Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/09 09:19, Claude Jones wrote:
On 1/7/2012 4:55 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
Which is not what you said; you made a Great Big Fscking Deal out of the
fact that you "need to log in," which as I pointed out is false for most
people. Now, if you're so lazy that you can't be arsed..
what I said in my original defense of my post re: Christopher's assertion on
fora vs mail-lists - "the phrasing is precisely the kind of sophomoric posturing
that leads to endless disputes"
Perhaps my choice of words in the original reply to Christopher Svanefalk which
triggered this side thread was inappropriate, but my concern for what it might
trigger was not
Now, suppose I posted the following:
"Gnome3, after suitable configuration, is the greatest desktop environment ever
created for Linux"
Declarations of this type are never useful - I rest...
That needs to be wrapped in an IMAO and a YMMV disclaimer pair. Otherwise it
overruns into a religious war. We have enough of that going on around us. We
don't need to create our own rwars.
{^_-}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/09/2012 09:19 AM, Claude Jones wrote: "Gnome3, after suitable configuration, is the greatest desktop environment ever created for Linux" I would have given your obvious troll the type of response it deserved: none. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/7/2012 4:55 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: Which is not what you said; you made a Great Big Fscking Deal out of the fact that you "need to log in," which as I pointed out is false for most people. Now, if you're so lazy that you can't be arsed.. what I said in my original defense of my post re: Christopher's assertion on fora vs mail-lists - "the phrasing is precisely the kind of sophomoric posturing that leads to endless disputes" Perhaps my choice of words in the original reply to Christopher Svanefalk which triggered this side thread was inappropriate, but my concern for what it might trigger was not Now, suppose I posted the following: "Gnome3, after suitable configuration, is the greatest desktop environment ever created for Linux" Declarations of this type are never useful - I rest... -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 16:40, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 04:28 PM, jdow wrote:
I've not really run across a forum that isn't very "flat"
in structure that leads to people reading it all or at least scanning it
all.
Both fora have a number of specialized sub-boards. As I'm not interested in
issues related to servers, I don't look at that board at the Fedora Forum. I
rarely check out the Hardware board because my interests and skills are strictly
software. And, of course, I don't even need to glance at most of the threads to
know I'm not interested, something that's often less easy with email, especially
if your client automatically opens the next message when you delete the one
you're reading.
That is an annoying problem. At least the escape key puts it away.
For reading something like LKML I let a large batch come in, sort it by
subject, scan down the subjects sampling ones that look like interesting
problems (it's fun to watch such being solved), and sample. If I don't
like what I see I use the escape key and start wandering down the message
list from were I stopped. When I am all done I simply delete the whole
batch at once. Of course, on other lists I use other strategies all aimed
at maximizing my reward for minimum time penalty. I "meta-hack" the software
sometimes using interface features in ways the designers may not have
anticipated.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 04:28 PM, jdow wrote: I've not really run across a forum that isn't very "flat" in structure that leads to people reading it all or at least scanning it all. Both fora have a number of specialized sub-boards. As I'm not interested in issues related to servers, I don't look at that board at the Fedora Forum. I rarely check out the Hardware board because my interests and skills are strictly software. And, of course, I don't even need to glance at most of the threads to know I'm not interested, something that's often less easy with email, especially if your client automatically opens the next message when you delete the one you're reading. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 16:21, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 04:01 PM, jdow wrote:
Most are
dreadful, like the Mozilla fora structure. You often can easily find a
dozen
people asking the same question and no answers.
Not only that, on the Mozilla forum, if you do get a reply, almost half the time
it won't be relevant to your question, or will tell you how to do something you
said in your original question that you'd tried already. At that, it's better
than the Gnome forum I found; for all practical purposes, I found it to be a
"write only" group because nobody ever bothered answering anybody's questions.
However, both the Fedora and XFCE forum are quite good. You generally get at
least one answer in under a day, if anybody happens to be able to help. And, the
Ubuntu forum, which I check out once in a while to help my sister is so active
that it's rare to see an unanswered thread on the first page that's over about
two hours old or so. And, if you really need help with XFCE, one of the forum
regulars describes himself as a "Core Developer," giving us almost direct access
to the XFCE devs.
This is why, on occasion, I'll point somebody to the Fedora Forum, but I'd never
point one to the Gnome forum I know of because that would be wasting the
poster's valuable time.
Then there are Fedora and XFCE related "experts" who get a nice feel good out
of helping people. They prowl all the new entries to see if they can help and
do help if they can. I've not really run across a forum that isn't very "flat"
in structure that leads to people reading it all or at least scanning it all.
As I noted, I'd have never bothered to stick with a forum long enough to notice
Reindl's difficulty and solution with an iptables problem. With the email reader
and sorting by email subject it sort of popped out at me so I checked it out in
about 2 seconds of effort.
Forums, for me, violate the 20/20 rule. (If it is more than 20' or 20 seconds
out of the way, it never gets visited.)
{^_-}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 16:13, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 03:49 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 08.01.2012 00:47, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote:
workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size
doesn't fit all
...and for some of us, fora fit better than email
boah that was not the point
you are hanging on the single word "login" and do
not realize the whole time that this was never the
point of the post you answered
And where, pray tell, did I mention that word in the post you're responding to?
what is your problem?
Arrogant, narrow-minded jerks like you.
You two seem to be running afoul of a very common mailing list or forum
problem - message lag. At the moment it looks to me, a third party to the
argument, that you guys are now arguing past each other due to heightened
emotions. As far as I can see you've both expressed your views and your
starting assumptions. Both are good conclusions given your starting points.
You both won.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 08.01.2012 01:13, schrieb Joe Zeff: >>> ...and for some of us, fora fit better than email >> >> boah that was not the point >> >> you are hanging on the single word "login" and do >> not realize the whole time that this was never the >> point of the post you answered >> > > And where, pray tell, did I mention that word in the post you're responding > to? JZ: "the main reason I made a point out of the login issue was to show that it wasn't true for most people" JZ: "All of the fora I currently use allow you to log in automatically" so not that it would not be enough that you do not read and understand what others saying before you blidly reply you arve even not knowing what YOU are saying >> what is your problem? >> > Arrogant, narrow-minded jerks like you low-brained replies like yours resulting in people getting arrogant because get replies like yours gives the feeling be surrounded by * signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 04:01 PM, jdow wrote: Most are dreadful, like the Mozilla fora structure. You often can easily find a dozen people asking the same question and no answers. Not only that, on the Mozilla forum, if you do get a reply, almost half the time it won't be relevant to your question, or will tell you how to do something you said in your original question that you'd tried already. At that, it's better than the Gnome forum I found; for all practical purposes, I found it to be a "write only" group because nobody ever bothered answering anybody's questions. However, both the Fedora and XFCE forum are quite good. You generally get at least one answer in under a day, if anybody happens to be able to help. And, the Ubuntu forum, which I check out once in a while to help my sister is so active that it's rare to see an unanswered thread on the first page that's over about two hours old or so. And, if you really need help with XFCE, one of the forum regulars describes himself as a "Core Developer," giving us almost direct access to the XFCE devs. This is why, on occasion, I'll point somebody to the Fedora Forum, but I'd never point one to the Gnome forum I know of because that would be wasting the poster's valuable time. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 15:49, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 08.01.2012 00:47, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote:
workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size
doesn't fit all
...and for some of us, fora fit better than email
boah that was not the point
you are hanging on the single word "login" and do
not realize the whole time that this was never the
point of the post you answered
what is your problem?
Relax Reindl. I think that issue has been dealt with. Overall the aim for
an information exchange system needs to be carefully defined. Then you must
examine the resources likely to be expended on "maintaining" it. After that
is done you can examine the mailing list and all the different forum concepts
to figure out which has a better chance of meeting the objective. After that
you decide which to use.
This mailing list is heavily oriented towards peer to peer help. Messages are
more likely to be read by many people and answered by those who can on a
mailing list than on a forum. If you're doing customer support for a company
then a forum is likely to be good. It can be (sort of) searched to see if your
problem has been settled before. If not you ask a question and a vendor rep
answers it. It's good for customers and likely a pain for the support staff.
I also note that I feel there is room for another approach to be developed
that is different from news groups, mailing lists, or fora.
In all senses, however, YMMV. To support my assertions I do cite over 25
years of online experience with long periods working with various tools.
{o.o} (And thanks for posting your iptables tips. I need a rount tuit to
to start experimenting with them. I'd have never run across it on
the average forum interface.)
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 03:49 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 08.01.2012 00:47, schrieb Joe Zeff: On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote: workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size doesn't fit all ...and for some of us, fora fit better than email boah that was not the point you are hanging on the single word "login" and do not realize the whole time that this was never the point of the post you answered And where, pray tell, did I mention that word in the post you're responding to? what is your problem? Arrogant, narrow-minded jerks like you. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 15:47, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote:
workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size
doesn't fit all
...and for some of us, fora fit better than email.
Indeed, I for one am not saying mailing lists are the one true way. Nor is the
forum structure.
One must look to the problem being addressed and determine of a forum or a
mailing list might be better. And it may be that a forum structure with an
"off line reader" API might be able to be made better than either a forum
or a mailing list.
This is a fertile field that needs some looking into. After BIX died some
of us looked into this at a place called nlzero. We never did derive a good
solution before I burned out. There were some good ideas presented. We did
get it so that a news reader could be used as well as the text based Telnet
connection interface or offline-reader interfaces that were developed. (We
even had a Java based telnet for people who insisted on using a browser.
We several times overran good sense with our humor. It was thinking out of
the box, though.)
{^_^} (I fondly remember the old CoSy interface used on McGraw-Hill's BIX
from 1985 though 1995 or so. It was a forum sort of system you could
churn through very rapidly.)
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 15:24, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 02:01 PM, jdow wrote:
Seriously, Joe, you miss his point. Forget the login straw man. That is not
the issue. The issue is the clumsy navigation to get to 20 different fora
and then to each new thread you are interested in, which few forums
remember
for you.
As I may have written before, I've never found web fora to be the slightest bit
clumsy, unless whoever set it up went out of their way to make it so. In fact, I
rather enjoy going to a support forum and browsing through the various boards
looking for threads I might find interesting. If you don't like them, don't use
them, but there are enough people using them, IMAO, to prove that they're not
useless for everybody. And, the main reason I made a point out of the login
issue was to show that it wasn't true for most people, eliminating it, I hoped,
from the list of reasons to avoid them.
Some fora are very nice for that once in a while browsing activity. Most are
dreadful, like the Mozilla fora structure. You often can easily find a dozen
people asking the same question and no answers. The Avira forums are support
for the manufacturer and are heavily monitored by people who know what they
are doing. Finding answers there is not a bad experience. Mailing lists are
often murder in that regard. If you want to follow the buzz, as I do for many
mailing lists, the mailing list approach is far better in that it requires
less "page loading delay" than a forum does. Mailing lists also tend to pull
in more peer to peer help than you might find in fora. More people at least
read the questions.
This is why I think a hybrid approach would be good. The mailing list
archives for this group could get organized more as a forum and benefit
greatly, I suspect. It would require a team of moderators to group message
topics in a multiple-hierarchical structure by type of problem and the portion
of the distribution's contents that are affected. (A given bug might fall
under selinux and samba, for example.) Then you could maintain a "never delete"
sort of structure with things like this topic has drifted towards falling into
a water-cooler sort of topic head.
(Just off hand my mind cringes imagining the LKML structured as a forum.)
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 08.01.2012 00:47, schrieb Joe Zeff: > On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote: >> workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size >> doesn't fit all > > ...and for some of us, fora fit better than email boah that was not the point you are hanging on the single word "login" and do not realize the whole time that this was never the point of the post you answered what is your problem? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 03:38 PM, Claude Jones wrote: workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size doesn't fit all ...and for some of us, fora fit better than email. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 05:01 PM, jdow wrote: With email it's all staring me in the face, I can look at the subject, the length of the thread since last visited, the list of posters, and decide if I want to sample the thread. I sample a message and toss the thread or not. It's quick. It's sitting there handy in email with little or no wasted time or effort. Forums, as implemented these days, are a triumph of cute over utility. well put - pretty much my view as well -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 04:29 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: No, it's you who missed the point: if you only use your own computer to check the various fora, complaining about needing to log on every time becomes a straw man. There may be other reasons not to use them, but unless you're using public computers, the need to log on isn't one of them. no Joe, you're not getting my point, which Reindl is commenting on - you still have to go to the fora, whether it's auto-logon or not is NOT the issue using keystroke shortcuts in mail clients, I can navigate through hundreds of messages several times a day, in probably less than minutes, depending on how many I choose to respond to, in data that is local, on my machine - the HTML interfaces of fora introduce lots of headroom requirements, inclusive of having to scroll through page after page, putting up with all sorts of animated gifs, flash, and other such nonsense Also I get these 1000+ messages per day on at least seven different machines, and for my workflow, that's important, so time is everything, having archives of lists I care about locally is also everything, and more, and more - and no, IMAP doesn't work for me, because I'm often in situations where connectivity is broken for one reason or another, and having this stuff locally is important workflows can be highly dedicated, specific, and unique - one size doesn't fit all -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 02:01 PM, jdow wrote: Seriously, Joe, you miss his point. Forget the login straw man. That is not the issue. The issue is the clumsy navigation to get to 20 different fora and then to each new thread you are interested in, which few forums remember for you. As I may have written before, I've never found web fora to be the slightest bit clumsy, unless whoever set it up went out of their way to make it so. In fact, I rather enjoy going to a support forum and browsing through the various boards looking for threads I might find interesting. If you don't like them, don't use them, but there are enough people using them, IMAO, to prove that they're not useless for everybody. And, the main reason I made a point out of the login issue was to show that it wasn't true for most people, eliminating it, I hoped, from the list of reasons to avoid them. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 14:04, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 07.01.2012 22:55, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On a side note, you seem to get very incensed by people not
understanding what you meant.
i get incensed by peopole who are not willing / able to read and understand
Whereas I seldom use incense.
{O,o}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 07.01.2012 22:55, schrieb Joe Zeff: > On 01/07/2012 01:31 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: >> the point was not the single word "login" >> the point was that you have MANUALLY navigate to them instead >> get new messages AUTOMATICALLY - so what exactly did you not >> understand in the text you quoted? > > Which is not what you said; surely because THIS is what i said >> you did not understand the point >> >> * a mailing-list comes to you >> * a forum not >> >> in this context it does not matter if you have to login >> the point is you have to navigate somewhere to get the messages > you made a Great Big Fscking Deal out of the fact that you "need to log in," > which as I pointed out is false for most people. i did NEVER bring any argument to the point "log in" you should learn to remind who said what > Now, if you're so lazy that you can't be arsed to go from one board to > another and look at the titles of the threads, that's another question so why do you not be quiet from the first begin > On a side note, you seem to get very incensed by people not > understanding what you meant. i get incensed by peopole who are not willing / able to read and understand signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 13:29, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/07/2012 01:13 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
you did not understand the point
* a mailing-list comes to you
* a forum not
in this context it does not matter if you have to login
the point is you have to navigate somewhere to get the messages
No, it's you who missed the point: if you only use your own computer to check
the various fora, complaining about needing to log on every time becomes a straw
man. There may be other reasons not to use them, but unless you're using public
computers, the need to log on isn't one of them.
Seriously, Joe, you miss his point. Forget the login straw man. That is not
the issue. The issue is the clumsy navigation to get to 20 different fora
and then to each new thread you are interested in, which few forums remember
for you. Then you have to individually check new threads to see if you find
anything of interest there. The navigation, not login just navigation, often
takes longer than the reading. It takes me less time to navigate (without
considering reading time) through my LKML email folder, with its thousand(s)
messages per day than it takes me to simply navigate through any of the
forums I've ever joined unless I make a direct link to the forum pages I
was last visiting. That in itself is only a clumsy partial solution.
With email it's all staring me in the face, I can look at the subject, the
length of the thread since last visited, the list of posters, and decide if
I want to sample the thread. I sample a message and toss the thread or not.
It's quick. It's sitting there handy in email with little or no wasted time
or effort.
Forums, as implemented these days, are a triumph of cute over utility.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 01:31 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: the point was not the single word "login" the point was that you have MANUALLY navigate to them instead get new messages AUTOMATICALLY - so what exactly did you not understand in the text you quoted? Which is not what you said; you made a Great Big Fscking Deal out of the fact that you "need to log in," which as I pointed out is false for most people. Now, if you're so lazy that you can't be arsed to go from one board to another and look at the titles of the threads, that's another question that I shan't debate with you because it's a matter of personal taste. On a side note, you seem to get very incensed by people not understanding what you meant. In at least half of the cases (not including this one) it looked to me, at least, as though they were responding to what you wrote, if not what you meant. You might want to ask yourself if maybe you're not expressing yourself quite as clearly as you think you are. Please don't take this as an insult, because it's meant as nothing more than a friendly suggestion to help avoid further friction on this list. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 07.01.2012 22:29, schrieb Joe Zeff: > On 01/07/2012 01:13 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: >> you did not understand the point >> >> * a mailing-list comes to you >> * a forum not >> >> in this context it does not matter if you have to login >> the point is you have to navigate somewhere to get the messages > > No, it's you who missed the point: if you only use your own computer to check > the various fora, complaining about > needing to log on every time becomes a straw man. There may be other reasons > not to use them, but unless you're > using public computers, the need to log on isn't one of them jesus christ the point was not the single word "login" the point was that you have MANUALLY navigate to them instead get new messages AUTOMATICALLY - so what exactly did you not understand in the text you quoted? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 01:13 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: you did not understand the point * a mailing-list comes to you * a forum not in this context it does not matter if you have to login the point is you have to navigate somewhere to get the messages No, it's you who missed the point: if you only use your own computer to check the various fora, complaining about needing to log on every time becomes a straw man. There may be other reasons not to use them, but unless you're using public computers, the need to log on isn't one of them. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 07.01.2012 22:10, schrieb Joe Zeff: > On 01/07/2012 12:57 PM, Claude Jones wrote: >> The idea of having to go and log in to ten different forum sites on a >> regular basis is not something I welcome. > > All of the fora I currently use allow you to log in automatically. > Of course, I only use them from my own > computers so there aren't any security issues. you did not understand the point * a mailing-list comes to you * a forum not in this context it does not matter if you have to login the point is you have to navigate somewhere to get the messages having 20 mailing-list is easy, you see new messages, you can take a short view over new ones und you HAVE NOT manually interact to do this signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 12:57 PM, Claude Jones wrote: The idea of having to go and log in to ten different forum sites on a regular basis is not something I welcome. All of the fora I currently use allow you to log in automatically. Of course, I only use them from my own computers so there aren't any security issues. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/07/2012 09:12 AM, Tim wrote: Yes, they have the potential for archiving and search, but having to go to them, instead of messages coming to you, makes them vastly inferior for many people. This is the main point for me. Mail lists come to me - I belong to ten currently, but it's been more. The idea of having to go and log in to ten different forum sites on a regular basis is not something I welcome. I sort of see your point about Newsgroups since you can aggregate them in one window and do the other things you mention. I used to be very active on Newsgroups back in the 90's till mail lists started getting traction - I can't remember what made me conclude that mail lists were better at some point...it seems to me it had something to do with wild, wild west vs. increased civility _g_ -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/07 06:12, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 20:48 +0100, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing
list.
Haven't seen one, yet... ;-p
Yes, they have the potential for archiving and search, but having to go
Generally the search facility is dreadful. I've never seen one that returns
expected results.
to them, instead of messages coming to you, makes them vastly inferior
for many people. I'm certainly not going to log onto half a dozen, or
more, webforums, nightly, to keep track of things that I easily do with
mailing lists.
*Different*, yes. Lots of potential features, yes. Superior, *no*.
One thing of note is that the only good forums I've been on have active
moderation by people who are not on power trips. Good forums also have
good threading, in with two different threading priorities (follow strand
to the end or follow strands by time of posting).
The best "forum-like" tool I've ever used so far is deceased now. It was
easy to setup what you want to follow and navigate its text only interface
with simple return key presses until you were done with all unread messages.
This also made it handy for downloading to your own machine all the current
unread messages and reading them locally any old way you want, much the same
as mailing lists. In fact the tool had a built in functions to facilitate
off-line readers. HTML based tools are all somewhat clumsy by comparison.
And mailing lists are also a tough clumsy in different ways, as well.
Nothing's perfect. I will note that I drift away, usually in a state of
acute frustration, from forums, such as Mozilla uses, and return to email
and mailing lists as a preference. But, then, I am very "data oriented"
and despise "cute" triumphing over "utility." So forum gewgaws such as
avatar images, fancy formatting, and all that nonsense tend to drive me
away. They waste my time too much.
And, of course, "YMMV". It would be interesting to adapt a good forum
based tool so that it also could be accessed as a mailing list.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 20:48 +0100, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: > Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing > list. Haven't seen one, yet... ;-p Yes, they have the potential for archiving and search, but having to go to them, instead of messages coming to you, makes them vastly inferior for many people. I'm certainly not going to log onto half a dozen, or more, webforums, nightly, to keep track of things that I easily do with mailing lists. *Different*, yes. Lots of potential features, yes. Superior, *no*. I'd argue, out of the lot of mailing lists, newsgroups, and webforums, that newsgroups are the superior. They are an archive. You can search them, for old and current messages. Getting a list of messages, without having to get the message bodies, is fast. You can keep/cache what you want. You can purge. You have all sorts of filtering options. You don't have to expose an email address. They do threading properly. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Tim wrote: >> >> Tim: >> >> I participate in no web forums, because they're such a pain. And I've >> >> yet to see a single one to convince me otherwise. >> >> (insert word "able" between "one" and "to") >> >> Joe Zeff: >> > And as long as you never look, you never will. >> >> I said "participate." Of course I've *seen* forums, that's how I *know* >> they're a pain. > > Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing > list. I would potentially agree that forums could be done right. I haven't seen many. Actually, google does a fairly nice job with theirs, but they miss a few points. Blogged about it recently (look me up if you're interested in what some random maniac said), but I think I didn't really get my blog right, either. We need to set up a new newsgroup protocol that combines both, and adds the option of allowing registered users to post through a newsgroup-only address. Then the users don't have to expose their private addresses. And the archive web pages, which should be part of the protocol, should provide thread headers, so that you can keep the threads intact. which means that your reader/MUA needs to be able to add those headers. Google gets close with their webmail, but not quite, really. Gmane also almost gets there, but they don't have enough horse power to cover all the newsgroups they cover. (Haven't figured out how to add headers with sylpheed, yet, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.) (Hmm. The more we add to this thread, the higher Linda's post thread gets ranked in searches, but the less damage to the innocent bystander -- statistically -- it does. I was going to suggest breaking/stopping the thread, but burying it seems like a good option, too.) -- Joel Rees -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/6/2012 4:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: Pointing out that he was expressing his opinion as though it were a proven fact was OK; we all do it on occasion, and deserve to be called on it. Doing it in a way that was almost certain to offend him was going too far, especially when you're claiming to be trying to avoid a flame war. yes, I see your point - taken... -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/06/2012 01:06 PM, Claude Jones wrote: read his words, Joe - he didn't express the matter as an opinion, but as a proclamation; the phrasing is precisely the kind of sophomoric posturing that leads to endless disputes ...and that you found offensive, even when there was no sign that he intended offense. If you wanted to avoid "endless disputes," all you had to do was shrug, delete the message and forget about it. Instead, you did everything you could to start a flame war while complaining about how bad they are. There's a word for people who do that; in fact, there are several, but I'm not going to use any of them because I'm not interested in fanning the flames. (Besides, I've no idea which would be the most appropriate.) Pointing out that he was expressing his opinion as though it were a proven fact was OK; we all do it on occasion, and deserve to be called on it. Doing it in a way that was almost certain to offend him was going too far, especially when you're claiming to be trying to avoid a flame war. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/6/2012 3:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: just because he has the temerity to express an opinion other than yours read his words, Joe - he didn't express the matter as an opinion, but as a proclamation; the phrasing is precisely the kind of sophomoric posturing that leads to endless disputes - as I said, he was perfectly entitled to his view, that's not my argument - the tone of this list is infecting me, now - I withdraw from the thread -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/06/2012 12:26 PM, Claude Jones wrote: On 1/6/2012 2:48 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing list. silly flamer, next time I want your opinion, I'll give you one - what on earth is the point of such a post? you're welcome to that view, but, not to impose it (by implication) on others Then why are you trying to do exactly that? Calling another member of this list a "silly flamer" just because he has the temerity to express an opinion other than yours is wrong. Just accept the fact that not everybody sees things the way you do, stop flaming everybody who says anything you don't agree with and get on with your life. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/6/2012 2:48 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing list. silly flamer, next time I want your opinion, I'll give you one - what on earth is the point of such a post? you're welcome to that view, but, not to impose it (by implication) on others - if you're trying to start an argument, I won't oblige - my last word on this -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Tim wrote: > Tim: > >> I participate in no web forums, because they're such a pain. And I've > >> yet to see a single one to convince me otherwise. > > (insert word "able" between "one" and "to") > > Joe Zeff: > > And as long as you never look, you never will. > > I said "participate." Of course I've *seen* forums, that's how I *know* > they're a pain. > > -- > [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r > 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 > > Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I > read messages from the public lists. > > > > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org > Forums, when implemented properly, are superior to any kind of mailing list. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Tim: >> I participate in no web forums, because they're such a pain. And I've >> yet to see a single one to convince me otherwise. (insert word "able" between "one" and "to") Joe Zeff: > And as long as you never look, you never will. I said "participate." Of course I've *seen* forums, that's how I *know* they're a pain. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/05/2012 03:57 AM, Tim wrote: I participate in no web forums, because they're such a pain. And I've yet to see a single one to convince me otherwise. And as long as you never look, you never will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 09:16 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 04.01.2012 22:10, schrieb g: >> On 01/04/2012 07:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: >> <> >> >>> Not yet, but can't wait to say, apply for a job, or a loan, and have >>> someone google me and this shows up. >> -=- >> >> i did, just for more laughs, look at links Linda post and i did note that >> search params where not full and correct. >> >> if that is among your worries, how it is that you are still working? > > the point is that Linda needs a psychotherapeuth and not a mailing-list > after looking at many of her confused posts - she is not willing > or able to realize that this permanently FUD is unwanted -=- i believe the word you are looking/intending for is psychothérapeute. actually, he/she/it does not need one. this list is giving she/he/it all the therapy it/she/he needs. a psychiatrist will tell you that one of the intents of a person with a non sane mind is to bring others to their own state. which by some of the post, i would say that she/it/he is nearing that point. 8-D -- peace out. tc.hago, g . *please reply "plain text" only. "html text" are deleted* in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** The installation instructions stated to install Windows 2000 or better. So I installed Linux. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 21:54 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Maybe it is my ignorance, but I find it much more time-consuming > to navigate through a forum than to skim through a newsgroup/mailing > list. No, I agree with your sentiment. Forums are rarely well-organised, just a hoshposh of postings. And it gets worse the more messages in a thread, and the more forums you get involved in. With email, they all come to you, and you can filter and organise them as you see fit. I think I've been doing this for over 15 years, by now, and I can participate in mailing lists, or news groups, with ease. But using web forums involves logging in left, right, and centre, and always having to *search* for things. You have to wade through page after page to do anything, and owners keep on re-organising things. And you have plenty of slow-as-molasses forums, because of what they run on, or they allow users to put scripting or animated avatars next to their post, which bogs your browser down. Yep, 3 GHz computer brought to its knees by badly constructed webpages, never mind users injecting malicious stuff. I participate in no web forums, because they're such a pain. And I've yet to see a single one to convince me otherwise. -- NB: All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying to privately email me without making prior arrangements. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am Mittwoch, den 04.01.2012, 22:16 +0100 schrieb Reindl Harald: > > Am 04.01.2012 22:10, schrieb g: > > > > On 01/04/2012 07:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: > > <> > > > >> Not yet, but can't wait to say, apply for a job, or a loan, and have > >> someone google me and this shows up. > > -=- > > > > i did, just for more laughs, look at links Linda post and i did note that > > search params where not full and correct. > > > > if that is among your worries, how it is that you are still working? > > the point is that Linda needs a psychotherapeuth and not a mailing-list > after looking at many of her confused posts - she is not willing > or able to realize that this permanently FUD is unwanted > Former fedora user here. Out of nostalgia and some lazyness that list still goes to my inbox. So... I think that this Linda character is just doing some PR for that webmail-thingie in her signature. nothing more nothing less... -- To write good code is a worthy challenge, and a source of civilized delight. -- stolen and paraphrased from William Safire -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/4/2012 12:29 PM, Patrick Lists wrote: I am against restoring "Linda". Regards, Patrick +1 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Alan Cox writes: The forums on the other hand seem to be booming - which is good, and perhaps as much a demographic and technological shift as anything else ? I think that's true. Personally, I prefer email, but I have to admit that email, as a communication platform, is losing mindshare. pgpRRMbnnzFnl.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/04 13:29, JB wrote:
Patrick Lists puzzled.xs4all.nl> writes:
On 04-01-12 20:08, JB wrote:
I think this list should not be moderated at all because as I already said it
can be easily manipulated into killing it.
IMO that Linda person is killing this list and with the baseless
personal attack on Neal this Linda person has shown to be a threat to
the reputation of others on this list. Google does not forget so Neal
definitely has a point.
I'm in favor of moderation.
I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation.
I am against restoring "Linda".
Regards,
Patrick
Patrick,
I do share your disdain for and Neal's concern about "Linda"'s Google searches,
etc.
But let's be clear about the effectiveness of "Linda"'s actions. By now, any
body searching Internet for clues about a person proves to be a lunatic and not
qualified in any way to make a judgement regarding that person of interest.
After so many years of Internet and Information Revolution most people know
that there is a lot of garbage out there.
That is not to say that ""Linda"'s actions should be ignored.
But we should not throw out the baby with the water. First you throw out
a trouuble maker, later your "opponent", and after a w hile you are the only
one left on the list.
We can survive "Linda" on this list.
"Linda",
please stop harassing somebody whose identity you do not even know.
You cross a line.
JB, for over a decade, 1985 til BIX died, I ran the Amiga "forums" or as
we called them the Amiga Exchange conferences. If one wanted to be a
moderator I learned that one must first learn to swallow just a whole lot
of abuse. (And it is quite rewarding when the abuser finally hangs himself
with his own abuse and slinks away.) I also learned that to keep the
conferences "alive" I had to maintain the active threat of banning a person
from the conferences. I had the power. I seldom used it. Used too much and
it stifles the discussions just as much or more than drivel. Given its
"forum-like" nature I also had the ability to move drivel to a drivel topic
that others could avoid or browse as they saw fit. You can't do that with a
mailing list. But you can ban somebody who chronically creates noise. Any
person with that power must exercise it with extreme caution, and not
necessarily work in a windsock manner as people scream "get rid of this
troll!"
One thing I prohibited, with the extreme sanction as one of its punishments,
was direct personal attacks at the level of Linda's attack on Neal. I used it
maybe three or four times in 10 years.
For a list like this the administrators must keep an eye on complaints
about what the list moderator(s) might do. I'd recommend operating like
the BIX Amiga Exchange. The moderators must ask the list administrator to
perform any banning that might take place. The list administrator who is
about to lock a person off should read back over that person's history. The
moderator should provide a list of URLs for examples. In this particular
case Linda's action on the message which started this thread is sufficient
to lock her off. She fairly obviously did not search properly for the evidence
she used to target an apparently innocent person. That is not a forgivable
offense as she acted. Let her sit it out in moderated status for some time
the moderator and administrator agree upon before she is allowed to post to
this list like the rest of us. When she learns to act like an adult she can
be allowed to participate like an adult, not before.
And, again, I stress that any action of this sort must be undertaken with
extreme caution. The moderators must identify themselves in their signature
blocks as moderators. And they must be prepared to swallow a fair amount of
abuse targeting themselves before they ban a person for attacking any of the
moderators. Under these sorts of conditions it can work quite well.
It also can burn out moderators fairly quickly. I was lucky in that I was
given a budget to pay them. It was not much. But it helped take away some
of the sting from the slings and arrows.
As a side suggestion, I discovered people over maybe 30 or 35 survived better
as moderators than younger people. The added maturity seems to help.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 23:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > On 01/04/2012 09:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > about this user, who's now being moderated. > > Bummer. > > I never paid any attention to what Linda had to say. It was *way* more > fun reading reactions to her posts. :-) agreed... seems that some people just got unhinged at her meanderings and thus one post generates hostility from 4 to 6 people which degenerates into a thread that goes on endlessly. Why can't self-realized adults just figure out that you don't feed trolls and not responding means that the useless posting just dies quickly? I find the users who resort to hostile and abusive responses to be far more intolerable. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 21:29 +0100, Patrick Lists wrote: > On 04-01-12 20:08, JB wrote: > > I think this list should not be moderated at all because as I already said > > it > > can be easily manipulated into killing it. > > IMO that Linda person is killing this list and with the baseless > personal attack on Neal this Linda person has shown to be a threat to > the reputation of others on this list. Google does not forget so Neal > definitely has a point. > > I'm in favor of moderation. > > > I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation. > > I am against restoring "Linda". Is this really about Linda or about moderation? If it's about Linda, it's awful simple to filter her out. If it's about moderation, this list has endured for many, many years without moderation and has it's moments to be sure but I tend to think that outright moderation would have a negative impact. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Alan Cox wrote: > The forums on the other hand seem to be booming - which is good, and > perhaps as much a demographic and technological shift as anything else ? Dear Alan, I usually follow your advice, and when I read your earlier praise of the fedoraforum, I took a look there. (I take it you were referring to www.fedoraforum.org .) I am actually a long-time member of this forum, though I hadn't looked at it for some time. I did today, going through some 30-40 pages of postings. I was surprised how little I found of any interest; in fact the only item I noted was a suggestion how to use dolphin to unpack a multipart rar file. (I haven't tried it yet.) Generally speaking, I find forums far less attractive than mailing lists or newsgroups, where it is much easier (in my experience) to skim through 100 postings, and pick out the 3 or 4 of interest. I do agree that forums (fora?) seem to be booming, while mailing lists appear to be regarded as pass\'e. I recently asked my ISP (eircom.net) why they no longer served newsgroups, but I could not find anyone there who even knew what a newsgroup was. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Alan Cox wrote: | >> > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is | >> > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need | >> > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. Shrug - not useless to me. I find delete-thread very effective, leaving the relevant stuff visible. On 04Jan2012 21:54, Timothy Murphy wrote: | Maybe it is my ignorance, but I find it much more time-consuming | to navigate through a forum than to skim through a newsgroup/mailing list. Me too. A list comes to me, where I can use my preferred tools to read it. A forum I have to visit and forage in, and I have NEVER found one easy to use or browse. An utter waste of time. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ Dragging epistemology-vs-metaphysics into QM is like trying to figure out where St. Paul stands on plate tectonics. - Tom Neff -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
JB wrote: > That is not to say that ""Linda"'s actions should be ignored. > But we should not throw out the baby with the water. First you throw out > a trouuble maker, later your "opponent", and after a w hile you are the > only one left on the list. > We can survive "Linda" on this list. I don't agree. I can certainly put up with Linda's posts, which I do not normally read. But I think that when someone posts personal remarks that might damage someone else's reputation it is appropriate to bar the poster from a mailing list or newsgroup, if feasible. Incidentally, I don't think the nonsense-to-sense ratio on this list is inordinately high. I read the sci.math list, which is at least 90% gibberish. I'd put the ratio here at under 10%. (I don't include OT postings, like this one; they are largely a matter of opinion.) -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 01:53 PM, Alan Cox wrote: The forums on the other hand seem to be booming - which is good, and perhaps as much a demographic and technological shift as anything else ? I've been on the fedora forum since October, 2007, long before I discovered this list. I find them both useful in different ways. The forum is much easier to search and there's a lot of useful info there, but if you need a rapid response, the list is often better. And, of course, there's a lot of people there who aren't on the list. That's why I occasionally point people at the forum to see if somebody there can help them with something that we don't know how to fix. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Linda, I share your concern for the internet. But you need to learn how to use a search engine properly before you start finding shadows in the mailing list here. Basically, you got upset over one Neal Becker and shot (metaphorically) another. Admitted, the shot was (metaphorically) a paint bullet, but now he has paint all over one of his best shirts, so to speak. And you completely missed the Neal Becker at which you got upset. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Linda McLeod wrote: > [a bunch of stuff that does not need repeating] -- Joel Rees -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:56:24 -0430 "Patrick O'Callaghan" wrote: > On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 13:23 +, Alan Cox wrote: > > > No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have > > > information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. > > > > Plot graphs of active contributors to this list and their active time > > on > > the list before leaving, compare with the power curve you got from > > doing > > it with old data. It speaks volumes. > > > Well for one thing not all the membership actually posts, and for > another people may post for a while and then not. Unless you have access > to the list membership database, I'd say the data was too noisy for such > a firm conclusion. List membership databases are not generally useful - a lot of list memberships are actually dead, spamtrapped or just unread and ignored. Now it could be the list is full of people but everyone has stopped posting. Somehow I doubt that. The forums on the other hand seem to be booming - which is good, and perhaps as much a demographic and technological shift as anything else ? Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 04-01-12 22:10, g wrote: besides, do you really think that what shows up with simple a google search is going to be all that is run? A company that does background checks told me that cutting corners is exactly what happens in their industry. A quick Google? Check. Searched Facebook? Check. Twitter? Check. Create fancy looking report with leet profiling speak and a breakdown of keywords? Check. Mail fancy report with invoice to client? Check & Profit. So the answer to your question depends on which company has been hired to do the background check but definitely can be yes. And as such it could very well have a negative impact on Neal in the Big Blue Room. think about it. Guess you should too. Regards, Patrick -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Patrick Lists puzzled.xs4all.nl> writes: > > On 04-01-12 20:08, JB wrote: > > I think this list should not be moderated at all because as I already said > > it > > can be easily manipulated into killing it. > > IMO that Linda person is killing this list and with the baseless > personal attack on Neal this Linda person has shown to be a threat to > the reputation of others on this list. Google does not forget so Neal > definitely has a point. > > I'm in favor of moderation. > > > I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation. > > I am against restoring "Linda". > > Regards, > Patrick Patrick, I do share your disdain for and Neal's concern about "Linda"'s Google searches, etc. But let's be clear about the effectiveness of "Linda"'s actions. By now, any body searching Internet for clues about a person proves to be a lunatic and not qualified in any way to make a judgement regarding that person of interest. After so many years of Internet and Information Revolution most people know that there is a lot of garbage out there. That is not to say that ""Linda"'s actions should be ignored. But we should not throw out the baby with the water. First you throw out a trouuble maker, later your "opponent", and after a w hile you are the only one left on the list. We can survive "Linda" on this list. "Linda", please stop harassing somebody whose identity you do not even know. You cross a line. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 13:23 +, Alan Cox wrote: > > No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have > > information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. > > Plot graphs of active contributors to this list and their active time > on > the list before leaving, compare with the power curve you got from > doing > it with old data. It speaks volumes. > Well for one thing not all the membership actually posts, and for another people may post for a while and then not. Unless you have access to the list membership database, I'd say the data was too noisy for such a firm conclusion. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Am 04.01.2012 22:10, schrieb g: > > On 01/04/2012 07:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: > <> > >> Not yet, but can't wait to say, apply for a job, or a loan, and have >> someone google me and this shows up. > -=- > > i did, just for more laughs, look at links Linda post and i did note that > search params where not full and correct. > > if that is among your worries, how it is that you are still working? the point is that Linda needs a psychotherapeuth and not a mailing-list after looking at many of her confused posts - she is not willing or able to realize that this permanently FUD is unwanted signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 07:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: <> > Not yet, but can't wait to say, apply for a job, or a loan, and have > someone google me and this shows up. -=- i did, just for more laughs, look at links Linda post and i did note that search params where not full and correct. if that is among your worries, how it is that you are still working? if not working, why is it you could not mention such on an application that there are some unsavories with similar name and be done with it. besides, do you not think that banks and employers are not already aware and when background checks are run, such checks are run by people who are already aware of such similarities? such paranoia does nothing except give further jollies to Linda's enjoyment. besides, do you really think that what shows up with simple a google search is going to be all that is run? think about it. -- peace out. tc.hago, g . *please reply "plain text" only. "html text" are deleted* in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** The installation instructions stated to install Windows 2000 or better. So I installed Linux. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Alan Cox wrote: >> > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is >> > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need >> > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. >> >> No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have >> information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. > > Plot graphs of active contributors to this list and their active time on > the list before leaving, compare with the power curve you got from doing > it with old data. It speaks volumes. > > For comparison do the same with the Fedora forums, although there you'll > really need to do a bit of statistical sampling as I don't know a polite > and reasonable way to pull the needed data and crunch it locally. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I find it much more time-consuming to navigate through a forum than to skim through a newsgroup/mailing list. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 04-01-12 20:08, JB wrote: I think this list should not be moderated at all because as I already said it can be easily manipulated into killing it. IMO that Linda person is killing this list and with the baseless personal attack on Neal this Linda person has shown to be a threat to the reputation of others on this list. Google does not forget so Neal definitely has a point. I'm in favor of moderation. I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation. I am against restoring "Linda". Regards, Patrick -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/04 12:05, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
On 1/4/2012 11:08 AM, JB wrote:
I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation.
JB
a big "-1" (as in "no") --- this is one of the few times I would consider
blinking html (smile)
Until she grows up and performs her "research" better I'd leave her off
the list. She's a disaster waiting to happen, again.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/4/2012 11:08 AM, JB wrote: I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation. JB a big "-1" (as in "no") --- this is one of the few times I would consider blinking html (smile) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
g wrote: > > On 01/04/2012 03:22 PM, Neal Becker wrote: > <> > >> You know, I would have taken the same view if it wasn't that this had been >> directed personally at me. Funny how that changes things. I wouldn't be >> very happy if I just blocked it from my own client but still found this >> crap broadcast all over. > -=- > > understandable. > > but do consider if you had filters set up, you would never have known. > what you do not know can not hurt you. 8-D > > what's more, consider source. especially if you have bashed him/her/it. > > it is really relevant to one simple question; > > are you black and blue, or, cut up and bleeding? > > Not yet, but can't wait to say, apply for a job, or a loan, and have someone google me and this shows up. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Mikkel L. Ellertson gmail.com> writes: > ... > You missed the point. Weather moderating this list is a desirable > option or not does not affect how well he does as a moderator. Your > comment did not address the question of weather this list needs to > be moderated, it only addressed his qualifications, and the > relevance to this list. > ... I think this list should not be moderated at all because as I already said it can be easily manipulated into killing it. It is like 19 Arabs and a camel (think of it as "Linda") used as a pretext for mass genitals screening and pad-downs :-) I am for restoring "Linda" to her full list membership, w/o moderation. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/04/2012 11:27 AM, JB wrote: > Mikkel L. Ellertson gmail.com> writes: > >> ... >> JB, >> It indicates that he can do a good job of moderating a list. Think >> of it as a job reference. >> >> Mikkel >> - -- > > Mikkel, > you are very easy here to "set up" (because that's what it is) when you want to > drive away one mostly incomprehensible poster "Linda" and to compensate for it > with a "moderator" of GNOME fame (who posted here a couple of times, after which > I thought he was on drugs or not entirely alert, which makes him qualified ...). > Have you lost your mind here ? > JB > > You missed the point. Weather moderating this list is a desirable option or not does not affect how well he does as a moderator. Your comment did not address the question of weather this list needs to be moderated, it only addressed his qualifications, and the relevance to this list. Now, as far as hiving lost my mind, no I have not. I have it backed up around here somewhere. :-) Mikkel - -- I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8En8MACgkQqbQrVW3JyMQUGQCfZoNKghYrFk8mXKMTleIdiH09 K8QAnicN3d47XzHyoxLdpU2DBslPQXT/ =tgka -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Joe Zeff zeff.us> writes: > ... > Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to my friend Mr. Kettle? Well, welcome to the club. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 08:39 AM, JB wrote: By making himself "available" to this list with the justification as he did it, he showed that he is a complete buffoon ! I say to him once again - get lost ! Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to my friend Mr. Kettle? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 05:27:08PM +, JB wrote: > Mikkel L. Ellertson gmail.com> writes: > > > ... > > JB, > > It indicates that he can do a good job of moderating a list. Think > > of it as a job reference. > > > > Mikkel > > - -- > > Mikkel, > you are very easy here to "set up" (because that's what it is) when you want > to > drive away one mostly incomprehensible poster "Linda" and to compensate for it > with a "moderator" of GNOME fame (who posted here a couple of times, after > which > I thought he was on drugs or not entirely alert, which makes him qualified > ...). > Have you lost your mind here ? > JB Can we please focus on technical user help rather than attacking other list members? Thanks in advance. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Mikkel L. Ellertson gmail.com> writes: > ... > JB, > It indicates that he can do a good job of moderating a list. Think > of it as a job reference. > > Mikkel > - -- Mikkel, you are very easy here to "set up" (because that's what it is) when you want to drive away one mostly incomprehensible poster "Linda" and to compensate for it with a "moderator" of GNOME fame (who posted here a couple of times, after which I thought he was on drugs or not entirely alert, which makes him qualified ...). Have you lost your mind here ? JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 2012/01/04 09:16, Claude Jones wrote:
On 1/4/2012 10:50 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
I never paid any attention to what Linda had to say. It was*way* more
fun reading reactions to her
You sure that was a she? Got a spam message two days ago from a charles mcleod -
just saying...
I did find all the indignant chest beating pretty funny, too.
Also got a lng (8882 words!) private message from 'Linda' attempting to
explain herself - about as strange as the posts. It got sent to spam by my spam
filter but I just chanced upon it while searching the spam folder in my mail
client
She is unable to figure out that the Neal Becker on this list is apparently
Neal D. Becker. Searching for that shows her hysteria is utterly ridiculous
as it appears everybody here had already figured out. Just because our Neal
Becker shares a name with an unsavory police officer (or two?) doesn't show
he's a bad person, too. (I suspect our Neal Becker is a great deal younger,
too.) Linda is apparently a very unstable character who needs to learn more
than a little bit of caution before she spouts off.
{^_^}
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 1/4/2012 10:50 AM, Ed Greshko wrote: I never paid any attention to what Linda had to say. It was*way* more fun reading reactions to her You sure that was a she? Got a spam message two days ago from a charles mcleod - just saying... I did find all the indignant chest beating pretty funny, too. Also got a lng (8882 words!) private message from 'Linda' attempting to explain herself - about as strange as the posts. It got sent to spam by my spam filter but I just chanced upon it while searching the spam folder in my mail client -- Claude Jones Brunswick, MD, USA -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/04/2012 10:39 AM, JB wrote: > Alan Cox lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes: > >> >>> This is not a list to be "moderated" by half-witts of your caliber. >>> Get lost. >> >> A fine demonstration of why the list needs moderating. >> >> Actually Olav does a rather good job on the Gnome lists I've seen. I'm not >> sure I agree with all his choices but he does manage to stop them turning >> into junk despite them being full of umm 'characters'. >> >> Alan > > Alan, > how is his GNOME "achievement" related to this list ? > > By making himself "available" to this list with the justification as he did it, > he showed that he is a complete buffoon ! > I say to him once again - get lost ! > > JB > > JB, It indicates that he can do a good job of moderating a list. Think of it as a job reference. Mikkel - -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8Eh6kACgkQqbQrVW3JyMRamgCfeuhF1pk1Kb7gf/fkbm62kIY5 9mkAnj+fG9hKJd8FMF8N6AyqVtfr7QTb =C1hH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:39 AM, JB wrote: > Alan Cox lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes: > > > > > > This is not a list to be "moderated" by half-witts of your caliber. > > > Get lost. > > > > A fine demonstration of why the list needs moderating. > > > > Actually Olav does a rather good job on the Gnome lists I've seen. I'm > not > > sure I agree with all his choices but he does manage to stop them turning > > into junk despite them being full of umm 'characters'. > > > > Alan > > Alan, > how is his GNOME "achievement" related to this list ? > > By making himself "available" to this list with the justification as he > did it, > he showed that he is a complete buffoon ! > I say to him once again - get lost ! > > tough crowd! > JB > > > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org > -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Alan Cox lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes: > > > This is not a list to be "moderated" by half-witts of your caliber. > > Get lost. > > A fine demonstration of why the list needs moderating. > > Actually Olav does a rather good job on the Gnome lists I've seen. I'm not > sure I agree with all his choices but he does manage to stop them turning > into junk despite them being full of umm 'characters'. > > Alan Alan, how is his GNOME "achievement" related to this list ? By making himself "available" to this list with the justification as he did it, he showed that he is a complete buffoon ! I say to him once again - get lost ! JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
> This is not a list to be "moderated" by half-witts of your caliber. > Get lost. A fine demonstration of why the list needs moderating. Actually Olav does a rather good job on the Gnome lists I've seen. I'm not sure I agree with all his choices but he does manage to stop them turning into junk despite them being full of umm 'characters'. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Olav Vitters vitters.nl> writes: > ... > For anyone reading along: At the Desktop Summit at least 10 people > thanked me personally for the moderation I do on the GNOME mailing > lists. Also get a thanks in the presentation of the GNOME foundation > meeting (during GUADEC & Desktop Summit). > Who gives a penny about that here, may I ask ? This is a Fedora users list. > > As a matter of fact, you should distance yourself from GNOME after all that > > DE garbage they delivered to Fedora users, all over the world. > > I do not see the link between this and "with all due respect". > I do not think you are up to the task if you are confused about the above ... This is not a list to be "moderated" by half-witts of your caliber. Get lost. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 03:38:15PM +, JB wrote:
> Olav Vitters vitters.nl> writes:
> > On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 11:27:11AM +, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is
> > > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need
> > > to take it up with the fedora board I believe.
> >
> > FWIW, I'm willing to moderate (after effect, doesn't have to be done
> > before the post arrives to the mailing list). I do so already for GNOME.
> >
> > Anyone know whom in Fedora decides this / hands out / approves listadmin
> > permissions? In GNOME I just do because I am able (sysadmin).
>
> Olav,
> with all due respect ...
Sure about that? :P
> Because you are GNOME list moderator, does not qualify you to be one for this
> list.
It seems you missed the "FWIW, I'm willing" in above quote?
For anyone reading along: At the Desktop Summit at least 10 people
thanked me personally for the moderation I do on the GNOME mailing
lists. Also get a thanks in the presentation of the GNOME foundation
meeting (during GUADEC & Desktop Summit).
> As a matter of fact, you should distance yourself from GNOME after all that
> DE garbage they delivered to Fedora users, all over the world.
I do not see the link between this and "with all due respect".
> So, thank you, but NO thank you !
I see your email more as encouragement than anything
else[1]
Anyway, if anyone could just reply to my question ("who decides").. more
constructive.
--
Regards,
Olav
[1] For other lurkers: Banned JD on some GNOME mailing list.
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Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Dennis Kaptain wrote: > >> > >> Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > >> signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > >> my time. > > > >Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > >basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > >to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > > > >Alan > >-- > > > > > Alan, > > > Things are not as bleak as you seem to think. I am a regular reader and > occasional contributor to this list and have been for years. True, from > time to time we attract some world class trolls. But I have learned more > about Linux, Fedora, and computers in general from this list than any other > single source. I've seen people ask questions, some very technical ones, on > a very wide variety of Linux/Fedora topics and get good answers within > minutes. > > > This list is far from useless. It's a fantastic resource and I want to > thank everyone here for all the help they have given me either directly to > my questions or indirectly through helping someone else. > > > Dennis > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org > I agree with Dennis. I keep a file of useful threads that I expect to need someday. Just reading through many of the discussions has been useful. Thanks to everyone who patiently documents the steps to solve some of these issues. I also found some of this user's posts to be interesting, but obviously she does not stay on subject well. I will continue to read posts on this list, and hopefully contribute something useful at some point. Christina -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 09:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > about this user, who's now being moderated. Bummer. I never paid any attention to what Linda had to say. It was *way* more fun reading reactions to her posts. :-) -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -- Douglas Adams in "Mostly Harmless -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 03:22 PM, Neal Becker wrote: <> > You know, I would have taken the same view if it wasn't that this had been > directed personally at me. Funny how that changes things. I wouldn't be > very happy if I just blocked it from my own client but still found this > crap broadcast all over. -=- understandable. but do consider if you had filters set up, you would never have known. what you do not know can not hurt you. 8-D what's more, consider source. especially if you have bashed him/her/it. it is really relevant to one simple question; are you black and blue, or, cut up and bleeding? -- peace out. tc.hago, g . *please reply "plain text" only. "html text" are deleted* in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** The installation instructions stated to install Windows 2000 or better. So I installed Linux. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
>> >> Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The >> signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting >> my time. > >Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is >basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need >to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > >Alan >-- > Alan, Things are not as bleak as you seem to think. I am a regular reader and occasional contributor to this list and have been for years. True, from time to time we attract some world class trolls. But I have learned more about Linux, Fedora, and computers in general from this list than any other single source. I've seen people ask questions, some very technical ones, on a very wide variety of Linux/Fedora topics and get good answers within minutes. This list is far from useless. It's a fantastic resource and I want to thank everyone here for all the help they have given me either directly to my questions or indirectly through helping someone else. Dennis -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Olav Vitters vitters.nl> writes: > > On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 11:27:11AM +, Alan Cox wrote: > > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > > FWIW, I'm willing to moderate (after effect, doesn't have to be done > before the post arrives to the mailing list). I do so already for GNOME. > > Anyone know whom in Fedora decides this / hands out / approves listadmin > permissions? In GNOME I just do because I am able (sysadmin). > Olav, with all due respect ... Because you are GNOME list moderator, does not qualify you to be one for this list. As a matter of fact, you should distance yourself from GNOME after all that DE garbage they delivered to Fedora users, all over the world. So, thank you, but NO thank you ! JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
g wrote: > > On 01/04/2012 10:51 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: >>> users mailing list >>> users@lists.fedoraproject.org >> >> Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The >> signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting >> my time. > -=- > > Richard, > > if poster squashes your melons so much, why do you not set up 'troll' > filter? filter on 'From:' and 'Body:' for troll's name. then all you > would have to contend with is repliers who do not leave op's name in > body and you have to add 'Subject:' to filter. > > if you used an offline email client, it would be even easier as you > could thread and mark troll's emails as read and give them a special > tag color and you would know to leave that thread alone. > > granted moderating would be nice, but such does require someone > having to spend time doing what you could do for yourself. > > personally, i find a some of Linda's post to be amusing and i enjoy > a little 'sidetrack' from time to time. granted she/he/it does go a > little overboard sometimes, bwtf, that is all a part of it. > You know, I would have taken the same view if it wasn't that this had been directed personally at me. Funny how that changes things. I wouldn't be very happy if I just blocked it from my own client but still found this crap broadcast all over. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 01/04/2012 10:51 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: >> users mailing list >> users@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > my time. -=- Richard, if poster squashes your melons so much, why do you not set up 'troll' filter? filter on 'From:' and 'Body:' for troll's name. then all you would have to contend with is repliers who do not leave op's name in body and you have to add 'Subject:' to filter. if you used an offline email client, it would be even easier as you could thread and mark troll's emails as read and give them a special tag color and you would know to leave that thread alone. granted moderating would be nice, but such does require someone having to spend time doing what you could do for yourself. personally, i find a some of Linda's post to be amusing and i enjoy a little 'sidetrack' from time to time. granted she/he/it does go a little overboard sometimes, bwtf, that is all a part of it. -- peace out. tc.hago, g . *please reply "plain text" only. "html text" are deleted* in a free world without fences, who needs gates. ** help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today. ** to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it. to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it. ** The installation instructions stated to install Windows 2000 or better. So I installed Linux. ** learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ 'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html 'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:55:28 -0430 "Patrick O'Callaghan" wrote: > On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 11:27 +, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:51:05 + > > Richard Hughes wrote: > > > > > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > > > > users mailing list > > > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > > > > > > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > > > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > > > my time. > > > > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > > No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have > information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. Plot graphs of active contributors to this list and their active time on the list before leaving, compare with the power curve you got from doing it with old data. It speaks volumes. For comparison do the same with the Fedora forums, although there you'll really need to do a bit of statistical sampling as I don't know a polite and reasonable way to pull the needed data and crunch it locally. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 07:37:30AM -0500, Neal Becker wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 11:27 +, Alan Cox wrote: > >> On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:51:05 + > >> Richard Hughes wrote: > >> > >> > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > >> > > users mailing list > >> > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > >> > > >> > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > >> > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > >> > my time. > >> > >> Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > >> basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > >> to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > > > > No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have > > information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. > > > > poc > > > > Yeah, well, how do you think I feel having found this first thing this > morning? Sorry for the noise. As I reported in another message, an erroneous filter kept me from seeing an earlier complaint to the list owners about this user, who's now being moderated. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, Jan 04, 2012 at 11:27:11AM +, Alan Cox wrote: > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. FWIW, I'm willing to moderate (after effect, doesn't have to be done before the post arrives to the mailing list). I do so already for GNOME. Anyone know whom in Fedora decides this / hands out / approves listadmin permissions? In GNOME I just do because I am able (sysadmin). -- Regards, Olav -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 11:27 +, Alan Cox wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:51:05 + >> Richard Hughes wrote: >> >> > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: >> > > users mailing list >> > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org >> > >> > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The >> > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting >> > my time. >> >> Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is >> basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need >> to take it up with the fedora board I believe. > > No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have > information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. > > poc > Yeah, well, how do you think I feel having found this first thing this morning? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 10:51 +, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > > users mailing list > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > my time. You can always just filter posts from certain annoying users, but if you want to ask for someone to be banned you need to write directly to the list admins (not moderators, this list is not moderated). You can get the address from the list info page. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 11:27 +, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:51:05 + > Richard Hughes wrote: > > > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > > > users mailing list > > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > > > > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > > my time. > > Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is > basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need > to take it up with the fedora board I believe. No doubt some people have done so, but "most people"? Do you have information on this? Enquiring minds want to know. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:51:05 + Richard Hughes wrote: > On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > > users mailing list > > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The > signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting > my time. Most people already left for fedora forum and the like. The list is basically not managed so its useless. If you want to fix that you need to take it up with the fedora board I believe. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Neal Becker Software Package..?
On 3 January 2012 23:05, Linda McLeod wrote: > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org Either the moderators ban this user, or I'm unsubscribing. The signal-to-noise ratio is just too low at the moment and it's wasting my time. Richard. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
