Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
We've started using Cayenne and Wicket to refactor an existing Struts based application. I've found this combination lethally powerful and fast and so far we are moving at a much quicker pace. Just as important though, and the reason I chose wicket, is that the true html view is allowing the designers and UI folks to participate in the development as true partners, in real-time, directly out of SVN. So there are two measures of speed, the Java Coding Speed and the overall speed of the organization. We have not deployed anything yet but so far so good. J On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Curtis Cooley curtis.coo...@venture.com.sg wrote: Xhelas wrote: This is a very interesting and surprising post in this forum. Do you have further explanation about your superior productivity using Grails? Is this due to the kind of applications you developp or to special tools that comes with this framework? Is the key stone groovy? Thanks for your enlighments! Like I said, it was a very rough estimate. I believe it was because I was so green in each framework. Grails does so much grunt work and code generation for you, that you can focus on getting your business logic done. We were trying to do a comparison of the two frameworks, so that is why we added Spring and Hibernate to the Wicket mix. Grails wires in your ORM and dependency injection so you don't have to. Also, this was a very short and pretty unscientific experiment. Just one of many 'opinions' one can consider when looking at frameworks. Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Nino Martinez wrote: Hi Curtis You cant really compare wicket against Grails, Wicket is not a full stack framework (Wicket is only a webframework).. And actually Grails can run with wicket too[1]... Or are you saying that dynamic languages are better than type safety? Not that I want to start a religious war though, im not that well wandered in neither Grails, Rails etc to know whats better or not.. I agree that it is not a fair comparison, and I do not wish to imply that Grails is better than Wicket or that dynamic languages are better then strongly typed languages. I don't wish to imply anything other than report my experience on how effective I 'felt' while developing the same application in Grails and Wicket. I guess what you are saying are that the Spring plus hibernate combo could be better..? There are a lot of alternatives to that combo.. Or is it that Grails has better templating support? Grails hides the ORM and dependency injection libraries and replaces the configuration with convention. It was the Spring and Hibernate configuration that bogged me down and perhaps biased me a bit against the Wicket solution. Anyhow what I am seeing are that Wicket are always the least of my troubles, it's always something else and usually it's not Spring either so that only leaves the ORM as trouble maker, or is it the programmet :) On larger projects you kind of develop your own framework (with Wicket+.*) for the business logic and when you get there speed really picks up. I agree, at least as far as I can with my little experience with Wicket. I did not mean to sound sour against Wicket. I like the framework, which is why when my boss went running from Grails like an extra in a Godzilla movie, I pushed for Wicket. I just personally feel more effective using Grails/Rails than I do with Wicket. Your mileage will vary ;) Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
This is a very interesting and surprising post in this forum. Do you have further explanation about your superior productivity using Grails? Is this due to the kind of applications you developp or to special tools that comes with this framework? Is the key stone groovy? Thanks for your enlighments! Curtis Cooley-2 wrote: Martin Sachs wrote: pI'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. /p p I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. /p Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? br (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails then my boss freaked about using a 4GL and made me rewrite it in Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks. Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points. My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks of Wicket work. If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1! Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-your-experience-on-the-time-of-development---tp20971605p21280228.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Hi Curtis You cant really compare wicket against Grails, Wicket is not a full stack framework (Wicket is only a webframework).. And actually Grails can run with wicket too[1]... Or are you saying that dynamic languages are better than type safety? Not that I want to start a religious war though, im not that well wandered in neither Grails, Rails etc to know whats better or not.. I guess what you are saying are that the Spring plus hibernate combo could be better..? There are a lot of alternatives to that combo.. Or is it that Grails has better templating support? Anyhow what I am seeing are that Wicket are always the least of my troubles, it's always something else and usually it's not Spring either so that only leaves the ORM as trouble maker, or is it the programmet :) On larger projects you kind of develop your own framework (with Wicket+.*) for the business logic and when you get there speed really picks up. [1]=http://grails.org/Wicket+Plugin Curtis Cooley wrote: Martin Sachs wrote: pI'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. /p p I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. /p Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? br (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails then my boss freaked about using a 4GL and made me rewrite it in Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks. Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points. My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks of Wicket work. If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1! Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Well, funny you should mention this... I had a thought a few weeks ago about starting a blog to show how I have been doing TDD with Wicket. It seems like it is quite easy to do, but there were not many posts discussing ways do do some testing or examples of testing things ajax components etc I have a couple of posts, just getting some of the basics set up... http://empty-your-cup.blogspot.com/ Hopefully I can get some time to demonstrate some simple page and component tests soon. Page testing can be fairly easy because you can just use the WicketTester to start the page. Testing a component can be a bit trickier sometimes because you need to use something like the TestPageSource. Tests generally cover behaviour, for example if I press this button a panel X should be shown, The name text field should contain the name of the user, Changing the first name updates the name in the model, Errors should have a CSS class of 'error' added. All of these things are quite straight forward to test. We rely on some components working correctly eg that the TextField will generate a valid html textfield, so we shouldn't have to test that. We can test the behaviour of ajax calls - as long as the behaviour is something simple like the component should be updated/hidden/shown by checking it is in the ajax response. The unit tests won't check that the CSS class 'error' shows the text in red with twinkling lights, but that isn't a behaviour. So we still have perhaps some manual testing, in various browsers, to make sure it looks ok. If someone changes some java code which stops a component displaying our unit tests should be able to fail and show us the cause. If someone changes the CSS and makes errors appear green... well, hopefully someone will notice that quickly. I hope that gives you a hint. Stay tuned for more in the blog... today was my first day back at work in the new year so it might have to wait a short time! ZedroS wrote: Jason Lea wrote: We decided to do Test Driven Development because we could use the WicketTester to help in development of our pages/components. Hum, very interesting : the wicket testers classes are really functional and efficient. I didn't look deep into them, considering (wrongly apparently) that even if the tests would pass I couldn't be sure that the page would be rendered fine. What's your feedback on this point ? Furthermore, is it easy as well to test only components ? Or do you have to do unit component tests ? To sum up my mail, I would love to have more insight of Wicket and TDD... :$ Thanks in advance ;) cheers zedros -- Jason Lea
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Martin Sachs wrote: pI'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. /p p I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. /p Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? br (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) I built a small database driven application in about 4 days using Grails then my boss freaked about using a 4GL and made me rewrite it in Wicket. That took me about 3 weeks. Now, I started at 0 with both frameworks and used Wicket+Spring+Hibernate which I got Spring and Hibernate wiring for free with Grails. My Spring and Hibernate experience was 0, so grails really pulled through in that area. I also have experience with Ruby and Rails which helped with the Grails work, but I'd also built a few (4-5) Wicket pages for another app, so I think that about balances starting points. My really rough guess is that I'd be 50 to 75 percent more effective in Grails than Wicket now that I know what I learned during the three weeks of Wicket work. If I had my druthers, I'd build our app using Grails. I much prefer Groovy/Ruby to Java, and I've been writing Java since 1.1! Confidential/Privileged information may be contained in this email. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not copy, distribute or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this in error. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
I think it depends on several things: - How complex is your UI? - How good are you with objects? - How many reusable pieces do you have from old Wicket projects? On a very complex project where I can reuse old code, I think I can get as much as 4-5x over something like Struts (which, I admittedly have never used, but do roughly understand). That means that on the right project I think I could out-code a small team of Struts programmers (and I think the other core devs and a lot of others on this list could do similarly). I've been wondering for a while how one might be able to arbitrage this advantage in the markets for web development. In theory, if you really can get 4-5x leverage against the right set of requirements and you produce something that is also highly maintainable, it would be a bargain to the client to pay 2-3x $/hr because the total cost would be lower. Martin Sachs wrote: pI'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. /p p I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. /p Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? br (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-your-experience-on-the-time-of-development---tp20971605p21193436.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
I would not count in how much you gain during your fist devs. with Wicket (even though you STILL gain a lot of time), but how much dev time you gain when reusing your existing Wicket components and how much time you save when you need to maintain your apps ;) Cheers, Antoine. Martin Sachs wrote: I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- Antoine Angénieux Associé Clinigrid 5, avenue Mozart 75016 Paris, France +336 60 21 09 18 aangeni...@clinigrid.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Your right ! Already I have developed three Wicket apps (12 month of work for a man), I know how fast i can do thinks with wicket, but i need knowledge of e.g. JSF to say wicket is THE FRAMEWORK for the next big site. Maybe with JSF all things will be developed a lot faster, maybe not. Is other technologies also Maintainable very well, in comparison to wicket ? That questions cant be answered with looking at a HelloWorld application. Every application has its own unique requirements on style, architecture, so we cant reuse only very abstract components. That works fine with wicket. So if we have a new project we develop the basics components for this project (very fast). Maybe you can estimate a factor of time (for development or maintaining) in comparison with JSP, JSF, ... or whatever you know else. regards Martin Antoine Angénieux wrote: I would not count in how much you gain during your fist devs. with Wicket (even though you STILL gain a lot of time), but how much dev time you gain when reusing your existing Wicket components and how much time you save when you need to maintain your apps ;) Cheers, Antoine. Martin Sachs wrote: I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- Antoine Angénieux Associé Clinigrid 5, avenue Mozart 75016 Paris, France +336 60 21 09 18 aangeni...@clinigrid.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-your-experience-on-the-time-of-development---tp20971605p20973394.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Martin Sachs wrote: Your right ! Already I have developed three Wicket apps (12 month of work for a man), I know how fast i can do thinks with wicket, but i need knowledge of e.g. JSF to say wicket is THE FRAMEWORK for the next big site. Maybe with JSF all things will be developed a lot faster, maybe not. Is other technologies also Maintainable very well, in comparison to wicket ? That questions cant be answered with looking at a HelloWorld application. Right. Always choose the right tool for the job ;) in my case, a small dev team (1 ~ 3 devs), many variants of the same kind of middle-sized webapps, and exactly the kind of apps that belong to wicket's comfort zone. Every application has its own unique requirements on style, architecture, so we cant reuse only very abstract components. That works fine with wicket. So if we have a new project we develop the basics components for this project (very fast). Agreed. However, I found that when dealing with web applications rather than web site, where a simple and effective HTML / CSS / Ajax based UI is enough, I could reuse many stuff from previous projects. Naturally, what I reuse most often as is are the custom components (read wicket components) we have already built. The only project specific implementation required for those are usualy the IModel implems to use, and sometimes a few CSS / HTML tweaks. As we use Wicket only for the UI layer (classical Spring / Wicket stack), I find that most often, when desiging the requirements for the UI, I find existing designs and working implementations either in our previous projects, in wicket user list or by googling... Thankfully, there are still times where I have to come up with some fresh design. Maybe you can estimate a factor of time (for development or maintaining) in comparison with JSP, JSF, ... or whatever you know else As meaningfull as it can be, three years ago we rewrote our base applications that were based on a Struts 1.x / JSP / Spring / JDBC stack. The app was a small / middle sized app at the time (~ 30 struts actions, ~ 100 jsps) representing a ~5 months of workman. It tooks us 2 months of workman to rewrite from scratch with Wicket. Maintenance time on live applications has been cut down by a factor 2 on average. New project developpement time has been cutoff by a factor 3 on average. Off course, this is not only due to switching to Wicket (event though it is the major factor), but also to using other techs. where usefull like Hibernate co, and rewriting from scratch an application with more than 3 years of feedback on the previous version ;) I won't talk about JSF as after my first evaluations of the tech. in our company context, and continuously ranting inside my head for the 3 days investigating it, I decided that the only way I would use JSF was to torture me to death :D Cheers, Antoine. regards Martin Antoine Angénieux wrote: I would not count in how much you gain during your fist devs. with Wicket (even though you STILL gain a lot of time), but how much dev time you gain when reusing your existing Wicket components and how much time you save when you need to maintain your apps ;) Cheers, Antoine. Martin Sachs wrote: I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- Antoine Angénieux Associé Clinigrid 5, avenue Mozart 75016 Paris, France +336 60 21 09 18 aangeni...@clinigrid.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- Antoine Angénieux Associé Clinigrid 5, avenue Mozart 75016 Paris, France +336 60 21 09 18 aangeni...@clinigrid.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Hello I worked on a JSF project last year. This year I worked on a wicket project. Both were approximately the same size and complexity. Granted. You learn from experience. The second time around you do something (or something quite similar), you do it much, much better. AND I had previous experience with JSF (Nearly two years worth) and not with Wicket. AND I had good expertise on HTML/JavaScript, which I could leverage on Wicket, but not on JSF. It took half the time. I truly believe that JSF was meant to sell tools to developers, whereas wicket seems more from programmer to programmer you know... pragmatic. I am yet to see how the new application performs on production. But, as far as I see, I am about to become a Wicket advocate. I think I am seeing the light. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Martin Sachs sachs.mar...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-your-experience-on-the-time-of-development---tp20971605p20971605.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Marcelo Morales - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: What is your experience on the time of development ?
Our company started with Tapestry 5 last year. Early this year we had the chance for the team to try Wicket after getting frustrated with Tapestry. I wrote a small comment here about it: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=50634#268364 Tapestry 5 seemed to be fast due to the live class reloading. So you would code a bit, check the page in your browser, and then code a bit more. But as soon as you hit a problem it seemed to take hours to get around it. We had to write lots of custom ajax and javascript for all sorts of simple cases. This left us with pages that generally worked but without any tests to confirm behaviour. It think the java classes looked ugly too, with various public getters for anything that should appear on the page. It made it hard to estimate how long a page would take because we would hit tricky problems quite often. When we changed to Wicket, the speed tended to be the same at first which was surprising. We decided to do Test Driven Development because we could use the WicketTester to help in development of our pages/components. We finished the 2 month project in the same time as we estimated for doing it in Tapestry 5, but were were also writing unit tests and 3/4 of the team were learning Wicket. Also our estimates for doing the project in Tapestry involved sharing components from our existing application. We are much faster now, our estimates are very accurate now, we have lots of tests so we are happy to refactor/maintain code. The style of coding is quite different now. We set up the basic html + wicket class, write a test to make sure the page renders, then start adding more tests and components. After an hour of writing tests/code we might check it once in the browser. It gives you a great feeling to spend that much time in the IDE, getting lots of green bars as the tests pass then launch it in the browser and it just works. We are now rewriting the existing application in Wicket, page by page, moving components+tests we wrote into a shared module so we can use them in both projects. Re-use yay! So I guess we could say our development time might be 1.5 - 2 times faster. Our maintenance is faster again, maybe 4-6 times, because we can just write a new test to show the behaviour we want, fix the code and we can be confident we haven't broken anything else. With our old application we would have to test the page/ajax/javascript by hand. Martin Sachs wrote: I'm looking for a little comparison of the development-time for Applications in Wicket against other Technologies. I think the development with Wicket is two times faster than Struts. But what are your experiences on JSF, Rails/Grails, SpringMVC/SpringWebFlow. Anyone you know the development-time from experience ? (P.S.: The applications must use AJAX and many custom components or tags in JSP, not just a hello world sample) -- Jason Lea - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
