[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:27 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 > i.e. you're correlating what you observed in person on surviving > instruments > with what that document says, That's exactly right. > and why others might have passed over things > mentioned therein which didn't at first make sense to them, etc. I'm not exactly sure about the others. Although, I suppose, the text was out there for quite a while. From what I know, Jose Romanillos made the most sensible interpretation of a couple sentences from it. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 > > Speaking of different sizes, I just got this picture yesterday. Extremely > > small bodied vihuela with rather wide neck. Anonymous Spanish painting, > > sadly dated no better than simply "16th century". > > > > La Virgen con el Niño y San Juanito > > Congratulations, Roger, on another great find! How many more ahead ...? :)) Thanks. More!?, you want more! -- so do I ;-) Like I've said, I'm always convinced that the most recent one is the last of them, until tomorrow ;') > One detail of this small instrument seems quite remarkable to me: the sides > (or body outline) curving in at the junction with the neck. There are few > vihuela depictions where this feature is also present: on that newly found > fresco in Valencia that you informed us about, also on the vihuela > illustration in 'Venegas de Henestrosa' and some others. The Iberian guitar > c.1740 in the Edinburgh university collection also has slightly incurving > sides at the neck / body junction. ya, that's that tell-tale in-turned shoulder contour I was talking about the other day. At one point I was calling them "angel-wing" shoulders and waist-cuts, because that's what they look like, and they often terminate in an out-swept curved peaked wing-tip at the cut. Here's some more of those, on pluckers, the shoulder or/and wing-tip http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar_GasparOrGiorgioGhisi_1557_det.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/vihuela_shaped-like_Ferrari-Saronno-Viola_deta.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/guitar-baroque_NicolasPOUSSIN_Bacchanal_1628-30_det a.jpg I still need a date on that second-last one, the relief-carved one, if any of you'all ever get one, ball-park even (is ok). > > It may well be that this feature was inherited from some early forms of the > vihuela, perhaps while still in its viola da mano- / viol-like incarnation, > with cornered body at the waist area. I think so. It's a common feature on both plucked and bowed waist-cut models in the very early days. > > Thanks Alexander. I'm not up to date on all the details of your > > researches, > > nor which particular things you're wanting to point out that are new, > > interesting, curious, validating of some observation or argument, or > > perhaps > > revealing something contrary to commonly held assumptions and beliefs, > > etc. > > So could you please elaborate a little more for me on what you mean when > > you > > say "I think I now understand why". > > Well, I suppose it would have been difficult for me to make sense of what > the Regimento text is all about without, say, having a look inside the Dias > vihuela (actually, it is now more accessible then it was, thanks to the > change of the curator at the RCM collection of instruments!) Or, which is > even rarer, one of the surviving guitars by Sanguino. These are, in a way, > virtually the 'encyclopaedias' of the Spanish tradition of guitar / vihuela > making. > > Having said this, I do not claim that my interpretation is totally correct > in every single point. It is more like the beginning of the process to > interpreting this very important document, perhaps the most comprehensive > one in its kind, on of the 16th century vihuela construction. > > Alexander ok, I see. I thought maybe there was one particular bit of back-story I might have been missing or not linking, and I guess you just explained it -- i.e. you're correlating what you observed in person on surviving instruments with what that document says, and why others might have passed over things mentioned therein which didn't at first make sense to them, etc. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
> Speaking of different sizes, I just got this picture yesterday. Extremely > small bodied vihuela with rather wide neck. Anonymous Spanish painting, > sadly dated no better than simply "16th century". > > La Virgen con el Niño y San Juanito Congratulations, Roger, on another great find! How many more ahead ...? :)) One detail of this small instrument seems quite remarkable to me: the sides (or body outline) curving in at the junction with the neck. There are few vihuela depictions where this feature is also present: on that newly found fresco in Valencia that you informed us about, also on the vihuela illustration in 'Venegas de Henestrosa' and some others. The Iberian guitar c.1740 in the Edinburgh university collection also has slightly incurving sides at the neck / body junction. It may well be that this feature was inherited from some early forms of the vihuela, perhaps while still in its viola da mano- / viol-like incarnation, with cornered body at the waist area. > Thanks Alexander. I'm not up to date on all the details of your > researches, > nor which particular things you're wanting to point out that are new, > interesting, curious, validating of some observation or argument, or > perhaps > revealing something contrary to commonly held assumptions and beliefs, > etc. > So could you please elaborate a little more for me on what you mean when > you > say "I think I now understand why". Well, I suppose it would have been difficult for me to make sense of what the Regimento text is all about without, say, having a look inside the Dias vihuela (actually, it is now more accessible then it was, thanks to the change of the curator at the RCM collection of instruments!) Or, which is even rarer, one of the surviving guitars by Sanguino. These are, in a way, virtually the 'encyclopaedias' of the Spanish tradition of guitar / vihuela making. Having said this, I do not claim that my interpretation is totally correct in every single point. It is more like the beginning of the process to interpreting this very important document, perhaps the most comprehensive one in its kind, on of the 16th century vihuela construction. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon -- nother new waist-cut viola, 1483,Italian
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon -- nother new waist-cut viola, 1483,Italian > anywho, I had actually stopped actively searching for new pictures a while > ago, I thought . . . . . but, I had to at least follow a little more of that last trail, the "Book of Hours" Illuminations that is, and rather than take up more bandwidth with a separate heading I'll insert them here. Here's a couple more to add to the mix, bowed-focused, but still in the mix. The full plates are from a c.1490 "Sforza" Italian Book of Hours, 206 pages of, online here . . . http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/controller/textsearch?text=Sfor za+Hours&x=12&y=6 here's two details: First, is a near matched set and sized pair of clearly fretted oval lutes, one plucked one bowed, the bowed one is played "on the arm", or da braccio. At least one of them is flat-backed, maybe both. http://www.thecipher.com/pluck-n-bow_SforzaBkHrs_Italy_c1490_deta.jpg The second, is a composite of (only) three (of the total five or six available therein) iterations of this same single instrument who's details I find very interesting. http://www.thecipher.com/arm-viols_SforzaBkHrs_Italy_c1490_comp-deta.jpg Small, clearly fretted, four string, arm viols, waist-cut, thin ribs, descant sized, played on the arm, two pegs per side (would have to be), etc. Again, this is 1490, Italy, putting them present, concurrent, and competitive with, any early viola-bodied 3 string fretless violin one might find in the record. This is a full 45 years earlier than Ferrari's Soronno Cathedral fresco with it's so called "complete violin family" portrait (for example) -- who's large arm viol I suspect is not a 3 string violin at all but a 4 or 5 string viola sized _viol_ played on the arm. The bass instrument in that grouping is clearly a fretted bass viol as I've pointed out earlier. http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_GFerrari_Saronno_1536_family_deta.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_GFerrari_Saronno_1536_cello-not_deta.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_GFerrari_Saronno_1536_viola_det1.jpg and again, Martin Agricola's 1529 treatise plate documenting a family of large and small 4 string lute-tuned fretted fiddles http://www.thecipher.com/agricola_4string-lute-fiddles2_deta.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/agricola_4string-lute-fiddles1_deta.jpg here's an instrument you've probably seen before, who dating is vague, and had previously been catalogued as a _plucked_ vihuela, but I believe it's actually a bowed vihuela/viola (note the position of the right arm and hand, out in the air, it should have a bow, I think. Also note the S holes, not unheard of but certainly rare for a plucker), Toledo Cathedral stone carving. It's peg-box is the only thing that throws me, looks late, rectangular, etc. http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar-ToledoCath14th-15th_LRG-det.jpg The shape and size of this instrument is very close to those small "Sforza" arm-viols, amoung others. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 > > La Virgen con el Niño y San Juanito > http://www.flg.es/HTML/Obras_8/VirgenconNioSanJuanitoyangelesmusicos_8398.ht > m#EstudiosAux make sure you catch that trailing "m" for .htm Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:05 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 > To celebrate the forthcoming 425 years anniversary of the Belchior Dias > vihuela (1581) ... ;) > here is my translation of the Regimento dos Violeiros 1572: > www.vihuelademano.com/regimento.htm > > A couple of sentences from this document were (and still are) quoted from > time to time in books, articles and on the web but not much of the rest. I > think I now understand why ... So any comments and suggestions are greatly > welcome. > Thanks Alexander. I'm not up to date on all the details of your researches, nor which particular things you're wanting to point out that are new, interesting, curious, validating of some observation or argument, or perhaps revealing something contrary to commonly held assumptions and beliefs, etc. So could you please elaborate a little more for me on what you mean when you say "I think I now understand why". Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
- Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:25 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 > ''to string the viola with a set of strings appropriate to its size'' - > further evidence for vihuelas of different sizes. Speaking of different sizes, I just got this picture yesterday. Extremely small bodied vihuela with rather wide neck. Anonymous Spanish painting, sadly dated no better than simply "16th century". La Virgen con el Niño y San Juanito http://www.flg.es/HTML/Obras_8/VirgenconNioSanJuanitoyangelesmusicos_8398.ht m#EstudiosAux Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
''to string the viola with a set of strings appropriate to its size'' - further evidence for vihuelas of different sizes. Good work, Alexander. I'll leave the finer organological points to luthiers. Rob -Original Message- From: Alexander Batov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 September 2006 5:06 PM To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Regimento dos Violeiros 1572 To celebrate the forthcoming 425 years anniversary of the Belchior Dias vihuela (1581) ... ;) here is my translation of the Regimento dos Violeiros 1572: www.vihuelademano.com/regimento.htm A couple of sentences from this document were (and still are) quoted from time to time in books, articles and on the web but not much of the rest. I think I now understand why ... So any comments and suggestions are greatly welcome. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Regimento dos Violeiros 1572
To celebrate the forthcoming 425 years anniversary of the Belchior Dias vihuela (1581) ... ;) here is my translation of the Regimento dos Violeiros 1572: www.vihuelademano.com/regimento.htm A couple of sentences from this document were (and still are) quoted from time to time in books, articles and on the web but not much of the rest. I think I now understand why ... So any comments and suggestions are greatly welcome. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
