Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
I'm sorry but your email client messed up the formatting and I can't figure out
what are you comments.
Could you please use text only emails.
- Original Message -
> From: "ybronhei"
> To: "Saggi Mizrahi"
> Cc: "Adam Litke" , "engine-devel" ,
> "VDSM Project Development"
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 8:37:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
>
>
> On 12/05/2012 12:20 AM, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
>
>
> As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the
> storage subsystem I suggest going over how
> I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task
> recovery.
> Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their
> needs.
>
> There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need
> different ways of tracking\recovering from them.
> network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please
> fix" command if the network is down.
> Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own
> because it might take up valuable resources from the host.
> Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the
> entire cluster need to have their own APIs.
> VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes
> persists and storage always persists.
> This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view)
> need to be vastly different.
> Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM
> doesn't have nearly as much information to deal with the tasks.
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "Adam Litke" To: "Saggi Mizrahi"
> Cc: "VDSM Project Development"
> , "engine-devel"
> , "Ayal
> Baron" , "Barak Azulay" ,
> "Shireesh Anjal" Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012
> 3:50:28 PM
> Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
>
> On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
>
> Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look
> going forward
> I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we
> can talk
> about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still
> debating things
> myself but it's very close to being done. Don't debate them yourself,
> debate them here! Even better, propose
> your idea in
> schema form to show how a command might work exactly. I don't like
> throwing ideas in the air It can be much easier to understand the
> flow of a task in vdsm and outside vdsm by a small schema, mainly
> for the each task's states.
> To define the flow of a task you can separate between type of tasks
> (network, storage, vms, or else), we should have task's states that
> clarify if the task can be recovered or not, can be canceled or not
> and inc..
>
> Canceling\Aborting\Reverting states should be more clarified and not
> every state can lead to all types of states.
> I tries to figure how task flow works today in vdsm, and this is what
> I've got - http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based
> communication is
> that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really
> debatable
> because it's just how TCP\AMQP\ works. Can you show how a
> traditionally synchronous command might work?
> Let's take
> Host.getVmList as an example. The same as it works today, it's all a
> matter of how you wrap the transport layer.
> You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the
> same id.
>
> As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that.
> Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior.
> Make every method return an object to track the task.
> task = host.getVmList()
> if not task.wait(1):
> task.cancel()
> else:
> res = task.result() It looks like traditional timeout.. why not
> to split blocking actions and non-blocking actions, non-blocking
> action will supply callback function to return to if the task
> fails or success. for example:
>
> createAsyncTask(host.getVmList, params, timeout=30,
> callbackGetVmList)
>
> Instead of using the dispatcher? Do you want to keep the dispatcher
> concept?
>
>
>
> Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have
> list = host.getVmList()
> task = host.getVmList_async()
>
> Have a high level and low level interfaces.
> host = host()
> host.connect("tcp://host:3233")
> req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", [])
>
Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
On 12/05/2012 12:20 AM, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage
subsystem I suggest going over how
I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery.
Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs.
There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of
tracking\recovering from them.
network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command
if the network is down.
Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it
might take up valuable resources from the host.
Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster
need to have their own APIs.
VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists
and storage always persists.
This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to
be vastly different.
Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have
nearly as much information to deal with the tasks.
- Original Message -
From: "Adam Litke"
To: "Saggi Mizrahi"
Cc: "VDSM Project Development" , "engine-devel"
, "Ayal
Baron" , "Barak Azulay" , "Shireesh Anjal"
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM
Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look
going forward
I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we
can talk
about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still
debating things
myself but it's very close to being done.
Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose
your idea in
schema form to show how a command might work exactly.
I don't like throwing ideas in the air
It can be much easier to understand the flow of a task in vdsm and
outside vdsm by a small schema, mainly for the each task's states.
To define the flow of a task you can separate between type of tasks
(network, storage, vms, or else), we should have task's states that
clarify if the task can be recovered or not, can be canceled or not and
inc..
Canceling\Aborting\Reverting states should be more clarified and not
every state can lead to all types of states.
I tries to figure how task flow works today in vdsm, and this is what
I've got - http://wiki.ovirt.org/Vdsm_tasks
- Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based
communication is
that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really
debatable
because it's just how TCP\AMQP\ works.
Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work?
Let's take
Host.getVmList as an example.
The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport
layer.
You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id.
As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that.
Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior.
Make every method return an object to track the task.
task = host.getVmList()
if not task.wait(1):
task.cancel()
else:
res = task.result()
It looks like traditional timeout.. why not to split blocking actions
and non-blocking actions, non-blocking action will supply callback
function to return to if the task fails or success. for example:
createAsyncTask(host.getVmList, params, timeout=30, callbackGetVmList)
Instead of using the dispatcher? Do you want to keep the dispatcher concept?
Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have
list = host.getVmList()
task = host.getVmList_async()
Have a high level and low level interfaces.
host = host()
host.connect("tcp://host:3233")
req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", [])
if not req.wait(1):
shost = SynchHost(host)
shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
ahost = AsyncHost(host)
task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
- Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc
works and also
makes sense because no the engine can track the task without
needing to have a
stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long
as no one
else is using them at the time so they can be used for
synchronizing
operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed
once on a
specific host without locking).
- Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task
information.
There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an
object that
you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the
fact that
copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but
before the data
has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy
can be
queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy
operation
can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it.
After VDSM
crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to
con
Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
As the only subsystem to use asynchronous tasks until now is the storage
subsystem I suggest going over how
I suggest tackling task creation, task stop, task remove and task recovery.
Other subsystem can create similar mechanisms depending on their needs.
There is no way of avoiding it, different types of tasks need different ways of
tracking\recovering from them.
network should always auto-recover because it can't get a "please fix" command
if the network is down.
Storage on the other hand should never start operations on it's own because it
might take up valuable resources from the host.
Tasks that need to be tracked on a single host, 2 hosts, or the entire cluster
need to have their own APIs.
VM configuration never persist across reboots, networking sometimes persists
and storage always persists.
This means that recovery procedures (from the managers point of view) need to
be vastly different.
Add policy, resource allocation, and error flows you see that VDSM doesn't have
nearly as much information to deal with the tasks.
- Original Message -
> From: "Adam Litke"
> To: "Saggi Mizrahi"
> Cc: "VDSM Project Development" ,
> "engine-devel" , "Ayal
> Baron" , "Barak Azulay" , "Shireesh
> Anjal"
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:50:28 PM
> Subject: Re: VDSM tasks, the future
>
> On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote:
> > Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look
> > going forward
> > I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we
> > can talk
> > about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still
> > debating things
> > myself but it's very close to being done.
>
> Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose
> your idea in
> schema form to show how a command might work exactly.
I don't like throwing ideas in the air
>
> > - Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based
> > communication is
> > that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really
> > debatable
> > because it's just how TCP\AMQP\ works.
>
> Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work?
> Let's take
> Host.getVmList as an example.
The same as it works today, it's all a matter of how you wrap the transport
layer.
You will send a json-rpc request and wait for a response with the same id.
As for the bindings, there are a lot of way we can tackle that.
Always wait for the response and simulate synchronous behavior.
Make every method return an object to track the task.
task = host.getVmList()
if not task.wait(1):
task.cancel()
else:
res = task.result()
Have it both ways (it's auto generated anyway) and have
list = host.getVmList()
task = host.getVmList_async()
Have a high level and low level interfaces.
host = host()
host.connect("tcp://host:3233")
req = host.sendRequest("123213", "getVmList", [])
if not req.wait(1):
shost = SynchHost(host)
shost.getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
ahost = AsyncHost(host)
task = getVmList() # Actually wraps a request object
>
> > - Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc
> > works and also
> > makes sense because no the engine can track the task without
> > needing to have a
> > stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long
> > as no one
> > else is using them at the time so they can be used for
> > synchronizing
> > operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed
> > once on a
> > specific host without locking).
> >
> > - Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task
> > information.
> > There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an
> > object that
> > you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the
> > fact that
> > copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but
> > before the data
> > has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy
> > can be
> > queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy
> > operation
> > can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it.
> > After VDSM
> > crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to
> > continue
> > the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the
> > operation and
> > that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations
> > track-able
> > not through the task interface. For example Gluster.
> > gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been
> > registered with
> > Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of
> > the operation
> > from any host. Each call is a task in itself.
>
> I worry about this approach because every command has a different
> semantic for
> checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the
> src and
> dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on
> the dest
> image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking
> on an
> operation. M
Re: [vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 10:35:01AM -0500, Saggi Mizrahi wrote: > Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward > I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk > about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things > myself but it's very close to being done. Don't debate them yourself, debate them here! Even better, propose your idea in schema form to show how a command might work exactly. > - Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is > that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable > because it's just how TCP\AMQP\ works. Can you show how a traditionally synchronous command might work? Let's take Host.getVmList as an example. > - Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also > makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a > stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one > else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing > operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a > specific host without locking). > > - Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. > There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that > you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that > copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data > has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be > queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation > can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM > crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue > the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and > that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able > not through the task interface. For example Gluster. > gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with > Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation > from any host. Each call is a task in itself. I worry about this approach because every command has a different semantic for checking progress. For migration, we have to check VM status on the src and dest hosts. For image copy we need to use a special status call on the dest image. It would be nice if there was a unified method for checking on an operation. Maybe that can be completion events. Client: vdsm: --- - Image.copy(...) --> <-- Operation Started Wait for event ... <-- Event: Operation done For an early error: Client: vdsm: --- - Image.copy(...) --> <-- Error: > - No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task > ID if he really wants to tag tasks. Yes. Agreed. > - No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be > efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of > networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. How does this work in practice for something like creating a new image from a template? > - No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that > there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts > tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to > continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to > mitigate polling. If a disconnected client might have missed a completion event, it will need to check state. This means each async operation that changes state must document a proceedure for checking progress of a potentially ongoing operation. For Image.copy, that process would be to lookup the new image and check its state. > - No revert Impossible to implement safely. How do the engine folks feel about this? I am ok with it :) > - No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only > for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be > restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points. > A nice simplification. -- Adam Litke IBM Linux Technology Center ___ vdsm-devel mailing list vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel
[vdsm] VDSM tasks, the future
Because I started hinting about how VDSM tasks are going to look going forward I thought it's better I'll just write everything in an email so we can talk about it in context. This is not set in stone and I'm still debating things myself but it's very close to being done. - Everything is asynchronous. The nature of message based communication is that you can't have synchronous operations. This is not really debatable because it's just how TCP\AMQP\ works. - Task IDs will be decided by the caller. This is how json-rpc works and also makes sense because no the engine can track the task without needing to have a stage where we give it the task ID back. IDs are reusable as long as no one else is using them at the time so they can be used for synchronizing operations between clients (making sure a command is only executed once on a specific host without locking). - Tasks are transient If VDSM restarts it forgets all the task information. There are 2 ways to have persistent tasks: 1. The task creates an object that you can continue work on in VDSM. The new storage does that by the fact that copyImage() returns one the target volume has been created but before the data has been fully copied. From that moment on the stat of the copy can be queried from any host using getImageStatus() and the specific copy operation can be queried with getTaskStatus() on the host performing it. After VDSM crashes, depending on policy, either VDSM will create a new task to continue the copy or someone else will send a command to continue the operation and that will be a new task. 2. VDSM tasks just start other operations track-able not through the task interface. For example Gluster. gluster.startVolumeRebalance() will return once it has been registered with Gluster. glster.getOperationStatuses() will return the state of the operation from any host. Each call is a task in itself. - No task tags. They are silly and the caller can mangle whatever in the task ID if he really wants to tag tasks. - No explicit recovery stage. VDSM will be crash-only, there should be efforts to make everything crash-safe. If that is problematic, in case of networking, VDSM will recover on start without having a task for it. - No clean Task: Tasks can be started by any number of hosts this means that there is no way to own all tasks. There could be cases where VDSM starts tasks on it's own and thus they have no owner at all. The caller needs to continually track the state of VDSM. We will have brodcasted events to mitigate polling. - No revert Impossible to implement safely. - No SPM\HSM tasks SPM\SDM is no longer necessary for all domain types (only for type). What used to be SPM tasks, or tasks that persist and can be restarted on other hosts is talked about in previous bullet points. ___ vdsm-devel mailing list vdsm-devel@lists.fedorahosted.org https://lists.fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/vdsm-devel
