Re: saving backward compatibility :-)
On Sat, Apr 29, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Patrick O'Callaghan said: > > On Sat, 2023-04-29 at 10:23 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: > > > I'd wager there are shell scripts using fgrep that were written on > > > the first pdp-11 unix and are still in use today > > > > IIRC early PDP-11 UNIX (pre System V) only had grep. fgrep and egrep > > are later additions. (Not trying to counter your argument). > > The warning (and presumably eventual removal) of egrep/fgrep is really > pretty dumb. In most cases, the idea of removing deprecated > functionality is to remove stale code and/or reduce code complexity. > But there's zero benefit to removing egrep/fgrep, since the > functionality will still be there (as grep -E and grep -F), and the > "complexity" of each is a one-liner shell script (arguably, this could > just be a couple of lines in grep to detect argv[0] and use symlinks). > My career was in scientific research, where many subject niches are pursued by a relatively few people work in a particular topic and are spread around the globe. Many of these niche areas rely on software with unix in the pedigree, a combination of shell scripts and Fortran programs, and are now used with different linux distros and POSIX-like environments (Mysy2 or Cygwin in Windows) or macOS. Users working for large enterprises or government agencies generally have no choice of OS. Few of these users are well-versed in linux (and have never heard of POSIX). Many are contributing bug fixes or adding capabilities and sharing those with the community. When macOS replaced bash with zsh and some linux distros started using dash for instead of bash for /bin/sh, there was a shift to remove bashisms from shell scripts, or to replace problematic shell scripts with Python scripts. An example of the later is [NASA's OCSSW Processing System]( https://oceancolor.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ocssw/index.html). When running commands, egrep and fgrep are easier/shorter to type than > grep -E and grep -F (espcially since the options are capitalized). I > can easily work around the stupidity by just making egrep/fgrep shell > aliases instead, bypassing the warning for interactive use, but that > doesn't make it any less dumb. > This is fine for personal use, but as soon as you start sharing script with a diverse community, using the extra 3 characters can save a lot of time and confusion. There is absolutely zero demonstrable benefit to this warning (and > eventual removal), except to break old scripts and old typing habits. > You are thinking in terms of personal use. These days, linux is used to develop software that will be used on other platforms. Changes like the removal of [ef]grep are helpful with scripts that will be used in Cygwin, Msys2, and macOS (BSD) environments. There are other approaches. For bash there are bashism detection scripts. It might have been better to provide additional portability warning tools, but them as writes the programs gets to choose the approach. -- George N. White III ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: saving backward compatibility :-)
Once upon a time, Patrick O'Callaghan said: > On Sat, 2023-04-29 at 10:23 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: > > I'd wager there are shell scripts using fgrep that were written on > > the first pdp-11 unix and are still in use today > > IIRC early PDP-11 UNIX (pre System V) only had grep. fgrep and egrep > are later additions. (Not trying to counter your argument). The warning (and presumably eventual removal) of egrep/fgrep is really pretty dumb. In most cases, the idea of removing deprecated functionality is to remove stale code and/or reduce code complexity. But there's zero benefit to removing egrep/fgrep, since the functionality will still be there (as grep -E and grep -F), and the "complexity" of each is a one-liner shell script (arguably, this could just be a couple of lines in grep to detect argv[0] and use symlinks). When running commands, egrep and fgrep are easier/shorter to type than grep -E and grep -F (espcially since the options are capitalized). I can easily work around the stupidity by just making egrep/fgrep shell aliases instead, bypassing the warning for interactive use, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. There is absolutely zero demonstrable benefit to this warning (and eventual removal), except to break old scripts and old typing habits. -- Chris Adams ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: saving backward compatibility :-)
On Sat, 2023-04-29 at 10:23 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: > I'd wager there are shell scripts using fgrep that were written on > the first pdp-11 unix and are still in use today IIRC early PDP-11 UNIX (pre System V) only had grep. fgrep and egrep are later additions. (Not trying to counter your argument). poc ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
saving backward compatibility :-)
I'd wager there are shell scripts using fgrep that were written on the first pdp-11 unix and are still in use today, but appeasing someone's OCD is more important than backward compatibility for tens of thousands of systems all over the world. OK fine, I know I'll lose any argument here, so I've used my "big hammer" to write some new scripts to fix the issues I've found so far: https://tomhorsley.com/game/Mjolnir.html Whenever a dnf update brings back the stderr message for egrep and fgrep, I've got a script that copies the egrep and fgrep from fedora 37 that I saved off back over the top of the egrep and fgrep scripts in /usr/bin :-). No more annoying stderr spew. Also the -p and -i options of uname were broken, so another script I have notices if uname stops working again and moves the new /usr/bin/uname to /usr/bin/uname.real and copies in a unmae script that swaps a -i or -p option to be -m instead then invokes uname.real At least my sanity is saved :-). ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
