[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Mjos & Larson]

The Piva which is definitely for a high 5th, The Colascione could  
work for low or high 5th course. The Arpeggiata a low 5th would be best.


The Arpeggiata is such a well-loved piece among theorbo players (I  
enjoyed it when I played theorbo, anyway) that I thought it would be  
fun to try to arrange it.


Given that there are so many compromises taken, I almost think of as  
an etude and ear stretcher and a way to visit an old friend (and,  
though I don't mean to be disrespectful, the piece is a bit bruised  
in the end!). I felt I should try to push it into B with your comment  
about the keys of the Foscarini pieces.


This is much easier on theorbo! I play through it at a very relaxed  
tempo. I can play all of the stretches, though I am sometimes  
resorting to half-bars, and in one place a bar across 3 strings with  
my fourth finger. I imagine a BB DD tuning would certainly make it a  
bit more theorbo-like. In my arrangements the first note is always  
the bass, but sometimes in order to squeeze in one more note to a  
chord I have pulled in a high octave note on the 5th course.


You would enjoy hearing it on theorbo. I think there is an  
interesting ebb and flow of harmonic tension and color (not so much  
melodic) that creates the opportunities for giving the piece  
"direction" (not quite sure if that the best word, but I can't think  
of another) through dynamics and timing.


Feel free to change the plucking order. I'm already seeing some  
places I might change.


There are a number of nice chromatic pieces (or sections of pieces)  
originally for guitar that are fun to play. The opening of the  
Prelude in A minor from the Murcia Saldivar Codex comes to mind.


-- Rocky



On Aug 18, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:




Wow! I've been looking at Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf. I don't know  
this music and I'm really surprised at all the harmonies. (I don't  
know anything about this but I thought that continuo at this time  
was mostly major chords, minor chords, 6-3s and  4-3s).


I've just looked at the first two (the two versions of the one  
piece)  and they are quite a bit too difficult for me. Do you play  
them? Also I've got my two lower courses (in the alternative  
tuning) bB dD and I think you'd really need BB DD. Were you  
thinking of all the notes on the lower courses as unambiguously  
low? Even with a rock solid right hand technique on those arpeggios  
it must be quite difficult to give these pieces direction?



I enjoyed the video of Antonello Lixi.

Stuart




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[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Stuart Walsh]

Mjos & Larson wrote:
I also think of scordatura less as playing in another key (although 
that may well be in a composer's mind given the idea of keys and 
emotions: see http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm 
  for example), but 
that it creates interesting and different sonorities, interval 
possibilities, and fingerings.


Recently I stumbled across this video of Antonello Lixi 
performing Kapsberger's Toccata arpeggia:

http://weblogs.clarin.com/guitarras-del-mundo/archives/2007/10/antonello_lixi_y_su_guitarra_barroca.html

I began to transcribe his arrangement, then decided just to transcribe 
K's original and arrange it myself. An altered tuning seemed necessary 
to come even close to following the original pitches. Stuart's 
"Foscarini" tuning led me to try it (twice). I also tried a version 
with the fifth course lowered a half step. The results 
(Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf) can be downloaded from my Ning page:

http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos

Monica's research has given even more possibilities! Thank you! (Meant 
both sarcastically and sincerely)


-- Rocky

Wow! I've been looking at Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf. I don't know this 
music and I'm really surprised at all the harmonies. (I don't know 
anything about this but I thought that continuo at this time was mostly 
major chords, minor chords, 6-3s and  4-3s).


I've just looked at the first two (the two versions of the one piece)  
and they are quite a bit too difficult for me. Do you play them? Also 
I've got my two lower courses (in the alternative tuning) bB dD and I 
think you'd really need BB DD. Were you thinking of all the notes on the 
lower courses as unambiguously low? Even with a rock solid right hand 
technique on those arpeggios it must be quite difficult to give these 
pieces direction?



I enjoyed the video of Antonello Lixi.

Stuart



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[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Monica Hall]

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and 
campanella!




I meant that there is a lot more - but I haven't posted it yet! I've now 
put dates on the entries and I will indicate changes to earlier posts by 
writing in red.  All the tunings you give below (and in the later email) 
are very interesting indeed. Including some chordal tunings too.


Jolly good - let us know when you post them.


Might it be an idea to have page on your website about them?


Not sure I've got time for that at the moment.
Do you mind
if I quote some of them on my Foscarini blog (with all acknowledgement to 
you, of course)?


Feel free to quote anything you like.

I actually found I had done an analysis of Campion's scordatura pieces - but 
I'll have to send these separately to you as an attachment because the 
tabulation goes funny if I cut and paste it into and E-mail.


(The painting you mention with the kids and the English guitar is the one 
I uploaded a while ago but I didn't know where it actually was.)


They are rather cute aren't they.   I'm not sure how they were related to 
Walpole.


Monica



Stuart







The nice thing about the Internet is that

it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.


Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating that I have just 
spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and Granata which 
are as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission




Corbetta 1643  443   3

 a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

 a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34  D minor

  a  d fa   d



p.863   3-   4 3  A major

  a  c#  eac#



p.88343 3- F major

 ac   f a  c



p.933   4 4  4

 ac# f#   b   e



p.954   3 3- 4

 ad f#a   d D major



They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic compass on the 
whole.


I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to Foscarini's. 
On

the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why guitarists
wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked instruments
typically do.


I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his scordaturae are 
similar to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me because 
they are so difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it 
enables one to use more open course but also simplifies the left-hand 
fingering.  In Foscarini a lot of the chords consist just of a barre 
across all five courses.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere
though.


I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is inteested.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. Foscarini 
is

writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at
his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend could 
he?


Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as far as we 
know) but things have usually been round a while before anyone gets to 
printing them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I haven't 
seen and at least one of them has mixed chords with lute style 
counterpoint.   There are no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but by 
1643 they begin to be a feature.


They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been used by 
lutenists earlier.


Monica


- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them.
My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm wanting 
to

build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', 
Russian

guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No p

[VIHUELA] Re: Search for Scottish pieces

[Rob MacKillop]

   They might be Irish, considering the Gallot d'Irlande connection, but I
   would like a look at them if you have them...

   Rob
   2008/8/18 Mjos & Larson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 Are any of the miscellaneous pieces in the De Gallot manuscript
 Scottish?
 I'm thinking of Lachimagry (sp? f. 106v ?) and Machinaery (sp? 49r
 ?) which are a bit Irishy/Scottish sounding. (Ooh, I hope that
 doesn't offend.) Might there be others in that manuscript?
 -- R

   On Aug 18, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

 I'm looking for baroque guitar pieces with a Scottish connection. I
 have the two pieces in the Princess Anne Lute Book and the Schiller
 manuscript. Speaking of which, can someone give me the full name for
 the Schiller ms?
 Rob MacKillop

 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Stuart Walsh]

Monica Hall wrote:

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and
campanella!

Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There is a lot more (oh 
no!)

...with pictures wherever too.


Well - I couldn't find any more.


I meant that there is a lot more - but I haven't posted it yet! I've now 
put dates on the entries and I will indicate changes to earlier posts by 
writing in red.  All the tunings you give below (and in the later email) 
are very interesting indeed. Including some chordal tunings too.


Might it be an idea to have page on your website about them? Do you mind 
if I quote some of them on my Foscarini blog (with all acknowledgement 
to you, of course)?


(The painting you mention with the kids and the English guitar is the 
one I uploaded a while ago but I didn't know where it actually was.)



Stuart







The nice thing about the Internet is that

it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.


Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating that I have 
just spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and Granata 
which are as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission




Corbetta 1643  443   3

 a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

 a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34  D minor

  a  d fa   d



p.863   3-   4 3  A major

  a  c#  eac#



p.88343 3- F major

 ac   f a  c



p.933   4 4  4

 ac# f#   b   e



p.954   3 3- 4

 ad f#a   d D major



They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic compass on the 
whole.


I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to 
Foscarini's. On

the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why guitarists
wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked instruments
typically do.


I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his scordaturae are 
similar to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me because 
they are so difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it 
enables one to use more open course but also simplifies the left-hand 
fingering.  In Foscarini a lot of the chords consist just of a barre 
across all five courses.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere
though.


I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is inteested.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. 
Foscarini is

writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at
his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend 
could he?


Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as far as we 
know) but things have usually been round a while before anyone gets to 
printing them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I 
haven't seen and at least one of them has mixed chords with lute style 
counterpoint.   There are no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but 
by 1643 they begin to be a feature.


They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been used by 
lutenists earlier.


Monica


- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them.
My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm 
wanting to

build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', 
Russian

guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of it is
quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already: here:

http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Foscarini/

(anyone who's interested in these things will no doubt see where it's
going)

Anyway what I'm after is information about alternative guitar tunings
(for
B

[VIHUELA] Re: Search for Scottish pieces

[Rob MacKillop]

   2008/8/18 Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  Rob,
 Other than these two, the only others which come to mind are in a
 sense all pieces in Corebetta's 1671 book dedicated to the Stuart
 monarch. In particular there's a nice sarabande: La Stuart (f. 71)
 and the preceding Allemande: La Royalle
 Martyn

   Hmm, not particularly Scottish, but a sort of Scottish connection, I
   suppose. Thanks, Martyn.

   Rob

   --

References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[VIHUELA] Re: Search for Scottish pieces

[Monica Hall]

They are not really Scottish unless you regard Charles II as being Scottish.
The pieces are dedicated to individuals at the Restoration court.

La Stuarde probably refers to Francis Teresa Stuart, known as “La Belle
Stuart”, one of the few women that Charles II failed to seduce.  I don't
know if she was Scottish but she  eloped with Duke of Richmond.

Monica



- Original Message - 
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuela" ; "Rob MacKillop"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:20 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Search for Scottish pieces


Rob,

Other than these two, the only others which come to mind are in a sense all
pieces in Corebetta's 1671 book dedicated to the Stuart monarch. In
particular there's a nice sarabande: La Stuart (f. 71) and the preceding
Allemande: La Royalle

Martyn


--- On Mon, 18/8/08, Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Search for Scottish pieces
To: "Vihuela" 
Date: Monday, 18 August, 2008, 2:22 PM
I'm looking for baroque guitar pieces with a Scottish
connection. I
   have the two pieces in the Princess Anne Lute Book and
the Schiller
   manuscript. Speaking of which, can someone give me the
full name for
   the Schiller ms?

   Rob MacKillop

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[VIHUELA] Re: Search for Scottish pieces

[Martyn Hodgson]

 Rob,

Other than these two, the only others which come to mind are in a sense all 
pieces in Corebetta's 1671 book dedicated to the Stuart monarch. In particular 
there's a nice sarabande: La Stuart (f. 71) and the preceding Allemande: La 
Royalle

Martyn


--- On Mon, 18/8/08, Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Search for Scottish pieces
> To: "Vihuela" 
> Date: Monday, 18 August, 2008, 2:22 PM
> I'm looking for baroque guitar pieces with a Scottish
> connection. I
>have the two pieces in the Princess Anne Lute Book and
> the Schiller
>manuscript. Speaking of which, can someone give me the
> full name for
>the Schiller ms?
> 
>Rob MacKillop
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[VIHUELA] Search for Scottish pieces

[Rob MacKillop]

   I'm looking for baroque guitar pieces with a Scottish connection. I
   have the two pieces in the Princess Anne Lute Book and the Schiller
   manuscript. Speaking of which, can someone give me the full name for
   the Schiller ms?

   Rob MacKillop

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html