Re: workstation spin
On 6/14/15, Amadeus W.M. wrote: > Sorry for the delayed response. What I'm saying is that if there is a > live workstation iso, then there should be also a full workstation iso > that contains the development suite (as we know it from the recent past). > I understand the development suite cannot/need not be included in the > live iso, but it certainly can be included on a 4.3G dvd. And people can > download the image and install without the media, as I've been doing for > as long as that method has been available. > > This is just my preference, because I feel more comfortable having all > the packages I need on my local disk first, then install from there, so I > don't depend on the network during install. But, if the trend is to > provide a minimal install, then I guess we'll just have to live with that. I too have been downloading the image and installing without burning it onto any media, for years now, so I would like to "second" the request for a full DVD image again, for things other than Server. In my case, I have an extremely slow network at home and therefore download my Fedora images elsewhere, so being forced to do a "network" install now is a real drag. (I posted a related question to the list about five days ago but there has been no reply so I'm beginning to assume it is no longer possible, for whatever reasons.) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Tue, 09 Jun 2015 19:17:05 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 10:40:03PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: >> I understand the parsimony of the live image, but why isn't there a >> full fledged workstation iso available anymore? Or is there and I just >> missed it? > > There's no reasonble way to distribute media with all of the software > that someone might consider a necessary part of "full fledged". It just > ends up being a game of "why doesn't this have what I want, and why does > it have this other thing I don't instead?" And, since we tend to have a > lot of updates, it's nice to get whatever's freshest when you go to > first install it, rather than install and update. > > Maybe we can step back a bit here. What are you trying to accomplish? > > -- > Matthew Miller > Fedora Project Leader Sorry for the delayed response. What I'm saying is that if there is a live workstation iso, then there should be also a full workstation iso that contains the development suite (as we know it from the recent past). I understand the development suite cannot/need not be included in the live iso, but it certainly can be included on a 4.3G dvd. And people can download the image and install without the media, as I've been doing for as long as that method has been available. This is just my preference, because I feel more comfortable having all the packages I need on my local disk first, then install from there, so I don't depend on the network during install. But, if the trend is to provide a minimal install, then I guess we'll just have to live with that. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 10:40:03PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: > I understand the parsimony of the live image, but why isn't there a > full fledged workstation iso available anymore? Or is there and I > just missed it? There's no reasonble way to distribute media with all of the software that someone might consider a necessary part of "full fledged". It just ends up being a game of "why doesn't this have what I want, and why does it have this other thing I don't instead?" And, since we tend to have a lot of updates, it's nice to get whatever's freshest when you go to first install it, rather than install and update. Maybe we can step back a bit here. What are you trying to accomplish? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:17:56 +0200, Suvayu Ali wrote: > On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 08, 2015 at 10:54:35PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: >> > I'm not talking about the desktop, choosing one or another is trivial. >> > I'm talking about install time. I installed F22 from the live iso >> > (the only available), and I had no choice of customizing what's being >> > installed. Maybe I missed something or maybe I chose the wrong install >> > source. >> >> The emphasis is on getting you to a basic running system quickly, with >> as few questions as possible. Once there, you have much more powerful >> options for adding software, and it's available whenever is convenient. >> Why duplicate this at install time? > > More to the point, I don't think the Live images ever offered a choice. > That's kind-of the idea about live images. When you install from them, > you get the exact same system that you would get if you were to boot > from it. I would try the netinstall image to get choices. > > I believe, there was some talk of having updated live images from time > to time during the lifetime of a Fedora release, to aid installing an > updated Fedora version easier. It was abandoned as it required more > effort than available. > > -- > Suvayu > > Open source is the future. It sets us free. I understand the parsimony of the live image, but why isn't there a full fledged workstation iso available anymore? Or is there and I just missed it? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 08:55:07AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Mon, Jun 08, 2015 at 10:54:35PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: > > I'm not talking about the desktop, choosing one or another is trivial. > > I'm talking about install time. I installed F22 from the live iso > > (the only available), and I had no choice of customizing what's being > > installed. Maybe I missed something or maybe I chose the wrong install > > source. > > The emphasis is on getting you to a basic running system quickly, with > as few questions as possible. Once there, you have much more powerful > options for adding software, and it's available whenever is convenient. > Why duplicate this at install time? More to the point, I don't think the Live images ever offered a choice. That's kind-of the idea about live images. When you install from them, you get the exact same system that you would get if you were to boot from it. I would try the netinstall image to get choices. I believe, there was some talk of having updated live images from time to time during the lifetime of a Fedora release, to aid installing an updated Fedora version easier. It was abandoned as it required more effort than available. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
May be he could try Korora (www.kororaproject.org) which has everything setup and all eye-candy on right OOTB for graphical users. On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:55 AM Matthew Miller wrote: > On Mon, Jun 08, 2015 at 10:54:35PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: > > I'm not talking about the desktop, choosing one or another is trivial. > > I'm talking about install time. I installed F22 from the live iso > > (the only available), and I had no choice of customizing what's being > > installed. Maybe I missed something or maybe I chose the wrong install > > source. > > The emphasis is on getting you to a basic running system quickly, with > as few questions as possible. Once there, you have much more powerful > options for adding software, and it's available whenever is convenient. > Why duplicate this at install time? > > > -- > Matthew Miller > > Fedora Project Leader > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org > -- -Martín -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Mon, Jun 08, 2015 at 10:54:35PM +, Amadeus W.M. wrote: > I'm not talking about the desktop, choosing one or another is trivial. > I'm talking about install time. I installed F22 from the live iso > (the only available), and I had no choice of customizing what's being > installed. Maybe I missed something or maybe I chose the wrong install > source. The emphasis is on getting you to a basic running system quickly, with as few questions as possible. Once there, you have much more powerful options for adding software, and it's available whenever is convenient. Why duplicate this at install time? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 07:55:21 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: >> Am 07.06.2015 um 22:28 schrieb Amadeus W.M. : >> >> Someone please enlighten me. What does the current workstation spin >> actually have to do with work? >> >> On a workstation one might want to do some development, C/C++, java, >> web, >> python, latex, modeling, engineering, whatever. One might want to have >> at least windows that come with minimization buttons already, to >> configure our own shortcuts. I mean, really, do I have to get/enable >> extensions just to get minimization/maximization buttons on my windows? > > …. > > >> I know this will be classified as a rant, and there will be those who >> say "why don't you do it?". I don't mean to be negative, I just want to >> point out the need for an actual workstation spin, in the hope that >> someone in the steering committee would agree. >> >> > It might be qualified as rant, yes. That discussion is closed and in > some way lost for those who try to use Fedora for real productive work. > > And „workstation“ is not a spin but a kind of „product“ or „edition“ in > contrast to server and cloud. You must not take it literally. „desktop“ > might have been more appropriate > > On the login screen you can switch to „Gnome Classic“ (the round symbol > besides the login button) which gives you a desktop better for real work > (the same as with the current enterprise line). With F22 the Classic > desktop is quite ok, again, and easier to use as having to configure all > that extension stuff by yourself. > > At the end you may better switch to a „real“ spin, i.e. XFCE or KDE > desktop. In particular, XFCE has obviously benefited greatly from the > disappointment of Gnome 3 in recent years and has "grown up“. For me > it's really become usable. The Gnome community is a lost case. > > > > I'm not talking about the desktop, choosing one or another is trivial. I'm talking about install time. I installed F22 from the live iso (the only available), and I had no choice of customizing what's being installed. Maybe I missed something or maybe I chose the wrong install source. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On 06/08/2015 01:55 AM, Peter Boy wrote: I know this will be classified as a rant, and there will be those who say "why don't you do it?". I don't mean to be negative, I just want to point out the need for an actual workstation spin, in the hope that someone in the steering committee would agree. It might be qualified as rant, yes. That discussion is closed and in some way lost for those who try to use Fedora for real productive work. And „workstation“ is not a spin but a kind of „product“ or „edition“ in contrast to server and cloud. You must not take it literally. „desktop“ might have been more appropriate On the login screen you can switch to „Gnome Classic“ (the round symbol besides the login button) which gives you a desktop better for real work (the same as with the current enterprise line). With F22 the Classic desktop is quite ok, again, and easier to use as having to configure all that extension stuff by yourself. At the end you may better switch to a „real“ spin, i.e. XFCE or KDE desktop. In particular, XFCE has obviously benefited greatly from the disappointment of Gnome 3 in recent years and has "grown up“. For me it's really become usable. The Gnome community is a lost case. I could not agree with you more. I don't know, for the life of me, how we are attracting new Windows users. Over the weekend I installed two virtual machines from the workstation spin (trying to diagnose a problem) . You end up with that idiotic bar at the top and an empty desktop - neither of which can be customized. "Activities?" Give me a break. People want a way to get to the applications that they need to use. Switching desktops, by the way, is no simple matter (I'll refrain from the rant). Gnome has been the default desktop forever. Were it up to me it would XFCE (in spite of the fact that I use KDE). The problem is not the shortcomings of Gnome - it's getting anyone to listen. -- David C. Hart - South Beach http://www.slowlyboiledfrog.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:44:49 +0200
Peter Boy wrote:
> There is a net install option as well which might give you more
> options. Haven’t tried yet.
When I used the netinstall option, it was very similar to the old CD
version of the netinstall image, using the new anaconda, of course. In
particular, I could install packages from the net if I wanted to during
install. But there was also a minimal install option, that allowed me
to get the base install done quickly. Then I just booted into it and
used tools from within it to do all the customizing over time.
rpm --qf "%{NAME}\n" -qa > installed_pkgs.txt
is your friend.
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Re: workstation spin
On 06/08/2015 03:44 AM, Peter Boy wrote: Am 08.06.2015 um 08:40 schrieb Michael D. Setzer II : On 8 Jun 2015 at 7:55, Peter Boy wrote: I recently setup an machine using the workstation option. Did an rpm -qa afterwards, and it have over 1000 less things installed than my other systems that had been upgraded from versions where you could select things, and also add other things. …… I stated back when it was Red Hat 9, before the fedora came out, and liked using the DVD options, and then selecting more to install. The live distribution gives you no software selection option, indeed. You may use the network install (e.g. http://ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de/fedora/linux/releases/22/Workstation/x86_64/iso/Fedora-Workstation-netinst-x86_64-22.iso). It gives you back a "virtual DVD“. Not as detailed as it previously used to be. Also, didn't like the server option, since tried it on another machine, and it didn't install the graphical desktop?? Even doing an update you have to say nonproduction (?) Perhaps there is an option to still do this, but the default download I got seemed to be very limited. There is a net install option as well which might give you more options. Haven’t tried yet. I have used the netinstall on several commputers. I do an minimal install with just enough X to run a graphical desktop, then I run a script to install the software that I want on each computer. Not all computers get the same software. Works great. David Best Peter — Dr. Peter Boy Universität Bremen Mary-Somerville-Str. 5 28359 Bremen Germany p...@zes.uni-bremen.de www.zes.uni-bremen.de Are you looking for a web content management system for scientific research organizations? Have a look at http://www.scientificcms.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
> Am 08.06.2015 um 08:40 schrieb Michael D. Setzer II : > > On 8 Jun 2015 at 7:55, Peter Boy wrote: > > I recently setup an > machine using the workstation option. Did an rpm -qa afterwards, and it have > over 1000 less things installed than my other systems that had been > upgraded from versions where you could select things, and also add other > things. > > …… > > I stated back when it was Red Hat 9, before the fedora came out, and liked > using the DVD options, and then selecting more to install. The live distribution gives you no software selection option, indeed. You may use the network install (e.g. http://ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de/fedora/linux/releases/22/Workstation/x86_64/iso/Fedora-Workstation-netinst-x86_64-22.iso). It gives you back a "virtual DVD“. Not as detailed as it previously used to be. > > Also, didn't like the server option, since tried it on another machine, and > it > didn't install the graphical desktop?? > > Even doing an update you have to say nonproduction (?) > > Perhaps there is an option to still do this, but the default download I got > seemed to be very limited. There is a net install option as well which might give you more options. Haven’t tried yet. Best Peter > — Dr. Peter Boy Universität Bremen Mary-Somerville-Str. 5 28359 Bremen Germany p...@zes.uni-bremen.de www.zes.uni-bremen.de Are you looking for a web content management system for scientific research organizations? Have a look at http://www.scientificcms.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
On 8 Jun 2015 at 7:55, Peter Boy wrote: Subject:Re: workstation spin From: Peter Boy Date sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 07:55:21 +0200 To: Community support for Fedora users Send reply to: Community support for Fedora users > > > Am 07.06.2015 um 22:28 schrieb Amadeus W.M. : > > > > Someone please enlighten me. What does the current workstation spin > > actually have to do with work? > > > > On a workstation one might want to do some development, C/C++, java, web, > > python, latex, modeling, engineering, whatever. One might want to have at > > least windows that come with minimization buttons already, to configure > > our own shortcuts. I mean, really, do I have to get/enable extensions > > just to get minimization/maximization buttons on my windows? > > …. > > > > > I know this will be classified as a rant, and there will be those who say > > "why don't you do it?". I don't mean to be negative, I just want to point > > out the need for an actual workstation spin, in the hope that someone in > > the steering committee would agree. > > > > It might be qualified as rant, yes. That discussion is closed and in some way > lost for those who try to use Fedora for real productive work. > > And „workstation“ is not a spin but a kind of „product“ or „edition“ in > contrast to server and cloud. You must not take it literally. „desktop“ might > have been more appropriate > > On the login screen you can switch to „Gnome Classic“ (the round symbol > besides the login button) which gives you a desktop better for real work (the > same as with the current enterprise line). With F22 the Classic desktop is > quite ok, again, and easier to use as having to configure all that extension > stuff by yourself. > > At the end you may better switch to a „real“ spin, i.e. XFCE or KDE desktop. > In particular, XFCE has obviously benefited greatly from the disappointment > of Gnome 3 in recent years and has "grown up“. For me it's really become > usable. The Gnome community is a lost case. > I agree that the latest option are less than I would like. I recently setup an machine using the workstation option. Did an rpm -qa afterwards, and it have over 1000 less things installed than my other systems that had been upgraded from versions where you could select things, and also add other things. What I did was to use rpm -qa to get a list of all the packages on the other machines, and created a script with yum install (added the list) with --skip-broken Gives a message about already installed and lasted for what is already installed, but did find a few things that where no longer available. I stated back when it was Red Hat 9, before the fedora came out, and liked using the DVD options, and then selecting more to install. Also, didn't like the server option, since tried it on another machine, and it didn't install the graphical desktop?? Even doing an update you have to say nonproduction (?) Perhaps there is an option to still do this, but the default download I got seemed to be very limited. > > > > — > Dr. Peter Boy > Universität Bremen > Mary-Somerville-Str. 5 > 28359 Bremen > Germany > > p...@zes.uni-bremen.de > www.zes.uni-bremen.de > > > > Are you looking for a web content management system for scientific research > organizations? > Have a look at http://www.scientificcms.org > > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org +--+ Michael D. Setzer II - Computer Science Instructor Guam Community College Computer Center mailto:mi...@kuentos.guam.net mailto:msetze...@gmail.com http://www.guam.net/home/mikes Guam - Where America's Day Begins G4L Disk Imaging Project maintainer http://sourceforge.net/projects/g4l/ +--+ http://setiathome.berkeley.edu (Original) Number of Seti Units Returned: 19,471 Processing time: 32 years, 290 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes (Total Hours: 287,489) BOINC@HOME CREDITS ROSETTA 30477936.285971 | SETI53994581.372166 ABC 16613838.513356 | EINSTEIN63097157.404700 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
> Am 07.06.2015 um 22:28 schrieb Amadeus W.M. : > > Someone please enlighten me. What does the current workstation spin > actually have to do with work? > > On a workstation one might want to do some development, C/C++, java, web, > python, latex, modeling, engineering, whatever. One might want to have at > least windows that come with minimization buttons already, to configure > our own shortcuts. I mean, really, do I have to get/enable extensions > just to get minimization/maximization buttons on my windows? …. > > I know this will be classified as a rant, and there will be those who say > "why don't you do it?". I don't mean to be negative, I just want to point > out the need for an actual workstation spin, in the hope that someone in > the steering committee would agree. > It might be qualified as rant, yes. That discussion is closed and in some way lost for those who try to use Fedora for real productive work. And „workstation“ is not a spin but a kind of „product“ or „edition“ in contrast to server and cloud. You must not take it literally. „desktop“ might have been more appropriate On the login screen you can switch to „Gnome Classic“ (the round symbol besides the login button) which gives you a desktop better for real work (the same as with the current enterprise line). With F22 the Classic desktop is quite ok, again, and easier to use as having to configure all that extension stuff by yourself. At the end you may better switch to a „real“ spin, i.e. XFCE or KDE desktop. In particular, XFCE has obviously benefited greatly from the disappointment of Gnome 3 in recent years and has "grown up“. For me it's really become usable. The Gnome community is a lost case. — Dr. Peter Boy Universität Bremen Mary-Somerville-Str. 5 28359 Bremen Germany p...@zes.uni-bremen.de www.zes.uni-bremen.de Are you looking for a web content management system for scientific research organizations? Have a look at http://www.scientificcms.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: workstation spin
Hi. Workstation targets developers, any kind of developers. But that doesn't mean that everything that a potential target user wants should be included in the default install. Should all the Java tools be installed when someone wants to do C development? Probably not. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
