Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Hi Mark, As Dino mentioned we (Enthought) are working on refactoring Numpy into a pure C core with CPython and IronPython interface layers. This is largely complete and available at github (https://github.com/numpy/numpy-refactor), though the core layer is largely undocumented thus far. This is the multi-dimensional array. SciPy is in progress and we are updating it to work with the refactored numpy core and to add an IronPython interface. I assume you are looking for IronPython interfaces to SciPy as opposed to a C interface, correct? Regards, Jason On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Dino Viehland di...@microsoft.com wrote: Enthought has been working on getting numpy/scipy ported over to work w/ IronPython. I believe numpy is working but I’m not sure of how far along SciPy is. There’s a separate mailing list for this at: https://mail.enthought.com/mailman/listinfo/scipy4dotnet It’s very low traffic – it’s usually just working through issues Enthought has run into and either workarounds or suggested changes to IronPython. I’d suggest sending a mail there – they might have something you can try. *From:* users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Senko *Sent:* Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:49 AM *To:* users@lists.ironpython.com *Subject:* [IronPython] SciPy I’ve been searching for the current state of support for “C” based libraries, specifically SciPy (I’m just looking for a decent numerical analysis package). The responses I’ve seen on various websites are somewhat dated. What is the latest status, or is there no effort towards accommodating the C API? Is IronClad still the best option? Any info, suggestions and warnings would be appreciated before I start to invest a lot of time into installing and learning these packages. *Mark Senko* Complete Genomics, Inc. 2071 Stierlin Court Mountain View, CA 94043 The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are confidential and only for use by the intended recipient. Any unauthorized use, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your system. Thank you for your co-operation. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Thank you. My real goal is to find a decent math/numerical package that I can use without having to reinvent the wheel. My searches came up with numpy/SciPy. Whether it actually uses the C interface or is a refactored version for .NET really doesn’t matter to me. At least not much. I think I’ll take this opportunity to explain to this portion of the IronPython community (which seems to contain most of the real “movers” ) why I chose IronPython, and what I want to accomplish with it. I’m sure my use case may be of interest, at least academically, to some of you. I write software that controls hardware … it moves samples around with a robot and stage, controls shutters, light sources, moves optics, performs data acquisition and data analysis. It’s a complicated system. It requires scientists and engineers with high levels of knowledge in optics, physics, electronics to develop, study and understand performance, and to calibrate. At my old company, we wrote our own macro language (early ‘90s) which provided functions to move the pieces of hardware, call higher level routines in our code, call mathematical and higher level analysis routines, plot, macros could call other macros … just about anything you want a scripting language to do. The portion of my efforts I spent extending this macro language was time well spent. Instead of being the bottleneck that had to write all new tests and experiments and new platform prototyping, I enabled the other scientists and engineers to do it themselves. I was an enabler, and productivity shot through the roof. Some of the macros written were simple, others complicated … but most were not written by me, they were written by the scientists and engineers. But, they were not programmers … at least not in the computer scientist sense. They think procedurally, not object oriented. They don’t want to argue about global vs. local variables, or whether a GOTO is good programming style. They don’t develop web pages. At my new company, which builds a tool with similar demands, I am implementing similar scripting abilities. I didn’t want to write my own scripting language again, that would be crazy with the number that are already available. The core needs are control over the hardware, numerical capabilities, plotting capabilities. The language also needs to be straightforward without too much overhead, like a pile of import statements, that don’t really contribute to the functionality. I also wanted a language with a some history, and lot’s of community written libraries that I could use without having to write my own. I did my internet search and looked at many different scripting languages, finally settling on Python as having the best set of language features for my needs. Granted, I HATE the indentation control, especially since an auto-indented line has a “different” indentation than the preceding line which was indented with spaces (unless you carefully set up your editor). I would much rather see braces or ENDIF,ENDFOR, ENDDEF … statements. That’s just an aside … Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. Ah, but here is IronPython. So I learned how to embed it, wrote my own console, learned how to make static wrappers, how to make my functions global, and how to make python functions global. I’m still learning the best and easiest ways to use it for our needs. But, I’m starting to find that the community developed libraries I was counting on are more often than not out of reach. That is what I found when I started looking for a simple math package that would fit a polynomial, perform an FFT, maybe even do a non-linear least squares fit. And I still need to find a plotting package … Anyway, I thought this might be interesting to some of you. Mark Senko Complete Genomics, Inc. 2071 Stierlin Court Mountain View, CA 94043 From: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] On Behalf Of Jason McCampbell Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 7:13 AM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi Mark, As Dino mentioned we (Enthought) are working on refactoring Numpy into a pure C core with CPython and IronPython interface layers. This is largely complete and available at github (https://github.com/numpy/numpy-refactor), though the core layer is largely undocumented thus far. This is the multi-dimensional array. SciPy is in progress and we are updating it to work with the refactored numpy core and to add an IronPython interface. I assume you are looking for IronPython interfaces to SciPy as opposed to a C interface, correct? Regards, Jason On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Dino Viehland di...@microsoft.com wrote: Enthought has been working on getting numpy/scipy ported over to work w/ IronPython. I believe numpy is working but I’m
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Hello Mark, If you can't find an open source math package that meets your needs you may want to take a look at CenterSpace's NMath Library. The library is .Net compatible. See: http://www.centerspace.net/products/nmath/ Cost: $995 for Nmath or $1295 for NMath and a statistical library. Howard On 12/20/2010 12:32 PM, Mark Senko wrote: Thank you. My real goal is to find a decent math/numerical package that I can use without having to reinvent the wheel. My searches came up with numpy/SciPy. Whether it actually uses the C interface or is a refactored version for .NET really doesn’t matter to me. At least not much. I think I’ll take this opportunity to explain to this portion of the IronPython community (which seems to contain most of the real “movers” ) why I chose IronPython, and what I want to accomplish with it. I’m sure my use case may be of interest, at least academically, to some of you. I write software that controls hardware … it moves samples around with a robot and stage, controls shutters, light sources, moves optics, performs data acquisition and data analysis. It’s a complicated system. It requires scientists and engineers with high levels of knowledge in optics, physics, electronics to develop, study and understand performance, and to calibrate. At my old company, we wrote our own macro language (early ‘90s) which provided functions to move the pieces of hardware, call higher level routines in our code, call mathematical and higher level analysis routines, plot, macros could call other macros … just about anything you want a scripting language to do. The portion of my efforts I spent extending this macro language was time well spent. Instead of being the bottleneck that had to write all new tests and experiments and new platform prototyping, I enabled the other scientists and engineers to do it themselves. I was an enabler, and productivity shot through the roof. Some of the macros written were simple, others complicated … but most were not written by me, they were written by the scientists and engineers. But, they were not programmers … at least not in the computer scientist sense. They think procedurally, not object oriented. They don’t want to argue about global vs. local variables, or whether a GOTO is good programming style. They don’t develop web pages. At my new company, which builds a tool with similar demands, I am implementing similar scripting abilities. I didn’t want to write my own scripting language again, that would be crazy with the number that are already available. The core needs are control over the hardware, numerical capabilities, plotting capabilities. The language also needs to be straightforward without too much overhead, like a pile of import statements, that don’t really contribute to the functionality. I also wanted a language with a some history, and lot’s of community written libraries that I could use without having to write my own. I did my internet search and looked at many different scripting languages, finally settling on Python as having the best set of language features for my needs. Granted, I HATE the indentation control, especially since an auto-indented line has a “different” indentation than the preceding line which was indented with spaces (unless you carefully set up your editor). I would much rather see braces or ENDIF,ENDFOR, ENDDEF … statements. That’s just an aside … Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. Ah, but here is IronPython. So I learned how to embed it, wrote my own console, learned how to make static wrappers, how to make my functions global, and how to make python functions global. I’m still learning the best and easiest ways to use it for our needs. But, I’m starting to find that the community developed libraries I was counting on are more often than not out of reach. That is what I found when I started looking for a simple math package that would fit a polynomial, perform an FFT, maybe even do a non-linear least squares fit. And I still need to find a plotting package … Anyway, I thought this might be interesting to some of you. *Mark Senko* Complete Genomics, Inc. 2071 Stierlin Court Mountain View, CA 94043 *From:*users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason McCampbell *Sent:* Monday, December 20, 2010 7:13 AM *To:* Discussion of IronPython *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi Mark, As Dino mentioned we (Enthought) are working on refactoring Numpy into a pure C core with CPython and IronPython interface layers. This is largely complete and available at github (https://github.com/numpy/numpy-refactor), though the core layer is largely undocumented thus far. This is the multi-dimensional array. SciPy is in progress and we are updating it to work with the refactored numpy core and to add an IronPython
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
There's also MetaNumerics (http://metanumerics.codeplex.com/) On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Mark Senko mse...@completegenomics.comwrote: Thank you. My real goal is to find a decent math/numerical package that I can use without having to reinvent the wheel. My searches came up with numpy/SciPy. Whether it actually uses the C interface or is a refactored version for .NET really doesn’t matter to me. At least not much. I think I’ll take this opportunity to explain to this portion of the IronPython community (which seems to contain most of the real “movers” ) why I chose IronPython, and what I want to accomplish with it. I’m sure my use case may be of interest, at least academically, to some of you. I write software that controls hardware … it moves samples around with a robot and stage, controls shutters, light sources, moves optics, performs data acquisition and data analysis. It’s a complicated system. It requires scientists and engineers with high levels of knowledge in optics, physics, electronics to develop, study and understand performance, and to calibrate. At my old company, we wrote our own macro language (early ‘90s) which provided functions to move the pieces of hardware, call higher level routines in our code, call mathematical and higher level analysis routines, plot, macros could call other macros … just about anything you want a scripting language to do. The portion of my efforts I spent extending this macro language was time well spent. Instead of being the bottleneck that had to write all new tests and experiments and new platform prototyping, I enabled the other scientists and engineers to do it themselves. I was an enabler, and productivity shot through the roof. Some of the macros written were simple, others complicated … but most were not written by me, they were written by the scientists and engineers. But, they were not programmers … at least not in the computer scientist sense. They think procedurally, not object oriented. They don’t want to argue about global vs. local variables, or whether a GOTO is good programming style. They don’t develop web pages. At my new company, which builds a tool with similar demands, I am implementing similar scripting abilities. I didn’t want to write my own scripting language again, that would be crazy with the number that are already available. The core needs are control over the hardware, numerical capabilities, plotting capabilities. The language also needs to be straightforward without too much overhead, like a pile of import statements, that don’t really contribute to the functionality. I also wanted a language with a some history, and lot’s of community written libraries that I could use without having to write my own. I did my internet search and looked at many different scripting languages, finally settling on Python as having the best set of language features for my needs. Granted, I HATE the indentation control, especially since an auto-indented line has a “different” indentation than the preceding line which was indented with spaces (unless you carefully set up your editor). I would much rather see braces or ENDIF,ENDFOR, ENDDEF … statements. That’s just an aside … Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. Ah, but here is IronPython. So I learned how to embed it, wrote my own console, learned how to make static wrappers, how to make my functions global, and how to make python functions global. I’m still learning the best and easiest ways to use it for our needs. But, I’m starting to find that the community developed libraries I was counting on are more often than not out of reach. That is what I found when I started looking for a simple math package that would fit a polynomial, perform an FFT, maybe even do a non-linear least squares fit. And I still need to find a plotting package … Anyway, I thought this might be interesting to some of you. *Mark Senko* Complete Genomics, Inc. 2071 Stierlin Court Mountain View, CA 94043 *From:* users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason McCampbell *Sent:* Monday, December 20, 2010 7:13 AM *To:* Discussion of IronPython *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi Mark, As Dino mentioned we (Enthought) are working on refactoring Numpy into a pure C core with CPython and IronPython interface layers. This is largely complete and available at github (https://github.com/numpy/numpy-refactor), though the core layer is largely undocumented thus far. This is the multi-dimensional array. SciPy is in progress and we are updating it to work with the refactored numpy core and to add an IronPython interface. I assume you are looking for IronPython interfaces to SciPy as opposed to a C interface, correct? Regards, Jason On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:56
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Hi All, I am not intended to add oil to the fire, but I am curious whether somebody can comment on the statement of Mark Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. I have a similar situation, meaning C# application that needs to be a) scriptable b) usable for image/data processing using e.g. NumPy and SciPy. While IronPython seems to be the 'easy bet', I wonder if it is also a 'safe bet' for the long term future and whether there are tangible alternatives like e.g. PythonNET (I hope there are others, preferrably backed up by some heavyweight/commercial players). Can anyone comment on this one? Anybody is using or going to use IronPython in commercial apps? Thanks in advance. -- Oleksii ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
As far as commercial apps go we are using IronPython as a scripting option for the next version of our 3d modeling software, Rhinoceros. http://www.rhino3d.com/ support site specific to python in Rhino http://python.rhino3d.com/ -Steve From: Oleksii Bidiuk Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 1:04 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi All, I am not intended to add oil to the fire, but I am curious whether somebody can comment on the statement of Mark Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. I have a similar situation, meaning C# application that needs to be a) scriptable b) usable for image/data processing using e.g. NumPy and SciPy. While IronPython seems to be the 'easy bet', I wonder if it is also a 'safe bet' for the long term future and whether there are tangible alternatives like e.g. PythonNET (I hope there are others, preferrably backed up by some heavyweight/commercial players). Can anyone comment on this one? Anybody is using or going to use IronPython in commercial apps? Thanks in advance. -- Oleksii ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Hello, Just to add to Oleksii’s comment, I’m also in a similar situation where I’d like to make an application scriptable with any of my good Iron language friend. I have been using IronPython and IronRuby for side projects for quite some time but not embedded in an application distributed to users. I will probably be embedding both languages but at some point I will need choose one for my users as I will need to create some helpers. I’m still hesitating between both languages so I’d like to know what others think about this. * I prefer the expressiveness of Ruby but I think Python me be easier to learn (for a non programmer technical person) * IronPython seems to perform much better than IronRuby but performance is not an issue in my case (compared to numerical computation) * Since the Iron languages have been released to the community I’m afraid they will not be equally supported or even stop to evolve and support new .net features. It seems to me that the IronPython community is bigger, so it might have a greater chance to survive or be able to continue evolve. Thanks; Pascal From: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] On Behalf Of Oleksii Bidiuk Sent: December-20-10 4:05 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi All, I am not intended to add oil to the fire, but I am curious whether somebody can comment on the statement of Mark Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. I have a similar situation, meaning C# application that needs to be a) scriptable b) usable for image/data processing using e.g. NumPy and SciPy. While IronPython seems to be the 'easy bet', I wonder if it is also a 'safe bet' for the long term future and whether there are tangible alternatives like e.g. PythonNET (I hope there are others, preferrably backed up by some heavyweight/commercial players). Can anyone comment on this one? Anybody is using or going to use IronPython in commercial apps? Thanks in advance. -- Oleksii ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
You don't necessarily need to make this choice. IronPython and IronRuby mostly talk to each other (modulo bugs, which I would be happy to fix if possible :-). You can write your helpers in Python and let your users call them from Ruby (and vice versa). Or your helpers could be written in C# or VB. Granted, helpers designed specifically for one particular language might be easier/nicer to use from that language, but you can go pretty far with language interop. Tomas From: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] on behalf of Pascal Normandin [pas...@travobject.com] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 1:53 PM To: 'Discussion of IronPython' Subject: Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hello, Just to add to Oleksii’s comment, I’m also in a similar situation where I’d like to make an application scriptable with any of my good Iron language friend. I have been using IronPython and IronRuby for side projects for quite some time but not embedded in an application distributed to users. I will probably be embedding both languages but at some point I will need choose one for my users as I will need to create some helpers. I’m still hesitating between both languages so I’d like to know what others think about this. * I prefer the expressiveness of Ruby but I think Python me be easier to learn (for a non programmer technical person) * IronPython seems to perform much better than IronRuby but performance is not an issue in my case (compared to numerical computation) * Since the Iron languages have been released to the community I’m afraid they will not be equally supported or even stop to evolve and support new .net features. It seems to me that the IronPython community is bigger, so it might have a greater chance to survive or be able to continue evolve. Thanks; Pascal From: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com [mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com] On Behalf Of Oleksii Bidiuk Sent: December-20-10 4:05 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: Re: [IronPython] SciPy Hi All, I am not intended to add oil to the fire, but I am curious whether somebody can comment on the statement of Mark Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. I have a similar situation, meaning C# application that needs to be a) scriptable b) usable for image/data processing using e.g. NumPy and SciPy. While IronPython seems to be the 'easy bet', I wonder if it is also a 'safe bet' for the long term future and whether there are tangible alternatives like e.g. PythonNET (I hope there are others, preferrably backed up by some heavyweight/commercial players). Can anyone comment on this one? Anybody is using or going to use IronPython in commercial apps? Thanks in advance. -- Oleksii ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.ironpython.com http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com
Re: [IronPython] SciPy
Hello, I was also looking for a math library to use with a research tool I was developing. I am using IronPython as the scripting language as it is easy for non programmers, who are familiar with Matlab, to quickly prototype their algorithms. I evaluated Math.NET (http://mathnetnumerics.codeplex.com/) and ILNumerics (http://ilnumerics.net/). I sill prefer if I could use NumPy and SciPy with IronPython and am interested in trying out the Enthought refactored version. As for plotting packages, MatPlotLib (http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/) is a great plotting library for python. It relies on NumPy. I managed to run it with IronClad, but I still prefer a fully managed version. I ended up writing a wrapper around Microsoft's charting library, so that plot(x,y) could produce a line plot etc. I would love to know if someone came across a plotting library to use with IronPython similar to matplotlib/Matlab type plotting. Aravin On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Mark Senko mse...@completegenomics.comwrote: Thank you. My real goal is to find a decent math/numerical package that I can use without having to reinvent the wheel. My searches came up with numpy/SciPy. Whether it actually uses the C interface or is a refactored version for .NET really doesn’t matter to me. At least not much. I think I’ll take this opportunity to explain to this portion of the IronPython community (which seems to contain most of the real “movers” ) why I chose IronPython, and what I want to accomplish with it. I’m sure my use case may be of interest, at least academically, to some of you. I write software that controls hardware … it moves samples around with a robot and stage, controls shutters, light sources, moves optics, performs data acquisition and data analysis. It’s a complicated system. It requires scientists and engineers with high levels of knowledge in optics, physics, electronics to develop, study and understand performance, and to calibrate. At my old company, we wrote our own macro language (early ‘90s) which provided functions to move the pieces of hardware, call higher level routines in our code, call mathematical and higher level analysis routines, plot, macros could call other macros … just about anything you want a scripting language to do. The portion of my efforts I spent extending this macro language was time well spent. Instead of being the bottleneck that had to write all new tests and experiments and new platform prototyping, I enabled the other scientists and engineers to do it themselves. I was an enabler, and productivity shot through the roof. Some of the macros written were simple, others complicated … but most were not written by me, they were written by the scientists and engineers. But, they were not programmers … at least not in the computer scientist sense. They think procedurally, not object oriented. They don’t want to argue about global vs. local variables, or whether a GOTO is good programming style. They don’t develop web pages. At my new company, which builds a tool with similar demands, I am implementing similar scripting abilities. I didn’t want to write my own scripting language again, that would be crazy with the number that are already available. The core needs are control over the hardware, numerical capabilities, plotting capabilities. The language also needs to be straightforward without too much overhead, like a pile of import statements, that don’t really contribute to the functionality. I also wanted a language with a some history, and lot’s of community written libraries that I could use without having to write my own. I did my internet search and looked at many different scripting languages, finally settling on Python as having the best set of language features for my needs. Granted, I HATE the indentation control, especially since an auto-indented line has a “different” indentation than the preceding line which was indented with spaces (unless you carefully set up your editor). I would much rather see braces or ENDIF,ENDFOR, ENDDEF … statements. That’s just an aside … Our company uses C#. I quickly discovered that C# and Python don’t play well together …. Ah, but here is IronPython. So I learned how to embed it, wrote my own console, learned how to make static wrappers, how to make my functions global, and how to make python functions global. I’m still learning the best and easiest ways to use it for our needs. But, I’m starting to find that the community developed libraries I was counting on are more often than not out of reach. That is what I found when I started looking for a simple math package that would fit a polynomial, perform an FFT, maybe even do a non-linear least squares fit. And I still need to find a plotting package … Anyway, I thought this might be interesting to some of you. *Mark Senko* Complete Genomics, Inc. 2071 Stierlin Court
