Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
i don't trust anyone over 30... i will soon not trust myself... On Dec 28, 2007 4:53 AM, Patrick Delongchamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am always wary of people that distrust Wikipedia as it reveals a lot.
RE: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
I am always wary of people that distrust Wikipedia as it reveals a lot. It might simply reveal that they actually fact-checked more than one article and found Wikipedia to be packed with inaccuracies. In some cases, attempting to participate in Wikipedia and correct those accuracies is shut down by the powers that be in the Wikipedia hierarchy, even with irrefutable scientific proof in hand. Blindly trusting Wikipedia is just as stupid as blindly trusting anything else. Jake Ludington http://www.jakeludington.com
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Perhaps I should have said people that distrust the Wikipedia model. Fact checking is definitely your responsibility as well as an important part of anything you read online. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability which makes this much easier. Any statements that are not verifiable should of course be taken with a grain of salt. The content should of course be scrutinized in the same way anything you read should be scrutinized. Regarding inaccuracies and claims of suppression, Wikipedia has been found to be as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica and your distrust of it's model stems from a lack of understanding of it's policies and is not some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. Without even knowing what article, what statement, or what scientific journal you're referring to, I can assume with a good level of certainty that you were probably trying to cover up a significant viewpoint in order to advance a position through your own original research and synthesis of published material. This would necessarily lower the value of an encyclopedia article and, ironically, make it less trustworthy. It's important to understand something before discrediting it. However, if this is of no interest to you I can recommend others that universally hold the same opinions of Wikipedia as your own. They are: - creationists - people who easily buy into conspiracy theories - people who don't believe in the theory of evolution - people who buy into new age beliefs about quantum physics and movies like What the Bleep do we Know!? Down the rabbit hole. ...etc On Dec 28, 2007 12:21 PM, Jake Ludington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am always wary of people that distrust Wikipedia as it reveals a lot. It might simply reveal that they actually fact-checked more than one article and found Wikipedia to be packed with inaccuracies. In some cases, attempting to participate in Wikipedia and correct those accuracies is shut down by the powers that be in the Wikipedia hierarchy, even with irrefutable scientific proof in hand. Blindly trusting Wikipedia is just as stupid as blindly trusting anything else. Jake Ludington http://www.jakeludington.com
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
And just to bring things back to the topic at hand. This is exactly the kind of nit picking of emails that I feel has brought the group down. Where was the comment on everything else I brought up? This kind of stuff only starts flame wars. On Dec 28, 2007 12:21 PM, Jake Ludington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am always wary of people that distrust Wikipedia as it reveals a lot. It might simply reveal that they actually fact-checked more than one article and found Wikipedia to be packed with inaccuracies. In some cases, attempting to participate in Wikipedia and correct those accuracies is shut down by the powers that be in the Wikipedia hierarchy, even with irrefutable scientific proof in hand. Blindly trusting Wikipedia is just as stupid as blindly trusting anything else. Jake Ludington http://www.jakeludington.com
RE: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
And just to bring things back to the topic at hand. This is exactly the kind of nit picking of emails that I feel has brought the group down. Where was the comment on everything else I brought up? This kind of stuff only starts flame wars. I was validating your point by not commenting on things I agree with. ;) I have no interest in starting a flame war. Jake Ludington
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
lol, well said. On Dec 28, 2007 3:39 PM, Jake Ludington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And just to bring things back to the topic at hand. This is exactly the kind of nit picking of emails that I feel has brought the group down. Where was the comment on everything else I brought up? This kind of stuff only starts flame wars. I was validating your point by not commenting on things I agree with. ;) I have no interest in starting a flame war. Jake Ludington
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Patrick Delongchamp wrote: It's important to understand something before discrediting it. However, if this is of no interest to you I can recommend others that universally hold the same opinions of Wikipedia as your own. They are: - creationists - people who easily buy into conspiracy theories - people who don't believe in the theory of evolution - people who buy into new age beliefs about quantum physics and movies like What the Bleep do we Know!? Down the rabbit hole. Hitler was a vegetarian. This is why I eat meat.
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Andrew man, do you really have to lay a long ass email like that on me? Give a vidbro a break, wouldya? It's still the holidays for some people. Damn, now I gotta formulate answers You make a lot of assumptions about us and my role at PodTech, Let me just lay the ground work a bit so you have a better understanding. I get a sense of an almighty you suck tone in your response. I'll try not to let that color my reply to you. Producing GETV was only one part of my job at PodTech. Other parts were shooting editing corporate content for PodTech's paying clients, shooting editing o' plenty of Scoble's show before he got editors and later producing LunchMeet. Irina similarly had other things on her plate outside of GETV. Producing GETV was never to be our full-time job, nor was it to be a daily show in my mind. Please keep this in perspective as you read on. On Dec 26, 2007 5:51 PM, Andrew Baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a side track I guess on what may be a rhetorical question but a question nonetheless: On Dec 26, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Eddie Codel wrote: How many people do you think it takes to put out a daily Rocketboom episode? In context of your show on Podtech, along with the very nice budget that you had, as well as all of the business worries on someone else's watch, I would suggest just two, as you had. I think three is a great production number for a team but your budget would of been able to support more talent, it was up to you to determine the creative side I think. Over time, the success of the show is pretty much in your hands. Its all about the content and what you can do with your time. Of course there are a huge mound of barriers and bureaucracies and things that are truly not fair that get in the way, but I still think, at the end of the day, its what you can produce, content-wise that must build its own support. It seems like this must be the perspective or mind-set that you would need to be the most effective under the situation of deciding to go with a network like Podtech. Chalk it up to false expectations then, I'll take the hit for that. Andrew, I applaud your ability to pull off making a great daily show with such little resources. Our show was something that Irina and I pulled out of collective asses, not something with a grand vision or plan from the beginning. I never saw it as a daily show and we didn't have the time to make it a daily show even we wanted that. Again, our time was split at PodTech. Correct me if Im wrong, but I always saw Podtech as a record label that supports artists, not entrepreneurs or business people. It was meant for the people who dont want to deal with all the business, they just want to do one thing: make great content. If they just can do that one thing well, they are entrusting the record label to do the rest. Its more intertwined than that really, but thats the gist of what I mean to say. The record label of course expects or at least hopes that the artist will make some kind of work that allot of people will want to see. Interesting comparison and maybe apt if we actually did get support. Record labels also help their artists grow. They know what it takes to produce work that a lot of people will want to hear. PodTech was not that record label. With Rocketboom in particular, we do not have the support of a network. So its different, we do all of the business and try to grow everything ourselves. Along with some help from Josh Kinberg and Kenyatta Cheese, I pretty much did the whole thing daily myself for the first 6 months with Amanda Congdon pitching in a couple of hours per show. Eventually we we were both doing it full time. While I had some editing support here and there, after one year, I hired a full time editor. So after one year, we went from two to three. The growth of the audience and the demand for time to grow the business supported the growth of additional people. So let me ask, how did you and Amanda pay your rent that first year? How did you feed yourselves? If you didn't have the support of a network, how did you manage to pay the bills while doing this full time? From an artistic perspective, it's very draining to research, write, direct, edit and publish every day by yourself (keep this point in mind, I'm about to drive it home). Then, we hired Ellie to help assist me with all of the business stuff (she is still with us and has way grown out of that role). After Amanda left, I eventually hired support to help get the whole business together, tight, up to date and clear. Now we are growing as we manage other projects as well. We were and still are in a start-up mentality which is a different kind of place to be for us, compared to an artists who just needs a place to do their art. The thing I figured out over time - and this is the main point I wanted to share - is that it only takes one or two but you have to factor in endurance. Its not a
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
took pictures at your Christmas party last night, and you used them on your blog, and then that photographer sent you a bill for $3,000 wouldn't you be a bit miffed? Especially after you lost tens of thousands of dollars on such party? (PodTech lost a lot of money on the Vloggies, and, indeed on the videoblogging network it was trying to build). Today PodTech is turning away from videoblogging and more toward corporate content which doesn't pay videobloggers at all - so we all lose. Myself? I'm moving to something new next month - it'll be fun and I want to take the community with me, but my eyes are far less idealistic than I was when I left Microsoft and thought that this community would really be fun to work with. It doesn't take much business insight to see that this industry, er, community, is having a tough time coming up with a business model. It doesn't take sharp eyes to see that this community hasn't rocked and rolled, even while other video communities have. Maybe there won't be a good business model for videoblogging (although I think I've found one and would like to get more people on board), but it seems to me that when a company is helping pay videobloggers that this community should have done everything possible to make sure it succeeded. Me? I'm going to do everything possible that Zadi and Steve succeed, and succeed wildly. That's how I'll give back to the community. I really appreciate this note, it's a great Christmas present and makes me feel like doing even more to help this community. Robert Scoble ### _ From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gena Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:41 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble Robert I want to specifically address an issue you have brought up and I don't think you were being heard. You took a lot of heat concerning the Podtech - Censorship of Loren debacle. Words were said and mud was flung in all directions. Upon reflection, I don't think folks separated you from the company or in fact the actual person that generated the situation in the first place. I think we as humans start to classify folks as personalities and not as real people. I met a very nice person (this would be you) a few years back. We talked as regular folks. To be honest I tend to do that with everyone I met. But others treat you as The Scoble with reverence. The other side of that seems to be intense anger when there is a disagreement. It is not right but there ya go, it is human. Part of it is the celebrity thing. The other side of it is somedays we just do not act according to our better natures. I didn't speak up and say Hey, he didn't cause this situation why are you going after him? I have been to other events where folks wouldn't part their lips toward me because I'm not an A - Lister. This is a good thing as it cuts down on the amount of BS I have to produce. I'm aiming for zero emissions. When I look at the comments section of your blog those folks play rough. I don't know how you can plow through that stuff on a daily basis. What is scary is that these folks like your writing but are almost cannibalistic in how they respond to your posts. You may or may not have good reason to deal with this group again. I don't know. But I do want to say that speaking for myself only I acknowledge the dog piling you received and it wasn't right. For whatever part I played I'm sorry and I heard what you said. Gena [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Sorry, Correction. Irina tells me she was working for Top Ten Sources and Dealmaker Media when she started talking with Furrier about coming to PodTech. Sorry for making that factual error. Robert Scoble [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Just a side track I guess on what may be a rhetorical question but a question nonetheless: On Dec 26, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Eddie Codel wrote: How many people do you think it takes to put out a daily Rocketboom episode? In context of your show on Podtech, along with the very nice budget that you had, as well as all of the business worries on someone else's watch, I would suggest just two, as you had. I think three is a great production number for a team but your budget would of been able to support more talent, it was up to you to determine the creative side I think. Over time, the success of the show is pretty much in your hands. Its all about the content and what you can do with your time. Of course there are a huge mound of barriers and bureaucracies and things that are truly not fair that get in the way, but I still think, at the end of the day, its what you can produce, content-wise that must build its own support. It seems like this must be the perspective or mind-set that you would need to be the most effective under the situation of deciding to go with a network like Podtech. Correct me if Im wrong, but I always saw Podtech as a record label that supports artists, not entrepreneurs or business people. It was meant for the people who dont want to deal with all the business, they just want to do one thing: make great content. If they just can do that one thing well, they are entrusting the record label to do the rest. Its more intertwined than that really, but thats the gist of what I mean to say. The record label of course expects or at least hopes that the artist will make some kind of work that allot of people will want to see. With Rocketboom in particular, we do not have the support of a network. So its different, we do all of the business and try to grow everything ourselves. Along with some help from Josh Kinberg and Kenyatta Cheese, I pretty much did the whole thing daily myself for the first 6 months with Amanda Congdon pitching in a couple of hours per show. Eventually we we were both doing it full time. While I had some editing support here and there, after one year, I hired a full time editor. So after one year, we went from two to three. The growth of the audience and the demand for time to grow the business supported the growth of additional people. From an artistic perspective, it's very draining to research, write, direct, edit and publish every day by yourself (keep this point in mind, I'm about to drive it home). Then, we hired Ellie to help assist me with all of the business stuff (she is still with us and has way grown out of that role). After Amanda left, I eventually hired support to help get the whole business together, tight, up to date and clear. Now we are growing as we manage other projects as well. We were and still are in a start-up mentality which is a different kind of place to be for us, compared to an artists who just needs a place to do their art. The thing I figured out over time - and this is the main point I wanted to share - is that it only takes one or two but you have to factor in endurance. Its not a sustainable kind of lifestyle for the long term. Because the content must strike a chord in people which justifies the budget, the budget should go up and down depending on prospects and historical performance. While I have always been outspoken about Podtech, my theory has only been on one angle, which is content; I think Robert has that down and continues to invent his own direction as he goes, but no one else on Podtech seemed to strike a chord with people in a way that was memetic for some reason. While I have very little idea and almost no opinion on the inner-working of Podtech, Eddie, I think perhaps in theory, you had two people who were capable and you also had the rest of the business taken care of for you (you were prepaid) - you had full times sales, web support, community, all kinds of stuff that you didn't have to deal with on a day to day basis that others do. If you were looking for help and direction, why not try to study Scoble more closely on what he does. At least he does whatever he he does well so to having him around on a daily basis would be a huge resource. Isn't it traditionally the case that people have mentors who help them to grow their craft? If not by support, by method? Anyway, setting all of that aside, how many people do you think it should take you to do what you want to do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Robert I want to specifically address an issue you have brought up and I don't think you were being heard. You took a lot of heat concerning the Podtech - Censorship of Loren debacle. Words were said and mud was flung in all directions. Upon reflection, I don't think folks separated you from the company or in fact the actual person that generated the situation in the first place. I think we as humans start to classify folks as personalities and not as real people. I met a very nice person (this would be you) a few years back. We talked as regular folks. To be honest I tend to do that with everyone I met. But others treat you as The Scoble with reverence. The other side of that seems to be intense anger when there is a disagreement. It is not right but there ya go, it is human. Part of it is the celebrity thing. The other side of it is somedays we just do not act according to our better natures. I didn't speak up and say Hey, he didn't cause this situation why are you going after him? I have been to other events where folks wouldn't part their lips toward me because I'm not an A - Lister. This is a good thing as it cuts down on the amount of BS I have to produce. I'm aiming for zero emissions. When I look at the comments section of your blog those folks play rough. I don't know how you can plow through that stuff on a daily basis. What is scary is that these folks like your writing but are almost cannibalistic in how they respond to your posts. You may or may not have good reason to deal with this group again. I don't know. But I do want to say that speaking for myself only I acknowledge the dog piling you received and it wasn't right. For whatever part I played I'm sorry and I heard what you said. Gena
RE: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
, 2007 10:41 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble Robert I want to specifically address an issue you have brought up and I don't think you were being heard. You took a lot of heat concerning the Podtech - Censorship of Loren debacle. Words were said and mud was flung in all directions. Upon reflection, I don't think folks separated you from the company or in fact the actual person that generated the situation in the first place. I think we as humans start to classify folks as personalities and not as real people. I met a very nice person (this would be you) a few years back. We talked as regular folks. To be honest I tend to do that with everyone I met. But others treat you as The Scoble with reverence. The other side of that seems to be intense anger when there is a disagreement. It is not right but there ya go, it is human. Part of it is the celebrity thing. The other side of it is somedays we just do not act according to our better natures. I didn't speak up and say Hey, he didn't cause this situation why are you going after him? I have been to other events where folks wouldn't part their lips toward me because I'm not an A - Lister. This is a good thing as it cuts down on the amount of BS I have to produce. I'm aiming for zero emissions. When I look at the comments section of your blog those folks play rough. I don't know how you can plow through that stuff on a daily basis. What is scary is that these folks like your writing but are almost cannibalistic in how they respond to your posts. You may or may not have good reason to deal with this group again. I don't know. But I do want to say that speaking for myself only I acknowledge the dog piling you received and it wasn't right. For whatever part I played I'm sorry and I heard what you said. Gena [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
to YouTube, Blip.tv, Kyte, or any of the other companies who are trying to make it possible for you to distribute your work (and get paid - I know at least one videoblogger who gets paid more than $10,000 per month thanks to YouTube's advertising deals)? Some of you have, and that's always appreciated. But most of you remain silent, or don't look to help out and make sure there are healthy businesses here. There's tons of others, too. As to PodTech's run-in with Lan Bui, there's a reason why we were arrogant in response: those pictures were taken at our party: the Vloggies. An employee used them without checking because she assumed that the community would support us and that pictures taken at our own event could be used without worrying too much and it was on a sign, not something that would make us tons of money. Turns out she was very wrong (how many of you have never made a mistake?), but if someone took pictures at your Christmas party last night, and you used them on your blog, and then that photographer sent you a bill for $3,000 wouldn't you be a bit miffed? Especially after you lost tens of thousands of dollars on such party? (PodTech lost a lot of money on the Vloggies, and, indeed on the videoblogging network it was trying to build). Today PodTech is turning away from videoblogging and more toward corporate content which doesn't pay videobloggers at all - so we all lose. Myself? I'm moving to something new next month - it'll be fun and I want to take the community with me, but my eyes are far less idealistic than I was when I left Microsoft and thought that this community would really be fun to work with. It doesn't take much business insight to see that this industry, er, community, is having a tough time coming up with a business model. It doesn't take sharp eyes to see that this community hasn't rocked and rolled, even while other video communities have. Maybe there won't be a good business model for videoblogging (although I think I've found one and would like to get more people on board), but it seems to me that when a company is helping pay videobloggers that this community should have done everything possible to make sure it succeeded. Me? I'm going to do everything possible that Zadi and Steve succeed, and succeed wildly. That's how I'll give back to the community. I really appreciate this note, it's a great Christmas present and makes me feel like doing even more to help this community. Robert Scoble ### _ From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com[mailto: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gena Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:41 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble Robert I want to specifically address an issue you have brought up and I don't think you were being heard. You took a lot of heat concerning the Podtech - Censorship of Loren debacle. Words were said and mud was flung in all directions. Upon reflection, I don't think folks separated you from the company or in fact the actual person that generated the situation in the first place. I think we as humans start to classify folks as personalities and not as real people. I met a very nice person (this would be you) a few years back. We talked as regular folks. To be honest I tend to do that with everyone I met. But others treat you as The Scoble with reverence. The other side of that seems to be intense anger when there is a disagreement. It is not right but there ya go, it is human. Part of it is the celebrity thing. The other side of it is somedays we just do not act according to our better natures. I didn't speak up and say Hey, he didn't cause this situation why are you going after him? I have been to other events where folks wouldn't part their lips toward me because I'm not an A - Lister. This is a good thing as it cuts down on the amount of BS I have to produce. I'm aiming for zero emissions. When I look at the comments section of your blog those folks play rough. I don't know how you can plow through that stuff on a daily basis. What is scary is that these folks like your writing but are almost cannibalistic in how they respond to your posts. You may or may not have good reason to deal with this group again. I don't know. But I do want to say that speaking for myself only I acknowledge the dog piling you received and it wasn't right. For whatever part I played I'm sorry and I heard what you said. Gena [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- Jeffrey Taylor Mobile: +33625497654 Fax: +33177722734 Skype: thejeffreytaylor Googlechat/Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://twitter.com/jeffreytaylor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble
Jeffrey: Podtech should have known that Irina had a huge network of influential people who love her, and rightly or wrongly took her firing personally. In retrospect, it could have been done better. The problem is that at some point or another it's a business. If money keeps flowing out and not coming in at an increasing rate eventually investors get itchy. PodTech was going through its own managerial problems at this time too, which caused almost every problem you detailed below. You might have seen that the CEO is no longer the CEO. You might notice that I'm off to do something else (even though my show was pretty damn profitable). And that almost everything else is getting closed down except that which brings in revenues. I won't say anything bad about Irina, but I've learned many times in my career that whenever you hear about someone getting fired from a company that there's more than one story. Keep in mind that Irina had been laid off when we hired her and we invested a TON of money in her career and in Eddie's (and we even let Eddie keep thousands of dollars in gear so they could keep doing their show - that's more than I'll get from PodTech when I leave). And sorry for beating up on the community, I hope it comes out of this and sees some real success stories. Sorry that PodTech wasn't one of them, although PodTech is still living to see another day and still deserves our support. Robert Scoble ### _ From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:43 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com; Robert Scoble Subject: Re: [videoblogging] My Amends To Robert Scoble Robert, I'm really sorry that your first venture out of Microsoft didn't turn out to be an overwhelming success. It wasn't entirely your fault, as things like this go. But I am afraid you're trying to hang your baggage about this failure (and I think failure is a good thing) on this community. Podtech could not have done a better job of communicating through it's actions, regardless of its intentions, that Podtech did not care about videobloggers anymore. Long before now. I really don't want to crap on the goodwill sent by Gena, and I am the first person to do my best to see both side of an argument. 1. Firing Irina, saying that Podtech's focus had changed and publicly saying how much Podtech had spent on her was a signal to us that Podtech did not want to focus on this community anymore and wanted to turn towards corporate content. I saw nary a negative comment about Podtech before Irina. Podtech should have known that Irina had a huge network of influential people who love her, and rightly or wrongly took her firing personally. In retrospect, it could have been done better. 2. The Lan and Vloggies controversies did not help. This was an opportunity for Podtech, at the very least, to communicate their respect for the community as they changed their business plans. Still, it was a debacle on both sides from start to finish. Total dramafest. 3. Podtech is just as responsible for the ill-will created as this community may be, and the sad thing is that the goodwill cost of certain decisions was not calculated before the decisions were made. It cost Podtech more to fire Irina, to not take care of Lan immediately and to be a bit greedy with the Vloggies than it saved. As for the rest, I really hope you'll get a cooler head about this. Blip gets thanks and lauded here all the time. Many others do as well, and the ones that don't get our eyeballs and sponsorship/VC cash that puts food on their tables (and in some cases, Baccarat crystal and Royal Doulton china on their tables, too). They'll be fine, because you're absolutely right when you say entities don't need us (whatever us is) to do well. I don't think that many of us think that at all. I really hope you do well at Fast Company or wherever you end up, Robert. You deserve success simply for having the massive courage it takes be your authentic self in all forms of media. And I am sorry we live in a world in which being playfully, passionately excited about something, like you are about technology, is given such a nasty reception at times. On 26/12/2007, Robert Scoble robertscoble@ mailto:robertscoble%40hotmail.com hotmail.com wrote: Gena, Thanks, this was a very nice Christmas present and a nice way to end a really great day. Someone just forwarded me your email and I appreciate that too. I haven't been able to respond over on the Cheryl page because it keeps saying my comments are spam, which is funny too. Oh well. One thing I wanted to say over there is that PodTech invested more than a million dollars in this community (seriously, I have the receipts, we hired dozens of videobloggers and even had a few on our staff, including people who are very active on this group). I've personally got tons of people here paid, some of which got paid more
