[videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
Hello everyone! Over the past three months I completed three 2-minute videos for a startup DJ company, who never paid a penny for my work, promising me that when they will start getting paid for their gigs in night clubs then they will pay me for each completed video. Within these three months I shot 8 events for them, each one requiring at least 4 hours of shooting. They started pressuring me lately to deliver four more completed videos within a week or so. Since they never paid for any of my work I told them if they wanted speed they would have to pay $600 per completed video with a week turnaround from the shoot day. This escalated into a dispute and now I no longer want to deal with them. I asked them kindly to remove these three videos I created from their web site, myspace, youtube, and vimeo. They are refusing to do so claiming that these videos belong to them. I offered to let them keep them online if they would pay $300 per each video so we part our ways peacefully. And now we are having a dispute over who owns these videos. All of the agreements we made among us were verbal and never in writing. On Monday I want to file a lawsuit in small claims court to have these videos pulled of the web or for them to pay up. Has anyone in our vlogging community ever dealt with a similar situation? If I were to contact Youtube/Vimeo for video removal request, what do they ask for to proof video ownership? Should I also file for reimbursement for the time I spent shooting these 8 events? Basically it comes to 32 hours of very hard work running around in the clubs shooting small clips. I offered them these source video files at $100 per each event, so they could use them by hiring another editor, they refused. So I will gladly have to purge them all. After the court, of course. Also, there's no copyright mention in the end credits of all three videos, the last two list my name as camera/editing. They're claiming that their glamorous company provided exposure for my video skills. I never wanted exposure by shooting and editing their videos. I even did not put my name in the end credits of the first video, which proofs that. They approached me for help, not the other way around. Here are these three videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8x5B-h08Hs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGRiB35h7Pw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcIbVFu6_PE This DJ company never invested into any of the video production (props, special video preparation or anything). They just had a stable (yes, stable, :) that's what it says in their recent press release) of girls DJ for them, without paying them either by the way. I have seen many of their graphic designers and photographers come and go, which slowly started making sense to me that they just want to parasite off other people's energy and skills. I would truly appreciate any input you may have regarding this situation or content ownership before I head out to court to fight for my rights. Thanks everyone! Renat Zarbailov of Innomind.org
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
First of all, I'm not a lawyer. Secondly, that is a crappy (and all too familiar) situation. Thirdly (and sadly), I don't think your chances are good to get any money back. I once found myself, like you, battling against a company for whom I created videos on the promise of back-end reimbursement and further employment once they had more stable cash-flow. We never had a written contract in place...it was all based on handshakes, smiles and good faith. Needless to say, I lost out on that deal. It did, however, teach me two very valuable lesson: 1) always have a contract, 2) always make sure the contract stipulates and outlines project phases and a payment structure. First, without a contract, it's nearly impossible to get money from someone -- at least, much to my fiercely principled dismay, so says my attorney. Secondly, if you break up the project into several phases with partial payment due at the beginning of each phase, you can cover yourself if all of a sudden the client starts reneging on the agreement. If you don't get paid at the start of Phase 2, for instance, you have a contractual right to stop working. And if the client refuses the final delivery payment, at least you're not out the ENTIRE amount. Don't get me wrong, it still stings to get stiffed (and always will), but at least you probably won't LOSE money on the deal. But, and here's the extra sad part, if you do need to legally enforce a contract the legal fees can make it all worthless. If you're going to spend more on attorney and filing fees than you would make from the job, you may want to consider just chalking it up to "life experience" and keying the deadbeat client's car (no, wait, that's not legal -- dang!). Unless you're wealthy enough to prove a point, of course. That would be the life. :-) On the other hand, if you threaten to take someone to court, there will be legal fees on their end as well, and that might encourage them to settle (after all, they'll be using the same logic as you -- "will going to court to defend ourselves cost more than just paying for the videos?"). So, that's my $0.02 in general. Hopefully it helps save someone the same pain that you and I (and, I'm sure, most of the other members on this list trying to make a living with this crazy video stuff) have experienced. With respect to your specific issue -- ultimately, who owns the work: you or them -- I don't think you could win. You gave them the videos without a contract stipulating that they could only use them if they paid you. And, as they say, possession is 9/10ths of the law...insofar as you now have the burden of proof on this one. They'll argue, "he gave us the videos for free...and NOW, after we've done *all this work* to put them online and have been using them to promote ourselves, he's telling us that we have to pay! That's not fair! Whine, whine, whine!" And then the judge will look at you and say, "Ok, so...do you have a contract?" Honestly, I feel for you and I'm certainly not trying to make your day worse than it already is. I wish I had a sunnier perspective. :-( Hopefully there is an actual lawyer lurking on the list somewhere who can fill in with more precise advice, but based on my experience I think you're stuck. Good luck, though!! And keep fighting the good fight. -- Kris Boustedt | First Sight Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 206.354.5031 Filmmaker | Editor | Apple Certified Trainer Associate Faculty, Shoreline Community College http://www.firstsightproductions.com On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Renat Zarbailov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello everyone! > > Over the past three months I completed three 2-minute videos for a > startup DJ company, who never paid a penny for my work, promising me > that when they will start getting paid for their gigs in night clubs > then they will pay me for each completed video. > > Within these three months I shot 8 events for them, each one requiring > at least 4 hours of shooting. > > They started pressuring me lately to deliver four more completed > videos within a week or so. Since they never paid for any of my work I > told them if they wanted speed they would have to pay $600 per > completed video with a week turnaround from the shoot day. This > escalated into a dispute and now I no longer want to deal with them. > > I asked them kindly to remove these three videos I created from their > web site, myspace, youtube, and vimeo. They are refusing to do so > claiming that these videos belong to them. I offered to let them keep > them online if they would pay $300 per each video so we part our ways > peacefully. And now we are having a dispute over who owns these videos. > > All of the agreements we made among us were verbal and never in writing. > > On Monday I want to file a lawsuit in small claims court to have these > videos pulled of the web or for them to pay up. Has anyone in our > vlogging community ever dealt with a similar situation? If I were to
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
> On Monday I want to file a lawsuit in small claims court to have these > videos pulled of the web or for them to pay up. Has anyone in our > vlogging community ever dealt with a similar situation? If I were to > contact Youtube/Vimeo for video removal request, what do they ask for > to proof video ownership? Kris gave a great rundown of your options IMHO. You got to take some responsibility here for doing work for free without a contract. This kind of situation asks for trouble. I think going to small claims court would be more trouble than its worth. might feel good for the revenge factor if you want to put in all the time and expense. Here's the blogging way of justice: 1. --Blog about your experience with this company. Write a post that tells the story and provide links to their site. If they wrote you emails saying they would pay you, include them verbatim. Unless they are a fly by night company, they will hate that you're post will show up in their google reputation. 2. --Get your friends to link to this post. Deepen their bad reputation online with more links. Also, this will warn others who may come after you. 3. --It wouldnt hurt sending youtube and other sites an email saying that those videos are your work (especially if they have your name). It's why the shitty DMCA was written. They can of course write back to possible have them reinstalled, but your making them work for it. Sorry to hear you got screwed on thisi job. I bet you wont let it ever happen again. Jay -- http://jaydedman.com 917 371 6790 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
I second this... and...you should never underestimate your work but if you are doing videoworks to promote your skills or build up a brand name ...hmmm just do it for free...take it as an investment lesson learned... sharks are all around...then ... JohnDkar www.yotube.com/johndkar From: Kris Boustedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 1:23 AM First of all, I'm not a lawyer. Secondly, that is a crappy (and all too familiar) situation. Thirdly (and sadly), I don't think your chances are good to get any money back. I once found myself, like you, battling against a company for whom I created videos on the promise of back-end reimbursement and further employment once they had more stable cash-flow. We never had a written contract in place...it was all based on handshakes, smiles and good faith. Needless to say, I lost out on that deal. It did, however, teach me two very valuable lesson: 1) always have a contract, 2) always make sure the contract stipulates and outlines project phases and a payment structure. First, without a contract, it's nearly impossible to get money from someone -- at least, much to my fiercely principled dismay, so says my attorney. Secondly, if you break up the project into several phases with partial payment due at the beginning of each phase, you can cover yourself if all of a sudden the client starts reneging on the agreement. If you don't get paid at the start of Phase 2, for instance, you have a contractual right to stop working. And if the client refuses the final delivery payment, at least you're not out the ENTIRE amount. Don't get me wrong, it still stings to get stiffed (and always will), but at least you probably won't LOSE money on the deal. But, and here's the extra sad part, if you do need to legally enforce a contract the legal fees can make it all worthless. If you're going to spend more on attorney and filing fees than you would make from the job, you may want to consider just chalking it up to "life experience" and keying the deadbeat client's car (no, wait, that's not legal -- dang!). Unless you're wealthy enough to prove a point, of course. That would be the life. :-) On the other hand, if you threaten to take someone to court, there will be legal fees on their end as well, and that might encourage them to settle (after all, they'll be using the same logic as you -- "will going to court to defend ourselves cost more than just paying for the videos?"). So, that's my $0.02 in general. Hopefully it helps save someone the same pain that you and I (and, I'm sure, most of the other members on this list trying to make a living with this crazy video stuff) have experienced. With respect to your specific issue -- ultimately, who owns the work: you or them -- I don't think you could win. You gave them the videos without a contract stipulating that they could only use them if they paid you. And, as they say, possession is 9/10ths of the law...insofar as you now have the burden of proof on this one. They'll argue, "he gave us the videos for free...and NOW, after we've done *all this work* to put them online and have been using them to promote ourselves, he's telling us that we have to pay! That's not fair! Whine, whine, whine!" And then the judge will look at you and say, "Ok, so...do you have a contract?" Honestly, I feel for you and I'm certainly not trying to make your day worse than it already is. I wish I had a sunnier perspective. :-( Hopefully there is an actual lawyer lurking on the list somewhere who can fill in with more precise advice, but based on my experience I think you're stuck. Good luck, though!! And keep fighting the good fight. -- Kris Boustedt | First Sight Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] uctions.com | 206.354.5031 Filmmaker | Editor | Apple Certified Trainer Associate Faculty, Shoreline Community College http://www.firstsig htproductions. com On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Renat Zarbailov <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> wrote: > Hello everyone! > > Over the past three months I completed three 2-minute videos for a > startup DJ company, who never paid a penny for my work, promising me > that when they will start getting paid for their gigs in night clubs > then they will pay me for each completed video. > > Within these three months I shot 8 events for them, each one requiring > at least 4 hours of shooting. > > They started pressuring me lately to deliver four more completed > videos within a week or so. Since they never paid for any of my work I > told them if they wanted speed they would have to pay $600 per > completed video with a week turnaround from the shoot day. This > escalated into a dis
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
I agree with Jay's suggestions. But try to use reasonable language when you're blogging about them. And give them a right of reply in the comments - actively ask for it. Writing about it will get you worked up, and will make you want to say inflammatory things. Instead, try to make yourself sound like the most reasonable person on earth. It'll still show up as negative on their Google searches, and you'll be calling them out for bad behaviour which they'll hate, but people reading it will side with you more if it's not a raging flame. It makes it harder for them to rebut. And it puts you in a better position for negotiating with them later. Rupert http://twittervlog.tv Shot, edited and sent with my Nokia N93 On 9-Nov-08, at 4:32 AM, Jay dedman wrote: > On Monday I want to file a lawsuit in small claims court to have these > videos pulled of the web or for them to pay up. Has anyone in our > vlogging community ever dealt with a similar situation? If I were to > contact Youtube/Vimeo for video removal request, what do they ask for > to proof video ownership? Kris gave a great rundown of your options IMHO. You got to take some responsibility here for doing work for free without a contract. This kind of situation asks for trouble. I think going to small claims court would be more trouble than its worth. might feel good for the revenge factor if you want to put in all the time and expense. Here's the blogging way of justice: 1. --Blog about your experience with this company. Write a post that tells the story and provide links to their site. If they wrote you emails saying they would pay you, include them verbatim. Unless they are a fly by night company, they will hate that you're post will show up in their google reputation. 2. --Get your friends to link to this post. Deepen their bad reputation online with more links. Also, this will warn others who may come after you. 3. --It wouldnt hurt sending youtube and other sites an email saying that those videos are your work (especially if they have your name). It's why the shitty DMCA was written. They can of course write back to possible have them reinstalled, but your making them work for it. Sorry to hear you got screwed on thisi job. I bet you wont let it ever happen again. Jay -- http://jaydedman.com 917 371 6790 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
I've done lots of work for free over the years and some that wasn't supposed to be free but ended up being free. My rule is kind of like the lending money to friends and family - don't do it unless you are completely ok with not being paid back. If I'm going to do some work for free I try to make sure it's a fun/interesting/cool project. - Verdi
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Rupert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree with Jay's suggestions. But try to use reasonable language > when you're blogging about them. And give them a right of reply in > the comments - actively ask for it. Writing about it will get you > worked up, and will make you want to say inflammatory things. > Instead, try to make yourself sound like the most reasonable person > on earth. It'll still show up as negative on their Google searches, > and you'll be calling them out for bad behaviour which they'll hate, > but people reading it will side with you more if it's not a raging > flame. It makes it harder for them to rebut. And it puts you in a > better position for negotiating with them later. True. A clear, sober blog post about your experience will be more effective than just "these guys are fucks". why are they fucks? Include any emals they sent they prove it. I think Lan Bui had one of the most effective efforts publicizing being ripped off. http://lanbui.com/2007/05/14/creative-commons-podtechnet-doesnt-respect-my-copyright/ It was blogged about, picked up and discussed...and finally met with a respectable outcome. http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/7573 As Rupert mentioned, what you ultimately want is an open conversation with the company. We can now use public shame since they seem to think they can ignore you. Ultimately, if you write about an issue in a way that others can empathize with...they ll take it on as their own. These nightclub dudes could just be shady as fuck. pick your companies carefully. Jay -- http://jaydedman.com 917 371 6790
Re: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court
People stealing videos is a big problem on the Internet. It's a habit that I originally had when I started doing YouTube because I did a lot of video responses and wanted people to know what I was responding to. However when I say that this was done to a more negative light against me, I really started not to like doing that. Places like YouTube don't exactly make it easy to take down a video with your footage included, nor do they make it easy to take down videos stolen from you and uploaded by someone else. Getting a public reaction from YouTubers on stuff like that is even harder considering that they believe any promotion good or bad brings more attention to them, so your situation goes on def ears doublely so. I would suggest, despite the hurdles, to email YouTube and spell it out for them. Or blog about it. Matthew From: Renat Zarbailov Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:11 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Defending Videographer's Rights in Court Hello everyone! Over the past three months I completed three 2-minute videos for a startup DJ company, who never paid a penny for my work, promising me that when they will start getting paid for their gigs in night clubs then they will pay me for each completed video. Within these three months I shot 8 events for them, each one requiring at least 4 hours of shooting. They started pressuring me lately to deliver four more completed videos within a week or so. Since they never paid for any of my work I told them if they wanted speed they would have to pay $600 per completed video with a week turnaround from the shoot day. This escalated into a dispute and now I no longer want to deal with them. I asked them kindly to remove these three videos I created from their web site, myspace, youtube, and vimeo. They are refusing to do so claiming that these videos belong to them. I offered to let them keep them online if they would pay $300 per each video so we part our ways peacefully. And now we are having a dispute over who owns these videos. All of the agreements we made among us were verbal and never in writing. On Monday I want to file a lawsuit in small claims court to have these videos pulled of the web or for them to pay up. Has anyone in our vlogging community ever dealt with a similar situation? If I were to contact Youtube/Vimeo for video removal request, what do they ask for to proof video ownership? Should I also file for reimbursement for the time I spent shooting these 8 events? Basically it comes to 32 hours of very hard work running around in the clubs shooting small clips. I offered them these source video files at $100 per each event, so they could use them by hiring another editor, they refused. So I will gladly have to purge them all. After the court, of course. Also, there's no copyright mention in the end credits of all three videos, the last two list my name as camera/editing. They're claiming that their glamorous company provided exposure for my video skills. I never wanted exposure by shooting and editing their videos. I even did not put my name in the end credits of the first video, which proofs that. They approached me for help, not the other way around. Here are these three videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8x5B-h08Hs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGRiB35h7Pw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcIbVFu6_PE This DJ company never invested into any of the video production (props, special video preparation or anything). They just had a stable (yes, stable, :) that's what it says in their recent press release) of girls DJ for them, without paying them either by the way. I have seen many of their graphic designers and photographers come and go, which slowly started making sense to me that they just want to parasite off other people's energy and skills. I would truly appreciate any input you may have regarding this situation or content ownership before I head out to court to fight for my rights. Thanks everyone! Renat Zarbailov of Innomind.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
