Re: Stop this before it goes any further (was Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave)
On 14 Jul 2020, at 12:59, Kurt Fitzner wrote: > This is truly unfortunate. Thanks for changing the topic to evade filters killing this idiotic thread. How supremely selfish and self-centered of you.
Re: Stop this before it goes any further (was Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave)
Amen. > On Jul 14, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Kurt Fitzner wrote: > > This is truly unfortunate. The current trend of whitewashing (and no I'm not > afraid of using a word with "white" in it) away perceived slurs where there > never were any is both troubling and counter-productive. > > I shouldn't have to post something like this here. We should all be adults > and intelligent enough to understand these things. The fact that I have to > is also troubling. I find myself shocked and amazed that these facts are not > self evident. But since they clearly aren't, here they are: > > 1) White_ / Black_ are not now and nor ever were they racially > motivated compound word prefixes. White and black have been and are > references to light and dark, and in every language race and culture on the > planet are used in compound words, phrases and sentences that evoke metaphors > of good and bad. In this context the prefixes have never had anything to do > with skin colour, and to change the words now casts aspersions on everyone > who has ever used them. It's a backusation of prejudice that has just never > been there. White hat / black hat. Light and dark. Good and bad. The > terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" came into being because they are based on > universally understood concepts of light and dark. You are not going to > change the concepts of "light" and "dark" as metaphors for good and bad - the > light and goodness of day and the frightening aspects of night are etched > into our collective racial and likely genetic memories as good and bad from > long before there ever were humans with different skin colours. Treating > whitelist and blacklist as if they are skin-colour related is factually > incorrect. > > 2) Master and slave are also not racially motivated. I don't have to > recapitulate the history of the lasts two centuries, we all know it, but lets > go further back... two millennia and further. Every conquering culture made > slaves of a certain number of its prisoners and vanquished foes. Every > colour and race in history has done this to every other colour and race. The > words are not inherently racially charged. They are simple references to > states. Further more, master and slave are proper and accurate words to use > in many cases outside of a context of actual human slavery. Master denotes > (variously) leadership, authority, skillfulness, and control. Slave denotes > subservience and being controlled. You cannot erase the concepts of > authority and subservience in their entirety because some people once assumed > immoral authority over others. Changing the words you use will not change > the underlying concept, and treating the words like they are racially charged > now is, again, a backusation that is unwarranted and frankly an affront to > all who have ever used them properly. Are we going to change the rank of > master chief, stop having master cylinders, are going to stop mastering > skills? I sincerely hope this madness doesn't spread that far. The words > are not evil. The concepts of master and slave are not even evil. They are > simple word tools for the ease of understanding concepts and relationships. > Unless you intend to erase the whole concept of hierarchical relationships, > the word choices used to denote them can't make them less racial because they > never were. > > 3) The act of changing these words is, itself, actively self defeating. The > irony of changing words that never were racial on the off chance they might > be interpreted that way as a method of getting to a world where race doesn't > matter is acute. Please tell me I am not the only one to see this terrible > irony. We are all looking for that world where race and colour simply don't > matter. Where the colour of one's skin and the culture one is from is of no > more interest than any other fact or statistic about one's individual > phenotypes or family history. Taking words and shining a spotlight on them > as suddenly racial is a step away from that world of "it just doesn't > matter". It is an affront to the (what I hopefully believe is the) majority > of people of all races and cultures for whom colour simply doesn't matter. > And it is making a racial issue where there was none before. This isn't a > step in the right direction. This is not accomplishing that goal. This is > the opposite of accomplishing that goal. > > This action is wrong because it cannot accomplish its stated goal. This is > wrong because it is making racial what was not. This is wrong because the > connotations you giving the words are factually and historically incorrect. > This is wrong, and that should be self evident to every single one of you. > > Kurt Fitzner > > > > On 2020-07-10 01:00, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > IMPORTANT NOTICE > > If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whiteli
Stop this before it goes any further (was Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave)
This is truly unfortunate. The current trend of whitewashing (and no I'm not afraid of using a word with "white" in it) away perceived slurs where there never were any is both troubling and counter-productive. I shouldn't have to post something like this here. We should all be adults and intelligent enough to understand these things. The fact that I have to is also troubling. I find myself shocked and amazed that these facts are not self evident. But since they clearly aren't, here they are: 1) White_ / Black_ are not now and nor ever were they racially motivated compound word prefixes. White and black have been and are references to light and dark, and in every language race and culture on the planet are used in compound words, phrases and sentences that evoke metaphors of good and bad. In this context the prefixes have never had anything to do with skin colour, and to change the words now casts aspersions on everyone who has ever used them. It's a backusation of prejudice that has just never been there. White hat / black hat. Light and dark. Good and bad. The terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" came into being because they are based on universally understood concepts of light and dark. You are not going to change the concepts of "light" and "dark" as metaphors for good and bad - the light and goodness of day and the frightening aspects of night are etched into our collective racial and likely genetic memories as good and bad from long before there ever were humans with different skin colours. Treating whitelist and blacklist as if they are skin-colour related is factually incorrect. 2) Master and slave are also not racially motivated. I don't have to recapitulate the history of the lasts two centuries, we all know it, but lets go further back... two millennia and further. Every conquering culture made slaves of a certain number of its prisoners and vanquished foes. Every colour and race in history has done this to every other colour and race. The words are not inherently racially charged. They are simple references to states. Further more, master and slave are proper and accurate words to use in many cases outside of a context of actual human slavery. Master denotes (variously) leadership, authority, skillfulness, and control. Slave denotes subservience and being controlled. You cannot erase the concepts of authority and subservience in their entirety because some people once assumed immoral authority over others. Changing the words you use will not change the underlying concept, and treating the words like they are racially charged now is, again, a backusation that is unwarranted and frankly an affront to all who have ever used them properly. Are we going to change the rank of master chief, stop having master cylinders, are going to stop mastering skills? I sincerely hope this madness doesn't spread that far. The words are not evil. The concepts of master and slave are not even evil. They are simple word tools for the ease of understanding concepts and relationships. Unless you intend to erase the whole concept of hierarchical relationships, the word choices used to denote them can't make them less racial because they never were. 3) The act of changing these words is, itself, actively self defeating. The irony of changing words that never were racial on the off chance they might be interpreted that way as a method of getting to a world where race doesn't matter is acute. Please tell me I am not the only one to see this terrible irony. We are all looking for that world where race and colour simply don't matter. Where the colour of one's skin and the culture one is from is of no more interest than any other fact or statistic about one's individual phenotypes or family history. Taking words and shining a spotlight on them as suddenly racial is a step away from that world of "it just doesn't matter". It is an affront to the (what I hopefully believe is the) majority of people of all races and cultures for whom colour simply doesn't matter. And it is making a racial issue where there was none before. This isn't a step in the right direction. This is not accomplishing that goal. This is the opposite of accomplishing that goal. This action is wrong because it cannot accomplish its stated goal. This is wrong because it is making racial what was not. This is wrong because the connotations you giving the words are factually and historically incorrect. This is wrong, and that should be self evident to every single one of you. Kurt Fitzner On 2020-07-10 01:00, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > IMPORTANT NOTICE > > If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to > welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist. > > https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826 > > The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to > Committed revision 1879456. > > If you are using trunk, there may be disru
