Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-26 Thread Aryeh Friedman
On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 1:57 PM Christopher Schultz
 wrote:
>
> Aryeh,
>
> On 1/20/24 4:19 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> > Top posting since my comments are not 100% relevant to the issue in
> > the thread (i.e. related but not in detail).
> >
> > It would be nice if Tomcat published EOL's since there are
> > applications (like HIPAA webapps [I do remote cardiac monitoring])
> > that are automatically declared to be insecure if the underlying
> > platform has any EOL'ed components (this why just upgraded from 9.0.35
> > to 9.0.85) and in some cases (like HIPAA) have goverment imposed fines
> > if there is a breach due to using EOL'ed components.   Thus there is a
> > need for known/published EOL dates in such apps.
>
> What makes you think that we don't publish EOLs?
>
> There is an EOL date for Tomcat 8.5. There is no EOL date for Tomcat 9
> (yet). Shall we just pick a date far into the future and say "we know
> that 3 years from now, you are out of luck"? Or should we want until we
> know what the data is going to be and /then/ publish it?
>
> We have an (unwritten) policy to give 1 year of notice for any EOL
> announcement. We aren't going to say "oh BTW this is the last release
> YOLO" and walk away.
>
> The announcement for 8.5's EOL date (2024-03-31) was made on 2022-12-13,
> over a year in advance.
>
> The announcement for 8.0's EOL date (2018-06-30) was made on 2017-06-30,
> exactly a year in advance.
>
> The announcement for 7.0's EOL date (2021-03-31) was made on 2020-03-02,
> a year in advance.
>
> The announcement for 6.0's EOL date (2016-12-31) was made on 2015-06-03,
> 18 months in advance. There were security updates made to Tomcat 6 which
> extended *beyond* that EOL date, so we even supported it *after* the
> announced EOL date.
>
> You will have plenty of notice.

Thanks for clarifying that.

>
> HIPAA does not have a fine structure for use of out-of-date software. If
> you suffer a breach and an investigation reveals that a CE or BA was
> using software with known, unpatched vulnerabilites, *that's* what gets
> you into trouble.

Not completely true while "officially" your correct in reality OCR
(Office of Civil Rights of HHS) has a number of times said that EOL'ed
is tell-tell sign of not meeting the security rule:

https://www.proactive-info.com/blog/how-hipaa-compliance-relates-to-end-of-life

If you wish I can send you privately a sanitized version of report we
wrote for our client that details the implications of EOL and our
current system (which we just did a whole sale upgrade specifically
for HIPAA reasons and was triggered by a CVE posted on this list
[among a few other minor CVE's in other system components]).



-- 
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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-26 Thread Christopher Schultz

Aryeh,

On 1/20/24 4:19 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote:

Top posting since my comments are not 100% relevant to the issue in
the thread (i.e. related but not in detail).

It would be nice if Tomcat published EOL's since there are
applications (like HIPAA webapps [I do remote cardiac monitoring])
that are automatically declared to be insecure if the underlying
platform has any EOL'ed components (this why just upgraded from 9.0.35
to 9.0.85) and in some cases (like HIPAA) have goverment imposed fines
if there is a breach due to using EOL'ed components.   Thus there is a
need for known/published EOL dates in such apps.


What makes you think that we don't publish EOLs?

There is an EOL date for Tomcat 8.5. There is no EOL date for Tomcat 9 
(yet). Shall we just pick a date far into the future and say "we know 
that 3 years from now, you are out of luck"? Or should we want until we 
know what the data is going to be and /then/ publish it?


We have an (unwritten) policy to give 1 year of notice for any EOL 
announcement. We aren't going to say "oh BTW this is the last release 
YOLO" and walk away.


The announcement for 8.5's EOL date (2024-03-31) was made on 2022-12-13, 
over a year in advance.


The announcement for 8.0's EOL date (2018-06-30) was made on 2017-06-30, 
exactly a year in advance.


The announcement for 7.0's EOL date (2021-03-31) was made on 2020-03-02, 
a year in advance.


The announcement for 6.0's EOL date (2016-12-31) was made on 2015-06-03, 
18 months in advance. There were security updates made to Tomcat 6 which 
extended *beyond* that EOL date, so we even supported it *after* the 
announced EOL date.


You will have plenty of notice.

Plus if you are on Tomcat 9, you can /already upgrade to Tomcat 10 or 
11/ neither of which have been EOL'd and are unlikely to experience such 
things until long after Tomcat 9 goes EOL.


If you want to avoid being caught up by Tomcat 9's EOL, then upgrade in 
advance.


I would like to mention that no Tomcat 9 releases have reached EOL. That 
means that your 9.0.35 version had not reached any EOL per se. There 
have been some security fixes applied in the intervening months which 
may be important for your environment, but this team does not provide 
support for specific releases.


HIPAA does not have a fine structure for use of out-of-date software. If 
you suffer a breach and an investigation reveals that a CE or BA was 
using software with known, unpatched vulnerabilites, *that's* what gets 
you into trouble.


-chris


On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 6:58 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:


On 19/01/2024 19:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:

@Mark Thomas,

Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache Tomcat 9.0.X 
is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?


I'd say 2027 is a reasonable estimate of the likely EOL date for 9.0.x
but I'm not going to provide any guarantees on that.

The Tomcat community has committed to providing at least 12 months
notice of EOL of any major version.

More detail in the thread listed below against 9.0.x.

If long term support is your concern then I'd consider looking at Tomcat
10.1.x. It does require Java 11 (Tomcat 9.0.x requires Java 8) but it
will get you an additional ~3 years support.

I will take the opportunity to point out that what you get with Tomcat
is already pretty good.

- major versions support for ~10 years including new features, bug
fixes and security fixes

- monthly releases throughout that ~10 year period (with the odd gap)

- all reproducible bugs reported fixed in the next release (this is the
one where Tomcat really stands out)

- you can actually talk to the folks the maintain the code


If you really need 9.0.x and really need guarantees on dates then there
are commercial organizations that will sell you that service. Just make
sure you pick one that has the skills and in-depth Tomcat knowledge
necessary to deliver that support.

Mark





Thanks.



On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:



On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:

https://endoflife.date/tomcat

Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:

Hello,

Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?


See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html


 1.  8.5.X


EOL 31 March 2024


 2.  9.0.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0


 3.  10.0.X


Already EOL as of 31 October 2022


 4.  10.1.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0

Mark

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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-20 Thread Aryeh Friedman
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:29 AM Simon Matter  wrote:
>
> > Top posting since my comments are not 100% relevant to the issue in
> > the thread (i.e. related but not in detail).
> >
> > It would be nice if Tomcat published EOL's since there are
> > applications (like HIPAA webapps [I do remote cardiac monitoring])
> > that are automatically declared to be insecure if the underlying
> > platform has any EOL'ed components (this why just upgraded from 9.0.35
> > to 9.0.85) and in some cases (like HIPAA) have goverment imposed fines
> > if there is a breach due to using EOL'ed components.   Thus there is a
> > need for known/published EOL dates in such apps.
>
> Isn't it so that for every major version, like 9.0, all but the latest
> should be considered EOL? Like for now, 9.0.85 is supported and 9.0.84 and
> older should be considered EOL.

In large 24/7/365 production environments (especially life critical
ones) it is often hard to do a migration and requires significant
human labor to do.   This is recognized by vendors when they publish
EOL dates, for example OpenJDK 8 (LTS) is supported through 2030
(https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-se-support-roadmap.html).
  Nonetheless we also upgraded to OpenJDK21 at the same time we
upgraded tomcat [also upgraded the OS from FreeBSD 12 to FreeBSD 14]
and it required about 500 source code fixes to a 100+k LOC project to
make it compile correctly (we have a no warning policy and thus
-Werror turned on).   Luckily almost all the fixes were trivial but
one or two were not and required several hours to plan how to fix them
and another few days to do so (good example is significant change in
behaviour in File.renameTo() without documentation [see another
thread] thus we had to rewrite an entire low level I/O class to use
Files.move() instead of File.renameTo() and other good example if new
URL(String url) is now deprecated and needed to be rewritten as new
URI(url).toURL() and put inside a totally different try catch block).


-- 
Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org

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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-20 Thread Simon Matter
> Top posting since my comments are not 100% relevant to the issue in
> the thread (i.e. related but not in detail).
>
> It would be nice if Tomcat published EOL's since there are
> applications (like HIPAA webapps [I do remote cardiac monitoring])
> that are automatically declared to be insecure if the underlying
> platform has any EOL'ed components (this why just upgraded from 9.0.35
> to 9.0.85) and in some cases (like HIPAA) have goverment imposed fines
> if there is a breach due to using EOL'ed components.   Thus there is a
> need for known/published EOL dates in such apps.

Isn't it so that for every major version, like 9.0, all but the latest
should be considered EOL? Like for now, 9.0.85 is supported and 9.0.84 and
older should be considered EOL.

Simon

>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 6:58 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:
>>
>> On 19/01/2024 19:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:
>> > @Mark Thomas,
>> >
>> > Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache
>> Tomcat 9.0.X is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?
>>
>> I'd say 2027 is a reasonable estimate of the likely EOL date for 9.0.x
>> but I'm not going to provide any guarantees on that.
>>
>> The Tomcat community has committed to providing at least 12 months
>> notice of EOL of any major version.
>>
>> More detail in the thread listed below against 9.0.x.
>>
>> If long term support is your concern then I'd consider looking at Tomcat
>> 10.1.x. It does require Java 11 (Tomcat 9.0.x requires Java 8) but it
>> will get you an additional ~3 years support.
>>
>> I will take the opportunity to point out that what you get with Tomcat
>> is already pretty good.
>>
>> - major versions support for ~10 years including new features, bug
>>fixes and security fixes
>>
>> - monthly releases throughout that ~10 year period (with the odd gap)
>>
>> - all reproducible bugs reported fixed in the next release (this is the
>>one where Tomcat really stands out)
>>
>> - you can actually talk to the folks the maintain the code
>>
>>
>> If you really need 9.0.x and really need guarantees on dates then there
>> are commercial organizations that will sell you that service. Just make
>> sure you pick one that has the skills and in-depth Tomcat knowledge
>> necessary to deliver that support.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:
>> >>> https://endoflife.date/tomcat
>> >>>
>> >>> Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:
>>  Hello,
>> 
>>  Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL
>> plan?
>> >>
>> >> See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html
>> >>
>>  1.  8.5.X
>> >>
>> >> EOL 31 March 2024
>> >>
>>  2.  9.0.X
>> >>
>> >> No plans.
>> >> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
>> >>
>>  3.  10.0.X
>> >>
>> >> Already EOL as of 31 October 2022
>> >>
>>  4.  10.1.X
>> >>
>> >> No plans.
>> >> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
>> >>
>> >> Mark
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
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>> >
>>
>> -
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>>
>
>
> --
> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org
>
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>
>



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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-20 Thread Aryeh Friedman
Top posting since my comments are not 100% relevant to the issue in
the thread (i.e. related but not in detail).

It would be nice if Tomcat published EOL's since there are
applications (like HIPAA webapps [I do remote cardiac monitoring])
that are automatically declared to be insecure if the underlying
platform has any EOL'ed components (this why just upgraded from 9.0.35
to 9.0.85) and in some cases (like HIPAA) have goverment imposed fines
if there is a breach due to using EOL'ed components.   Thus there is a
need for known/published EOL dates in such apps.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 6:58 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:
>
> On 19/01/2024 19:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:
> > @Mark Thomas,
> >
> > Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache Tomcat 
> > 9.0.X is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?
>
> I'd say 2027 is a reasonable estimate of the likely EOL date for 9.0.x
> but I'm not going to provide any guarantees on that.
>
> The Tomcat community has committed to providing at least 12 months
> notice of EOL of any major version.
>
> More detail in the thread listed below against 9.0.x.
>
> If long term support is your concern then I'd consider looking at Tomcat
> 10.1.x. It does require Java 11 (Tomcat 9.0.x requires Java 8) but it
> will get you an additional ~3 years support.
>
> I will take the opportunity to point out that what you get with Tomcat
> is already pretty good.
>
> - major versions support for ~10 years including new features, bug
>fixes and security fixes
>
> - monthly releases throughout that ~10 year period (with the odd gap)
>
> - all reproducible bugs reported fixed in the next release (this is the
>one where Tomcat really stands out)
>
> - you can actually talk to the folks the maintain the code
>
>
> If you really need 9.0.x and really need guarantees on dates then there
> are commercial organizations that will sell you that service. Just make
> sure you pick one that has the skills and in-depth Tomcat knowledge
> necessary to deliver that support.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:
> >>> https://endoflife.date/tomcat
> >>>
> >>> Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:
>  Hello,
> 
>  Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?
> >>
> >> See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html
> >>
>  1.  8.5.X
> >>
> >> EOL 31 March 2024
> >>
>  2.  9.0.X
> >>
> >> No plans.
> >> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
> >>
>  3.  10.0.X
> >>
> >> Already EOL as of 31 October 2022
> >>
>  4.  10.1.X
> >>
> >> No plans.
> >> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
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> >
>
> -
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>


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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-20 Thread Simon Matter
> On 19/01/2024 19:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:
>> @Mark Thomas,
>>
>> Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache
>> Tomcat 9.0.X is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?
>
> I'd say 2027 is a reasonable estimate of the likely EOL date for 9.0.x
> but I'm not going to provide any guarantees on that.
>
> The Tomcat community has committed to providing at least 12 months
> notice of EOL of any major version.
>
> More detail in the thread listed below against 9.0.x.
>
> If long term support is your concern then I'd consider looking at Tomcat
> 10.1.x. It does require Java 11 (Tomcat 9.0.x requires Java 8) but it
> will get you an additional ~3 years support.
>
> I will take the opportunity to point out that what you get with Tomcat
> is already pretty good.
>
> - major versions support for ~10 years including new features, bug
>fixes and security fixes
>
> - monthly releases throughout that ~10 year period (with the odd gap)
>
> - all reproducible bugs reported fixed in the next release (this is the
>one where Tomcat really stands out)
>
> - you can actually talk to the folks the maintain the code
>

I'd like to thank the Tomcat community for all what they're doing. I know
a lot of projects but Tomcat is really at the top of the list for all the
things pointed out above!

Regards,
Simon


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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-19 Thread Mark Thomas

On 19/01/2024 19:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:

@Mark Thomas,

Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache Tomcat 9.0.X 
is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?


I'd say 2027 is a reasonable estimate of the likely EOL date for 9.0.x 
but I'm not going to provide any guarantees on that.


The Tomcat community has committed to providing at least 12 months 
notice of EOL of any major version.


More detail in the thread listed below against 9.0.x.

If long term support is your concern then I'd consider looking at Tomcat 
10.1.x. It does require Java 11 (Tomcat 9.0.x requires Java 8) but it 
will get you an additional ~3 years support.


I will take the opportunity to point out that what you get with Tomcat 
is already pretty good.


- major versions support for ~10 years including new features, bug
  fixes and security fixes

- monthly releases throughout that ~10 year period (with the odd gap)

- all reproducible bugs reported fixed in the next release (this is the
  one where Tomcat really stands out)

- you can actually talk to the folks the maintain the code


If you really need 9.0.x and really need guarantees on dates then there 
are commercial organizations that will sell you that service. Just make 
sure you pick one that has the skills and in-depth Tomcat knowledge 
necessary to deliver that support.


Mark





Thanks.



On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:



On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:

https://endoflife.date/tomcat

Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:

Hello,

Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?


See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html


    1.  8.5.X


EOL 31 March 2024


    2.  9.0.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0


    3.  10.0.X


Already EOL as of 31 October 2022


    4.  10.1.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0

Mark

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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-19 Thread Christopher Schultz

Francisco,

On 1/19/24 14:06, Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar wrote:

Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache
Tomcat 9.0.X is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?

Did you take a look at the mailing list thread references?

-chris


On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:



On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:

https://endoflife.date/tomcat

Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:

Hello,

Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?


See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html


    1.  8.5.X


EOL 31 March 2024


    2.  9.0.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0


    3.  10.0.X


Already EOL as of 31 October 2022


    4.  10.1.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0

Mark

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RE: Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-19 Thread Francisco Dellanio Leite Alencar
@Mark Thomas, 

Is it possible to consider that the minimum support time of Apache Tomcat 9.0.X 
is until 2027 (10 years since Released)?

Thanks.



On 2024/01/08 08:42:28 Mark Thomas wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:
> > https://endoflife.date/tomcat
> > 
> > Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?
> 
> See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html
> 
> >>    1.  8.5.X
> 
> EOL 31 March 2024
> 
> >>    2.  9.0.X
> 
> No plans.
> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
> 
> >>    3.  10.0.X
> 
> Already EOL as of 31 October 2022
> 
> >>    4.  10.1.X
> 
> No plans.
> See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0
> 
> Mark
> 
> -
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> 
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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-09 Thread Christopher Schultz

Maruks,

On 1/8/24 1:47 AM, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:

https://endoflife.date/tomcat


This is actually really great: accurate and up-to-date.

The only disappointing thing is that it does not have references 
pointing to the original documentation from the project.


-chris

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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-08 Thread Mark Thomas




On 08/01/2024 06:47, i...@flyingfischer.ch wrote:

https://endoflife.date/tomcat

Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:

Hello,

Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?


See https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html


   1.  8.5.X


EOL 31 March 2024


   2.  9.0.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0


   3.  10.0.X


Already EOL as of 31 October 2022


   4.  10.1.X


No plans.
See https://lists.apache.org/thread/qlzpscgoqct9wspkj5qjkm34s66jswj0

Mark

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Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-07 Thread Brian Wolfe
https://tomcat.apache.org/whichversion.html

10.0 is EOL but 10.1 is still getting releases.
https://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-10.0-eol.html

The official end of life plan for 8.5
https://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-85-eol.html
Basically the final release will be coming out, then it will receive no
more fixes.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 1:47 AM i...@flyingfischer.ch 
wrote:

> https://endoflife.date/tomcat
>
> Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?
> >
> >
> >1.  8.5.X
> >2.  9.0.X
> >3.  10.0.X
> >4.  10.1.X
> >
> > This information would be very critical for us to move forward.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kedar
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

-- 
Thanks,
Brian Wolfe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-wolfe-3136425a/


Re: EOL - Tomcat versions

2024-01-07 Thread i...@flyingfischer.ch

https://endoflife.date/tomcat

Am 08.01.24 um 07:39 schrieb Deshmukh, Kedar:

Hello,

Could you please throw some light on Tomcat versions and its EOL plan?


   1.  8.5.X
   2.  9.0.X
   3.  10.0.X
   4.  10.1.X

This information would be very critical for us to move forward.


Thanks,
Kedar



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