Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
On 7/25/11 7:49 AM, Markus Schaber wrote: Von: Les Mikesell [mailto:lesmikes...@gmail.com] On 7/25/11 3:22 AM, Stefan Sperling wrote: I am not aware of any existing developer who expressed interest in working on 'svn detach'. Just curious: what drove the original WC design where each subdirectory was inherently independent? And is this the same set of developers? My guess is that this Design was inherited from CVS. And AFAICS, the initial set of developers had some common members with the CVS developers, and it changed gradually, there was no revolution replacing all existing developers with new ones. The tradeoffs are sort of obvious, but it seems like a very drastic change to make with no option to maintain the old behavior. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com
Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/25/11 7:49 AM, Markus Schaber wrote: Von: Les Mikesell [mailto:lesmikes...@gmail.com] On 7/25/11 3:22 AM, Stefan Sperling wrote: I am not aware of any existing developer who expressed interest in working on 'svn detach'. Just curious: what drove the original WC design where each subdirectory was inherently independent? And is this the same set of developers? My guess is that this Design was inherited from CVS. And AFAICS, the initial set of developers had some common members with the CVS developers, and it changed gradually, there was no revolution replacing all existing developers with new ones. The tradeoffs are sort of obvious, but it seems like a very drastic change to make with no option to maintain the old behavior. In SVN 1.6 and earlier it is not like someone wrote code specifically to allow people to copy/move folders out of their WC. It was just something that fell out of the design. There are plenty of instances where people did not want this behavior, and for them it is now fixed. For example, in Eclipse this has always been a huge problem. Users would copy and paste a folder and this would silently bring the .svn folder with it which was not what was desired. I mention Eclipse simply because this is one of the only events where it does not provide a hook for plugins to get involved so the SVN plugins for Eclipse are not able to detect and fix this situation and it is perceived as a bug. The opinion was that if users really want to be able to easily detach folders from their working copy someone will step up with scripts and/or patches to add a feature to SVN to do it. -- Thanks Mark Phippard http://markphip.blogspot.com/
Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
On 7/25/2011 9:24 AM, Mark Phippard wrote: Von: Les Mikesell [mailto:lesmikes...@gmail.com mailto:lesmikes...@gmail.com] On 7/25/11 3:22 AM, Stefan Sperling wrote: I am not aware of any existing developer who expressed interest in working on 'svn detach'. Just curious: what drove the original WC design where each subdirectory was inherently independent? And is this the same set of developers? My guess is that this Design was inherited from CVS. And AFAICS, the initial set of developers had some common members with the CVS developers, and it changed gradually, there was no revolution replacing all existing developers with new ones. The tradeoffs are sort of obvious, but it seems like a very drastic change to make with no option to maintain the old behavior. In SVN 1.6 and earlier it is not like someone wrote code specifically to allow people to copy/move folders out of their WC. It was just something that fell out of the design. Agreed, but it is a logical design that falls out of the way subdirectories work and the way people use them. There are plenty of instances where people did not want this behavior, and for them it is now fixed. Agreed again. Although the change I would have preferred would have been an option to not keep a pristine copy at all for the circumstances where it doesn't work out well. For example, in Eclipse this has always been a huge problem. Users would copy and paste a folder and this would silently bring the .svn folder with it which was not what was desired. I mention Eclipse simply because this is one of the only events where it does not provide a hook for plugins to get involved so the SVN plugins for Eclipse are not able to detect and fix this situation and it is perceived as a bug. The opinion was that if users really want to be able to easily detach folders from their working copy someone will step up with scripts and/or patches to add a feature to SVN to do it. I'm not arguing that the change is bad or shouldn't have been done, just that it is a very surprising change in design philosophy, and projects that make surprising design changes without concern for existing use patterns make me nervous about what other surprises may be lurking in them. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com
Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:49:13AM -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: I'm not arguing that the change is bad or shouldn't have been done, just that it is a very surprising change in design philosophy, and projects that make surprising design changes without concern for existing use patterns And the fact that we carefully considered this case, discussed it, and came to a conclusion, does not comfort you? That we documented known workarounds for this uses case even though it has never been officially supported? It's not like we are being secretive about it or didn't care about users who use this feature. make me nervous about what other surprises may be lurking in them. Any other surprises we know about are documented in the release notes. If there are additional ones we don't know about them and they will hopefully be found during beta testing. If you find one, let us know :)
Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:13:43AM -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: On 7/25/2011 9:58 AM, Mark Phippard wrote: You agree but you are also missing or glossing over my point. When you copied that subdirectory you were not using a feature of SVN, you used the OS. SVN cannot provide an option on the OS copy command. And you seem to have missed the point that people understand and use OS level commands and expect them to work. I'm sure I didn't invent the idea of doing that, so it has almost certainly been promoted as an advantage of the design on this list and in usage tutorials if not in official documentation. As I've already mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, copying subdirs to create new working copies was never recommended in official documentation. Given how closely you follow the project, I am surprised you are surprised. I'm not surprised that the capability is not there in the new/different WC format. I'm surprised that there is no option to maintain currently-expected behavior in a release version. It is wrong to expect it. It doesn't even work properly in 1.6 in some cases (you cannot copy a locally added tree without its parent and expect it to work as an independent working copy -- not that such an operation would make sense). This release has taken over 2 years and the new WC design has not changed from the original proposal. If you go back to the lists you will see the ramifications of this change were being discussed even while we were still working on SVN 1.6 and the need for an svn detach was raised back then. Which makes it even more surprising that it was omitted. You cannot omit something which doesn't exist yet. The 'svn detach' subcommand has not been added because there was no time left to implement it in the 1.7.x release cycle. There are enough improvements in 1.7.x that make the upgrade worthwhile regardless.
Re: AW: copying subdirectories in subversion 1.7
I think you've made your point by now. However, 1.7 is close enough to being released that this feature will NOT be included in it. How do you suggest to proceed? Personally, I'd suggest documenting this in the 1.7 release notes and contributing the hands to work on this for 1.8. Les Mikesell wrote on Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:13:43 -0500: I'm surprised
