[VIHUELA] Re: [LUTE] Re: What is the historical vihuela?
Antonio doesn't read this list, so he has someone send over emails to the lute list for him to comment on. As a leading scholar, he is sorely missed. As for the Dias: Corona and Hodgson are dead against it and probably forever will be. Batov, Griffiths and Romanillos are all for it, and probably always will be. My view? The feast is laid out before us. Don't quibble about the cutlery. Let's eat!! Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
Alexander, You say we have absolutely no idea what sort of barring arrangement violas might have had. But surely we - or makers like you - do have some idea. Some violas look very similar to vihuelas, and were made at roughly the same time, and not geographically distant and play the same sort of sophisticated, polyphonic music. It would at least be reasonable Or, do you think there is a possibility that violas had la much more complicated lute-like barring? (Or, Monica-style; we just don't know, will never know and it's all (mere?) speculation... ) Oh dear - I hope I don't sound too negative, but I am always sceptical of elaborate theories which are based on unprovable hypotheses. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: What is the historical vihuela?
According to Bermudez, the string-length is 727 cm., quite large for a solo instrument, but taking into account its late date, and the fact that it probably was the instrument used by Santa Mariana de Jesus to accompany herself singing devout songs, it seems likely that it may have been played strummed, despite the fact that it is a six-cpourse instrument. On reflection, as a member of the fair sex I am a bit sceptical about this (as with everthing else!).I would find it impossible to play even the simplest of music on an instrument with a string length of 72.7. Even some of the most basic alfabeto chords involve quite wide left hand stretches and awkward string clearances - chord N for example, not to metnion L and (one of Corbetta's favourites). Having a 6th string would complicate matters. I can't see either why there should be any advantage in having a longer string length when accompanying, unless it is to tune to a lower pitch. This is not necessary if you are a member of the fair sex accompanying yourself either. Perhaps Sr. Mariana was a giant with a baritone voice! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Doubts over the additional 'peghole'
Martyn, I've explained this point already a few times, i.e. why the original _thinner_ peg wouldn't cut through the purfling but just be next to it, as well as why it is not surrounded by the ornamental pattern. Also it is not unusual for pegs to cut through stripes and purflings of peghead ornament on original guitars (there are plenty of examples of this). If you are really so sceptical about my way of reasoning as regards to the purpose of the central hole in the Dias why can't you propose an alternative, from your point of view right reason for its origin (no straps and nails in the wall please!). Alexander - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vihuela Net vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Doubts over the additional 'peghole' Further to all this, I'm not at all persuaded that the extra 'peg hole' is original: as mentioned in previous communications with Alexander, this particular hole cuts through the inlaid decoration rather than being incorporated into the overall pattern as with the pegholes proper. rgds MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] lutes in Spain and holiday problems
Hi, Peter and all, wow, what an impressive list... Regarding your question about people in Galicia: the luthier Cesar Arias ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) lives and works there. Regarding the question about the rejection of the lute because its apparently moorish shape in XVI Century Spain, -totally obsessed, it's true, with pureza de sangre (blood purity) and being cristiano viejo, non converse-, and considering how easy it is to make the mistake of projecting on the past our own knowledge and background, (believing we and them share many cultural particularities), I am not at all convinced by the idea that the lute was rejected in the Spain of Carlos I, Felipe II and Felipe III. Let's look at it closer: Although jews went to the exile in 1492, there was still a lot of moriscos which remained in Spain till 1609, when the king reluctantly -they were mostly skilled and specialized workers- ordered its expulsion. First item: during the whole XVI Century were moriscos in Spain. Historians estimate in around 300,000 the persons that had to leave in 1609. How much is that in relation with the total? Quite a lot. In 1591, when the very first census was made, the spanish population was around 7,880,000. A small village with less than 2,000 habitants was considered a city. Santiago had around 5,000, Bilbao no more than 7,000, Toledo around 50,000. Madrid, where the court was at the end of the century, had around 60,000 inhabitants. Second item: The social web was totally different from ours: today it is very easy, living in a city, to avoid meeting the neighbours on the building's staircase: it happens actually all the time, and one must make an effort to meet somebody. ;-) That was in those days absolutely impossible: everybody knew everybody... The moriscos lived in close contact with the rest, because everybody lived in close contact with everybody. So it is difficult to know how much this or that usus belonged in exclusivity to this or that group. Our sense of intimacy is totally different from theirs. Read for instance Norbert Elias, or Richard Sennett. Third item: Finally, they lacked also the historical consciousness we posess. We_do_know about the lute's moorish genealogy, but did_they_know it too? That's the central question, I guess... Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo Peter Forrester wrote: Dear all, The recent mention on the vihuela website of Spanish lutes as being non-Christian(?) has prompted me to submit the following. My wife and I were on holiday in north west Spain recently. The group that we were with was mostly concerned with Roman remains, of course I was looking out for musical instruments. We visited Santiago and also saw fine sets of musical angels around three of the cathedral doors in Leon. There were various guitar/vihuela shapes in several locations, mostly out of camera range. One 4 course (?) guitar in Lugo cathedral had a vaulted back. In Astorga there are carvings of lutes in very prominent positions above both main doors. Above the earlier doorway, circa 1550-60, a roundel with a low-relief lute is paired with a bowed instrument, probably a vielle. The later baroque doorway has a guitar or vihuela paired with the lute. My bus was leaving in rather less than fifteen minutes, however I decide to dash through both the cathedral and its museum to look for similar pairs. There were none, however a very fine late renaissance/baroque organ case has several angels playing instruments. Included are a pair of small guitars. That on the left looks shallow and vihuela-like, that on the right is deeper and may very well be a real instrument, in particular the pegs seemed clear and not sculpted. (The organ case is quite high). I bought a guide book and caught my bus. Looking through the guide book (printed in 1991) I found a picture of the organ but the right-hand guitar was not there. In its place is a small cittern. These are of course even rarer than original guitars, especially in Spain from where I know of only one fingerboard, from an Armada shipwreck. Also in the guide, and missing or unnoticed by me, is a large free-standing figure above the earlier doorway playing a large bowed vihuela (?) with a flat tied bridge, similar to those shown by Ian Woodfield but dating from later than 1550. Are there any musicians or instrument makers in north west Spain who could investigate further? Another lute in an unexpectedly prominent position is shown with its case in a wood inlay panel in the Escorial, again rather high to photograph, near the entrance to the Patio of los Reyes? Peter Forrester To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Doubts over the additional 'peghole'
Alexander, I understand your point precisely but, in my view the weight of evidence lies towards not regarding it as an original hole: in this case the maker went to pains to include the pegholes proper in the inlay design; I'm struggling to understand why he would be so cavalier with this other hole if it was hisoriginal work. I really have no firm view of what it's there for - that's not really the point is it. Other than your straps/nails all I can think of is that it is later work. rgds Martyn Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn, I've explained this point already a few times, i.e. why the original _thinner_ peg wouldn't cut through the purfling but just be next to it, as well as why it is not surrounded by the ornamental pattern. Also it is not unusual for pegs to cut through stripes and purflings of peghead ornament on original guitars (there are plenty of examples of this). If you are really so sceptical about my way of reasoning as regards to the purpose of the central hole in the Dias why can't you propose an alternative, from your point of view right reason for its origin (no straps and nails in the wall please!). Alexander - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Vihuela Net Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Doubts over the additional 'peghole' Further to all this, I'm not at all persuaded that the extra 'peg hole' is original: as mentioned in previous communications with Alexander, this particular hole cuts through the inlaid decoration rather than being incorporated into the overall pattern as with the pegholes proper. rgds MH - Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: lutes in Spain and holiday problems
Our sense of intimacy is totally different from theirs. Read for instance Norbert Elias, or Richard Sennett. Dear Manolo, Welcome to the vihuela list. Your contributions are VERY welcome. Please tell me more about these authors, and why you mention them. Rob MacKillop www.musicintime.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: What is the historical vihuela?
Monica Hall wrote: On reflection, as a member of the fair sex I am a bit sceptical about this (as with everthing else!).I would find it impossible to play even the simplest of music on an instrument with a string length of 72.7. You need to have a chat with Lynda Sayce. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: What is the hysterical vihuela?
Monica Hall wrote: I can't see either why there should be any advantage in having a longer string length when accompanying, unless it is to tune to a lower pitch. This is not necessary if you are a member of the fair sex accompanying yourself either. But an alto singing a song written in soprano range (and vice versa) is just as in need of transposition as a bass singing a song written in tenor range (and vice versa). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: What is the historical vihuela?
I would agree with you regarding the stretches in chords such as N and L, but, while they might have been favourites of Corbetta, they are not necessary for simple chordal accompaniments as one would presume Santa Mariana might have played. I would be tempted to imagine that the Saint would not have needed to venture beyond some run-of-the-mill chords such as C, I, A, B, +, etc. As a matter of fact, this is precisely what most of the Mexican amateur guitar-players do (surely you must know that all Mexicans play the guitar ) Yes - indeed...! I don't want to quibble too much about this but actually chords A and B are not that simple to finger and involve stretches across the fingerboard, particularly chord B. With a sixth course all chords would need to be re-fingered. Of course we don't know how the instrument was tuned - if as Bermudo suggests in one place, it was simple tuned to a major common chord she could just have strummed the same chord on the open courses... over and over again. But what I am really asking is - what proof is there, other than oral tradition, that the instrument really belonged to her, that it was built in the early 17th century, and has never been altered since? Holy relics can often be of dubious authenticity! Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book you refer too. Only have various articles published earlier. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: What is the hysterical vihuela?
Monica Hall wrote: I can't see either why there should be any advantage in having a longer string length when accompanying, unless it is to tune to a lower pitch. This is not necessary if you are a member of the fair sex accompanying yourself either. But an alto singing a song written in soprano range (and vice versa) is just as in need of transposition as a bass singing a song written in tenor range (and vice versa). But the transposition doesn't have to be to a lower pitch, only to a different key. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
