[VIHUELA] Re: What is the historical vihuela?
On 05 Nov 2005 14:17 Monica Hall wrote: Yes. The question in my mind was whether the instrument could be confidently dated from the 1620s or whether it might actually date from the second half of the 18th century. It would be most unusual for a guitar from the second half of the 18th century to have its string length as long as the Quito. As you probably know, with virtually universal adaptation of open-wound and close-wound strings for plucked and bowed instruments in the second part of the 18th century the tendency was heading in the opposite direction - to shorter string length on guitars. In absolute figures, anything longer than 67cm would be rather unusual. The earliest recorded use of overspun strings I have come across so far in Spanish sources is in the 'Inventory of Theodosio Dalp's property ...' of 26 February 1715 that lists One lathe to wind strings with silver ... (Un torno de torzer cuerdas de plata thasado todo en cuarenta ...) At least one of the ways to date the Quito instrument more precisely is to conduct dendrological analysis of its soundboard wood; looking for wear marks on the bridge can also give some idea how the instrument was used etc .. A similar research that was conducted with the Chambure and Jaquemart-Andre instruments in Paris would be ideal (the results are published in 'Aux origines de la guitare: la vihuela de mano', Cite de la Museque, 2004) would be ideal. And not only for the Quito but for the Dias too but I'd better not start ... The string length however is only really relevant in so far as this has any bearing on its authenticity. I would question whether a female player, who probably didn't have the technical ability of Rolf Lislevand, would have been able to play anything meaningful on an instrument of that size. I've put an image of a lady here who plays a rather large guitar: www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/large-guitar.htm However, whether she was able to play anything meaningful or just posing is hardly possible to assess. In the mean time I have had a lengthy and very helpful reply from Antonio which has answered all my questions in so far as this is possible. ??? I am aware that a number of baroque guitars have long string lengths. I don't know how people manage to play them.I understand that Linda Sayce had an exact copy of the Stradivarius guitar made which has a string length of 74.1 and she found it unplayable. Apparently there is at least one more guitar by Stradivarius (made in 1681) with the same body dimensions as the one in Oxford (i.e. made on the same mould as is often the case with other instruments of Stradivarius) and so would have been its original string length (the guitar have been altered to 6 strings with subsequent shortening of the neck). It was commissioned by the Guistiliani, aristocratic Venetian family, so it may perhaps give some idea what sort of music was played on it (hopefully it wasn't only used to pose with). It would be interesting to hear the views of the gentlemen on this list as to the optimum string lengths for vihuelas and guitars. Not a problem. As for the string lengths of modern reproductions of vihuelas, common sense would be the best guide, supposedly this was also the case in 16th century Spain. Most vihuela players nowadays will be happy with c. 60cm string length for the most demanding vihuela repertoire although some might prefer c.56 - 58cm depending I suppose on their skills. The vast majority of the vihuela solo pieces can be played on c.64 - 66cm but this can go up to 70cm and more for fairly basic song accompaniments. Considering that this was one of the main uses of the instrument during the 16th century, c.68 - 72cm could well be the string length range for a typical 16th century vihuela. I personally feel comfortable with a good number of vihuela pieces, for instance, on my 66cm string vihuela in E and it still remains in my plans to make a 72 - 73 cm string vihuela, to use it for a larger instrument in Valderrabano duets (a fifth apart). Nobody can ever be sure of the precise figures for the string lengths of historic vihuelas but it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a great deal of discrepancy in the sizes of the consort of 16th century vihuelas (for example of the four sizes which are needed to perform the above mentioned Valderrabano duets) from that of mid - late 16th century Italian lutes. So the upper limit could well be extended to c.80cm or more (i.e. close to the-would-be original string length of the Jaquemart-Andre vihuela). Although largely speculative, there is at least one important reason (apart from similarity in repertoire and functions of the two instruments) that led me to such a broad speculation: that the makers and players of 16th vihuelas and lutes (either in Italy or in Spain) could well have been relying on the same string suppliers, from places such as Munich, Rome and
[VIHUELA] Doc Rossi's webpage
Doc Rossi's webpage can now be found on the www.musicintime.co.uk website. There can be found an introductory overview of various citterns, with tuning chart, an academic essay on the cittern/guittar in Colonial America, the Forward from his cittern tutor, and links to his recordings. More scores and mp3 files will follow in time, so stay tuned. I'm really pleased with the way Music In Time is developing, and especially pleased that we have contributors as esteemed as Doc Rossi. Rob MacKillop www.musicintime.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela and viola Alexander, You say we have absolutely no idea what sort of barring arrangement violas might have had. But surely we - or makers like you - do have some idea. Some violas look very similar to vihuelas, and were made at roughly the same time, and not geographically distant and play the same sort of sophisticated, polyphonic music. It would at least be reasonable conjecture and certainly not idle speculation to bar a viola like a vihuela, wouldn't it? I have the idea that early guitars (and for you there's no difference between 16th/17th century guitars and vihuelas?) had a couple of bars on the soundboard and a couple of bars (or three?) on the back. No doubt there are a million subtleties of exactly how these bars are fashioned. So there's a tradtion of barring flat-backed, plucked instruments and violas could just be part of that tradition. I agree with most that you say here, Stuart. And my reasoning goes exactly along the same lines. Or, do you think there is a possibility that violas had la much more complicated lute-like barring? Yes, this possibility cannot be excluded. In particularly as regards those illustrations where somewhat 'lute-type' rose is depicted (as in our beloved dai Libri painting). I also like the two Japanese paintings: however similar the instruments look like their bodies are of different depths, the ribs and pegheads are also different. (Or, Monica-style; we just don't know, will never know and it's all (mere?) speculation... ) Not really. The very idea that the resonating box as such didn't change much (if at all!) from the time of the viola da mano / vihuela makes more sense to me than just abrupt rejection of 'we'll never know' style. I simply cannot imagine anything extraordinary in its construction (and I wonder if anybody will) that would set us back from re-creating a fairly reasonable reconstruction of either vihuela or viola da mano or 4-course guitar. A lot of makers do this already simply following their intuition; and this cannot be entirely wrong. But those deeper-bodied violas with deeply incurved sides - the ones that look like they could be bowed as well as plucked; might they have a different barring arrangement, more viol-like? ( I have no idea how viols are barred.) I wonder what you think, as a maker, of the possibility of an instrument that could equally be bowed or played with the fingers? It somehow seems unlikely to me. It doesn't seem likely to me either. Well viols were ocassionally plucked even in the early 18th century but that's different, if only in that sort of way. Perhaps that's why I don't like Jimmy Page's idea of bowing his guitar, sounds rather boring (in particularly on his early sessions) ... Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: What is the historical vihuela?
I have a friend, Tyler Kaiser, who owns a Dan Larson replica of the 74 cm guitar. He has absolutely no problems at this length for the solo literature. ed At 07:19 PM 11/10/2005 +, Alexander Batov wrote: I am aware that a number of baroque guitars have long string lengths. I don't know how people manage to play them.I understand that Linda Sayce had an exact copy of the Stradivarius guitar made which has a string length of 74.1 and she found it unplayable. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: What is the historical vihuela?
- Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 11:25 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: What is the historical vihuela? I have a friend, Tyler Kaiser, who owns a Dan Larson replica of the 74 cm guitar. He has absolutely no problems at this length for the solo literature. ed At 07:19 PM 11/10/2005 +, Alexander Batov wrote: I am aware that a number of baroque guitars have long string lengths. I don't know how people manage to play them.I understand that Linda Sayce had an exact copy of the Stradivarius guitar made which has a string length of 74.1 and she found it unplayable. Thank you for this information, Edward. Only what you quoted as my words are actually not my (they were in the context of my reply to Monica), or perhaps you didn't : ... I know rather well that guitars with this sort of length are playable. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
