Re: Can you comment on this?
Hi, Seems like you've missed some pasta today. I urge you to get yourself some Italian pasta and after that come back and make some sensible arguments. Emmanuel On 12/21/06, Angelo Turetta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Emmanuel Sowah wrote: Sorry, but I like fair discussions. Oh, do you? I don't know who you are, and I've been subscribed to this mailing list for very few months, so maybe I'm wrong: but the only thing I've seen you do (more than once) is desperately trying to start some idiotic flame-war. That's quite the opposite of 'fair discussion'. This list is intended for Tapestry users peer discussion: if you don't use (or like) Tapestry, you are wasting your time here, and ours too. Angelo Turetta Modena - Italy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -Donald Knuth I don't make predictions. I never have, and I never will. -Tony Blair
Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Well, Mr. Mind, let me humbly say that I'm not trolling. I'm mentioning things which I know are of great concern to very many people. Having read the following post by you on July 28: ... the majority of people will expect some kind of backward compatibility between T4 and T5 and that expectation would be natural. Perhaps if T5 is renamed (e.g. 'Tapestries 1.0' or 'Lace 1.0' or sth else) then the expectation about backward compatibility will not be there? I know you and I are not very far from each other in certain important issues. Being a Tapestry commiter, I wish you could use your influence to discourage all these craziness going on with Tapestry of late. Namely, every major release equals radically re-inventing the wheel disregarding backward compatibility. And that decision made solely by one dictator who wouldn't listen to his users and community. Regards, F On 8/31/06, Mind Bridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howard sugested Geoff as a Tapestry committer entirely based on his work on Spindle. In addition Geoff specifically asked you NOT to hijack his name for your vendetta. Do the facts matter to you at all? Secondly, I presume you have written code that adds the T4 features to T3, while keeping it absolutely compatible. Is that correct? If this is not so, then your repeated comments are no longer constructive criticism, but trolls instead, aimed to further an agenda that has nothing to do with Tapestry at all. Interestingly, the very fact that you consider Tapestry important enough to warrant your attention means that it is a very good alternative to what you really care about and must be eliminated at all costs. Thank you, we should be honored that you think so highly of Tapestry! Francis Amanfo wrote: Henrik, Stop dreaming. If what you're saying is valid then we should have got Spindle for Tap 4 now. The fact of the matter is Howard just didn't listen to Geoff. With Howard's current opinion on tools, I don't think he would make a tool drive his fanatic and radical design decisions. My .02 cent. F On 8/30/06, hv @ Fashion Content [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the best thing is building on WST and Tap5, while Tap5 is developed. The amount of special tooling needed for Tap5 should be limited. Judging form Geoff's posts the main problem with Spindle for Tap4 is the large number of possible ways to configure an application. One of the goals for Tap5 is to simplify. So if we can start over on a new Spindle while Tap5 is still in its infancy, we can perhaps ensure that the simplicity is achieved from the perspective of tooling. Henrik Hugo Palma [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i en meddelelse news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Since Geoff decided to leave the Spindle project i've been thinking about the future of TapIDEA. As many of you know, TapIDEA is built on top of Spindle, which means No Spindle - No TapIDEA. There are several scenarios that can be put into account in the current situation, and after a long consideration here are my conclusions. Someone else picks up Spindle where Geoff left off: I honestly don't think this is going to happen. AFAIK Spindle was a one man project so no one else has the know how to quickly get into gear with the project. Some might think that that person could be me, and indeed i've become familiar with Spindle internals during the development of TapIDEA. But, there's the free time factor. I just wouldn't be able to find the time to do it. Still, if this scenario were to be become true, TapIDEA would live on. Spindle for T4 dies, a new project is born: Ok, so no Spindle and no TapIDEA for T4. What about T5 ? As Geoff as pointed out, T5 support is going to require an almost complete rewrite of Spindle. So, in this scenario someone would implement Spindle(or create a whole new project) for IDE support for T5, and TapIDEA would follow. I find that this is the scenario with the most chances of becoming reality. Spindle and TapIDEA die for good: Well, there's always the possibility that no one will volunteer to continue our efforts of bringing IDE support to Tapestry. In this scenario both Spindle and TapIDEA end their lives now. The TapIDEA project will be hibernating until one of these(or any other) scenarios become reality. I guess now it's up to the community to present their ideas about this. I hope that, together, we can give our contribution to making Tapestry IDE support a reality. Cheers, Hugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/TapIDEA-future%2C-post-%22Time-to-move-on%22-tf2179878
Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Yeah Jesse, I don't blame you. If I were the Yes Sir kind I would also say only Yes to my boss on anything without first analyzing myself if what he's doing makes sense. Fortunately I'm not that kind. I first think through my boss's request before going with him or her on issues. And in the environment that I live and work in, that is cherished very much. Better than following your boss blindly anywhere regardless of what. On the other hand, I may understand you. Being a commiter, I can imagine your sole goal may be to do cool things. But remember in the real world people are investing big bucks for results. To them, it's not about what Jesse finds cool and enjoy developing. They want results. Therefore in the real world if you tell people that during any major release they have to throw away their code base and invest another 100Ks' of dollars to be able to enjoy any new feature, all these because you had the appetite to do cool things, then to them you belong to the hobby group and no one would take your product seriously. I hope you would realize this fact someday. My .02 cent. Regards, F On 8/31/06, Jesse Kuhnert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But you forget that I'm in Howard's camp as well...So please when you mention facist regimes to include me as a leutenient at least. I would make the decision to support it again and again if given the chance. I mock you Mr. Amanfo. ~mock~ On 8/31/06, Francis Amanfo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, Mr. Mind, let me humbly say that I'm not trolling. I'm mentioning things which I know are of great concern to very many people. Having read the following post by you on July 28: ... the majority of people will expect some kind of backward compatibility between T4 and T5 and that expectation would be natural. Perhaps if T5 is renamed (e.g. 'Tapestries 1.0' or 'Lace 1.0' or sth else) then the expectation about backward compatibility will not be there? I know you and I are not very far from each other in certain important issues. Being a Tapestry commiter, I wish you could use your influence to discourage all these craziness going on with Tapestry of late. Namely, every major release equals radically re-inventing the wheel disregarding backward compatibility. And that decision made solely by one dictator who wouldn't listen to his users and community. Regards, F On 8/31/06, Mind Bridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howard sugested Geoff as a Tapestry committer entirely based on his work on Spindle. In addition Geoff specifically asked you NOT to hijack his name for your vendetta. Do the facts matter to you at all? Secondly, I presume you have written code that adds the T4 features to T3, while keeping it absolutely compatible. Is that correct? If this is not so, then your repeated comments are no longer constructive criticism, but trolls instead, aimed to further an agenda that has nothing to do with Tapestry at all. Interestingly, the very fact that you consider Tapestry important enough to warrant your attention means that it is a very good alternative to what you really care about and must be eliminated at all costs. Thank you, we should be honored that you think so highly of Tapestry! Francis Amanfo wrote: Henrik, Stop dreaming. If what you're saying is valid then we should have got Spindle for Tap 4 now. The fact of the matter is Howard just didn't listen to Geoff. With Howard's current opinion on tools, I don't think he would make a tool drive his fanatic and radical design decisions. My .02 cent. F On 8/30/06, hv @ Fashion Content [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the best thing is building on WST and Tap5, while Tap5 is developed. The amount of special tooling needed for Tap5 should be limited. Judging form Geoff's posts the main problem with Spindle for Tap4 is the large number of possible ways to configure an application. One of the goals for Tap5 is to simplify. So if we can start over on a new Spindle while Tap5 is still in its infancy, we can perhaps ensure that the simplicity is achieved from the perspective of tooling. Henrik Hugo Palma [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i en meddelelse news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Since Geoff decided to leave the Spindle project i've been thinking about the future of TapIDEA. As many of you know, TapIDEA is built on top of Spindle, which means No Spindle - No TapIDEA. There are several scenarios that can be put into account in the current situation, and after a long consideration here are my conclusions. Someone else picks up Spindle where Geoff left off: I honestly don't think this is going to happen. AFAIK Spindle was a one man project so no one else has the know how to quickly get into gear with the project. Some might think that that person could be me, and indeed i've become familiar with Spindle
Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Thanks Kranga for hiting the nail on the head. I however want to complete
your list of other exciting frameworks by citing GWT which is also a very
compelling framework.
Regards,
F
On 8/30/06, kranga [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While one can disagree about the actual productivity increase offered by
an
IDE plugin, you can't deny that it is a major plus for new adoptions. That
said, I think Tapestry is in a unique situation with the incompatibility
between T3, 4 and 5. We've developed some large applications using T3 and
given the direction Tap is heading in, are definitely going to evaluate
other frameworks when we think of upgrading (high barrier to upgrade
implies
lower barrier to exit the platform). As it is, I have no incentive to
adopt
T4 when T5 is going to be different. By the time T5 matures, there will be
several other frameworks (including Wicket, Echo2 and perhaps even .NET
2.0)
that will be exciting alternatives. At the end of the day, even though I
am
a technologist at heart, technology exists because of business and
businesses don't care about how cool your internal architecture is, they
care about not spending millions to just upgrade to the latest without a
proportional increase in business functionality or decrease in cost of
operations neither of which are the case here IMHO.
Now before you respond, please note this is my personal experience. I'm
sure
others will beg to disagree. I am making this post for those in a similar
situation aware of this being a shared experience (I know people have
posted
of how they vouched for Tapestry only to look not so favorable a few years
down the road). With the current trend future compatibility will always be
broken because there will always be the next great thing and so the
temptation to make T6 incompatible. T3 for all its worth gives me enough
so
I can weigh options and evaluate trends with leisure.
T3: Judgement day!
- Original Message -
From: andyhot [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tapestry users users@tapestry.apache.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
spindle-core (for Tap4) does this way in an IDE independent way.
I was taking a look at it 4 months ago, and I was able to do exactly
this.
For instance:
public static void main(String[] args) {
TapestryCore core = new TapestryCore(new TestLogger(),
new LocalCoreListeners(), new LocalPreferenceSource());
ITapestryProject project = new LocalProject();
LocalBuild build = new LocalBuild(project);
build.build(false, new HashMap());
System.out.println(build.problemPersister);
}
All Local* classes where my implementations for the IDE-agnostic
interfaces
that spindle-core provides.
When i first tried it, it did output a few non errors (i think it didn't
understand default-value)
so I don't know what (other) errors currently exist.
I can give the latest version a try in a big project and see how it
goes.
Konstantin Ignatyev wrote:
Agreed, but that could be done as build time 'check'
step. Something like JSP compiler task
http://ant.apache.org/manual/OptionalTasks/jspc.html
I think it could be easier to create than full IDE
plugin and such core service might be a very good
foundation for people willing to build IDE specific UI
layer atop of it.
--- DJ Gredler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I mostly agree with you that current tooling gets us
pretty far, but there's
a lot to be said for turning the most frequent
runtime errors into
compile-time errors, something that often requires
special Tapestry
awareness.
On 8/29/06, Konstantin Ignatyev
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My point is that in case of Tapestry/Wicket there
is
no need to worry much about tools, because
existing
ones provide pretty good environment to work
within.
Therefore focus on APIs and conventions seems very
reasonable to me.
-
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--
Andreas Andreou - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://andyhot.di.uoa.gr
Tapestry / Tacos developer
Open Source / J2EE Consulting
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Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Henrik, Stop dreaming. If what you're saying is valid then we should have got Spindle for Tap 4 now. The fact of the matter is Howard just didn't listen to Geoff. With Howard's current opinion on tools, I don't think he would make a tool drive his fanatic and radical design decisions. My .02 cent. F On 8/30/06, hv @ Fashion Content [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the best thing is building on WST and Tap5, while Tap5 is developed. The amount of special tooling needed for Tap5 should be limited. Judging form Geoff's posts the main problem with Spindle for Tap4 is the large number of possible ways to configure an application. One of the goals for Tap5 is to simplify. So if we can start over on a new Spindle while Tap5 is still in its infancy, we can perhaps ensure that the simplicity is achieved from the perspective of tooling. Henrik Hugo Palma [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i en meddelelse news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Since Geoff decided to leave the Spindle project i've been thinking about the future of TapIDEA. As many of you know, TapIDEA is built on top of Spindle, which means No Spindle - No TapIDEA. There are several scenarios that can be put into account in the current situation, and after a long consideration here are my conclusions. Someone else picks up Spindle where Geoff left off: I honestly don't think this is going to happen. AFAIK Spindle was a one man project so no one else has the know how to quickly get into gear with the project. Some might think that that person could be me, and indeed i've become familiar with Spindle internals during the development of TapIDEA. But, there's the free time factor. I just wouldn't be able to find the time to do it. Still, if this scenario were to be become true, TapIDEA would live on. Spindle for T4 dies, a new project is born: Ok, so no Spindle and no TapIDEA for T4. What about T5 ? As Geoff as pointed out, T5 support is going to require an almost complete rewrite of Spindle. So, in this scenario someone would implement Spindle(or create a whole new project) for IDE support for T5, and TapIDEA would follow. I find that this is the scenario with the most chances of becoming reality. Spindle and TapIDEA die for good: Well, there's always the possibility that no one will volunteer to continue our efforts of bringing IDE support to Tapestry. In this scenario both Spindle and TapIDEA end their lives now. The TapIDEA project will be hibernating until one of these(or any other) scenarios become reality. I guess now it's up to the community to present their ideas about this. I hope that, together, we can give our contribution to making Tapestry IDE support a reality. Cheers, Hugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Guys, Allow me to quote from Howard's blog at http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4110180postID=115379415681750974 The quote goes: As a reminder: Rails, the biggest success story I can name, has no tooling at all. Tooling is no replacement for productivity. First of all, I question his use of biggest success story. In our industry, big success is measured by huge corporate adoption and not about who can hype better. Looking at the current levels of adoption, can you sincerely claim that Rails is a big success story? I would agree with you if your claim were based on hype levels. But anyway, that's outside the scope of this group. From such comments I can see why Tapestry would NEVER go mainstream. Howard just don't get it. Howard, how many people are using Rails in the industry? Ralatively speaking, very few. If your ambition is to only target such small numbers of adoption, then you are surely on the right path. But let me wake you up by saying that Rails is only at the beginning of a long journey. By the time it goes near to even the current level of adoption of Tapestry people would demand an IDE. And I know the Rails people would listen and deliver. They may be less stubborn. And to those of you who are planning to invest your precious time to develop an IDE for Tapestry, watch out. With his current attitude and opinion on IDEs' I will assure you that Howard won't take into consideration during work on another major release. By the time you're stabilizing your code base for Tap 5 IDE, Howard would come up with Tap 6 and again with another radical changes to the extent that the only way to go forward would be to throw away your IDE code and start afresh with a new development for an IDE that would work with Tap 6. And then Tap 7 would come. Fill in the rest for me. In summary, before you commit your energy and time to any IDE development, first convince Howard to change his mind on IDEs. Otherwise I would say, go do something else with your precious time, like Geoffery is having a great time now with GWT ;-). My .02 cents. F On 8/28/06, Hugo Palma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since Geoff decided to leave the Spindle project i've been thinking about the future of TapIDEA. As many of you know, TapIDEA is built on top of Spindle, which means No Spindle - No TapIDEA. There are several scenarios that can be put into account in the current situation, and after a long consideration here are my conclusions. Someone else picks up Spindle where Geoff left off: I honestly don't think this is going to happen. AFAIK Spindle was a one man project so no one else has the know how to quickly get into gear with the project. Some might think that that person could be me, and indeed i've become familiar with Spindle internals during the development of TapIDEA. But, there's the free time factor. I just wouldn't be able to find the time to do it. Still, if this scenario were to be become true, TapIDEA would live on. Spindle for T4 dies, a new project is born: Ok, so no Spindle and no TapIDEA for T4. What about T5 ? As Geoff as pointed out, T5 support is going to require an almost complete rewrite of Spindle. So, in this scenario someone would implement Spindle(or create a whole new project) for IDE support for T5, and TapIDEA would follow. I find that this is the scenario with the most chances of becoming reality. Spindle and TapIDEA die for good: Well, there's always the possibility that no one will volunteer to continue our efforts of bringing IDE support to Tapestry. In this scenario both Spindle and TapIDEA end their lives now. The TapIDEA project will be hibernating until one of these(or any other) scenarios become reality. I guess now it's up to the community to present their ideas about this. I hope that, together, we can give our contribution to making Tapestry IDE support a reality. Cheers, Hugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TapIDEA future, post Time to move on
Konstantin, I don't agree completely with you on his one. I must say that I do my Tapestry development in Eclipse without Tapestry IDE and I'm happy. However I know a lot of junior to middle level developers who think they would be more productive with a Tap IDE. So it's not only a matter of opinion but expertise. My .02 cent. F On 8/29/06, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is all matter of opinion but I would say that IDE like IntelliJ + DreamWeaver out of box provide enought features to be productive with Tapestry. Certain Tapestry specific features would be nice to have but they are not critical IMO. --- Francis Amanfo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys, Allow me to quote from Howard's blog at http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4110180postID=115379415681750974 The quote goes: As a reminder: Rails, the biggest success story I can name, has no tooling at all. Tooling is no replacement for productivity. . IDEs' I will assure you that Howard won't take into consideration during work on another major release. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tapestry 5 Discussions
... And that's why Geoff Longman dropped off the boat to pursue something more innovative (GWT) having a solid backing by a reputable company. Not with by a sole Saddam-like dictator like Howard. He pretends he's democratic by throwing his ideas under the umbrella Discuss but meanwhile he's made up his mind already and won't thus listen to anyone. He didn't listen to Geoff that's why there's no Spindle for Tap 4. Now he claims on his blog that tooling is not important. Howard, maybe not to you, but let me educate you that there is a vast number of people out there who think otherwise. It's time you stop imposing your opinions on people. Remember, Wicket has stolen a market share from Tapestry. Now there is GWT. Just wait until GWT goes out of beta. I promiss you the following statements would hold in the very near future: Tapestry = a+b; Wicket = Tapestry - a; GWT = Tapestry - b; Therefore Tapestry = 0. This would be the result by the time the incompatible and crazy Tap 5.0 is released. And I would hand you a tissue paper to wipe off your hot tears. Regards, F On 7/28/06, James Carman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howard, I know you're very innovative and all, but doesn't this really sound somewhat crazy to you? If you really want Tapestry to gain acceptance, then backward compatibility is a big issue. I jumped into the Tapestry world with the 4.0 release and I'm really enjoying it, but if switching to 5.xis going to be VERY difficult, then I don't know if I'll ever upgrade. Tapestry is definitely (IMHO) very superior to the standard JSF, but if it keeps becoming a moving target, then it will never gain market acceptance. The big wigs will win out because they support a standard. If Tapestry has the reputation of becoming the consultant's framework (as has been said in the past) because it requires so much work to upgrade, then it's going to suffer. It's not that I disagree with the direction you're heading. It's that I don't know whether or not changing paradigms so drastically is a good idea for the health of the product or brand. I agree so far with what you're doing. I don't like the fact that you're switching from HiveMind to TapIoCa (that's my little nickname for the Tapestry IoC container), but if you don't want to be tied to HiveMind or don't want to be constrained by the release schedule, then I understand (although you're a big part of the HiveMind community and we can easily accommodate any changes you could need IMHO). Anyway, this is your baby, but if you want to gain some market share, then you should really listen to your users. Tapestry is starting to get a bad reputation for not supporting backward compatibility. Again, I think the direction you're heading is a good one, if you don't have to consider your current users, but we don't have that luxury. -Original Message- From: Howard Lewis Ship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:09 PM To: Tapestry development Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Discussions Right now its impossible because there's nothing to convert to :-) It will be *VERY* difficult. This isn't a slap of new paint. Basic paradigms are shifting around in a major way. It would be comparable, or perhaps even larger than, converting between JSF and Tapestry 4. Possibly on the order of converting from Struts to Tapestry 4. On 7/27/06, Norbert Sándor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that it's far away, but how easy/difficult will it be to convert an application from 4 to 5? Regards, Norbi - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Howard M. Lewis Ship TWD Consulting, Inc. Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry Creator, Apache HiveMind Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support and project work. http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Spindle - refererences unknown component on startup
Hi Dan, Don't expect a quick response from Geoff on this one anytime soon because he's currently swiming and enjoying himself in the new warm and nice GWT swiming pool ;-) F On 5/24/06, Daniel M Garland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all When I load a particular tapestry project in Eclipse, spindle will flag a component as an unknown component. If I amend the file, say by adding a whitespace somewhere and saving it again, the problem goes away. I don't know if this a bug, or if anyone has experienced this before? I'm on eclipse 3.1 and spindle 3.2.14. TIA -- Dan Garland [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +44 (0) 207 803 1947 icq: 120963437 aim: dmgarland1767 __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
