
> K3b only ever uses cdrecord or wodim for CDs. For DVDs, and in the latest 
> beta version which adds Blu-Ray support, for Blu-Ray, it uses growisofs 
> instead. It does that for a reason.
> 
Well, the reason appears to be that cdrecord is not available in Fedora unless 
you install it yourself, Fedora has chosen to take the respected cdrecord name 
and put wodim in its place. This seems to me as ethical as selling replica 
Rolex 
watches, the user get something other than what they expect.

Real cdrecord seems to work correctly for Blu-Ray, and user would be far better 
served by not having any cdrecord in a Fedora system at all, and letting 
rpmfusion provide the real thing.

I would not be unhappy without cdrecord, I can supply it. Having a program 
pretending to be cdrecord which doesn't do Blu-Ray and seems not to do SVCD (I 
only tried a few, the files worked with real cdrecord) correctly. No, not much 
demand for SVCD.

-- 
Bill Davidsen 
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Just to be clear, I am not complaining that real cdrecord is not included,
> I'm complaining that something else which works differently is called
> cdrecord, and if I forget to put in the real thing I wind up with f___ing
> $3 Blu-Ray coasters! I don't care if it is compatible at the command line
> level, just that it is compatible at the "works correctly" level.

Don't use wodim for Blu-Ray (nor DVDs), use growisofs, that's what it's for.
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/

K3b only ever uses cdrecord or wodim for CDs. For DVDs, and in the latest 
beta version which adds Blu-Ray support, for Blu-Ray, it uses growisofs 
instead. It does that for a reason.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Hiisi]

2010/2/3 Marko Vojinovic :
> On Wednesday 03 February 2010 06:29:26 Hiisi wrote:
>> 2010/2/3 Oliver Ruebenacker :
>> >  I definitely see a need that PDF fulfills. The free software
>> > community should either fully support it or come up with an
>> > alternative.
>>
>> Actually, there is one. It's called ODF (open document format; see
>> [1]). And it is in use already [2].
>
> Does it provide automatic checking of forms you fill? Conditional questions in
> forms based on previous answers? Automatic copy-paste of identical information
> being asked more than once?

Yes! There's StarOffice Basic (OOoBasic) for such tasks. Sounds a bit
micro$oft, but I imagine one can load forms and smart fields using it.
I don't think there's a need for complex functionality in the document
at all. Would it be better to provide smart web-form that can produce
printable version later, wouldn't it?

>
<--SNIP-->
>
> Best, :-)
> Marko
>

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Alan Cox]

>   I definitely see a need that PDF fulfills. The free software
> community should either fully support it or come up with an
> alternative.

Send patches...

There is a need for various kinds of smart document, but it actually
makes PDF more hazardous the more scriptable it is. It becomes easier and
easier to bury other 'activities' into a form - you've no idea for
example if your tax form quiety squirrels away old versions of any field
you then re-edit (eg so they can use it to profile returns for possible
fraud), you've less idea what it communicates with.

There are already problems with "smart" electronic documents becoming
unusable for business contracts because even if digitally signed they
can contain obfuscated magic to change the value of the contract or the
completion date without changing the signature.

IMHO it's unfortunate Adobe is loading so much stuff into PDF rather than
clearly separating out 'trustable thing I distribute and read' from
'application in a document'.

Alan
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Wednesday 03 February 2010 06:29:26 Hiisi wrote:
> 2010/2/3 Oliver Ruebenacker :
> >  I definitely see a need that PDF fulfills. The free software
> > community should either fully support it or come up with an
> > alternative.
> 
> Actually, there is one. It's called ODF (open document format; see
> [1]). And it is in use already [2].

Does it provide automatic checking of forms you fill? Conditional questions in 
forms based on previous answers? Automatic copy-paste of identical information 
being asked more than once?

I can understand and appreciate how such a thing could be quite helpful when 
you fill out a bunch of documents at once.

The *idea* of what PDF provides (this latest functionality that has been 
discussed in this thread) is good. The *implementation* is bad and 
proprietary. But unless ODF provide equivalent functionality, this bad and 
proprietary implementation of a good idea is the only option, and people are 
going to use it.

Best, :-)
Marko

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Hiisi]

2010/2/3 Oliver Ruebenacker :
>     Hello,
>
<--SNIP-->
>  I definitely see a need that PDF fulfills. The free software
> community should either fully support it or come up with an
> alternative.

Actually, there is one. It's called ODF (open document format; see
[1]). And it is in use already [2].


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Worldwide_adoption

>
>     Take care
>     Oliver
>
> --
> Oliver Ruebenacker, Computational Cell Biologist
> Systems Biology Linker at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/sybil)
> Turning Knowledge Data into Models
> Center for Cell Analysis and Modeling
> http://www.oliver.curiousworld.org
> --

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>   That NIH insists on using Adobe Reader is indeed disturbing. But
>> then, what is the alternative to Adobe Reader, if free software
>> apparently does not support the latest PDF?
>
> Paper, as they have used in the past? A set of regular PDFs, one per form
> (and the fancy JavaScript-loaded crap as an alternative for the people who
> can't figure it out)? There are plenty of alternatives which wouldn't lock
> users into proprietary software. You should not give those bureaucrats a
> free pass for this! (That you have to deal with it is one thing, but that
> you then defend their unreasonable choice doesn't make sense.)

  We all hate bureaucracy. But I do appreciate a form that tells you
if you forgot to fill out something, or takes care of boring tasks
like copying or adding.

  I wish the tax forms were like this, and not like they are (e.g. "if
line 5 is greater than line 4, subtract line 4 form line 5 and enter
the result in line 6. Enter zero in line 6 otherwise" etc.)

  Instead, the US Revenue Service gives you a list of private tax
software, and when I try one, I discover after hours of work that they
don't support form 1046-S.

  I definitely see a need that PDF fulfills. The free software
community should either fully support it or come up with an
alternative.

 Take care
 Oliver

-- 
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Systems Biology Linker at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/sybil)
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>   That NIH insists on using Adobe Reader is indeed disturbing. But
> then, what is the alternative to Adobe Reader, if free software
> apparently does not support the latest PDF?

Paper, as they have used in the past? A set of regular PDFs, one per form 
(and the fancy JavaScript-loaded crap as an alternative for the people who 
can't figure it out)? There are plenty of alternatives which wouldn't lock 
users into proprietary software. You should not give those bureaucrats a 
free pass for this! (That you have to deal with it is one thing, but that 
you then defend their unreasonable choice doesn't make sense.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Mike McCarty]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>  Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:06 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
>> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kevin Kofler 
>>> wrote:
 Not really. It's a perfect example of bureaucracy gone mad. :-/
>>>   Why, how would you have done it?
>> Requiring only one form? Normal, non-bureaucrat people hate filling out
>> forms, the less there is to fill out, the better! And if the forms cannot be
>> filled out by a human without software assistance, something is really,
>> really wrong! Not to mention the reliance on proprietary software, which is
>> totally inappropriate for a government office.

[...]

>   That NIH insists on using Adobe Reader is indeed disturbing. But
> then, what is the alternative to Adobe Reader, if free software
> apparently does not support the latest PDF?

PDF itself is proprietary, that is the format. It is "open" in the
sense that it is published, and freely (somewhat) licensed, but it
is not public domain. I don't know of a free alternative to PDF which
is as useful.

Mike
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:06 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kevin Kofler 
>> wrote:
>>> Not really. It's a perfect example of bureaucracy gone mad. :-/
>>
>>   Why, how would you have done it?
>
> Requiring only one form? Normal, non-bureaucrat people hate filling out
> forms, the less there is to fill out, the better! And if the forms cannot be
> filled out by a human without software assistance, something is really,
> really wrong! Not to mention the reliance on proprietary software, which is
> totally inappropriate for a government office.

  This NIH grant application consists of forms about several separate
aspects: the research plan, the time line, the budget etc. Usually,
several people - researchers and administrators - work together to
fill out the forms. Some of these forms are only needed or used in
particular circumstances, for example, if one of the researchers need
to document their visa status, or if a project depends on specific
support from elsewhere. Merging all forms into one flat form does not
seem very helpful to me.

  Software is in principle not necessary to fill out the forms, but it
helps. It copies values from one place to another and checks whether
what you entered makes sense. Without software support, you would have
more work and higher chances of submitting an incorrect application.
People have done such applications on paper in the past, though now
NIH insists electronic submission.

  That NIH insists on using Adobe Reader is indeed disturbing. But
then, what is the alternative to Adobe Reader, if free software
apparently does not support the latest PDF?

 Take care
 Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kevin Kofler 
> wrote:
>> Not really. It's a perfect example of bureaucracy gone mad. :-/
> 
>   Why, how would you have done it?

Requiring only one form? Normal, non-bureaucrat people hate filling out 
forms, the less there is to fill out, the better! And if the forms cannot be 
filled out by a human without software assistance, something is really, 
really wrong! Not to mention the reliance on proprietary software, which is 
totally inappropriate for a government office.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>   I finally decided install Adobe Reader 9. It turns out there is a
>> lot more to this document than a simple 4-page form. Rather, it is a
>> collection of a dozen inter-dependent forms with various embedded
>> applications which do things such as saving, validation and copying
>> data between forms.
>
> What a mess!
>
>>   That explains of course, why embedded documents are used.
>
> Not really. It's a perfect example of bureaucracy gone mad. :-/

  Why, how would you have done it?

 Take care
 Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>   I finally decided install Adobe Reader 9. It turns out there is a
> lot more to this document than a simple 4-page form. Rather, it is a
> collection of a dozen inter-dependent forms with various embedded
> applications which do things such as saving, validation and copying
> data between forms.

What a mess!

>   That explains of course, why embedded documents are used.

Not really. It's a perfect example of bureaucracy gone mad. :-/

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>   On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
>>
>>   http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-
> cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
>>
>>   with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
>> displays instead of the document the following message:
>>
>>   "To view the full contents of this document, you need a later
>> version of the PDF viewer. You can upgrade
>> to the latest version of Adobe Reader from
>> www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
>> For further support, go to www.adobe.com/support/products/acrreader.html"
>
> When I open this PDF with Okular (which is contained in the kdegraphics
> package), I get this same message, but Okular tells me there are attached
> files. Clicking on that shows me that there's another PDF file embedded,
> which Okular allows me to save. That embedded PDF file opens just fine in
> Okular and displays a 4-page form.

  I finally decided install Adobe Reader 9. It turns out there is a
lot more to this document than a simple 4-page form. Rather, it is a
collection of a dozen inter-dependent forms with various embedded
applications which do things such as saving, validation and copying
data between forms.

  That explains of course, why embedded documents are used.

 Take care
 Oliver

-- 
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Systems Biology Linker at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/sybil)
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Roberto Ragusa]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>   That's interesting. What purpose could be achieved by embedding a
> PDF inside another like this?

That is the Adobe PDF history, as seen by me:

- start with a Postscript-like language avoiding Postscript problems
- good for printing!
- so I can send this pdf to you, you print it, fill the data and fax it to me
- hey, why can't the pdf file include the data, we need a web-like form
- add forms to PDF
- good, but I want to check the data you enter, web pages can do that
- add javascript to PDF
- good, but I want to send you this file too, it is related to my order
- add attachments to PDF
- good, I can have everything in a PDF, but the file is becoming huge
and it is not easy to email/store/copy
- add splitting support to PDF
- final result: you have some pieces, which are a bad zip-like container,
which contains random stuff, including executable code (Javascript malware...)

At the same time, Unicode support is still a mess (in a format designed
for textual documents!) and features are at war among themselves
(stream rendering for progressive display while downloading vs. append-only
document modifications...).

Now implement this stuff with a big inefficient client...

... and claim you are the state of the art for "electronic paper".

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Bill Davidsen]

Marc Wilson wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Bill Davidsen  wrote:
> 
>> That and putting in some hacked fork of cdrecord, I think it's called woeful,
>> instead of the real thing.
> 
> No, that's a licensing problem.  CDRecord's license is incompatible
> with the GPL.
> 
Just to be clear, I am not complaining that real cdrecord is not included, I'm 
complaining that something else which works differently is called cdrecord, and 
if I forget to put in the real thing I wind up with f___ing $3 Blu-Ray 
coasters! 
I don't care if it is compatible at the command line level, just that it is 
compatible at the "works correctly" level.

-- 
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   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>   On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
>>
>>   http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-
> cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
>>
>>   with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
>> displays instead of the document the following message:
>>
>>   "To view the full contents of this document, you need a later
>> version of the PDF viewer. You can upgrade
>> to the latest version of Adobe Reader from
>> www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
>> For further support, go to www.adobe.com/support/products/acrreader.html"
>
> When I open this PDF with Okular (which is contained in the kdegraphics
> package), I get this same message, but Okular tells me there are attached
> files. Clicking on that shows me that there's another PDF file embedded,
> which Okular allows me to save. That embedded PDF file opens just fine in
> Okular and displays a 4-page form.

  That's interesting. What purpose could be achieved by embedding a
PDF inside another like this? What is a standard PDF viewer supposed
to do with the file - simply display the embedded file or display
something else? Is it likely that this has been done intentionally to
discourage using anything other than Adobe Reader (or at least one
obeying a newer standard)?

 Take care
 Oliver

-- 
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Systems Biology Linker at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/sybil)
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Center for Cell Analysis and Modeling
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>   On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
> 
>   http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-
cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
> 
>   with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
> displays instead of the document the following message:
> 
>   "To view the full contents of this document, you need a later
> version of the PDF viewer. You can upgrade
> to the latest version of Adobe Reader from
> www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
> For further support, go to www.adobe.com/support/products/acrreader.html"

When I open this PDF with Okular (which is contained in the kdegraphics 
package), I get this same message, but Okular tells me there are attached 
files. Clicking on that shows me that there's another PDF file embedded, 
which Okular allows me to save. That embedded PDF file opens just fine in 
Okular and displays a 4-page form.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Chris Smart wrote:
> Same thing with Okular (KDE4).

As I just wrote in the other mail, you have to open the attached PDF inside 
the PDF. :-)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin Kofler]

Marc Wilson wrote:
> No, that's a licensing problem.  CDRecord's license is incompatible
> with the GPL.

That's not the problem. The problem is that parts of it are GPL and parts 
are incompatible with the GPL, so the licensing is incompatible with itself 
and so the software cannot be distributed under any license.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Antonio Olivares]

--- On Sat, 1/30/10, Marc Wilson  wrote:

> From: Marc Wilson 
> Subject: Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?
> To: "Community support for Fedora users" 
> Date: Saturday, January 30, 2010, 4:41 PM
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Bill
> Davidsen 
> wrote:
> 
> > That and putting in some hacked fork of cdrecord, I
> think it's called woeful,
> > instead of the real thing.
> 
> No, that's a licensing problem.  CDRecord's license is
> incompatible
> with the GPL.
It became incompatible with Debian, and thus the GPL :(, nothing said here will 
change it :(

Fedora, OpenSuSE and others followed suit.  They made a choice and that was to 
include the replacement.  Like get a Pepsi (TM) instead of a Coke :)  
> 
> > In general things should appear under their real name
> > for purposes of knowing where the bugs are and what
> you're really using.
> 
> No, in general the belief is that it's better for an
> application to
> appear as what it *does*, rather than what it *is*, so that
> stupid
> people are empowered.  People to whom it matters
> should know how to
> change it anyway.
> 
> Not that I care about evince at all... that's what Adobe
> Reader is for.
>
Here Adobe Reader is *CLOSED SOURCE* and free alternatives like Evince and 
Okular are better for me IMHO.  I don't want to deal with proprietary software 
and it(Adobe Reader) is not like cdrecord(original).  Cdrecord(cdrtools) is 
opensource just like you mention, but GPL incompatible because of differences 
with the author and Debian's maintainers :(  
> 
> -- 

Best Regards,

Antonio 


  
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Marc Wilson]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Bill Davidsen  wrote:

> That and putting in some hacked fork of cdrecord, I think it's called woeful,
> instead of the real thing.

No, that's a licensing problem.  CDRecord's license is incompatible
with the GPL.

> In general things should appear under their real name
> for purposes of knowing where the bugs are and what you're really using.

No, in general the belief is that it's better for an application to
appear as what it *does*, rather than what it *is*, so that stupid
people are empowered.  People to whom it matters should know how to
change it anyway.

Not that I care about evince at all... that's what Adobe Reader is for.

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 30 January 2010, Antonio Olivares wrote:
[...]
>
>How bout poor people that can't even get Coke/Pepsi/Dr. Pepper, but have to
> settle for Sam's Choice from Sams/Walmart or HEB Cola from HEB?  They are
> doing it because of the economy :(, but there is nothing like the REAL
> THING (TM)

That I guess may not be their real choice, but it is still the one they made.
 :)
>On topic here,

Naww, just a definite maybe. Off topic that is.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

It's ten o'clock; do you know where your processes are?
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Antonio Olivares]

--- On Sat, 1/30/10, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> From: Gene Heskett 
> Subject: Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?
> To: "Community support for Fedora users" 
> Date: Saturday, January 30, 2010, 2:13 PM
> On Saturday 30 January 2010, Mail
> Lists wrote:
> >On 01/30/2010 04:34 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> >> It's like asking for Coke and getting Pepsi, no
> matter how great someone
> >> else thinks it is, it's not what you asked for,
> wanted, or thought it
> >> was. ;-(
> >
> >  They are both soft drinks .. so in fact you got
> Dr Pepper - same color
> >also a drink ... 8=)
> 
> Yup, they are all sorta wet, and all loaded with enough
> aspartame to kill a 
> lab rat, but if I ask for a diet coke and get something
> else, somebodies 
> gonna wear it & it isn't going to be me...
> 

How bout poor people that can't even get Coke/Pepsi/Dr. Pepper, but have to 
settle for Sam's Choice from Sams/Walmart or HEB Cola from HEB?  They are doing 
it because of the economy :(, but there is nothing like the REAL THING (TM)

On topic here, 
Document Viewer is evince for users using Gnome/XFCE and it is okular for users 
using KDE.  Since I use the three desktops it can mean any of them :)  

Regards,

Antonio 


  
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 30 January 2010, Mail Lists wrote:
>On 01/30/2010 04:34 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> It's like asking for Coke and getting Pepsi, no matter how great someone
>> else thinks it is, it's not what you asked for, wanted, or thought it
>> was. ;-(
>
>  They are both soft drinks .. so in fact you got Dr Pepper - same color
>also a drink ... 8=)

Yup, they are all sorta wet, and all loaded with enough aspartame to kill a 
lab rat, but if I ask for a diet coke and get something else, somebodies 
gonna wear it & it isn't going to be me...

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

World War Three can be averted by adherence to a strictly enforced dress 
code!
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Mail Lists]

On 01/30/2010 04:34 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:

> It's like asking for Coke and getting Pepsi, no matter how great someone else 
> thinks it is, it's not what you asked for, wanted, or thought it was. ;-(
> 

  They are both soft drinks .. so in fact you got Dr Pepper - same color
also a drink ... 8=)
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Bill Davidsen]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:59:39 -0500
> Mail Lists wrote:
> 
>>   That is plain silly - it should call itself what it is - evince.
> 
> People have tried to fight that fight before to no avail :-).
> 
> I finally learned all the menu entries are stashed under
> /usr/share/applications/ and grep in there when I want to
> find the actual name for an app.

That and putting in some hacked fork of cdrecord, I think it's called woeful, 
instead of the real thing. In general things should appear under their real 
name 
for purposes of knowing where the bugs are and what you're really using.

It's like asking for Coke and getting Pepsi, no matter how great someone else 
thinks it is, it's not what you asked for, wanted, or thought it was. ;-(

-- 
Bill Davidsen 
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Frank Cox]

On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 19:22 +1100, Chris Smart wrote:
> Same thing with Okular (KDE4).

It's my understanding that all of the currently available free PDF
readers on Linux use the poppler library to render the PDF. 
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Chris Smart]

2010/1/30 Chris Smart :
> PDF 1.4 is an open standard, but Adobe products tend to "extent" the
> standard which can make their PDFs incompatible with standards based
> readers. Most annoying..
>

Looks like PDF has been updated to 1.7, which is ISO standard 32000-1.
"http://www.iso.org/iso/pressrelease.htm?refid=Ref1141";

I guess free products don't yet support 1.7..

-c
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Chris Smart]

2010/1/30 Oliver Ruebenacker :
>     Hello,
>
>  On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
>
>  http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
>
>  with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
> displays instead of the document the following message:
>

Same thing with Okular (KDE4).

Interestingly enough, it also says there are embedded documents, which
I can save out. There's another pdf in there about "Budget" or
something..

PDF 1.4 is an open standard, but Adobe products tend to "extent" the
standard which can make their PDFs incompatible with standards based
readers. Most annoying..

-c
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Tom Horsley]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:59:39 -0500
Mail Lists wrote:

>   That is plain silly - it should call itself what it is - evince.

People have tried to fight that fight before to no avail :-).

I finally learned all the menu entries are stashed under
/usr/share/applications/ and grep in there when I want to
find the actual name for an app.
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Mail Lists]

On 01/29/2010 08:29 PM, Kevin J. Cummings wrote:

> There is no RPM named DocumentViewer.  However, I *do* have evince
> installed on my F11 machine, and when it opens it claims to be "Document
> Viewer".  SO, I would say what you are using is indeed "evince".  File
> you bug report against it.  (thanks for the screenshot)
> 

  That is plain silly - it should call itself what it is - evince.

   It would be fine for it to say - "evince a pdf document viewer" . but
just document viewer ? mmm what doc ? what program ? ug.


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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin J. Cummings]

On 01/29/2010 08:20 PM, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>  Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Kevin J. Cummings
>  wrote:
>> I'm not sure if "Document Viewer" is a Fedora generic tool that is
>> configurable to point to one specific tool (preferred application) or not.
> 
>   It presents itself as an application that calls itself "Document
> Viewer" (see attached screenshot).

There is no RPM named DocumentViewer.  However, I *do* have evince
installed on my F11 machine, and when it opens it claims to be "Document
Viewer".  SO, I would say what you are using is indeed "evince".  File
you bug report against it.  (thanks for the screenshot)

>  Take care
>  Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Kevin J. Cummings
 wrote:
> I'm not sure if "Document Viewer" is a Fedora generic tool that is
> configurable to point to one specific tool (preferred application) or not.

  It presents itself as an application that calls itself "Document
Viewer" (see attached screenshot).

 Take care
 Oliver

-- 
Oliver Ruebenacker, Computational Cell Biologist
Systems Biology Linker at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/sybil)
Turning Knowledge Data into Models
Center for Cell Analysis and Modeling
http://www.oliver.curiousworld.org
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin J. Cummings]

On 01/29/2010 08:00 PM, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>  Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Frank Cox  wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 19:23 -0500, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>>> Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative?
>>> Thanks!
>>
>> There are some PDF documents that can apparently be opened with Adobe
>> Reader.
>>
>> You might want to add the document you cited to the bug report here:
>>
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=220983
> 
>   BTW, is the Document Viewer the same as evince, or only made by the
> same people?

There are 2 or 3(?) "document viewers" out there besides Acroread.
Evince and xpdf spring to mind immediately.

A quick "yum search PDF" says that openoffice Draw will import PDFs,
epdfview, and pdf-renderer are also out there, plus a slew of pdf2xxx
programs to convert pdfs to something else

I'm not sure if "Document Viewer" is a Fedora generic tool that is
configurable to point to one specific tool (preferred application) or not.

>  Take care
>  Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Frank Cox  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 19:23 -0500, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>> Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative?
>> Thanks!
>
> There are some PDF documents that can apparently be opened with Adobe
> Reader.
>
> You might want to add the document you cited to the bug report here:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=220983

  BTW, is the Document Viewer the same as evince, or only made by the
same people?

 Take care
 Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Oliver Ruebenacker]

 Hello,

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Frank Cox  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 19:23 -0500, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>> Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative?
>> Thanks!
>
> There are some PDF documents that can apparently be opened with Adobe
> Reader.
>
> You might want to add the document you cited to the bug report here:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=220983

  Is it the same bug? The comments there talk about black boxes. I, on
the other hand, see no black boxes, but the message I quoted.

 Take care
 Oliver

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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Frank Cox]

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 19:23 -0500, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
> Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative?
> Thanks!

There are some PDF documents that can apparently be opened with Adobe
Reader.

You might want to add the document you cited to the bug report here:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=220983


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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Paolo Galtieri]

On 01/29/2010 05:28 PM, Kevin J. Cummings wrote:
> On 01/29/2010 07:23 PM, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>
>>   Hello,
>>
>>On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
>>
>>
>> http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
>>
>>with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
>> displays instead of the document the following message:
>>
>>"To view the full contents of this document, you need a later
>> version of the PDF viewer. You can upgrade
>> to the latest version of Adobe Reader from
>> www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
>> For further support, go to www.adobe.com/support/products/acrreader.html"
>>
>>I saw some references to this message on the web, but could not make
>> sense of it.
>>
>>Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative? Thanks!
>>  
> It opens just fine in the version of Adobe Reader I have installed
> (Version 9.3, dated 12/22/09) on F11.
>
>
>>   Take care
>>   Oliver
>>
>>  
>
>
The message is coming from evince not acroread.   Latest acroread (9.3) 
opens it fine.

Paolo
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Re: Document Viewer can not open latest PDF?

[Kevin J. Cummings]

On 01/29/2010 07:23 PM, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
>  Hello,
> 
>   On a fully updated F12, I try to open the following link
> 
>   
> http://apply07.grants.gov/apply/opportunities/packages/oppPA-10-063-cidADOBE-FORMS-B.pdf
> 
>   with the default Document Viewer, and the Document Viewer opens and
> displays instead of the document the following message:
> 
>   "To view the full contents of this document, you need a later
> version of the PDF viewer. You can upgrade
> to the latest version of Adobe Reader from
> www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
> For further support, go to www.adobe.com/support/products/acrreader.html"
> 
>   I saw some references to this message on the web, but could not make
> sense of it.
> 
>   Does this mean I need Adobe Reader or is there a F12 Alternative? Thanks!

It opens just fine in the version of Adobe Reader I have installed
(Version 9.3, dated 12/22/09) on F11.

>  Take care
>  Oliver
> 


-- 
Kevin J. Cummings
kjch...@rcn.com
cummi...@kjchome.homeip.net
cummi...@kjc386.framingham.ma.us
Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org)
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