Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread Christopher Schultz

John,

On 11/2/22 14:28, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:

On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

If you are bemoaning the Linux kernel dropping support for i486, you
might want to read about /why/ they are doing it.



Honestly I'm not much of a bomoaner.  I am pretty conservative when it
comes to throwing away useful stuff (as you can imagine).  Thanks for
the replies and have a good one!  :)


It's worth noting that the Linux kernel will still run on those 
machines. You just won't be able to run kernel 6.2.x (I think) on them. 
Many distros will continue to provide older kernels for a good long time 
(I'm looking at /you/, Debian).


Note that you can't run Windows 11 on a 486, either.

-chris


On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

John,

On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:

Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
is still out there and floating around?


You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
scrapped?

I think that would be practically impossible.

I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
with it again.


Big picture:
It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
re-established.


Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
electricity.

There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:

"At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds


I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
software if needed.

Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
commit. No problem ;)

-chris


On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

Shawn,

On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:

The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.


I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.

-chris

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread John Dale (DB2DOM)
On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
> John,
>
> On 11/2/22 12:41, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:
>  >
>  > [snip]
>  >
>> I love some of the newer hardware, too, but even Raspberry Pi is not
>> yet 64 bit, is it?
>
> It depends on which one. The Wikipedia article on RPi lists 4 different
> units, 3 of which are 64-bit.
>
>  > [snip]
>  >
>> Can an old 32 bit machine do modern encryption for telecommunications?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Why are we still paying so much for phone service?
>
> Because we (presumably; I do) live in the US. Elsewhere in the world,
> it's much better. We are being charged high rates simply because we fail
> to refuse to do so.
>
>> Why aren't our high school grads capable of re-soldering components
>> from these old boards and assembling them into something better and
>> rewriting the software?
>
> Some of them are, but most of them are not. It takes knowledge and skill
> and desire. Soldering boards isn't on the top-ten list of most
> graduating high-school seniors.
>
> If you are bemoaning the Linux kernel dropping support for i486, you
> might want to read about /why/ they are doing it.


Honestly I'm not much of a bomoaner.  I am pretty conservative when it
comes to throwing away useful stuff (as you can imagine).  Thanks for
the replies and have a good one!  :)

>
> -chris
>
>> On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
>>> John,
>>>
>>> On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:
 Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
 is still out there and floating around?
>>>
>>> You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
>>> scrapped?
>>>
>>> I think that would be practically impossible.
>>>
>>> I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
>>> anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
>>> probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
>>> someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
>>> with it again.
>>>
 Big picture:
 It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
 I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
 re-established.
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
>>> architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
>>> supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
>>> services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
>>> sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
>>> than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
>>> electricity.
>>>
>>> There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:
>>>
>>> "At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
>>> run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds
>>>
 I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
 DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
 software if needed.
>>> Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
>>> commit. No problem ;)
>>>
>>> -chris
>>>
 On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
> Shawn,
>
> On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:
>> The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.
>
> I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
> advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.
>
> -chris
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
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>
>

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>>>
>>
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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread Christopher Schultz

John,

On 11/2/22 12:41, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>

I love some of the newer hardware, too, but even Raspberry Pi is not
yet 64 bit, is it?


It depends on which one. The Wikipedia article on RPi lists 4 different 
units, 3 of which are 64-bit.


> [snip]
>

Can an old 32 bit machine do modern encryption for telecommunications?


Yes.


Why are we still paying so much for phone service?


Because we (presumably; I do) live in the US. Elsewhere in the world, 
it's much better. We are being charged high rates simply because we fail 
to refuse to do so.



Why aren't our high school grads capable of re-soldering components
from these old boards and assembling them into something better and
rewriting the software?


Some of them are, but most of them are not. It takes knowledge and skill 
and desire. Soldering boards isn't on the top-ten list of most 
graduating high-school seniors.


If you are bemoaning the Linux kernel dropping support for i486, you 
might want to read about /why/ they are doing it.


-chris


On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

John,

On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:

Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
is still out there and floating around?


You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
scrapped?

I think that would be practically impossible.

I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
with it again.


Big picture:
It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
re-established.


Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
electricity.

There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:

"At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds


I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
software if needed.

Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
commit. No problem ;)

-chris


On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

Shawn,

On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:

The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.


I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.

-chris

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread John Dale (DB2DOM)
Excellent!

My confusion was due to the slow-coming 64 bit OS release.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm using the 64 bit version on most of my devices.

John


On 11/2/22, Felix Schumacher  wrote:
>
> Am 02.11.22 um 17:41 schrieb John Dale (DB2DOM):
>> Chris enters the room, gazes upon seven orcs, draws his sword, and
>> opens the can of worms.
>>
>> Ooooh .. Philosophy.
>>
>> I love philosophy.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Good philosophy starts with good questions.
>>
>> I love some of the newer hardware, too, but even Raspberry Pi is not
>> yet 64 bit, is it?
> Raspberry Pi is 64 Bit, (maybe not all of them), I am running an 64 Bit
> OS on an Raspberry Pi 4.
>> The dell computer that I'm working with at the moment is my case study
>> - it's not slow at all.
>
> If it's fast enough and reliable enough for you, I think you can still
> go (for a long time) with an JDK 8 and Tomcat 9.x. If I remember right,
> we settled to support Tomcat 9.x for quite a while and Tomcat has no
> requirements of its own to use 64 Bit.
>
> Felix
>
>>
>> Am I alone in thinking that our technology is trying to leave humanity
>> behind before it is truly not useful anymore?
>>
>> Unlike HAM radio operators, are you one of those crazy people who
>> think we're somehow safe from disaster on planet Earth?
>>
>> I think this universe has much more in store for us.  I also like to
>> wring out every last bit of use from stuff.  I also grind old
>> screwdrivers that are "worn-out".
>>
>> I'll feel more comfortable when our high school grads understand EcE
>> and computer manufacturing upon graduation.
>>
>> If we need faster computers to replace humans, what's the point?
>>
>> Video games?  Meta?  AI?
>>
>> What about baseball, Frisbee, stage productions, and Human Intelligence?
>>
>> Can an old 32 bit machine do modern encryption for telecommunications?
>>
>> Why are we still paying so much for phone service?
>>
>> Why aren't our high school grads capable of re-soldering components
>> from these old boards and assembling them into something better and
>> rewriting the software?
>>
>> So, I think it's a worthwhile discussion that I know many thought was
>> settled as they gaze across fully stocked Wal Mart computer
>> departments and newegg query results.
>>
>> If for no other reason, shouldn't we pry the specs out of the hands of
>> Dell and others to understand and reconfigure and reprogam their
>> machines?  Or, are they afraid of what we'll discover?
>>
>> My working hypothesis is that if we remove what was put in there to do
>> things we don't know about, these machines will speed-up considerably.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
>>> John,
>>>
>>> On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:
 Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
 is still out there and floating around?
>>> You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
>>> scrapped?
>>>
>>> I think that would be practically impossible.
>>>
>>> I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
>>> anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
>>> probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
>>> someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
>>> with it again.
>>>
 Big picture:
 It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
 I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
 re-established.
>>> Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
>>> architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
>>> supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
>>> services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
>>> sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
>>> than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
>>> electricity.
>>>
>>> There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:
>>>
>>> "At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
>>> run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds
>>>
 I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
 DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
 software if needed.
>>> Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
>>> commit. No problem ;)
>>>
>>> -chris
>>>
 On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
> Shawn,
>
> On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:
>> The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.
> I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
> advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.
>
> -chris
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional command

Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread Felix Schumacher


Am 02.11.22 um 17:41 schrieb John Dale (DB2DOM):

Chris enters the room, gazes upon seven orcs, draws his sword, and
opens the can of worms.

Ooooh .. Philosophy.

I love philosophy.

:)

Good philosophy starts with good questions.

I love some of the newer hardware, too, but even Raspberry Pi is not
yet 64 bit, is it?
Raspberry Pi is 64 Bit, (maybe not all of them), I am running an 64 Bit 
OS on an Raspberry Pi 4.

The dell computer that I'm working with at the moment is my case study
- it's not slow at all.


If it's fast enough and reliable enough for you, I think you can still 
go (for a long time) with an JDK 8 and Tomcat 9.x. If I remember right, 
we settled to support Tomcat 9.x for quite a while and Tomcat has no 
requirements of its own to use 64 Bit.


Felix



Am I alone in thinking that our technology is trying to leave humanity
behind before it is truly not useful anymore?

Unlike HAM radio operators, are you one of those crazy people who
think we're somehow safe from disaster on planet Earth?

I think this universe has much more in store for us.  I also like to
wring out every last bit of use from stuff.  I also grind old
screwdrivers that are "worn-out".

I'll feel more comfortable when our high school grads understand EcE
and computer manufacturing upon graduation.

If we need faster computers to replace humans, what's the point?

Video games?  Meta?  AI?

What about baseball, Frisbee, stage productions, and Human Intelligence?

Can an old 32 bit machine do modern encryption for telecommunications?

Why are we still paying so much for phone service?

Why aren't our high school grads capable of re-soldering components
from these old boards and assembling them into something better and
rewriting the software?

So, I think it's a worthwhile discussion that I know many thought was
settled as they gaze across fully stocked Wal Mart computer
departments and newegg query results.

If for no other reason, shouldn't we pry the specs out of the hands of
Dell and others to understand and reconfigure and reprogam their
machines?  Or, are they afraid of what we'll discover?

My working hypothesis is that if we remove what was put in there to do
things we don't know about, these machines will speed-up considerably.

:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip




On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

John,

On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:

Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
is still out there and floating around?

You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
scrapped?

I think that would be practically impossible.

I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
with it again.


Big picture:
It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
re-established.

Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
electricity.

There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:

"At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds


I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
software if needed.

Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
commit. No problem ;)

-chris


On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

Shawn,

On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:

The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.

I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.

-chris

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread John Dale (DB2DOM)
Chris enters the room, gazes upon seven orcs, draws his sword, and
opens the can of worms.

Ooooh .. Philosophy.

I love philosophy.

:)

Good philosophy starts with good questions.

I love some of the newer hardware, too, but even Raspberry Pi is not
yet 64 bit, is it?

The dell computer that I'm working with at the moment is my case study
- it's not slow at all.

Am I alone in thinking that our technology is trying to leave humanity
behind before it is truly not useful anymore?

Unlike HAM radio operators, are you one of those crazy people who
think we're somehow safe from disaster on planet Earth?

I think this universe has much more in store for us.  I also like to
wring out every last bit of use from stuff.  I also grind old
screwdrivers that are "worn-out".

I'll feel more comfortable when our high school grads understand EcE
and computer manufacturing upon graduation.

If we need faster computers to replace humans, what's the point?

Video games?  Meta?  AI?

What about baseball, Frisbee, stage productions, and Human Intelligence?

Can an old 32 bit machine do modern encryption for telecommunications?

Why are we still paying so much for phone service?

Why aren't our high school grads capable of re-soldering components
from these old boards and assembling them into something better and
rewriting the software?

So, I think it's a worthwhile discussion that I know many thought was
settled as they gaze across fully stocked Wal Mart computer
departments and newegg query results.

If for no other reason, shouldn't we pry the specs out of the hands of
Dell and others to understand and reconfigure and reprogam their
machines?  Or, are they afraid of what we'll discover?

My working hypothesis is that if we remove what was put in there to do
things we don't know about, these machines will speed-up considerably.

:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip




On 11/2/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
> John,
>
> On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:
>> Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
>> is still out there and floating around?
>
> You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never
> scrapped?
>
> I think that would be practically impossible.
>
> I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by
> anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are
> probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when
> someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing
> with it again.
>
>> Big picture:
>> It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
>> I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
>> re-established.
>
> Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486
> architecture because if new machines aren't available due to
> supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our
> services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd
> sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications
> than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less
> electricity.
>
> There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:
>
> "At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well
> run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds
>
>> I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
>> DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
>> software if needed.
> Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to
> commit. No problem ;)
>
> -chris
>
>> On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
>>> Shawn,
>>>
>>> On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:
 The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.
>>>
>>> I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
>>> advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.
>>>
>>> -chris
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
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>>
>
> -
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>
>

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-11-02 Thread Christopher Schultz

John,

On 10/27/22 11:03, John Dale (DB2DOM) wrote:

Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
is still out there and floating around?


You mean like a list of all pieced of hardware ever sold and never scrapped?

I think that would be practically impossible.

I have a Palm 7 on a box in my office that has never been inventoried by 
anybody and could possibly be plugged back in at any moment. There are 
probably warehouses of stuff like what worldwide and you never know when 
someone is going to plug-in any one of those devices and start playing 
with it again.



Big picture:
It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
re-established.


Are you suggesting that Linux should not drop support for i486 
architecture because if new machines aren't available due to 
supply-chain issues, we might all have to re-rack 486s to keep our 
services running? That sounds insane. We would simply do without. I'd 
sooner put my old mobile phones into service supporting my applications 
than an old i486. They are more powerful and reliable, and use less 
electricity.


There's a reason Linus wants to kill i486 support:

"At some point, people have them as museum pieces. They might as well 
run museum kernels." - Linus Torvalds



I like to build distilled portable stuff for that reason.  I think
DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all of our favorite
software if needed.
Great. I'm sure the transactions will only take a couple of seconds to 
commit. No problem ;)


-chris


On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:

Shawn,

On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:

The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.


I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.

-chris

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-10-27 Thread John Dale (DB2DOM)
Does anyone know of a report detailing how much of this older hardware
is still out there and floating around?

Big picture:
It's a lot of computer power in the event manufacturing hits a hiccup,
I wouldn't want to be caught flat-footed until it could be
re-established.  I like to build distilled portable stuff for that
reason.  I think DB2DOM could run on some really old versions of all
of our favorite software if needed.



On 10/26/22, Christopher Schultz  wrote:
> Shawn,
>
> On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:
>> The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.
>
> I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively
> advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.
>
> -chris
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

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Re: [OT] Compatibility, 32 bit ..

2022-10-26 Thread Christopher Schultz

Shawn,

On 10/26/22 00:14, Shawn Heisey wrote:

The Linux kernel dropped support for 386 and 486 CPUs some time ago.


I was reading about this today, actually. Linux is currently actively 
advocating for dropping 486 support, so it must still be in there.


-chris

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